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Old January 13th, 2008 (9:18 AM). Edited January 13th, 2008 by Dark Azelf.
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After all this arguement on Gliscor, why did we put Weezing in here? Gliscor is a much more superior wall than Weezing will ever be, IMO.

& I also don't remember ever settling for Nite.
Weezing Hazes which Gliscor cannot do and still beats heracross.

We decided on nite as we needed a sweeper for late game, you know Dragon Dance up, Heracross and infernape added to weaknesses so we dropped ape for Nite.
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Old January 13th, 2008 (9:34 AM).
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Sims, weezing is a good wall with a fighting and EQ resist. It is also a more versatile attacker than Gliscor. The best thing is no 4x weak to ice. Gliscor is superior, but not by much, and Weezing might help our cause more.
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Old January 13th, 2008 (9:36 AM).
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I don't know... But i really prefer nape over heracross. yes he can't switch in but when he does on forestress and the oh so common SkarmBliss, he nastyplots (if he's special) and sweeps a good deal of pokes. I think you chose this guy as skarmbliss counter; even if he's ugly it's an awesome poke with great sweeping power.
I personnally think weezing is the superior choice over Gliscor (well for this team)
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Old January 13th, 2008 (9:40 AM).
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If we were to drop anyone, it should have been Hera, since Nape is more versitile. Everyone on this thread is too quick to settle without thinking in the long run, which leads to major backtracking. If we have to SETTLE for something, there is a problem.
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Old January 13th, 2008 (9:42 AM).
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Exactly sims, nape is a lot better than heracross
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Old January 13th, 2008 (9:46 AM).
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No, that is overkill. He is NOT better than Hera, just that I feel he won't do much for this team.
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Old January 13th, 2008 (9:49 AM).
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well hmm, what aout the weezing/gliscor debate?
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Old January 13th, 2008 (10:02 AM).
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I disagree Infernape is better for this team. Starmie can't switch into things very well, as it is fragile and has many weaknesses. Infernape only adds to this problem. We need something like Salamence or Dragonite that can switch into things generally easily.

If we can't bring in our sweepers, they'll just outstall our walls and set up on us. Heracross has some handy resists and nice SDef, and can beat Skarmbliss too (CBcross for the 2HKO on Skarmory).

Infernape is overrated-it doesan't have the power of pure special and physical sweepers, isn't as fast as a few of them, and the worst part being if it gets hit, it dies...it's as simple as that (unless it's a leech life from Zubat maybe).

So...

Starmie
Blissey
Weezing
Heracross

is what we have...needs some mixed walling IMO and then a special sweeper. I like the sound of a choice specs Salamence.
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Old January 13th, 2008 (10:13 AM).
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Simple as that? Excuse me? I'm getting fustrated again, to the point where I'm biting my tounge to prevent cursing out loud (again).

He's not meant to have the pure power of SP/Physical sweepers. That's why it's mixed.

First off, if we need a REAL sweeper, we need to think outside of Hera. I say Weavile, if it had more power. I also have little problems with a Swords Dancing Chomp, as Hera can be easily countered by Forry, meaning a switch, leading to Spikes (or worse, Stealth Rock) being launched at us. Starmie or another spinner can be predicted, leading to some problems on our part.

I speak from actual experience, not just what I read on paper. I dare the next person to try & undermine that, as I am getting too pissed for words.
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Old January 13th, 2008 (11:03 AM).
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Simple as that? Excuse me? I'm getting fustrated again, to the point where I'm biting my tounge to prevent cursing out loud (again).

I'm not trying to offend anyone here. All I said was that infernape dies if it gets hit by even a moderately strong attack...that's it...I wasn't saying my opinion was better, I was only stating it-nothing more.

He's not meant to have the pure power of SP/Physical sweepers. That's why it's mixed.

I don't see why this team needs a mixed sweeper though.

First off, if we need a REAL sweeper, we need to think outside of Hera.

How is Heracross not a real sweeper?

I say Weavile, if it had more power. I also have little problems with a Swords Dancing Chomp, as Hera can be easily countered by Forry, meaning a switch, leading to Spikes (or worse, Stealth Rock) being launched at us. Starmie or another spinner can be predicted, leading to some problems on our part.

You could say that about any spinner. Sure it's predictable, but only ghosts can stop it, and Starmie will 2HKO Gengar before it can kill it. SR doesn't hurt all too bad anyways.

I speak from actual experience, not just what I read on paper. I dare the next person to try & undermine that, as I am getting too pissed for words.

Really, I'm not trying to undermine anybody. I just disagree that Infernape would be good for this team.

And I ONLY speak from experience...I've used Infernape...it isn't that good. Hits a few things...dies...and that's really all I got out of it.
I don't think anybody is trying to undermine you sims, you're one of our best battlers. Calm...

Heracross is a great sweeper. I think it would be great for this team-it can switch in with decent skill and threatens things immediately. It's one of the hardest sweepers in the game to counter, especially the CB variant.
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Old January 13th, 2008 (12:56 PM).
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You don't understand why I'm so angry.

First, when I said real sweeper, I meant a whole sweeper, not one who needs some sort of frills to do decent damage. Hera is one, as is Chomp, Meta, etc. They don't need to charge to do real damage, as is why I said Chomp.

I truly believe that a mixed sweeper will be of most benifit, as it cuts the need to switch.

When I say experience, I mean on wi-fi, where you have less control in breeding, & where the enviorment is totally different. I don't take shoddy into consideration much. While battling Nicole, my Gya got KOed. No prob. Then, when I sent out Flygon, her Mence took it out as if I swapped pokes. I didn't switch Gya for Gon, I replaced it. So why did it attack as if I switched, & he got a free hit? Even Lady thought that was fishy. Hence why I don't trust shoddy.

As for my example, you just plum missed the point by a mile & a half. Hera is countered with little effort by Forry. Hera must switch or get walled. Leading to all those things I said. Basically, we could fall into the trap of prediction, which is a simple trrap to fall into with Hera.

Now, a Sleep Talk Hera is annoying, but not one that's banded or scarf. I keep having nightmares of Hera stuck on Sleep Talk, just to wake up.

Hence why I say Chomp with Fire Blast. Very little can counter it. Hell, people have trouble switching into my Flygon.
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Old January 13th, 2008 (12:59 PM).
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SIMS OUTPOSTED ME

And guys right now I think we need to look bigger picture here and focus on the team as a whole, not as seperate facters.

OH MY LORD DRAGONITE AGAIN!!!! We said Dragonite when this thread actually wasn;t ovwer run with newbs and had class, which was AGES ago. No offense people whop don't know what you;re talking about, go home. Just leave the thread, view, don't post.

And I already said mixwed wall, we could go Dusknoir. He's fairly reliable. Cresselia would be optimal. SO since Im very confused the team is

Starmie
Weezing/Gliscor
Blissey
Dragonite/Heracross

And nothing else? Hmmm, Mixed Electivire anyone?

AND EVERYONE CALM DOWN! We can talk about this without getting heated. That or the person with the least warnings tells the newbs to go home.

Mixed Electivire is a bigger threat than physical by a long shot, Flamethrower adds in a whole new factor, Bronzong and Forretress can't laugh at it and it can hurt a TON of stuff. If we use a mixed sweeper.

A mixed wall looks important to me. Very important. We need something that can switch into well, psychic attacks was one, but that doesn;t look that bad, Alakazam couynter, DUSKNOIR! I say Dusknoir and Mixed Electivire for the last spots.
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Old January 13th, 2008 (1:26 PM).
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I say no to mixed Vire. Since we lack the proper Bolt bait. If not Nape, then I still vote for Chain Chomp, or whichever includes Flamethrower.

Dusknoir. Hm. Interesting.

If I here "Calm down" again, I swear.
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Old January 13th, 2008 (1:30 PM).
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Forretress almost never carries rest, and it can't take repeated abuse from Heracross at all.

Close Combat 2HKOs with CB variants, just like Skarm (or so I've been told). Even if it doesn't, you switch, bring it in again...only the extra Damage Forry has taken will take its toll and even Scarf variants will threaten to kill it.

Forry with rest beats Scarfcross, but any Forry without it can only take so many close combats before folding into oblivion.

Heracross is really difficult to counter, and its STAB moves are a pain. Literally. If we use Heracross, I say we go CB (unless we have another CBer), and most Counters will meet their doom (like Forretress).

Stat-up sweepers generally aren't as good as the head-on attacking ones to be honest, at least this generation. Notice all the good stat-uppers (Raikou, Zam, Suicune, SDers in general) have lost at least some power. DDers are the exception here though, they actually got better.

Honestly, mixed sweepers have to switch even more than Physical/special sweepers. They don't hit nearly as hard from either side of the spectrum, so more things can switch in and counter them. Look at mixed flygon for example. That thing can attack fairly well special and physical-wise, but walls and tanks like Milotic, Swampert, and Cresselia just will straight-up laugh.

They are much more dangerous to teams with two walls (namely SkarmBliss), but to better-prepared teams on the defensive end, they are much weaker.

EDIT: I'm with sims, no Mixed Vire >:0 Remember, we're just trying to keep order in the thread :)

I love the idea of Chain Chomp.
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Old January 13th, 2008 (1:30 PM).
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I was mostly yelling at myself so I didnt scream at the newbs to go hide in holes. Don;t quote me on that.

And Dusknoir actually seems to fit this team well.
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Old January 13th, 2008 (1:40 PM).
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Really? Trust me. As a Rest using Forry, I can beat almost any Hera.

I'll say it again. I don't know how it is in shoddy, but I've seen plenty of Resting Forry's on wifi. Specifically Smogon, though that's pretty moot. That & Dark Azelf is what gave me the idea, & he is my prime Hera Blocker .I've battled plenty of Banded Hera, & it takes years to bust through it. As I just recharge with Rest.

Are you kidding me? My Flygon tears through most of those pokes you've mentioned, that was a messed-up example. Especially Cressila, with U-Turn.

Hera is also pretty much walled by Gya, but that's not saying much, since everyone is walled by something. But it shows that it's not that hard to wall, especially due to the fact that he has been out longer.

We do need to consider Dusknoir.

& I will quote you in my sig. That goes on the top ten best quotes of 2008. Right after "The first thing I said after playing PBR...I want my 44 dollars back".

As for the reason I am so pissed, & will not hesitate to bark at the next one to annoy me is because it seems many people take shoddy experience over actual wifi experience. That's the whole reason Iceman "claimed" to leave battling-because how flawwed it can be.
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Old January 13th, 2008 (1:45 PM).
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Well there seem to be less newbs on Shoddy, and more around WiFi areas, but I personally have a lot of both, and Shoddy is just easier because I DONT HAVE TO BREED!!!

Now back on topic if we need something to counter Heracross I say we use Gliscor. People said Weezing, and I rolled with it, but Gliscor makes more sense to me. With Aerial Ace, I was with Anti-Pop a while back.
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Old January 13th, 2008 (2:00 PM).
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Really? Trust me. As a Rest using Forry, I can beat almost any Hera.

Rest Forry will almost always beat it, I'm thinking more of the non-rest Forrys that get blown apart. I'm not sure, but I think CBcross will 2HKO (or so I've been told)

I'll say it again. I don't know how it is in shoddy, but I've seen plenty of Resting Forry's on wifi. Specifically Smogon, though that's pretty moot. That & Dark Azelf is what gave me the idea, & he is my prime Hera Blocker .I've battled plenty of Banded Hera, & it takes years to bust through it. As I just recharge with Rest.

Well, Shoddy and WiFi differ a lot...

Are you kidding me? My Flygon tears through most of those pokes you've mentioned, that was a messed-up example. Especially Cressila, with U-Turn.

I've never seen a U-Turning mixed flygon before. Cresselia can get up Refelct though and lonely and a few Atk EVs won't really hurt that bad. Any bulky water smashed a mixed Flygon though, while a CBed flygon's Earthquake will kill a Milotic in 2 hits, and Fire Punch can even hurt the likes of Bronzong.

Hera is also pretty much walled by Gya, but that's not saying much, since everyone is walled by something. But it shows that it's not that hard to wall, especially due to the fact that he has been out longer.

Since Gyara is usually a lead, it's pretty easy to predict the switch and stone edge it. Any Gyara that doesn't lead or that you don't know about can do this, but it's an easy prediction. I see your point though. Still, Heracross (in the hands of a player who is an expert predict-er) can ravage teams that lack a really good counter. Remember, if forry takes even a little damage (especially the lousy shed shell variants), Close Combat from CB will 2HKO. On a Forretress. That's saying something.

However, I do agree with you that, if you can outpredict the user of Hera, its power is nullified greatly, almost to the point where it's useless.


We do need to consider Dusknoir.

Indeed.

& I will quote you in my sig. That goes on the top ten best quotes of 2008. Right after "The first thing I said after playing PBR...I want my 44 dollars back".

:)

As for the reason I am so pissed, & will not hesitate to bark at the next one to annoy me is because it seems many people take shoddy experience over actual wifi experience. That's the whole reason Iceman "claimed" to leave battling-because how flawwed it can be.

Shoddy is very flawed, especially the way it haxes people and crap. Still, the metagame remains somewhat the same (only more legends since they can be obtained easier). Really, it's the same thing though as far as the overall battling aspect goes though. It's the D/P metagame for both, plain and simple (though there are noticeable differences, it is for the most part the same.)
If you can outpredict heracross, it's the easiest countered pokemon...seriously. If you can't, you're about screwed (unless you have a really solid counter like Weezing).

But yeah, Dusknoir sounds like a good idea (and it and Bliss cover each other's weaks well.)

Weezing really is good though. We need a hazer, might as well use that. EDIT: Gliscor is better overall though, but no 4x ice weak = epic win.
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Old January 13th, 2008 (2:06 PM).
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Ok well I think Dusknoir seems to fit the team well, now if sims and dark azelf say ok we could have a majority.

Dusknoir-Leftovers
Evs and crap
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Pani Split
Shadow Sneak
FIre Punch
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Old January 13th, 2008 (2:08 PM).
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Just pointing out that with Noir we get massacred by Weavile, we're going to need a Weezing over Gliscor FOR SURE. (Or we can use Gross as a physical sweeper.) Gliscor gets owned by ice punch, which is why we need weezing with flamethrower to torch it and Heracross.
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Old January 13th, 2008 (2:13 PM).
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That makes sense, and Dusknoir eats Psychics up and Shdow Sneaks them back.
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Old January 13th, 2008 (3:56 PM).
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I say sure.

On a sidenote...

I would love to see another role, such as Baton Passing made in. Like Vaporeon. Sure, she's not as pretty as Leafeon, nor is she as good looking, nor is she an awesome grass-type...what was my point?

Oh yeah, it would be great if this team wasn't so...unflexible. We are stretching so much, we don't have room for any optional roles. Each poke here plays a specific role, & it must STAY to that role, get it? There's not much room for creativity.
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Old January 13th, 2008 (4:16 PM).
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First off, if we're discussing Mixed walls, and you're saying Dusknoir, of course I'll be asking why? Spiritomb outwalls it, completely, due to Immunity to Psychic, almost the exact same movepool, access to sucker punch, and no 2x weaknesses.
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Old January 13th, 2008 (5:09 PM).
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First off, if we're discussing Mixed walls, and you're saying Dusknoir, of course I'll be asking why? Spiritomb outwalls it, completely, due to Immunity to Psychic, almost the exact same movepool, access to sucker punch, and no 2x weaknesses.
Dusknoir can actually attack. It has a far better movepool as well, and Shadow Sneak is great and more reliable than sucker punch.

I'm actually shocked people like Spiritomb so much when it has no resistances.

Dusknoir can deal with Gyarados and further our destruction of Heracross. I don't really see what Spiritomb would do. Besides, Noir is more sound in its statistical makeup. Better defenses, both have pathetic HP, Noir can attack way better. Blissey takes any psychic attack, seriously. Not to mention Starmie resists as well and recovers off any damage it sustains.

Dusknoir does more for this team anyways IMO. We don't have Zam, Azelf, or Gengar problems anyways. Any Specs Focus blast will be taken by blissey, and then we just switch to Dusknoir to take it...meaning Blissey will be good to go.

Then Noir gets a free WoW on the incoming pokemon.
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Old January 13th, 2008 (5:15 PM). Edited January 13th, 2008 by sims796.
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sims796 sims796 is offline
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I want Dusknoir as well, but I have to step in to say Spirit is far from bad. Yes, it resist fighting, Psychic, & Poison, useless as that is.

But all technecalities aside, saying Spirit is bad is overkill. They resist the same things, & Dusk actually has an added weakness in Dark. Meaning Pursuiters makes it hard to switch, Crunch can give it problems, etc.


But I still say Dusk, for his attacking abilities.
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