For Battle Spot Doubles laddering

[Nah]

So I wanted to get back into cartridge laddering and figured I'd do doubles for that since singles laddering on Showdown is better than Battle Spot Singles imo. And it wouldn't hurt to try to get into doubles too. So anyway, started thinking up a team for that but could use help completing it and improving it and stuff. So far it's (edits in bold):

Garchomp @ Garchompite
EVs: 4 Atk/252 SpA/252 Spe
Ability: Rough Skin---->Sand Force
Naughty Nature
-Draco Meteor
-Earthquake
-Rock Slide
-Protect

This one was already sorta discussed in the Q&A thread. I like Garchomp and happened to get this beautiful pink land shark in a trade and thought that I'd try to use it. Earth Power was recommended over Earthquake, and I do get why, but I'll stick with Earthquake for now. I wanna make use of the Naughty nature, not to mention that Draco Meteor's Sp.Attack drop hurts the damage output of Earth Power.

Tyranitar @ Lum Berry
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spe/4 HP
Ability: Sand Stream
Jolly Nature
-Rock Slide
-Crunch
-Dragon Dance
-Protect

Sand Force needs sand, so the logical thing to do is to put in a sand summoner. This is the Tyranitar I have on hand. I suppose it's a little weird and I don't remember why I made it this way, but maybe Fire Blast and Ice Beam will be good for some surprise kills or something. Dragon Dance Tyranitar provides me with a powerful set up sweeper that at +1 and with Tailwind and Follow Me support from Togekiss can put in some work. Lum Berry because status can fuck off.

Togekiss @ Safety Googles
EVs: 252 HP/164 Def/28 SpD/60 Spe
Ability: Super Luck
Bold Nature
-Dazzling Gleam
-Follow Me
-Tailwind
-Protect

This was recommended in the Q&A thread too. Togekiss is immune to Ground so it doesn't have to worry about getting EQ'd by Garchomp, and Follow Me support is appreciated by a lot of Pokemon in doubles. Garchomp (and T-tar) is also kinda slow and would like to have a speed boost from Tailwind. Not sure what to do about the item though. Sitrus Berry is good to get some health back, while Safety Googles is good to prevent Sandstorm damage and Spore.

Aegislash @ Weakness Policy
EVs: 252 HP/100 SpA/156 SpD
Ability: Stance Change
Quiet Nature
-Shadow Ball
-King's Shield
-Wide Guard
-Sacred Sword/Flash Cannon

Togekiss doesn't really protect against Fairies though, and the team is already kinda Fairy weak. Pixilated Hyper Voice is the most common Fairy attack, so Wide Guard Aegislash helps out with that, and Wide Guard seems to be a good move anyway (also let's it not get hit by EQ without having to use King's Shield). Fortunately getting Wide Guard on Aegislash is a lot easier in ORAS than it was in XY. The last move depends on whether or not I can get the Flash Cannon TM, since for some reason Game Freak thought that it'd be a good idea to put useful TMs on Mirage islands. I kinda prefer Flash Cannon so I can hit Fairies super effectively, but Sacred Sword is easier to get and has its uses too. Iron Head might be an option actually. Unsure on the item on this one too.

Gastrodon @ Expert Belt
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 204 HP/100 Def/196 SpA/8 SpD
Modest Nature
-Earth Power
-Ice Beam
-Scald
-Recover

Gastrodon hampers the Water types that give the team so far problems, provides an Electric immunity, and also threatens Ground types, especially the common Landorus-Therian.

Rotom-Heat @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 180 HP/4 Def/188 SpA/132 Spe
Timid Nature
-Thunderbolt
-Overheat
-Will-o-Wisp
-Protect

Rotom-Heat fills in a few holes, being a Grass and Boltbeam resist as well as a bird check, spreads burns to cripple physical attackers, and together with Gastrodon can deal with most Water types. Also provides Fire and Electric damage cuz those are nice offensive types.

I don't even know if this is even any good; Mega Garchomp might require too much support for this to be a viable team. So I'm open to suggestions.

 

[Polar Spectrum]

I'll try and invest more in a significant feedback post later, but right now I'd say you're looking to deal with Terrakion alright with Aegi and probably mega chomp, Lando T looks like it may be a problem, barring the sneaky Ice Beam on Tyranitar sacking it, but I've been seeing a lot of Suicune more recently, and looking at the GTS usage stats, as well as VGC teams- it's not just me. You might want something to deal with bulky Suicunes for serious laddering.

And yeah; sorry for shallow feedback - I'll try and come back to this later. I'm sure Sky berries may have some more immediately comprehensive feedback than myself too,

 

[skyburial]

So, thoughts on the team so far (great foundation btw)

1. You've got a couple great options for Tyranitar that Togekiss allows for. With Follow Me support from something that 4X resists fighting, it can set up a Dragon Dance pretty easily so long as your opponent doesn't Toge-Taunt (in other words watch out for Thundurus). You'd want a physical set for that, with a Jolly Nature and Rock Slide/Protect/Crunch. OR you can slap a Choice Scarf on it and sub Dark Pulse for Crunch.
2. If you decide to go with the Scarftar set, I'd put Thunder Wave or Roost on Toge in place of Follow Me! Because it's weak to Ice, and so is Garchomp, so you're not really doing either one any favors there. Dazzling Gleam makes more sense than Air Slash on this team because the rest of it is pretty well threatened by Hydreigon. Alternatively, you can run Volcarona in a really similar setup with Tailwind, Rage Powder, Heat Wave and Giga Drain. If you go with that option, we can rap about EV's.
3. The set that you're fishing for with that Aegislash is Weakness Policy, the same one I use. It looks like this:

Aegislash @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD or Spe
Modest/Quiet Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon

- Wide Guard
- King's Shield


The nature and 4 IV's are completely a matter of style. Quiet Aegislash will fair better as a Trick Room counter, but your Chomp does well in and out of Trick Room as long as you can play around Ice Beams from Cresselia, Jellicent and Porygon2. Modest will outspeed Sylveon and other Aegislash outside of Trick Room. My own strategy usually involves sacking the Trick Room user with a Safety Goggles user and Aegislash before it can set up. There's no need to really invest that heavily in Special Defense because it's already so naturally high. I can bail you out on Flash Cannon if you want, I know how much of a pain it is to get.



For your last 2, you're gonna wanna consider something mean on the defensive side. Personally, I think Gastrodon is a great match for this team, but I usually like to glue teams together with Gastro. It's hard to knock Rotom-W and it does equally well in the sand. Lemme know which one you want and we can rap sets.


... I'm at a loss for the 6th poke though.

 

[Nah]

Might go with Dragon Dance Tyranitar then. Kinda don't wanna give up Follow Me on Togekiss because it'd be a hassle to get it back if I wanna use Follow Me on it again after replacing it.

Iron Head is tempting to go with on Aegislash though because Iron Head actually does more damage to Mega Gardevoir and Sylveon than Flash Cannon does even with max SpA investment. Suppose it's something I'll have to test and see which Steel STAB I want.

How exactly would I use Gastrodon here though?

There's also the issues of Lando-T and Suicune/bulky waters that Polar mentioned. Kinda need something for those too.....

 

[skyburial]

Might go with Dragon Dance Tyranitar then. Kinda don't wanna give up Follow Me on Togekiss because it'd be a hassle to get it back if I wanna use Follow Me on it again after replacing it.

Go for it.

Iron Head is tempting to go with on Aegislash though because Iron Head actually does more damage to Mega Gardevoir and Sylveon than Flash Cannon does even with max SpA investment. Suppose it's something I'll have to test and see which Steel STAB I want.

You can afford to do that if you decide not to D Dance Tyranitar. Otherwise, you're a bit too vulnerable to burn/intimidate/confusion shenanigans.

How exactly would I use Gastrodon here though?

There's also the issues of Lando-T and Suicune/bulky waters that Polar mentioned. Kinda need something for those too.....

Gastrodon is the king of bulky water types, only being threatened by Ludicolo. Expert Belt Ice Beam from Offensive Gastrodon is a guaranteed OHKO on Lando.

Comments in bold.

I had a thought. WHAT ABOUT Safety Goggles Rage Powdering Volcarona, Expert Belt Gastrodon and a variation of Ferrothorn?

Jesus, that core is amazing. Your opponents would be second guessing themselves at every turn.

 

[Nah]

True, I forgot about burns and Intimidate hindering Iron Head. Gotta hope that the Mirage island with Flash Cannon shows up then.

What is the set for offensive Gastrodon btw? I never really thought of it as an offensive 'mon before.

And I suppose that Rage Powder Volcarona is an option to consider....though I'll stick with Togekiss for now.

 

[skyburial]

What is the set for offensive Gastrodon btw? I never really thought of it as an offensive 'mon before.

I gotchu.

Gastrodon @ Expert Belt
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 204 HP / 100 Def / 196 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 27 Spe
– Earth Power
– Ice Beam
– Scald
– Protect

Look familiar? Almost identical to the Swampert I use ;)

But it's the way to go if another team mate is supplying Wide Guard support.

 

[Nah]

OP's been updated with some of the changes.

So at this point I have 5 Pokemon. I'm still a little worried about Suicune since while Gastrodon can tank its attacks and absorb its Water STAB it's not exactly breaking Suicune either and I don't think anything on the team right now is. Then there's also Mega Lopunny. It beats Tyranitar, if it carries Ice Punch it beats Garchomp, Togekiss can't eat its Normal STAB for too long (or Ice Punch for that matter), and Aegislash and it have to play mind games with each other.

 

[rob_thijs]

Replace Serene Grace with Super Luck on Togekiss. Dazzling Gleam doesn't have a secondary effect and neither has Follow Me or Tailwind.

As for your 6th pokémon I would go with Mega Sceptile. The raw power it provides gets a lot of kills and he is fast as hell.

Sceptile @ Sceptilite
Nature - Modest
Ability - Lightning Rod
EV's - 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
- Leaf Storm
- Dragon Pulse
- Hidden Power Ice
- Protect

With a Modest nature and 252 speed it will outspeed Garchomp, Choice Scarf Garchomp and Mega Salamence.
With a Modest nature and 252 Spa it will get the OKO on Suicune, Tyranitar, Garchomp and Mega Salamence. These pokémon come to mind as treats, I know it will OKO a lot more.

252+ SpA Mega Sceptile Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0- SpD Garchomp: 218-260 (118.4 - 141.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Most Suicune are Defensive so I took the SpD from the Suicune I use.
252+ SpA Mega Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 232 HP / 80 SpD Suicune: 218-260 (106.8 - 127.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Mega Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 176-210 (100 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Mega Sceptile Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 188-224 (110.5 - 131.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Sandertn]

I really dont know a lot about double battles, but I remember that sword dance really was good with aegislash in x and y, if that still is the case, shouldnt you go for that?

 

[skyburial]

What's got you so scared of Suicune? There are a number of combinations you can use to subvert it. This is the most common set found in VGC/Battle Spot Doubles:

Suicune @ Sitrus Berry/Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Evs: 252 HP / 100 Def / 100 SpA / 52 SpD / 4 Spe
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Protect/Snarl/Tailwind
- Protect/Icy Wind/Tailwind

A Gastrodon/Tyranitar or Gastrodon/Aegislash combo would effectively counter it because of the redirecting effects of Storm Drain. Crocune is not as popular in Doubles because it wastes turns.

Here's what I'd propose for a 6th member:

Talonflame @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
Naive Nature
- Brave Bird
- Overheat
- Roost/Quick Guard
- Protect

This will take care of Mega Lopunny as well as Breloom, which I think is a bigger threat to your team right now.

 

[rob_thijs]

Suicune is anoying as fuck. That's why you want it gone as soon as possible. Also most Breloom have sash so you have to double target it something you don't want to do when for example there is a Mega Kahn on the field. Grass types are immune for spore what is nice. Mega Lopunny almost never has Ice Punch unless the user is extremly paranoid for Dragons and Landorus. Togekiss can opt for Safety Goggles so he doesn't take damage from Sand Storm and becomes immune for Spore Togekiss can deal with Breloom easily.

Also it is not really a option to run both Quick Guard and Protect on the same mon. Cause Protect fails when Quick Guard has used and visa versa.

 

[skyburial]

Fair. Dunno about the Double-Mega approach, it can scoop big holes into a team. But it's something to try. I 4-0'd someone who tried to use a double mega team on me in SLC this weekend.

Agreed on Safety Goggle Toge though.

 

[rob_thijs]

Fair. Dunno about the Double-Mega approach, it can scoop big holes into a team. But it's something to try. I 4-0'd someone who tried to use a double mega team on me in SLC this weekend.

Agreed on Safety Goggle Toge though.

You don't bring both Garchomp and Sceptile to a fight. It would be kinda dumb cause you have 2x 4x Ice Weakness. You want to bring Garchomp if you see a Talonflame and you bring Sceptile if you see Suicune. If they have both I would bring Sceptile and Tyranitar.

Double Mega can work, my Trick Room team has Mega Mawille and Mega Amphaross and I did never bring them both. The only thing I struggled against was Dark Void Smeargle but that was not common at all. Also I had a Chandelure with Imprison so the opponent could not use Protect, Trick Room or Shadow Ball so he could not Protect stall. It was a good team but I felt like Trick Room was not the way to go at VGC.

 

[skyburial]

Once again, It's not out of the question, just not something I'd do because I like to have the option to bring any of my team members as needed.

However, I'd recommend HP Ground over HP Ice on Sceptile because it allows it to hit Steel types including Aegislash and Heatran.

 

[rob_thijs]

I think you are right Sky but don't forget Garchomp can still function without his Mega Evolution but it doesn't have an attack boosting item. I fought a Slowbro on a doubles team the other day and I thought I just hit him with Knock Off but it was holding a Mega Stone so it didn't do that much. He didn't Mega Evolve at all so just because it holds a Mega Stone it doesn't mean you have to Mega Evolve it.

 

[Nah]

Bulky waters just get me mad paranoid for some reason.

Also, I don't want anything that uses Hidden Power. I very much understand how useful specific Hidden Power types are, I use it all the time on Showdown, but on cartridge it's a huge bitch to breed for a Hidden Power type on top of everything else.

I really dont know a lot about double battles, but I remember that sword dance really was good with aegislash in x and y, if that still is the case, shouldnt you go for that?

In early X/Y OU Swords Dance Aegislash was good, but these days and in doubles especially it's not so good since Intimidate is common and burns (also somewhat common) cripple it. Aegislash doesn't need to go physical on this team since I have other physical attackers, and the Wide Guard support is helpful.

I think you are right Sky but don't forget Garchomp can still function without his Mega Evolution but it doesn't have an attack boosting item. I fought a Slowbro on a doubles team the other day and I thought I just hit him with Knock Off but it was holding a Mega Stone so it didn't do that much. He didn't Mega Evolve at all so just because it holds a Mega Stone it doesn't mean you have to Mega Evolve it.

Most Pokemon that can mega evolve want to mega evolve asap though. Slowbro is one of those rare exceptions because it already has good physical bulk, the special bulk is the same between the 2, the special attack increase doesn't matter much, and regular Slowbro has Regenerator.

I think that in this case, Garchomp is gonna wanna mega evolve asap. It's not running a +Speed nature so it doesn't have it's usual trolly Speed stat in regular form, and needs the power boost from mega evolving given the set it's using.

Still am unsure about the 6th member, but did decide to roll with Safety Googles on Togekiss.

 

[skyburial]

Another Possibility. How about a Specs Rotom-Heat? It completely shuts down Suicune next to Gastrodon, makes a rad counter for Zapdos, Thundurus, and Heatran, and gives you some sweet Fire-Type coverage, Levitates over EQ unlike Tran, and burns stuff. You can never deny the great utility of burning stuff.

 

[rob_thijs]

Don't forget to switch Serene Grace with Super Luck because yeah I mentioned it Dazzling Gleam doesn't have added effects.

 

[Nah]

Another Possibility. How about a Specs Rotom-Heat? It completely shuts down Suicune next to Gastrodon, makes a rad counter for Zapdos, Thundurus, and Heatran, and gives you some sweet Fire-Type coverage, Levitates over EQ unlike Tran, and burns stuff. You can never deny the great utility of burning stuff.

Isn't Choice Specs+Wisp a bad idea though?

Don't forget to switch Serene Grace with Super Luck because yeah I mentioned it Dazzling Gleam doesn't have added effects.

I would, but I'm much too lazy to breed a new Togekiss and I don't have another Shiny Stone. Besides, Super Luck will never work for me anyway because that's how hax works lol