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raging lion
May 11th, 2008, 01:59 AM
Hi everybody. I am a bit confuse about pokemon legenderies and Gods like in every region there are different legenderies and gods.

Kanto: Legendery birds and Ho-Oh god
Jhoto: Legendery Cats and Ho-oh god
Hoen: Groudon, kyogre and ryquaza god
Sinno: Many legenderies and arcius god

I m confuse that which is the real god and strongest pokemon.

El Gofre
May 11th, 2008, 02:14 AM
There is only one god- arceus. It doesnt differ between regions. The other's are legendry, but not necersarrily gods. Some are guards appointed by arceus, for example lugia guards the sea, rayquaza guards kyogre/groudon. and ho-oh guards the dogs. Others are created by arceus to perform tasks- Dialga and palkia hold the universe together, kyogre/groudon regulate the planet'slandmasses and regigigas moves the continents around. Some are just rare or powerful pokes, like the 3 birds and regis. The anime often states otherwise, but i go byu the games as they are the original product.

Arceus could be seen as the strongest poke, but its best described as "A jack of all trades, a master of none". It's stats are high, but it is beaten in ever role by another uber. For example giratina is a better wall, mewtwo is a better sweeper and mew is a better utility poke.

Btw mew is not a god, it is the first "regular" pokemon from which all others evolved. Thats why it shares the dna of all other pokes (Note that description was written before all the "higher powers" were made, so it doesnt necersarilyy share dna with kyogre, palkia ect.)

raging lion
May 11th, 2008, 02:22 AM
Thanks for that discription. Now my confusion is over.

weedle_mchairybug
May 13th, 2008, 01:44 PM
There is only one god- arceus. It doesnt differ between regions. The other's are legendry, but not necersarrily gods. Some are guards appointed by arceus, for example lugia guards the sea, rayquaza guards kyogre/groudon. and ho-oh guards the dogs. Others are created by arceus to perform tasks- Dialga and palkia hold the universe together, kyogre/groudon regulate the planet'slandmasses and regigigas moves the continents around. Some are just rare or powerful pokes, like the 3 birds and regis. The anime often states otherwise, but i go byu the games as they are the original product.

If you are going to go by the games, then Arceus ALSO isn't a god due to the fact that it can be captured by a mortal. If many of the Mythos that I have researched had taught me anything, it's that a god simply cannot be captured by a mortal.

Arceus could be seen as the strongest poke, but its best described as "A jack of all trades, a master of none". It's stats are high, but it is beaten in ever role by another uber. For example giratina is a better wall, mewtwo is a better sweeper and mew is a better utility poke.

Yeah, though it is such a shame that it's captured by a mere mortal (if you ask me, a mere mortal would NOT be able to defeat a god, much less capture one. Heck, the persephone and pirithous myth pretty much confirmed that a mortal can NEVER capture a god. That's my rationale that Arceus, or any legendary for that matter, just aren't gods.)

Btw mew is not a god, it is the first "regular" pokemon from which all others evolved. Thats why it shares the dna of all other pokes (Note that description was written before all the "higher powers" were made, so it doesnt necersarilyy share dna with kyogre, palkia ect.)

Well, Technically, Ho-Oh and many other legendaries might also be descended from it, if we take that family tree in "Lucario and the Mystery of Mew" into account.

El Gofre
May 13th, 2008, 11:29 PM
If you are going to go by the games, then Arceus ALSO isn't a god due to the fact that it can be captured by a mortal. If many of the Mythos that I have researched had taught me anything, it's that a god simply cannot be captured by a mortal.

That's your opinionn, but that implies the arceus in the game is the arceus. As an example, Jesus was the incarnation of god, and allowed himself to be crucified. There are many arguaments to why arceus is weak, my personal opinion is that after creating the universe and spliting his power between Dialga, Palkia, Kyogre ect, also created a representation of himself, which he put into a coma to regenerate.


Yeah, though it is such a shame that it's captured by a mere mortal (if you ask me, a mere mortal would NOT be able to defeat a god, much less capture one. Heck, the persephone and pirithous myth pretty much confirmed that a mortal can NEVER capture a god. That's my rationale that Arceus, or any legendary for that matter, just aren't gods.)
That's also your opinion. ^^I repeat the above arguament. Also, this is most improtant, its a game. I don't think many kids would like the following scenario on their DS screen:
"Ash found arceus!
Go pikachu!
Arceus Obliterates Ash with mighty god powers!
Game over..."
What Im trying to say is that they couldnt give arceus all of his power as it wouldnt be realistic to play with or against, or it ould traumatise children when arceus destroys their whole team or refuses to be caught.

Well, Technically, Ho-Oh and many other legendaries might also be descended from it, if we take that family tree in "Lucario and the Mystery of Mew" into account.
Like I said, the anime often contradicts the games. The games came first so in my opinion what they say goes. But like i said, everyone's entitled to my their opinion

If you're interested in this sort of thing, check out this thread. (http://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=114650) Its basically discussing the backstory behind all pokes that have been considered legendry.

Tré
May 13th, 2008, 11:42 PM
well i think you missed something
Kanto>Mew
Jhoto>HO-oh
Hoen>Rayquaza
Sinnoh>Arceus
well that what im thinking of the region gods
but i think the over all god is arceus

El Gofre
May 13th, 2008, 11:54 PM
No, we didnt miss it. As my first post described, none of the first 3 are gods. I'll refer back to a post I wrote a while ago:
Essay time lol.....

Like i said, i go from the info we get from the games.
First came arceus
Arceus made D&P who made time and space, therefore the universe (Just a lump of dark matter at the current time)
Now Arceus had something to shove planets and stars and stuff into
Onto these planets he put more pokemon to regulate and shape them, in the case of earth;
Kyogre and groudon to form seas and landmasses
Regigigas to pull the continents into shape
The 3 Dogs to regulate fire water and thunder, and so on with all the aspects of the
planet.
At this point arceus would have either gone off and populated other planets (Dependin on if he did earth first, last or whatever) or gone to sleep up at spear pillar. Alternatively he may have created these pokes from himself, therefore stripping him of lots of power, (reducing him from a god to merely godley) so he went to sleep at spear pillar to regenerate until he was strong enough to populate the next planet along.
Now for the less concrete theories
As for the more mundane pokemon, this is the evolution bit. The world was populated by mew, a whole species of them. This would explain why it contains every piece of dna, because all pokes originated from them. Some mews lived in the sea, and evolved into water types. Others lived indesert and evolved into the grounds. Mews slowly died out apart from the one that is left, who has sustained by living in the forest of the sevii island he is found on.

Now, to explain why there is only one left. Mew is like a stem cell, all other pokemon formed from him. This would require its biomolecular make-up to be close to perfect, so its body would be so efficient cells would be replicated as soon as they were destroyed, therefore mew would not age. the only way mew would die is of starvation, or by being eaten (Perfect cells leaves no room for mutation or disease). Some mews were herbivores, but those i the sparce deserts would be carnivores. If they migrated out of the deserts, they would see other veggie mews and eat them. This surviving mew had settled on an island in the sea (The sevii one), and because it is alone mew would eat little, and because it is surrounded by water the land would be fertile and mew would have an 'everlasting' food source, therefore allowing this mew to survive until 'present day'

So while this one merrily sat around and ate, the rest of the world was affected by darwin; Evolve or die. After millions of years any pokemon recognisable as mew had gone, leaving the one we play hide and seek with.

There, done :)

Now im sure you're thinking "If kyogre and groudon are gods, why isnt rayquaza?". It's because after K&G started to kill each other, rayquaza was made to calm them down. Other than that he has no divine powers, he merely shuts the other two up. Ho-oh has taken it upon himself to protect the dogs for some reason, and Ho-oh is also seen in pokemon XD which suggests that they are a species My arguament for mew is in the above quote.

weedle_mchairybug
May 14th, 2008, 02:54 AM
That's your opinionn, but that implies the arceus in the game is the arceus. As an example, Jesus was the incarnation of god, and allowed himself to be crucified. There are many arguaments to why arceus is weak, my personal opinion is that after creating the universe and spliting his power between Dialga, Palkia, Kyogre ect, also created a representation of himself, which he put into a coma to regenerate.

That's different. Jesus allowed himself to die willingly so humanity's sins can be clensed. Arceus, on the other hand, didn't allow himself to be captured willingly. If anything, the thing was forced upon him (Otherwise, why on earth would he fight back? I mean, even Ho-Oh allowed himself to be captured without a fight, and THAT was in Pokemon Colosseum.)

That's also your opinion. ^^I repeat the above arguament. Also, this is most improtant, its a game. I don't think many kids would like the following scenario on their DS screen:
"Ash found arceus!
Go pikachu!
Arceus Obliterates Ash with mighty god powers!
Game over..."
What Im trying to say is that they couldnt give arceus all of his power as it wouldnt be realistic to play with or against, or it ould traumatise children when arceus destroys their whole team or refuses to be caught.

didn't stop the whole "Red Orb Guardian" scenario, though. (In case you're wondering what I mean, in the comic series "FoxTrot", Jason had trouble with a supposedly unbeatable boss known as The Red Orb Guardian. Paige, his sister, unwillingly decided to give it a try (because she somewhat is uninterested in games.) and she is able to "defeat" him, in a sense, but only by not even fighting him, thus, if you actually challenge him, he truly is unbeatable.)

Like I said, the anime often contradicts the games. The games came first so in my opinion what they say goes. But like i said, everyone's entitled to my their opinion

Sigh, allow me to present to you a little-known truth about the games and how often it contradicts:

Ummm... no offense, but about the Anime being the only Pokemon media to contradict itself or any other Pokemon media, the games kind of contradict themselves as well. For evidence for the games contradicting themselves,

1. The Mew entry in the researcher diary on cinnabar island stated that it gave BIRTH to Mewtwo, and yet the pokedex entry for Mewtwo said that it was more or less the result of a gene-splicing experiment, and gave absolutely no hint that it was the offspring of Mew.

2. The Pokedex entries stated that Marowak gave childbirth and dies as a result, and yet when you breed a Marowak, not only does it live after breeding, but it lays an egg.

3. Cubone's Pokedex entry states that it's skull helmet came from the remains of it's dead mom (Marowak), and yet when a cubone hatches, it also seems to be born with the skull helmet latched onto it's head.

4. Vulpix's pokedex entry stated that it was born pale and with a single tail, but when hatched from the egg, it has it's 6 tails and its normal coat.

5. Kadabra's pokedex entry hints that it was originally a human being, however, from the multitudes of Kadabra (not to mention that it can evolve into another pokemon [Alakazam], and breed to create it's pre-evo [Abra].) it doesn't really seem to be the case.

6. Mew was called the ancestor of all pokemon even in Diamond and Pearl, and yet they mentioned Arceus being the creator of all pokemon.

7. And not to mention the multitudes of legendaries despite them being genderless and one of a kind (Emerald battle frontier, anyone? or how about the Colosseum/XD games? or how about FR/LG [there is the part where Entei/Raikou/Suicune are running around Kanto despite the fact that the 3 beasts are not supposed to awake for another 3 years.]?)

I can't really say the same for the manga, but they did state that Misty was some rich lady in one manga, and yet was not mentioned to be that in the games, plus, they made some of the gym leaders rocket members (or ex rocket members, in Blane's case), when, with the exception of Giovanni, it wasn't the case at all in the games.

the point of that post is that even the Games contradict themselves, so next time you hint that the games are pure truth, remember these examples.

If you're interested in this sort of thing, check out this thread. (http://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=114650) Its basically discussing the backstory behind all pokes that have been considered legendry.

Ok, I will.

Zet
May 14th, 2008, 03:29 AM
the pokemon is an egg that turned into Acreus(sp?) which then created multiple pokemon from it's body but Giratina controls his own domain so pretty much he can't be caught also but yet the laws of pokemons say that have to be caught, like in real life the saying "what goes up must come down" so pretty much thats the case

El Gofre
May 14th, 2008, 05:30 AM
That's different. Jesus allowed himself to die willingly so humanity's sins can be clensed. Arceus, on the other hand, didn't allow himself to be captured willingly. If anything, the thing was forced upon him (Otherwise, why on earth would he fight back? I mean, even Ho-Oh allowed himself to be captured without a fight, and THAT was in Pokemon Colosseum.)

My point wasnt that arceus necersarilly allowed himself to be captured, but more that the version of arceus we know is limited to a biological form and cannot realise ithe fullest extent of its power.


didn't stop the whole "Red Orb Guardian" scenario, though. (In case you're wondering what I mean, in the comic series "FoxTrot", Jason had trouble with a supposedly unbeatable boss known as The Red Orb Guardian. Paige, his sister, unwillingly decided to give it a try (because she somewhat is uninterested in games.) and she is able to "defeat" him, in a sense, but only by not even fighting him, thus, if you actually challenge him, he truly is unbeatable.)

Im not sure what that's in reference to...

Sigh, allow me to present to you a little-known truth about the games and how often it contradicts:

1. The Mew entry in the researcher diary on cinnabar island stated that it gave BIRTH to Mewtwo, and yet the pokedex entry for Mewtwo said that it was more or less the result of a gene-splicing experiment, and gave absolutely no hint that it was the offspring of Mew.
Could I get a link to where it says that please? Im not calling you a liar, I'd just like to read them myself to see if it's open to interperatation.
2. The Pokedex entries stated that Marowak gave childbirth and dies as a result, and yet when you breed a Marowak, not only does it live after breeding, but it lays an egg.
Similar to a previous statement, I dont think the target audience of pre-teen children would appreciate their pokemon dying on them. As an example, look at this thread (http://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=129854) and imagine how kids like this would act if they got told their poke had died during childbirth lol
3. Cubone's Pokedex entry states that it's skull helmet came from the remains of it's dead mom (Marowak), and yet when a cubone hatches, it also seems to be born with the skull helmet latched onto it's head.
As above. If mom doesnt die, no skull can be taken.
4. Vulpix's pokedex entry stated that it was born pale and with a single tail, but when hatched from the egg, it has it's 6 tails and its normal coat.
Due to the problems with changing the games clock and general lack of processing power, it would not have been easy for GF to recreate this.
5. Kadabra's pokedex entry hints that it was originally a human being, however, from the multitudes of Kadabra (not to mention that it can evolve into another pokemon [Alakazam], and breed to create it's pre-evo [Abra].) it doesn't really seem to be the case.
Something being unrealistic doesnt make it a contradiction. Besides, it only needs to happen once and it can then breed into an entire species.
6. Mew was called the ancestor of all pokemon even in Diamond and Pearl, and yet they mentioned Arceus being the creator of all pokemon.
Ancestor= Old relative, there's a difference. They may of derived from mew, but arceus created mew. Its like how the first life from this planet didnt derive from anything but everything derves from it.
7. And not to mention the multitudes of legendaries despite them being genderless and one of a kind (Emerald battle frontier, anyone? or how about the Colosseum/XD games? or how about FR/LG [there is the part where Entei/Raikou/Suicune are running around Kanto despite the fact that the 3 beasts are not supposed to awake for another 3 years.]?)
That link i gave you explains how there have been multiple sightings of the dogs, Ho-oh ect. It is likely that multiples have been caught accross time. Basically in that thread it was hypothesised that many legends are extremely rare pokes, last of their species etc. The games never stated that they were one-of-a-kind, although if you can find an instance of this I'll happilly admit I'm wrong
I can't really say the same for the manga, but they did state that Misty was some rich lady in one manga, and yet was not mentioned to be that in the games,
Games came first, manga/anime was the contradiction
plus, they made some of the gym leaders rocket members (or ex rocket members, in Blane's case), when, with the exception of Giovanni, it wasn't the case at all in the games.
Games came first, manga/anime was the contradiction



the point of that post is that even the Games contradict themselves, so next time you hint that the games are pure truth, remember these examples.

Meh, your opinion. However these contradictions you have found are rather picky and don't have a large impact on the game, while if it comes to a debate such as this there would be no such problems if the anime never existed.

weedle_mchairybug
May 14th, 2008, 12:08 PM
My point wasnt that arceus necersarilly allowed himself to be captured, but more that the version of arceus we know is limited to a biological form and cannot realise ithe fullest extent of its power.

umm, considering how Pirithous couldn't even capture Persephone's human form without having his behind glued to that chair for all eternity in the whole Pirithous and Persephone myth, I don't see how that would be valid.

Im not sure what that's in reference to...

Have you read the comic strip foxtrot? because that's in reference to Foxtrot.

Could I get a link to where it says that please? Im not calling you a liar, I'd just like to read them myself to see if it's open to interperatation.

Ok, I think the Journal entry in question is on one of these four areas of the Cinnabar Mansion: The one in the room just after the stairs in the basement, the one in the northeast corner of the 2nd floor, the one in the southwest corner of that same floor, and the southwest corner of the 3rd floor. I'd say the most likely of places is the Basement one.

Similar to a previous statement, I dont think the target audience of pre-teen children would appreciate their pokemon dying on them. As an example, look at this thread and imagine how kids like this would act if they got told their poke had died during childbirth lol

Ummm, considering how they got away with the whole "Team Rocket killing Marowak" scenario and how there's gambling in Pokemon, I'd say that the pre-teen audience would handle a pokemon dying.

As above. If mom doesnt die, no skull can be taken.

ok, true

Due to the problems with changing the games clock and general lack of processing power, it would not have been easy for GF to recreate this.

I think that they can do it, considering how they currently can change day into night in the even numbered gens.

Something being unrealistic doesnt make it a contradiction. Besides, it only needs to happen once and it can then breed into an entire species.

Yes, that may be true, but the pokedex entry made it seem as though it was a relatively recent event. Heck, it's pre-evo, Abra, was never hinted at originally being a human at all.

Ancestor= Old relative, there's a difference. They may of derived from mew, but arceus created mew. Its like how the first life from this planet didnt derive from anything but everything derves from it.

Except it was said that it was the ancestor of ALL pokemon, which would imply that even ARCEUS was descended from it.

That link i gave you explains how there have been multiple sightings of the dogs, Ho-oh ect. It is likely that multiples have been caught accross time. Basically in that thread it was hypothesised that many legends are extremely rare pokes, last of their species etc. The games never stated that they were one-of-a-kind, although if you can find an instance of this I'll happilly admit I'm wrong

Well, I do personally believe that there are more than one legendary pokemon (Heck, even Dialga and Palkia could have more than one species, if their appearance in Almia is anything to go by. And, Heck, if there's more than one Dialga and Palkia, and apparantly those two are two halves of Arceus, that means there's more than one Arceus.). Plus, even WITH the whole "legendaries don't always have to stay in their region" arguement, it still doesn't make any sense for them to be one of a kind since, if they are captured, then how is it that they appear in other regions? the only one-of-a-kind legendary pokemon is Mewtwo (Mystery Dungeon doesn't count, and neither does the Pokemon Stadium games).

Also, I don't know, those seem awfully large (I mean, filling out the Pokedex is a huge asset to the game, and since some of these things are contradicted in the pokedex...)

Moana Kai
May 16th, 2008, 09:37 PM
Arceus all the way man, but the only bad thing about him though is that he's a over-rated pokemon, but he's the god of pokemon though so there's no big deal about it though.