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View Full Version : Suggestion: Serious Discussion and Debate?


Azzurra
January 27th, 2010, 04:54 AM
I honestly think that there should be a section for this here. From what I can see, the majority of users are mature enough for this kind of discussion and or debate. I'm sure that if it was introduced as well it'd have a big impact on the forum as a whole. I mean, serious issues could be talking about and not in a demeaning way - but in a more serious, more adult way.

I'd love it if you guys considered this at least.

King Goodra
January 27th, 2010, 05:00 AM
I've always wanted a forum for more serious discussion on more heated topics. Not nesicarrily inappropriate like the Dome allotted, but a place in a separate forum than Other Chat that housed more mature discussions where people could debate the topics civilly. Unfortunately, to put it bluntly, some of PC members aren't the brightest and most mature bulbs in the box. It's unfortunate because the amount of people I believe who could hold their own in these kinds of discussions are the minority compared to those I don't believe can.

But you have to remember that PokéCommunity, above all, is a forum directed towards children and pre-teens, due to the nature of what Pokémon is. I think the reason why there are so many older people is because we grew up in that generation and that's why so many of us are still here today (that is, among other reasons like friendships).

I do remember higher staff stating that if there were a sufficient amount of threads posted in Other Chat that can be classified as serious discussions and debates, that a sub-forum or a forum on its own would be considered.

But I want this to happen as well.

Peeky Chew
January 27th, 2010, 05:02 AM
I'd be very interested, since right now that stuff has to go in off topic and barely anyone would notice that. It would have to have serious discussions though, you don't want someone debating, for example, what to eat...
@Aladdin: Well there never is going to be enough serious discussions in off topic since nobody will be looking there for them. There would be enough serious discussions if there was an actual forum for it. So in the end, we might as well try it and see what happens, it doesn't have to be very active to be worth while.

Azzurra
January 27th, 2010, 05:04 AM
I'd be very interested, since right now that stuff has to go in off topic and barely anyone would notice that. It would have to have serious discussions though, you don't want someone debating, for example, what to eat...
On the contrary, lifestyle could actually be a brilliant topic to start things off with. That is, if you're mature enough to discuss it maturely. But, we still need to wait for feedback from the higher staff before this is considered. It's great that I've got a couple of fellow members agreeing with me though, and I thank you for that.

King Goodra
January 27th, 2010, 05:05 AM
I'd be very interested, since right now that stuff has to go in off topic and barely anyone would notice that. It would have to have serious discussions though, you don't want someone debating, for example, what to eat...
If it were to happen, I'm quite positive that it would be one of the most heavily moderated forums in the community. Not necessarily with more moderators, but with a lot more rules and guidelines to follow than that of Other Chat, or Other Voting Polls, for example. I'm sure that the consequences for breaking the guidelines would be a lot more impactful and would be less tolerable of rule breakers as well, which is a good thing considering the nature of the forum.

So I don't think things like that would be a problem. Besides, those can easily be moved to Other Chat if it isn't exactly serious. But with all the things going on in the world today (despite some getting better) there's a lot to be said and a lot that needs to be said.

Jubilation
January 27th, 2010, 05:07 AM
I agree with this 100%, I was on my school debating team and love to debate :3

King Goodra
January 27th, 2010, 05:32 AM
@Aladdin: Well there never is going to be enough serious discussions in off topic since nobody will be looking there for them. There would be enough serious discussions if there was an actual forum for it. So in the end, we might as well try it and see what happens, it doesn't have to be very active to be worth while.

The off topic forums is where they belong. Why wouldn't any one be looking for them there? That doesn't make any sense. For a long time, Other Chat has proven to house debates on the occasion and some of them end up to be rather successful. It's a shame that they often end up the same, though, getting out of hand and ending up getting locked because most people don't understand the concept of debating and like to make things personal. And Other Chat is the forum for it at the moment.

On the contrary, lifestyle could actually be a brilliant topic to start things off with. That is, if you're mature enough to discuss it maturely. But, we still need to wait for feedback from the higher staff before this is considered. It's great that I've got a couple of fellow members agreeing with me though, and I thank you for that.
It's not going to be considered until there's proof that its necessary, unless one of the higher staff members really agree with you and put their limbs out to make this happen. The majority of the higher staff have to agree on this, after all. More likely than not, its not going to happen. Not any time soon, anyway. :(

Peeky Chew
January 27th, 2010, 05:39 AM
The off topic forums is where they belong. Why wouldn't any one be looking for them there? That doesn't make any sense. For a long time, Other Chat has proven to house debates on the occasion and some of them end up to be rather successful. It's a shame that they often end up the same, though, getting out of hand and ending up getting locked because most people don't understand the concept of debating and like to make things personal. And Other Chat is the forum for it at the moment.I meant that since most of the topics there aren't debates and, like you said people don't take it seriously and it gets locked, people aren't going to bother looking for a debate or even make a new one. If there was a forum dedicated to it then anyone less inclined to post/create a thread would be a lot more likely too.

Zet
January 27th, 2010, 05:42 AM
While it would be good to see a serious discussion forum, you have to remember that a large amount of members here are just kids and wouldn't really be able to provide a full discussion for various topics and would just result in spam and flame wars. It would be like the reputation system without the reputation system, lot's of reports about "abuse" and other such nonsense would arise and will eventually lead to the removal of the forum.

Peeky Chew
January 27th, 2010, 05:48 AM
It may seem a little strange, and I have no idea if it would be possible to do, or even help at all, but maybe implement a post restriction so only people with 100+ posts could reply and ones with 200+ create a new thread?

Went
January 27th, 2010, 07:34 AM
But you can go on HG/SS and make 100 posts by saying "Brock is my favourite Gym Leader :)" (example). Using postcount to prove maturity would be a suicide in some cases.

This idea already came up a few times last year, and the reply from the Higher Staff, as I think Nick said, was that said threads would go in OC until we had a big enough demand to warrant a dedicate subforum. Because Other Chast is for "all these threads and topics that don't belong in any other forums", and that includes all kind of debate threads :(

Feign
January 27th, 2010, 08:24 AM
I like the idea too. People take it OT though, only because they either feel they identify too well to the topic (thus bring in their emotions) or not at all (which can sometimes lead to trolling).

Not to mention the people who get easily offended (shame on them!).

It's so rare to see a good debate on the internet, if it can be done here, that would be awesome. Of course that may warrant a larger mod presence which I am inclined to think, no mod is up to.

Netto Azure
January 27th, 2010, 08:45 AM
I already had this proposed WAAAAYYY long time ago. Another member brought it up 2 years ago, etc.

The usual defense is "OH NOEZ IT WILL BE TEH SPAMZORZ"

But nooooo they keep on saying "Keep in it OC, what's the problem with OC?"

Without realizing it's weird to see OC filled with whatever.

PokemonLeagueChamp
January 27th, 2010, 08:49 AM
It won't work. I've seen this implemented on Serebii, and trolling and flame-warring run rampant in their Debate section. Granted, the moderators here are far less ignorant and hit hard any rulebreakers, but a Debate section is bound to lead to flaming, trolling, spamming, and the resulting banhammer.

Feign
January 27th, 2010, 08:52 AM
It won't work. I've seen this implemented on Serebii, and trolling and flame-warring run rampant in their Debate section. Granted, the moderators here are far less ignorant and hit hard any rulebreakers, but a Debate section is bound to lead to flaming, trolling, spamming, and the resulting banhammer.

It would be good to thin out the stupidity and ignorance though. Some people though, that since they can't take the heat of the topic, will take it out on the debater themselves, it really is quite sad...

Peeky Chew
January 27th, 2010, 09:00 AM
It won't work. I've seen this implemented on Serebii, and trolling and flame-warring run rampant in their Debate section. Granted, the moderators here are far less ignorant and hit hard any rulebreakers, but a Debate section is bound to lead to flaming, trolling, spamming, and the resulting banhammer.What's wrong with taking the "banhammer" out? You end up with less spam forum wide in the end.

parallelzero
January 27th, 2010, 09:05 AM
If I've learned anything from the course of PC's history, it's that you can't take a Pokemon forum and make any addition that comes to mind work. If you want to go somewhere with a debate forum, go there. But, as it stands, there will never be one here.

It's true, we encourage that debates go in Other Chat. But, you know what? Almost all of the time, threads with a debatable nature end up closed eventually, because people can't handle the discussion maturely. PC's immature populace far outnumbers the mature one, so I can't fathom how this could possibly work without banning a good portion of the userbase. x.x

Netto Azure
January 27th, 2010, 10:07 AM
If I've learned anything from the course of PC's history, it's that you can't take a Pokemon forum and make any addition that comes to mind work. If you want to go somewhere with a debate forum, go there. But, as it stands, there will never be one here.

It's true, we encourage that debates go in Other Chat. But, you know what? Almost all of the time, threads with a debatable nature end up closed eventually, because people can't handle the discussion maturely. PC's immature populace far outnumbers the mature one, so I can't fathom how this could possibly work without banning a good portion of the userbase. x.x

The thing is I just find it weird to see rational discussions flooded by "whatever" threads in OC. I mean seeing the usual "End of the World" threads alongside the Haiti Catastrophe one is just. >______>

THIRTY-SIX
January 27th, 2010, 10:10 AM
The thing is I just find it weird to see rational discussions flooded by "whatever" threads in OC. I mean seeing the usual "End of the World" threads alongside the Haiti Catastrophe one is just. >______>
Seeing TCTI and DLTMS0 stickied and next to each other makes me go. >________>

Netto Azure
January 27th, 2010, 10:16 AM
The thing is I just find it weird to see rational discussions flooded by "whatever" threads in OC. I mean seeing the usual "End of the World" threads alongside the Haiti Catastrophe one is just. >______>
Seeing TCTI and DLTMS0 stickied and next to each other makes me go. >________>

Pffttt...One is for the LEETZ the other for the Poor guys. XD

parallelzero
January 27th, 2010, 10:25 AM
The thing is I just find it weird to see rational discussions flooded by "whatever" threads in OC. I mean seeing the usual "End of the World" threads alongside the Haiti Catastrophe one is just. >______>

Well our members are immature, but they aren't stupid enough to not be able to tell the difference between something srs and something not. I don't think because something annoys you as an individual is justification to do something like add another forum. XD;


Pffttt...One is for the LEETZ the other for the Poor guys. XD

Maybe you people in TCTI should stop being such "Poor guys" then. =x

THIRTY-SIX
January 27th, 2010, 10:26 AM
… My point being why would your opinion of both threads not be equal? They both can be discussed maturely… but then again you just displayed an example of how we can't have a debate forum.

Feign
January 27th, 2010, 10:33 AM
What's so bad about banning the immature users?

You gotta love the subtle debaters though, that eventually stick out to the ad hominem.

Netto Azure
January 27th, 2010, 10:59 AM
… My point being why would your opinion of both threads not be equal? They both can be discussed maturely… but then again you just displayed an example of how we can't have a debate forum.

Yes they can. But the problem is the issue usually stems from a premise that cannot be quantified. :/

Avey
January 27th, 2010, 11:25 AM
If I've learned anything from the course of PC's history, it's that you can't take a Pokemon forum and make any addition that comes to mind work. If you want to go somewhere with a debate forum, go there. But, as it stands, there will never be one here.

It's true, we encourage that debates go in Other Chat. But, you know what? Almost all of the time, threads with a debatable nature end up closed eventually, because people can't handle the discussion maturely. PC's immature populace far outnumbers the mature one, so I can't fathom how this could possibly work without banning a good portion of the userbase. x.x

Let me first point out that he's just hit the nail on this one. There have been multiple suggestions for a debating forum since the ThunderDome was shut down and all of them have been denied. Sure, we'd all love somewhere we can debate and behave like intelligent, civil members of society, but the points against those who are pro-debating are much more obvious and much more logical.

Secondly, there is a way to ensure no one gets banned if this were to go through. Every single time this has been suggested, members have thought of a way of making sure people who are unable to debate, don't get a chance to. Age? Post count? Nah, neither of those really count; they don't personify maturity. Personal opinion from staff members? But that would take too much effort. There are hundreds of active members on PC; how much do you reckon are mature enough for a debating forum? Too much for admins to constantly be switching around users' permissions, right? Exactly. I wouldn't have the willpower to do it; I don't think anyone else would when the obvious solution is 'let's keep it in Other Chat'.

The Cynic
January 27th, 2010, 02:00 PM
Certainly is a fantastic idea! Iwas thinking of starting a number of threads in other chat entitled

"Cynical" Debate: ....

It would be for serious debate only. But a proper serious discussion forum would be invigorating as well! I'm going to go through with my idea in the meantime.

Yoshimi
January 27th, 2010, 02:04 PM
We should totally have this, since 13 year old rom hackers on a Pokemon site are experts in subjects like religion or economics.
Seriously, if you want to debate, you can just use MSN :\

Andrea-chan
January 27th, 2010, 02:23 PM
You guys aren't going to get this for the sole reason that PC as a whole isn't mature enough to handle a debate/mature forum.
"Oh yes, we're mature enough. All you got to do is put 5 Mods in there to watch over it", "We can't talk about it in OC, we need our own forum", "I'm 17, I know how to keep my cool in a debate". This topic comes up every now and then, for some reason people think they're mature enough to be in a debate/mature forum. Just to give you guys an example of how mature the PC members are..... we had to remove rep and replace it with post comments because people on PC would get in little groups and mass bad rep people they didn't like, and give good rep to people in their little group. And this was something as small as little green dots on your posts. And people think the members are mature enough for their own debate forum?

Netto Azure
January 27th, 2010, 02:45 PM
Wow, I can see when someone is describing me. ._.

Honest
January 27th, 2010, 03:12 PM
Other Chat.

In there, we can talk about 'serious' things. Like the incident on Haiti, for example. But there's nothing wrong with heartfelt, just for fun topics as well. They both belong there.

.Bullet
January 27th, 2010, 03:30 PM
I don't mean to be blunt, and I simply need to ask this. Why is it difficult to keep debate topics in Other Chat? The forum description states that that forum is for all other topics that don't really have a specific place in other forums.

If it doesn't really have a place to go, and it's not something that happens often enough to warrant its own forum, then Other Chat is the appropriate place for such topics.

Melody
January 31st, 2010, 01:32 PM
Hah. This is so true. Most of our members are like that sadly, so having a debate sub-forum would definitely devolve into the same spam pit that the ThunderDome did back in the day. No matter how strictly we moderate it, we cannot stop the masses of jerks who flame for fun, nor can we stop honest members from giving someone a good lambasting on one of their bad days via this subforum. This is simply a reality of the internet, and the staff and a goodly portion of sensible members, wish to keep these sorts of people away from PC.

PC is bad enough as it is when it comes to drama, I know that for a fact. Such is reality, that drama of this sort is unavoidable, but it's at a tolerable level now.

Therefore I do respect the staff's opinion of this idea, and I even recognize that despite it being a well intentioned idea, our member base simply can't effectively utilize it without causing PC to heat up by 20 or 30 degrees.

Part of the edge that PC has over other forums of it's size class is, that it's tropically pleasant weather all the time, meaning that despite all the drama that does go on, it's not so bad that you feel as if you have to act like a "extreme donkey" to be treated decently.

With all that being said, I'll give some canon advice. If you seriously wish to have some serious debate ability, you could convince a few VIP members to donate some blog entries to whatever you want to debate about, and use those to actively debate with people...within PC rules of course. That and having the hosting member act as an aggressive moderator for the discussion. It's definitely doable, and it could easily be done within a social group as well. Small efforts such as this have a much lower chance of attracting immature attention, and word of mouth can spread amongst intellectuals, thus allowing each person to invite people they know as mature to join the discussion. All of this can be done without troubling the staff overmuch about worrying about how it will affect PC's image, because it's happening in the background, instead of out in a public venue such as a subforum.

Lie Ren
January 31st, 2010, 01:56 PM
I don't have a huge opinion on this, but I will say that.. heated debate areas rarely go well on any forum, let alone on PC. I say that because most of PC's users are younger, and I can see more harm than good coming out of a debate area on here. People start fighting, hating on eachother, and omg.. the reports that area would get. :/

Forums that do have debate areas that deal with such wide areas of issues often tend to just tick me off when I wander into them. Can't speak for everyone, but it's just the general aura of those types of areas that make me want to stay away from them. I think there would be too much fighting, and that's more work for the h-staff.

Sorry to say, but I can see it becoming a little like Gaia's debate area.. and that's a scary thought. xD;