Animal Rights Thread!

[jupotatoes]

Well, recently there has been a mild discussion (on wich I proudly got warned ) in this forum on a thread about seafood.
Since the admins (well, an admin) thought the section was inappropriate for discussion, I'm moving the debate to this thread.
About myself, I'm a brazilian 4-year-long vegan (meaning, I don't support any kind of animal exploitation, being it the consumption of meat, dairy, eggs, leather, honey, and so on) Language Science college student. Never felt happier or healthier (I'm currently into running, cycling and weight-training, so I guess I can tell).
This thread is meant for everyone to feel free to express their views and experiences (of course, behave!;)) on anything concerning the issue, such as the use of animals as entertainment, food, clothing, drugtesting, nutrition info and whatsoever.
We can also share videos, links and all kinds of info.
So that's it, hope everyone's willing to share and have a nice chat!

 

[Rich Boy Rob]

I can understand some animal rights but I could never understand how some people find that milking cows or farming honey is cruel. While I may not be a vegetarian or vegan (I would die without my bacon and eggs) I can understand that you may find it cruel to kill things and eat them, but what do you think is wrong with milking a cow or honey farming?

 

[Rai-chan]

I don't understand how eating meat is wrong.... I mean, animals eat each other! And plants are alive as well... so would eating them be "wrong" too?

 

[Rich Boy Rob]

I don't understand how eating meat is wrong.... I mean, animals eat each other! And plants are alive as well... so would eating them be "wrong" too?

That is exactly what I think.

 

[yvette]

Eating meat is natural. Why would anything be wrong with it? o.0 I guess the problem here is how we exploit animals so easily and how we treat them. Keeping a whole bunch of chickens in a tiny cage where they can get injured pretty easily, and after you take them out they're already half-dead. These chickens don't even get to go outside under the sun before they become meat. It's pretty sad. I mean, you can at least let an animal go out and graze for a little while before doing the deed, right? I'm a vegetarian, but my brother eats meat. I don't have a problem with it. I ate meat once; it was pretty good, but I remembered that I don't exercise much so eating a ton of meat wouldn't help. xD But you can become obese/fat even if you're vegetarian. It all comes down to how much you exercise daily.

I was born and raised a vegetarian till I came to Canada. And then my brother decided meat tastes really good, and now he sneaks pepperoni slices to the house. lol

Plants are alive, but they belong to a distinct kingdom, Vegetabilia (Plantae). They don't belong to Animalia, because they aren't motile. They're still animals though (autotrophs). Wow, this is hard... and I'm not a good biology or science student. D:

 

[jupotatoes]

Nice to see you took the interest :D Thanks for aeveryone sharing. Now, for some answering!

I don't understand how eating meat is wrong.... I mean, animals eat each other! And plants are alive as well... so would eating them be "wrong" too?

Animals eat eachother because they need to. Their digestive system is designed to break down flesh, and tigers can't just put more broccoli on their plates if the doctor said they need calcium or iron, for instance. It's also nature's way to mantain its balance.
As for eating plant, we do it because we're meant to. And though plant are alive, they don't have conscience, feel pain or emotions. Animals on the other hand, do.

I can understand some animal rights but I could never understand how some people find that milking cows or farming honey is cruel. While I may not be a vegetarian or vegan (I would die without my bacon and eggs) I can understand that you may find it cruel to kill things and eat them, but what do you think is wrong with milking a cow or honey farming?

The thing is Rob, when these animals are used as commodities, they're used as machinery on a production line, kept under really poor conditions.
Hens, when they're still chicks, if they're not thrown away

Spoiler:

and grinded into other chickens' food

,

Spoiler:

they have their beaks, feathers, and sometimes talons painfully removed

. They also have to live under poor conditions

Spoiler:

on their own feces and urine

, making them sick all the time.
Cows are also kept under poor conditions, similar to hens, and are fed hormones to produce more milk, what makes their udders inflamate, very often leading to develop cancer (

Spoiler:

cancer tissue, blood and pus get mixed up on the milk, wich is disguised with water and white food colouring

). To produce milk, a cow has to be pregnant often. However, as males can't produce milk, they'll become veal (the process is even too cruel to describe, if anyone wants to know more about how babybeef is made, just google it).
As for the honey, even some people who consider themselves to be vegan consume it.
https://www.vegetus.org/honey/honey.htm Bottomline, bees are smart, bees feel pain, bees don't make their honey for the humans, they're not meant to be exploited and kept captive, and the agents honey producers steam on the bees make them sick and shorten their lives.

Eating meat is natural For the tigers ;) Our bodies are designed to digest plants (long intestines and molars). Why would anything be wrong with it? o.0 I guess the problem here is how we exploit animals so easily and how we treat them Damn right pal. Keeping a whole bunch of chickens in a tiny cage where they can get injured pretty easily, and after you take them out they're already half-dead. These chickens don't even get to go outside under the sun before they become meat

Spoiler:

also, three days before being murdered, they're no longer fed, as nothing would be paid for the content of their intestines

. It's pretty sad. I mean, you can at least let an animal go out and graze for a little while before doing the deed, right? I'm a vegetarian, but my brother eats meat. I don't have a problem with it. I ate meat once; it was pretty good, but I remembered that I don't exercise much so eating a ton of meat wouldn't help. xD But you can become obese/fat even if you're vegetarian. It all comes down to how much you exercise daily. A friend of mine became OBESE after becoming vegan :laugh: vegan or omni, weight is about knowing how to eat... I'm in the best form of my life, in the last year and a half I got 21 pounds and even lost some fat :knockedou

I was born and raised a vegetarian till I came to Canada. And then my brother decided meat tastes really good, and now he sneaks pepperoni slices to the house. lol

Plants are alive, but they belong to a distinct kingdom, Vegetabilia (Plantae). They don't belong to Animalia, because they aren't motile. They're still animals though (autotrophs). Wow, this is hard... and I'm not a good biology or science student. D:
^^ Plants are alive, but they're not animals though. As I said, they don't feel pain or emotions, nor have conscience.

Hope I may have clarified a little.
Sorry for the spoilers X).

 

[poopnoodle]

I wouldn't call eating meat "natural" to humans. Our body is anatomically consistent with a herbivorous diet, so it's more natural for us to eat fruits and vegetables than to eat meat.

The exploitation is what saddens me, and I believe animals do feel terror and grief. The conditions these animals are kept in, whether it's a cow only being used for milk or a pig waiting in the slaughter line, are dreadful. I respect animals, so I've chosen the vegan path.

 

[jupotatoes]

Yeah, and there's the whole "but owh brain zo big guz we eeht meeht!" talk. When in fact, it wasn't omega 3 (it wouldn't even be a good excuse, as you can find it on seeds...), it was the process of hunting itself, wich demanded much of our thinking and our food choices being more soft, such as fruit and cooked meat instead of roots and tubes, wich wasn't that hard on or jaws, loosening it and therefore letting the skull get bigger.
It's just dumb when someone says "cuz it helptuss evaulve" - what, are you underevolved and trying to get there?

 

[twocows]

I sent this in a private message to thread creator because I didn't see this thread had been created yet. Here's the contents.

There is a very key difference between people and animals. People are capable of understanding the difference between right and wrong, they are able to understand why it is not tolerable to harm another person. Sometimes, they don't understand it that well, but there's still an understanding. This is something that even the most advanced animal cannot do. A person can consciously do good works, but an animal will only do good if trained to do so or if instinct tells them to (a dog saving a family member is a good example of this; dogs are descended from wolves, who are instinctively motivated to protect pack members).

There are other things that an animal lacks that separates them from us than what I listed above; the ability to self-govern and make rational decisions in situations, for starters. Traits such as these make every person an end in themselves (as opposed to a means to an end). Now, one might say that some people lack all of these traits as well; in that case, I will make the distinction that there is a possibility (however remote) that they can develop these characteristics. Animals are physically unable to develop such traits, however. And it is for these reasons that killing or harming a person is morally unjust for any reason other than defense (and even then, other solutions are preferable).

Animals, however, can only be an end by virtue of benefit to man. For instance, we need them to maintain the ecosystem; if we upset the balance too much, we'll screw things up and food will become much more scarce. So protecting animals with respect to keeping humans alive is an end, sure. Then there are people whose companions are animals; usually, this means pets. Killing or harming someone's pet will likely cause mental anguish to the owner; thus, keeping that animal alive is an end with respect to its owner.

However, there are people who must kill animals to survive. There exist migratory tribes in Africa whose survival relies on hunting animals to eat. The grounds are not ripe for farming (nor would they likely have the materials to do so anyway), and naturally-growing plant-life is far too scarce to sustain them. In this case, animals are a means to keep other humans alive, something which I think is completely understandable.

Even when not discussing necessity, though, I feel that eating meat is a tolerable act. The government has done a relatively good job of making sure animals are treated and killed in humane ways (exceptions abound, but for the most part, this holds true). The animals that are bred to become meat generally don't hold a relation to man that allows them to be an end; they're not companions and they usually don't upset the ecosystem. Overfishing might be an exception, but there are international laws in place to prevent this.

I made some changes in the private message version, but this is basically what I said. I think I also discussed the killing process and laws surrounding it a bit, IIRC.

 

[Yamikarasu]

While I agree that animals are probably treated inhumanely on farms, etc., I really don't feel bad enough about it to stop eating meat. Animals are animals, people are people, and it's natural that the better predator is going to win out.

That said, I admire the discipline it takes to be vegan. I couldn't do it if I wanted to.

I wouldn't call eating meat "natural" to humans. Our body is anatomically consistent with a herbivorous diet, so it's more natural for us to eat fruits and vegetables than to eat meat.

Wrong. We have canine teeth. They're for tearing flesh. When we lived in caves we hunted animals to survive, and every culture has done this at some point. Saying it is unnatural is denying all of human history and prehistory. The debate is whether or not it is moral to eat meat.

 

[poopnoodle]

There is a very key difference between people and animals. People are capable of understanding the difference between right and wrong, they are able to understand why it is not tolerable to harm another person. Sometimes, they don't understand it that well, but there's still an understanding. This is something that even the most advanced animal cannot do. A person can consciously do good works, but an animal will only do good if trained to do so or if instinct tells them to (a dog saving a family member is a good example of this; dogs are descended from wolves, who are instinctively motivated to protect pack members).

Not necessarily, here are a couple of examples:
https://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21689083/
https://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/beds/bucks/herts/4165273.stm

I think it's a bold statement to claim whether or not there is a distinct moral gap between humans and other animals. If there is, I don't think that justifies the decision to eat meat. Animals are capable of strong emotions, much more than humanity gives them credit for.

However, there are people who must kill animals to survive. There exist migratory tribes in Africa whose survival relies on hunting animals to eat. The grounds are not ripe for farming (nor would they likely have the materials to do so anyway), and naturally-growing plant-life is far too scarce to sustain them. In this case, animals are a means to keep other humans alive, something which I think is completely understandable.

I am on board with killing an animal to survive, but only as a last resort. Even then I'm not so sure I could stomach it, but that's a personal thing. If you can and you're desperate to live, go for it.

Even when not discussing necessity, though, I feel that eating meat is a tolerable act. The government has done a relatively good job of making sure animals are treated and killed in humane ways (exceptions abound, but for the most part, this holds true). The animals that are bred to become meat generally don't hold a relation to man that allows them to be an end; they're not companions and they usually don't upset the ecosystem. Overfishing might be an exception, but there are international laws in place to prevent this.

As you said, exceptions abound. Factory farming is a more popular method to produce meat, and I wouldn't call the treatment of animals there humane in the least. I'm not very informed in this area though, perhaps jupotatoes can provide more information.

Wrong. We have canine teeth. They're for tearing flesh. When we lived in caves we hunted animals to survive, and every culture has done this at some point. Saying it is unnatural is denying all of human history and prehistory. The debate is whether or not it is moral to eat meat.

Read this. At the bottom, there is a chart for you.
Our earliest ancestors actually ate plants and bugs. It wasn't until fire was discovered that humans started to eat meat more regularly.

 

[jupotatoes]

While I agree that animals are probably treated inhumanely on farms, etc., I really don't feel bad enough about it to stop eating meat. Animals are animals, people are people, and it's natural that the better predator is going to win out.
People are animals, bleh ;). And people don't need to eat other animals, nor is it good for people (famine, global warming, general health... a vegan diet would resolve or lessen the problems).
That said, I admire the discipline it takes to be vegan. I couldn't do it if I wanted to.
It's just a matter of conscience. Actually, nowadays I don't really think it takes much discipline, as I feel sick when I see animals turned into food. To me, veganism happened overnight 4 years ago. As for others, it takes more time.

Wrong. We have canine teeth. They're for tearing flesh. When we lived in caves we hunted animals to survive, and every culture has done this at some point. Saying it is unnatural is denying all of human history and prehistory. The debate is whether or not it is moral to eat meat.
Gorillas also have canines, but only in the outer part of our dental arcade, like us. In that case, the same way as molars, they're required to tear apart fibers in vegetables. Also, differently from carnivores, our canines aren't sharp enought to slice, and our digestive tract is long (like cows', unlike lions'), so we can digest fiber propperly.
In the case of need, it has been proof (through experimentation with mice, rabbits and hens) that every animal can turn into a carnivore, even not being it's nature.
For instance: put in a room a baby, an apple, a baby tiger and a rabbit.
The baby will play with the rabbit and eat the apple.
The baby tiger will play with the apple and eat the rabbit... and then the baby.

I sent this in a private message to thread creator because I didn't see this thread had been created yet. Here's the contents.

Uh, already answered your message, but forgot to save it on my sent items box :knockedou.
Would you care to quote my kilometrical notes? *_*



>>Edit
Poopz, AWESOME LINKS! Thank you very very much for sharing! :D

 

[Luck]

I wouldn't call eating meat "natural" to humans. Our body is anatomically consistent with a herbivorous diet, so it's more natural for us to eat fruits and vegetables than to eat meat.

The exploitation is what saddens me, and I believe animals do feel terror and grief. The conditions these animals are kept in, whether it's a cow only being used for milk or a pig waiting in the slaughter line, are dreadful. I respect animals, so I've chosen the vegan path.

Although I do feel that animals need to be kept in better conditions, I have to show you that you are wrong. We have canine teeth, as Yamikarasu said, but we also have enzymes for killing the bacteria in rotting meat, and we lack the ability to digest cellulose(the appendix used to do that), which(from what I've seen) every herbivorous animal has. Humans have an omnivorous digestive system, not an herbivorous one.

Even though most animals do have feelings, it really only matters to me if they are aware of their existence. So far, the only species that can do so are the elephants, dolphins, chimpanzees, and humans. I will not deny that other species can be aware of their existence, but with the hold we have on most species, we cannot really know until evolution kicks in.

The baby will play with the rabbit and eat the apple.
The baby tiger will play with the apple and eat the rabbit... and then the baby.

Are you talking about this?
Because if so, this video already debunked it.

 

[Autistic Lucario]

I think that everyone will have to stop eating meat if this happens:

 

[poopnoodle]

Although I do feel that animals need to be kept in better conditions, I have to show you that you are wrong. We have canine teeth, as Yamikarasu said, but we also have enzymes for killing the bacteria in rotting meat, and we lack the ability to digest cellulose(the appendix used to do that), which(from what I've seen) every herbivorous animal has. Humans have an omnivorous digestive system, not an herbivorous one.

You are right, and apologies. I seemed to have been viewing a biased source, and upon further research, I found more evidence pointing to humans being omnivorous by evolution. These days, however, it is easier for human beings to take on a herbivorous diet, and there are plenty of alternatives for essential nutrients.

 

[Luck]

You are right, and apologies. I seemed to have been viewing a biased source, and upon further research, I found more evidence pointing to humans being omnivorous by evolution. These days, however, it is easier for human beings to take on a herbivorous diet, and there are plenty of alternatives for essential nutrients.

It's okay, I can see where you are coming from.
And although there are plants and other foods that give you protein(and other nutrients to replace eating meat), I see meat as the easiest way to get protein. Of course, I will gladly let other people correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm not that educated on subjects like these :\

And as for you jupotatoes, I remember that Mythbusters had an episode testing if plants had feelings. I can't remember the end result, but hopefully I can find it.

 

[Fox♠]

Ughhh, I cannot stand this whole "eatin meat is wron poor animalz" malarkey.
You seem to bypass the fact that most of the animals we kill for food wouldn't of lived had they not being bred to feed us. And you can use battery farming as a 'valid' counter argument all you want, but (at least in england) the animals we eat mostly come from free range farms.

 

[jupotatoes]

Are you talking about this?
Because if so, this video already debunked it.

You are right, and apologies. I seemed to have been viewing a biased source, and upon further research, I found more evidence pointing to humans being omnivorous by evolution. These days, however, it is easier for human beings to take on a herbivorous diet, and there are plenty of alternatives for essential nutrients.

Okay, please notice that both videos are heavily biased. Especially, they don't even anything regarding ethics whatsoever. Also, I don't mean the rabbit/tiger/baby latenight leathermask encounter as anything solid, I was just reffering to the difference on instincts.
Please know I don't ignore the fact that in some period, we really did deppend on meat, and adapt to it. However, if you measure fisiologically how we've adapted to meat and plants, you'll see the difference is grotesque.

It's okay, I can see where you are coming from.
And although there are plants and other foods that give you protein(and other nutrients to replace eating meat), I see meat as the easiest way to get protein. Of course, I will gladly let other people correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm not that educated on subjects like these :\

And as for you jupotatoes, I remember that Mythbusters had an episode testing if plants had feelings. I can't remember the end result, but hopefully I can find it.

I think you reffer to the episode they 'studied' the effect of music on plant growth. They found out plant on heavy metal grew more. But that's how plant interact with their ambiance. There's a blog (wich name I don't remember, something like japaneseplantblog) on wich scientists glued electrodes to a plant and decoded that into short text messages. However, that's just a logarithm working on what a plant can experience: thirst, cold, heat, humidity. Also, this doesn't mean the plant is in any way displeased, nor can it feel pain or fear.
Also, as I said, last year and half I got 21 pounds of muscle and even lost a little fat. Protein can be easily found in plants. The thing is, protein is made of aminoacids. Those aminoacids are very balanced in meats, however, in veggies they aren't. This just means it's smarter to eat a big range of vegetables (and is that just for vegans?).
About plant-based diets and protein, check out www.veganbodybuilding.com.

Ughhh, I cannot stand this whole "slavery is wron poor africans" see my point? malarkey.
You seem to bypass the fact that most of the animals we kill for food wouldn't of lived had they not being bred to feed us. And you can use battery farming as a 'valid' counter argument all you want, but (at least in england) the animals we eat mostly come from free range farms.

There are more animals being bred to become food than people. And they're only born because of that. However, how'd you like to be born and have a miserable subsexistence?
As for free range farms, the animals are treated as utensils and murdered for their flesh when they're old. I don't see how that is ethical. Like "ok grandpa, now we want your teeth to turn into a cool necklace! 8D"
https://www.veganbodybuilding.com/

 

[Luck]

Okay, please notice that both videos are heavily biased. Especially, they don't even anything regarding ethics whatsoever. Also, I don't mean the rabbit/tiger/baby latenight leathermask encounter as anything solid, I was just reffering to the difference on instincts.
Please know I don't ignore the fact that in some period, we really did deppend on meat, and adapt to it. However, if you measure fisiologically how we've adapted to meat and plants, you'll see the difference is grotesque.

Facts aren't biased. Whether you believe it or not, we do not have the ability to digest cellulose, something that herbivores have.
As for ethics, that is completely subjective. Subjective claims fail hard in real discussions.

 

[jupotatoes]

Facts aren't biased. Whether you believe it or not, we do not have the ability to digest cellulose, something that herbivores have.
As for ethics, that is completely subjective. Subjective claims fail hard in real discussions.

The videos really are biased, and both of'em. I said how I think both of them fail. If you think the opposite, please explain! :cheeky:
I guess if only solid facts matter, and ethics don't matter at all...
-Hey, I'm biggah than ya, now ima beat yo ass!
I'm sure you know better though.
Also, we're not herbivores. We're mostly (because again, we did evolve a little towards omnivorism) vegetarian. While we can't digest cellulose, we find our sugars in fruit and veggies.