The general competitive standard: Rules Page 2

Started by Nightofshadow June 19th, 2007 1:31 PM
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  • 143 replies
Matsubara, Japan
Seen October 30th, 2021
Posted January 4th, 2014
3,478 posts
18.6 Years
I usually find people to fight on Japanese forums and such (time zone difference between HK and Japan isn't so bad), so I'm pretty surprised by the rule acceptance difference...

Anyhow seeing how this topic is on discussions on rules, may I ask a few questions?

1. Double Team/Evasion clause - I don't really get the point of this clause. I mean, it renders some Pokemon (like Simple Bibarel with Swagger, Sub, Thunderwave and DT) useless.
Also, isn't stalling and making the opponent tired, thus lowering his ability to think a good psychological tactic?

2. One hit KO clause - Again, I don't get this. While I do understand people don't like "luck-gaming", isn't it the users choice to waste his turn with a move that only hits by 30%?
Also in most circumstances, it's not that hard to tell which Pokemon has the potential to use a OHKO move, thus allowing you to take early action.

Nightofshadow

Just isn't good enough yet....

Seen January 23rd, 2016
Posted May 8th, 2008
226 posts
16 Years
In pokemon there are moves such as lock on and mind reader which make your attacks not miss. Combo'ed in with ohKO's It because a pain because now they WILL not miss their attack on the next turn. In other words, No not fair and isnt allowed.

Double team can be VERY annoying but that isnt the only reason people do not like it. Could you imagine a fully double team'd skarmory with its insane amounts of defense? Just throwing spikes all day while his opponents misses the majority of his attacks? Better yet, How about a double team'd scizor or blissey. VERY huge pain in the butt to deal with
Leader of The "Clan"
And Yes, Nightofshadow IS a female, So stop asking!
Matsubara, Japan
Seen October 30th, 2021
Posted January 4th, 2014
3,478 posts
18.6 Years
Thanks for the quick reply.
However, there are still points I'd like to ask.
In pokemon there are moves such as lock on and mind reader which make your attacks not miss. Combo'ed in with ohKO's It because a pain because now they WILL not miss their attack on the next turn. In other words, No not fair and isnt allowed.
Isn't the only Pokemon that can use OHKO+100% hit moves Smeargle? I know Articuno can, but I don't see them a lot in battle.
I think Poliwrath could in GSC, but that was generations ago.

As for the point on DT, I finally understand why it's hated so much.
I guess the biggest contributer is the popularity of level 100 matches on English forums when compared to Japanese ones.

Nightofshadow

Just isn't good enough yet....

Seen January 23rd, 2016
Posted May 8th, 2008
226 posts
16 Years
Yeah, There arent many pokemon that have the OHKO and "lock on type" ability/move in their movesets. I agree with that but it still isnt worth allowing because if it was allowed, Honestly i would use it every chance i had =P
Leader of The "Clan"
And Yes, Nightofshadow IS a female, So stop asking!
Age 34
Seen October 22nd, 2013
Posted October 20th, 2013
629 posts
16 Years
Well the Double Team thing is still a battle tactic regardless. Sure I know its a pain in the butt but in my honest opinion it should be allowed to a certain degree.

The other side to this is you have 6 turns to eliminate the Pokemon before they have maxxed out on Double Team. But hey if i could rewrite the clause it would be something along the lines that only one Pokemon can know Double Team.


Kevin, 0301 6272 9844
Age 35
Kansas
Seen May 22nd, 2011
Posted April 19th, 2010
304 posts
16.5 Years
I think the most frustrating thing about Double Team is that any Pokemon can learn it, and potentially after one use it's possible to evade your way to a full six uses (growing more likely with each successful DT). Combined with a recovery move or even Rest, it really changes the game.

OHKO moves seem fine to me...they seem like a nice way to balance some of the tanking, though that's not as big of an issue anymore. Netbattle isn't particularly a standard either, but they removed the clause for their Advance client.

But I think the point of the thread is to inform people of the clauses that are out there, fair or not. So maybe a OHKO or Double Team clause isn't fair, but they should still know what it is~
Age 34
Trumbull, CT
Seen August 7th, 2008
Posted June 7th, 2008
3 posts
16 Years
Doulbe team is basically a broken move. The most serious situation is this: Double Team Umbreon. The thing already has monster defenses, and DT makes it worse. A simple set of DT/Protect/Wish/Baton Pass will destroy teams. Imagine passing 6 DTs to a Belly Drum Charizard or a Focus Puncher like Breloom, who can sleep your counter. Yes there are moves that have perfect accuracy, such as swift, but these moves are weak and can hardly ent things like Skarmory and Umby.

And as for OHKO, it stands to reason that while often these teams won't work out, they do have the chance to completely win a battle by pure luck against someone is would typically be their superior. Also, imagine a team of Spore/Lock-on/Sub/SheerCold Smeargles. Unfair imo. Also for kicks, imagine that Smargle having 6 DTs passed to it by an Umbreon.

And that, people, is why those clauses exist.

And Netbattle generally is the standard. While the DT/OHKO clauses are not built in automatically, the majority of the servers have them implemented, along with ones that prevent hax item use.

Arkarian

Utterly Damaged Particle

Maryland
Seen February 4th, 2008
Posted July 2nd, 2007
10 posts
15.9 Years
I agree that OHKO should not be allowed, as it could let a crappy player win on luck alone. Also, there's stuff like Wide Lens and moves to raise your accuracy (besides Lock-On).

I've always stood with the opinion that DT should be allowed. I don't use it, because I don't think it's a particularly great strategy these days, but it's still a strategy nonetheless and therefore should be permitted.
Ark.

Pokémon Pearl
Trainer name: Isabel
Friend Code: 4253 0279 4466

I will only battle under the following rules: no ubers/legendaries, item clause, no OHKO, no hacked anything. Sinnoh Dex-only teams are preferred, but not necessary.
Age 34
Seen October 22nd, 2013
Posted October 20th, 2013
629 posts
16 Years
Here is just a thought. If you allowed BT Pokemon and OHKO Pokemon wouldnt it balance out the game?

Sure they can DT to thier hearts delight but what about a Pokemon like Smeargle who uses Lock On then Sheer Colds you to death. In my opinion they balance each other out. ^_^


Kevin, 0301 6272 9844
Age 38
Kentucky
Seen July 19th, 2007
Posted June 26th, 2007
37 posts
16.4 Years
Yea I dont understand why DT/MM is so bad? Isnt that what, Shock Wave, Faint Attack, Aerial Ace, etc are for? The whole point to tactics is to use trumping moves. Theres ways around everything. Theres always Haze. That will deplete all the uped evasiveness. I just dont get it.

I can see the one hit KO moves. With Machop/choke/champs new ability. All moves have 100% acuracy while hes on the field. So yea unfair. Would wipe you away quickly. Just the DT/MM attacks. Doesnt make sence.

Everly
Diamond Version Friend Code = 1676-0315-8630
Name is Chris.
Age 34
Trumbull, CT
Seen August 7th, 2008
Posted June 7th, 2008
3 posts
16 Years
Doulbe team is basically a broken move. The most serious situation is this: Double Team Umbreon. The thing already has monster defenses, and DT makes it worse. A simple set of DT/Protect/Wish/Baton Pass will destroy teams. Imagine passing 6 DTs to a Belly Drum Charizard or a Focus Puncher like Breloom, who can sleep your counter. Yes there are moves that have perfect accuracy, such as swift, but these moves are weak and can hardly dent things like Skarmory and Umby.

And as for OHKO, it stands to reason that while often these teams won't work out, they do have the chance to completely win a battle by pure luck against someone is would typically be their superior. Also, imagine a team of Spore/Lock-on/Sub/SheerCold Smeargles. Unfair imo. Also for kicks, imagine that Smargle having 6 DTs passed to it by an Umbreon.

And that, people, is why those clauses exist.

And Netbattle generally is the standard. While the DT/OHKO clauses are not built in automatically, the majority of the servers have them implemented, along with ones that prevent hax item use.

Also note that a mind reader/sheercold combo will not necessarily beat a DT'er. Sure the ohko move will have perfect acc, but Mind Reader/Lock-on will not. So you have to first hit with that before you can use the OHKO.

Nightofshadow

Just isn't good enough yet....

Seen January 23rd, 2016
Posted May 8th, 2008
226 posts
16 Years
Yea I dont understand why DT/MM is so bad? Isnt that what, Shock Wave, Faint Attack, Aerial Ace, etc are for? The whole point to tactics is to use trumping moves. Theres ways around everything. Theres always Haze. That will deplete all the uped evasiveness. I just dont get it.

I can see the one hit KO moves. With Machop/choke/champs new ability. All moves have 100% acuracy while hes on the field. So yea unfair. Would wipe you away quickly. Just the DT/MM attacks. Doesnt make sence.

Everly
The only one of those moves that you mentioned that is even used is aerial ace. Thats it. And who would use it if the pokemon obviously has better options? This might sound offensive, But to those who play "for fun" Of course its going to seem unfair. But in a tournament/competitive environment its a whole different ball game.
Leader of The "Clan"
And Yes, Nightofshadow IS a female, So stop asking!

Arkarian

Utterly Damaged Particle

Maryland
Seen February 4th, 2008
Posted July 2nd, 2007
10 posts
15.9 Years
I actually do use Shock Wave on one of my Pokémon for one specific reason, and that's not for its accuracy. But that's beside the point.

Aerial Ace does poor damage, but that doesn't mean it can't take out a Skarmory if you're using a lasting Pokémon that Swords Dances a few times. It's all about strategy: for example, while a Skarmory is using Double Team, switch out to a Scyther with the Technician ability (X1.5 for attacks of 60 BD or less) that knows Substitute, Swords Dance, and Aerial Ace. Use Subs, SD a few times, then unleash Aerial Ace for the STAB on top of Technician on top of the SDs. The damage given is huge, and since Scyther's so fast he can take down multiple Pokes with this technique. Give him X-Scissor and he's an all-around good Sweeper than can be used in a variety of situations, not just against DTers.

In fact, I might just go raise one now.
Ark.

Pokémon Pearl
Trainer name: Isabel
Friend Code: 4253 0279 4466

I will only battle under the following rules: no ubers/legendaries, item clause, no OHKO, no hacked anything. Sinnoh Dex-only teams are preferred, but not necessary.
?
Seen January 16th, 2013
Posted May 20th, 2010
1,804 posts
16 Years
I actually do use Shock Wave on one of my Pokémon for one specific reason, and that's not for its accuracy. But that's beside the point.

Aerial Ace does poor damage, but that doesn't mean it can't take out a Skarmory if you're using a lasting Pokémon that Swords Dances a few times. It's all about strategy: for example, while a Skarmory is using Double Team, switch out to a Scyther with the Technician ability (X1.5 for attacks of 60 BD or less) that knows Substitute, Swords Dance, and Aerial Ace. Use Subs, SD a few times, then unleash Aerial Ace for the STAB on top of Technician on top of the SDs. The damage given is huge, and since Scyther's so fast he can take down multiple Pokes with this technique. Give him X-Scissor and he's an all-around good Sweeper than can be used in a variety of situations, not just against DTers.

In fact, I might just go raise one now.
exactly, common moves that people use like aerial ace, and shock wave will easily break the DT tactic
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?
Seen January 16th, 2013
Posted May 20th, 2010
1,804 posts
16 Years
Some Pokemon really do need DT. Like Ninjasks sole purpose is to Baton Pass DT and a speed boost.
yeah ninjask can pass it 2 shedinja

shedinja is nasty w/ dt... with its toxic move
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Nightofshadow

Just isn't good enough yet....

Seen January 23rd, 2016
Posted May 8th, 2008
226 posts
16 Years
Shedinja is pretty much irrelevant with all of the sand/hail flying around. Not to mention Spikes, Stealth Rock, and Toxic Spikes.
Agreed, You really know your stuff... Pretty impressive.
Leader of The "Clan"
And Yes, Nightofshadow IS a female, So stop asking!
Age 34
Trumbull, CT
Seen August 7th, 2008
Posted June 7th, 2008
3 posts
16 Years
Agreed, You really know your stuff... Pretty impressive.
At least someone here does... >_>

Anyway, Shock Wave 'Zam is stupid. What a waste of a moveset. And what if the DT'd pokemon is Blissey? You're screwed then. Likewise with DD Salamence and Aerial Ace. DT Skarmory walls you, spikes in your face, and laugh at the damage, insulting you further with a whirlwind.

And at another poster, Ninjask is 99% of the time used to pass Speed and Attack, not evasion.

Nightofshadow

Just isn't good enough yet....

Seen January 23rd, 2016
Posted May 8th, 2008
226 posts
16 Years
At least someone here does... >_>

Anyway, Shock Wave 'Zam is stupid. What a waste of a moveset. And what if the DT'd pokemon is Blissey? You're screwed then. Likewise with DD Salamence and Aerial Ace. DT Skarmory walls you, spikes in your face, and laugh at the damage, insulting you further with a whirlwind.

And at another poster, Ninjask is 99% of the time used to pass Speed and Attack, not evasion.
HEY! I know what I'm talking about!!!
Leader of The "Clan"
And Yes, Nightofshadow IS a female, So stop asking!