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Old January 13th, 2008 (5:21 PM).
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I want Dusknoir as well, but I have to step in to say Spirit is far from bad. Yes, it resist fighting, Psychic, & Poison, useless as that is.

But all technecalities aside, saying Spirit is bad is overkill. They resist the same things, & Dusk actually has an added weakness in Dark. Meaning Pursuiters makes it hard to switch, Crunch can give it problems, etc.

But I still say Dusk, for his attacking abilities.
No no, spiritomb isn't bad, but it IS bad by comparison to top-tier walls. BTW, those are immunities, not resistances ;) Noir has the same ones except psychic, which isn't needed as stated above.

Spiritomb is actually quite an annoying little pest, but it can't take the hits other pokemon can.

They both have good abilities though. Pressure FTW
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Old January 13th, 2008 (5:26 PM).
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Immunities, resistances, what's the difference? Heck, I'd rather have an Electric immunity than an Electric resistances.

Plus, while shadow Sneak is much less situational, it also has (with STAB) a measilly base power of 60. Not exactly something to tell mommy about. When my Gya fights Noir without Thunderpunch, it's a free charge up. Sucker Punch, however, has (with STAB) a base power of 120. Much more satisfyng. Still, I have outpredicted many Sucker Punches, in order to charge, or worst, cast sleep/Reflect. Plus, Shadow Sneak is that last minute kill on a weakend poke. Whatever you think is best.
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Old January 13th, 2008 (5:29 PM).
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Immunities, resistances, what's the difference? Heck, I'd rather have an Electric immunity than an Electric resistances.

Plus, while shadow Sneak is much less situational, it also has (with STAB) a measilly base power of 60. Not exactly something to tell mommy about. When my Gya fights Noir without Thunderpunch, it's a free charge up. Sucker Punch, however, has (with STAB) a base power of 120. Much more satisfyng. Still, I have outpredicted many Sucker Punches, in order to charge, or worst, cast sleep/Reflect. Plus, Shadow Sneak is that last minute kill on a weakend poke. Whatever you think is best.
Sucker Punch is REALLY easy to predict...

Noir's Shadow Sneak will beat anything weakened (besides Normal types) to the ground. The likes of Gengar and Zam get loled at.

By the thing on resists, I mostly meant that they have the same immunities for the most part, only Dusknoir has resists ON TOP OF the immunities. Probably should have made that more clear.
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Old January 13th, 2008 (5:39 PM).
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Sucker Punch is REALLY easy to predict...

Noir's Shadow Sneak will beat anything weakened (besides Normal types) to the ground. The likes of Gengar and Zam get loled at.

By the thing on resists, I mostly meant that they have the same immunities for the most part, only Dusknoir has resists ON TOP OF the immunities. Probably should have made that more clear.
Nope. They have the exact same resist, but Noir has more weaknesses, and Spirit has more immunities.

I'm sorry, Noir resist bug. Wohoo. Not really worth saying "it has more resist", since Spirit can also boast more immunities.

Plus, even though Sucker Punch is easy to predict, it's not one of those moves that you can really do much. That move is pretty reliable, since most people will opt to ATK right away. Plus, when it hits, it does considerable damage, To those same pokes you mentioned, they will most likely attack straight up, only to get played. As for Sneak, well, I said that, with Gya.

Thing is, Noir also has more Attacking options, like the elemental punches. So it can afford to have a weak Shadow sneak. But NOT as a sole move, which I had too many idiots think that Shadow Sneak can beat Bulkydos. Why do they do that. You frick'n idiots, YOU CANNOT USE WEAK MOVES TO BEAT A BULKY POKE WITH LEFTOVERS!!!!

Huff...sorry. That just eats up at me when they do that.
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Old January 13th, 2008 (6:08 PM).
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Nope. They have the exact same resist, but Noir has more weaknesses, and Spirit has more immunities.

Bug resist is cool to beat Heracross, that makes a difference (especially if Weezing is on its detah bed)...this has saved me countless times.

I'm sorry, Noir resist bug. Wohoo. Not really worth saying "it has more resist", since Spirit can also boast more immunities.

Psychic is a lot less common than bug.

Plus, even though Sucker Punch is easy to predict, it's not one of those moves that you can really do much. That move is pretty reliable, since most people will opt to ATK right away. Plus, when it hits, it does considerable damage, To those same pokes you mentioned, they will most likely attack straight up, only to get played. As for Sneak, well, I said that, with Gya.

I always CM up if I find Spiritomb against my alakazam though. It's just a set-up fodder IMO.

Thing is, Noir also has more Attacking options, like the elemental punches. So it can afford to have a weak Shadow sneak. But NOT as a sole move, which I had too many idiots think that Shadow Sneak can beat Bulkydos. Why do they do that. You frick'n idiots, YOU CANNOT USE WEAK MOVES TO BEAT A BULKY POKE WITH LEFTOVERS!!!!

lol Shadow Sneak beats Bulkydos lol

Huff...sorry. That just eats up at me when they do that.
Bug resist comes in handy a lot, especially since Yanmega has been seeing more popularity (weird O_o)

And Heracross is a PAIN. The Bug resist rocks.

And lol yeah, I've actually ran a Noir with Sneak/Fire/Thunderpunch/Pain Split and it worked quite well...WoW is bait for guts abusers and I wasn't used to the Metagame yet...so it actually worked well as a more offensive approach.

But yeah, Sneak does nothing as an only option, and is asking my Ambipom to set up on you :(
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Old January 13th, 2008 (6:18 PM).
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Ah, but that's the thing. Spirit won't take much damage from Megahorn anyway. I meant to say that Noir gets Hera resistance, but still. Don't undermine sucker Punch. It's not like Gya, where you KNOW it has DD, & can easily be countered, Spirit's main issues comes with his wide array of status inlictions. Such as Hypnosis. It doesn't take much prediction to pull off Sucker Punch. It makes up for it's flaws with pure power, being twice as strong as Sneak. Plus, it's good on other pokes, like Dugtrio. But lets ignore that arguement, since it's only on Spirit.

I wholeheartedly agree that Noir will do more for this team, but Spirit is the energetic little brother.
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Old January 13th, 2008 (6:40 PM).
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Spiritomb takes a beating from Megahorn when it's STABed from Heracross. It hurts...

Yeah, so we've basically decided on Noir. So now what? lol
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Old January 13th, 2008 (6:49 PM).
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We decide to scrap the entire team, & instead, go with my team, which has no weaknesses. We also call it "Team sims796", after me, sims796.

It was Vainz final wishes before he left. I, uh, got it on a PM.
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Old January 13th, 2008 (7:06 PM).
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Coooourse you did sims. Now back to not having Team Sims and Having Team Midni- I mean Pokecommunity. Right now its

Dusknoir-Wall of the Mixed
Blissey-Wall of the Special
Weezing-Wall of the Physical
Starmie-Spinner of the Bulky Variety
Dragonite/Heracross/Plausible Others-Sweeper of the Physical
And the Mysterious ???

I say we start with a Sweeper of the Physical. Weavile is actually saddening me on Shoddy to face them, ScarfCross would have beaten the crap outta that last one if Stone Edge hadn;t missed twice against a Pokemon that has Pressure!!!! Sorry stil pissed at it. Also, back to Gliscor debate, Aerial Ace FTW. Electivire is just blah. Marowak? Not unless we speed pass to it really. Im going to say Dragonite for last minute sweeping.
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Old January 14th, 2008 (1:42 AM).
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Coooourse you did sims. Now back to not having Team Sims and Having Team Midni- I mean Pokecommunity. Right now its

Dusknoir-Wall of the Mixed
Blissey-Wall of the Special
Weezing-Wall of the Physical
Starmie-Spinner of the Bulky Variety
Dragonite/Heracross/Plausible Others-Sweeper of the Physical
And the Mysterious ???

I say we start with a Sweeper of the Physical. Weavile is actually saddening me on Shoddy to face them, ScarfCross would have beaten the crap outta that last one if Stone Edge hadn;t missed twice against a Pokemon that has Pressure!!!! Sorry stil pissed at it. Also, back to Gliscor debate, Aerial Ace FTW. Electivire is just blah. Marowak? Not unless we speed pass to it really. Im going to say Dragonite for last minute sweeping.
Hmm... I say Metagross. Only two weaknesses is good, a base 135 Attack (I think it's somewhere around there) is great, and it gets Meteor Mash, which works well with Clear Body. Plus, with a ton of resistances, it should be able to switch in on a lot of stuff.
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Old January 14th, 2008 (4:26 AM).
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We're looking for sp.sweepers right now.
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Old January 14th, 2008 (5:08 AM).
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We're looking for sp.sweepers right now.
Oh, I thought you'd do that last, after finally picking a physical sweeper.

Well, the best ones I know of are Porygon-Z, Magnezone, Gengar, and Glaceon. Though, I don't think all four are best used as special sweepers. Two of them at least, though.

Now, we already have Blissey and Dusknoir, so I feel uncomfortable using either Gengar or Porygon-Z here. That leaves Magnezone and Glaceon, unless someone else gets a bright idea.

Glaceon @ Leftovers; Snow Cloak
Modest; 4 HP, 252 Speed, 252 Special Attack
Ice Beam
Hidden Power
Fake Tears
Wish

Magnezone @ Leftovers; Magnet Pull
Modest; 172 HP, 84 Speed, 252 Special Attack
Discharge
Flash Cannon
Hidden Power
Magnet Rise

Hidden Power would be Fighting on Glaceon and Ice on Magnezone.
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Old January 14th, 2008 (6:48 AM).
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Well, the thing you must understand is, well, just because Blissey & Porygon-Z are both normal types, doesn't mean they can't function well together, simply because they fufill totally different roles. Blissey's a sp.wall, Pory's a sp.sweeper. Just because they both have fighting weak, doesn't mean they can't work well. That's what physical walls are for.

As for Gengar, I just plum feel he doesn't have a place. THIS is where type comes in, because two ghosts are redundant. Understand? Type only comes into play with strategy. It would be poor strategy to have two ghost, but not as much to have two normal types that fufill totally different roles, since Pursuit is much more common than I thought.

Even then, Dusk & Gar can funtion together, since they fill two totally different roles. But since the move Pursuit is pretty common, it takes caution.


As for those pokes you put up, they are only few sp.sweepers. Gengar, Alakazam, Pory, Specsmence, Roserade, etc...

That Glaceon set isn't a good Sp.sweeping set, with Ice Beam as it's sole damaging move, & Hidden Power as it's backup, at a measily base 70 at best? With no way of increasing his power, she's not really scaring much. She shouldn't have to rely on Wish-passing, or even status lowering (which is just about forcing a switch) because she's supposed to be sweeping. She should only concentrate in hitting as many things as it can, as hard as it can. Plus, she's an Ice type, which is weak to Stealth Rock. I donl\'t like that in a sweeper.


Magnezone has great SP.ATK, but it's too slow. I like the idea of Skarm trapping, but...too slow for sweeping.


EDIT:On second glance, the biggest issue with those two poke is the pure fact that they are both too slow.

I like Specsmence, but...not two dragons. That's asking for an Ice Beam. Plus, I've always felt one was enough.
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Old January 14th, 2008 (6:52 AM).
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Well, the thing you must understand is, well, just because Blissey & Porygon-Z are both normal types, doesn't mean they can't function well together, simply because they fufill totally different roles. Blissey's a sp.wall, Pory's a sp.sweeper. Just because they both have fighting weak, doesn't mean they can't work well. That's what physical walls are for.

As for Gengar, I just plum feel he doesn't have a place. THIS is where type comes in, because two ghosts are redundant. Understand? Type only comes into play with strategy. It would be poor strategy to have two ghost, but not as much to have two normal types that fufill totally different roles, since Pursuit is much more common than I thought.

I kind of get it. My knowledge of the meta is limited to what I read of your posts and Anti-Pop Culture Warrior 13's posts, since you two seem to know the most about it here, and I refuse to go to Smogon's forums for such knowledge. So, basically, I can use two Pokémon of the same type if both have different roles and don't have a weakness to a very commonly-used attack, right? That's why Gengar wouldn't fit here, but Porygon-Z would (weakness to Pursuit), right?

Even then, Dusk & Gar can funtion together, since they fill two totally different roles. But since the move Pursuit is pretty common, it takes caution.


As for those pokes you put up, they are only few sp.sweepers. Gengar, Alakazam, Pory, Specsmence, Roserade, etc...

That Glaceon set isn't a good Sp.sweeping set, with Ice Beam as it's sole damaging move, & Hidden Power as it's backup, at a measily base 70 at best? With no way of increasing his power, she's not really scaring much. She shouldn't have to rely on Wish-passing, or even status lowering (which is just about forcing a switch) because she's supposed to be sweeping. She should only concentrate in hitting as many things as it can, as hard as it can. Plus, she's an Ice type, which is weak to Stealth Rock. I donl\'t like that in a sweeper.

I felt the same, but a Choice Specs set would be even worse.

Magnezone has great SP.ATK, but it's too slow. I like the idea of Skarm trapping, but...too slow for sweeping.


EDIT:On second glance, the biggest issue with those two poke is the pure fact that they are both too slow.

I like Specsmence, but...not two dragons. That's asking for an Ice Beam. Plus, I've always felt one was enough.
I guess we're going with Porygon-Z, then?
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Waker, that is an EXCELLENT explanation. Kudos to you, for writing something like that. I'm sure we are now all a little bit smarter with our Pokemon knowledge. Thanks very much for clearing up a lot of confusion.
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Old January 14th, 2008 (6:56 AM).
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Nope. Not until we get more imput. I can't think strainght, I'm freaking bout an exam, so I'm useless.


And Gengar/Dusknoir has Pursiut weak. Pory is only weak to fighting, & Tri Attack may wipe them out.
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Old January 14th, 2008 (6:59 AM).
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Nope. Not until we get more imput. I can't think strainght, I'm freaking bout an exam, so I'm useless.


And Gengar/Dusknoir has Pursiut weak. Pory is only weak to fighting, & Tri Attack may wipe them out.
Okay, I think I've got it now. Thanks. Good luck on your examination.

And now we wait...
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Waker, that is an EXCELLENT explanation. Kudos to you, for writing something like that. I'm sure we are now all a little bit smarter with our Pokemon knowledge. Thanks very much for clearing up a lot of confusion.
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Old January 14th, 2008 (7:02 AM).
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we could use Zam, i know he's been very weakened with his loss of the elemental punches but he's still an awesome poke.
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Old January 14th, 2008 (7:03 AM).
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we could use Zam, i know he's been very weakened with his loss of the elemental punches but he's still an awesome poke.
No, we already have Dusknoir and Starmie who are weak to Dark attacks, we don't need another Psychic.
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Waker, that is an EXCELLENT explanation. Kudos to you, for writing something like that. I'm sure we are now all a little bit smarter with our Pokemon knowledge. Thanks very much for clearing up a lot of confusion.
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Old January 14th, 2008 (7:09 AM).
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don't throw rocks at me or anything... But special sweeping Nape with nasty plot hurts a lot

Infernape @ Wide Lens (yes i play on shoddy and sweeping with a sucky focus blast is bad)
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 6 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Flamethrower
- Nasty Plot
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Focus Blast

and good luck on your exam sims^^
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Old January 14th, 2008 (9:17 AM).
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Well, here.

To be honest, I'm not sure if I can choose between these two. Porygon-Z is easily more powerful, but Infernape's faster.

It's a difficult decision...
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Waker, that is an EXCELLENT explanation. Kudos to you, for writing something like that. I'm sure we are now all a little bit smarter with our Pokemon knowledge. Thanks very much for clearing up a lot of confusion.
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Old January 14th, 2008 (10:39 AM).
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Dark Azelf Dark Azelf is offline
cyka blyat
 
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We need something that can inflict major sp. damage, maybe a Choice Specs GYARADOS Salamence or whatever ?

Damn i wish we could use legendaries, heatran would go great here, covers dusknoirs,Starmies and Heracross/Dragonites. dark, bug, Psychic fire, ice weaknesses. Its so fun to switch it in on fire attacks and lol when they think they can wall you with blissey and it gets 2hkod.
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Old January 14th, 2008 (10:44 AM).
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Angelic Diablo Angelic Diablo is offline
Scyther >> You
 
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Scarftran makes a great special sweeper, and with Weezing to eat up incoming (predicted) Earthquakes etc, it will work rather well... damn the no legends thing that Vainz asked us to abide by

I'd be tempted to go with a Roserade, either Scarf or Specs
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Old January 14th, 2008 (10:47 AM).
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Waker of Chaos Waker of Chaos is offline
Unlimited
 
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You know, we should just build two versions of this team. One with legends (OU and weaker), and one without. That way, everyone is happy.

With Legends
Dusknoir / ????
Blissey / ????
Weezing / ????
Starmie / ????
Dragonite / ????
Heatran / Porygon-Z / ????

Without Legends
Dusknoir
Blissey
Weezing
Starmie
Dragonite
Porygon-Z / ????

That's what the team seems to be now.
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Originally Posted by Maddy View Post
Waker, that is an EXCELLENT explanation. Kudos to you, for writing something like that. I'm sure we are now all a little bit smarter with our Pokemon knowledge. Thanks very much for clearing up a lot of confusion.
I only come here to answer Private Messages now.
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Old January 14th, 2008 (4:21 PM).
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Faceless* Faceless* is offline
YES!
 
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Dusknoir and Spiritomb both have the purpose to block Rapid Spin, however in my opinion, Spiritombs better off with Hypnosis/Pain Split with it's low low speed, heck, you should be able to use it as a lead. Dusknoir inflicts heavier damage and has it's superior defenses.
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Old January 14th, 2008 (5:03 PM).
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Ársa Ársa is offline
k.
 
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Heracross = 25.51% - 29.93% with Aerial Ace on 128 Def, 252 HP Dusknoir.
Heracross = 41.84% - 49.32% with Stone Edge on 128 Def, 252 HP Dusknoir.
Heracross = 37.41% - 44.22% with Megahoron on 128 Def, 252 HP Dusknior.

~T_S
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