Choices... So Many Choices

"It has been said that something as small as the flutter of a butterfly's wing can ultimately cause a typhoon halfway around the world."
- Chaos Theory


We all make choices everyday, whether it is to sleep 5 more minutes or eat cereal instead of eggs and sausage. Those choices affect our lives in greater amounts than you can imagine. Now in a typical Pokemon game, the storyline is very linear, its always the same results, you beat the elite four and become the champion. Now the game gives you a false sense of control with certain dialogues, that let you choose yes or no, but you all know it will not change the storyline at all. Like in Pokemon Sapphire and Ruby, in the beginning, Professor Birch asks you to go visit May, I remember saying "No" dozens of times, but he keeps repeating the question. It will only get out of the loop if you say "Yes". Now doesn't that suck? Or imagine when you DON'T save the professor, that will change the story quite a bit. Now imagine a game where you truly make decisions that will affect the storyline dramatically. We can go indept into the specifics, but I am just throwing this out there. Anyone play Elder Scroll 4: Oblivion? Or even Morrowind? They have a disposition system that the NPCs will like you better if your disposition is higher, that can affect game play. The merchant might cut you a little slack and sell you the product cheaper, or the guard will not kill you if you resist arrest. Now those do not dramatically change the story, but in Dragon Age Origins, they do. They have dialogues and most give your 2 to 5 or 6 responses to choose from. They also affect if certain members of your party like you better or worse, which can also lead to relationships. Having certain people join your party or not changes game play, your race and job and origin changes everything. Now that would truly make a game stand out: a dynamic storyline. That adds replay value; you can restart the game and see what would happen if you did this instead of the other one. That would add much more dept than what starter you chose, it can be what home town you chose, what gender affects you, even can go into what age/job, the usual "10 year old new trainer" or you can choose to be the professor or even join a gang. There are so many possibilities.

Adding On To That:
I believe in communities, everything gets done better when everyone pitches in. I think this is more than possible as a community project. People have to realize the potential a community has, like the old sticks parable. A single stick will break easily but a bundle of sticks will not. I don't think 10 people teams will not suffice, but with good coordination, team of 100 can work.

Discuss:

Problem is, that isn't very "Pokemon-ish"...

Sure that would be great and all, but it wouldn't feel like a Pokemon game, it would feel like final fantasy with pokemon thrown in.

I'm not saying that's bad at all, it just doesn't have the same feel like it should.

thepsynergist said:

Problem is, that isn't very "Pokemon-ish"...

Sure that would be great and all, but it wouldn't feel like a Pokemon game, it would feel like final fantasy with pokemon thrown in.

I'm not saying that's bad at all, it just doesn't have the same feel like it should.

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Now, don't get me wrong here, Pokemon was a great series, but it lacked the depth that I believe the cartoon provided, I remember when I was young, the cartoons got me hooked, to the point I would imagine I am Ash (sounds corny I know, I remember the 2nd episode with the Pidgeys, I almost teared up when Ash hugged Pikachu) but the games lacked that. It gave you no freedom other than your party and your name... Which does not affect the game at all. It should connect to the players, if you can make your own choices, it adds another dimension. Its not the problem of it not being "pokemon" like. It still can have the pokemon game feel, just a lot more freedom. Can be like the Mystery Dungeon series from what I am aware of (your actions change the story doesnt it? Never played it). It can flawlessly be implemented in a pokemon game, just needs work and people will ned to adjust and think about your dicisions.

Everyone would want something different. I wouldn't want to join something in which I didn't like the idea.

I really like story lines that are powered by moral choices the player has to make. As well it adds to a high level of re playability that most games don't really offer. And i feel that Pokemon would be a good game to have this as would most RPG's. Im always really peeved that you can't select no to any of those sorts of questions in Pokemon. oh yeah and having played both Pokemon Mystery Dungeon 1 and 2 i can tell you that the story dosn't change based on choices.

Another thread from davidthefat complaining about how we fans make our fangames.

You're talking mainly about large-scale changes to the game, altering the entire plot based on the decisions the player makes. That's a big thing to do, and each alternate plot amounts to inventing another half of the entire game. Most fans simply don't want to spend their time making these alternate paths. For them, game-making is a hobby. That's probably the main reason you don't see more "multiple path" fangames - they're just harder to make.

On the other hand, you can more easily have small-scale changes in the game, such as an NPC's dialogue depending on your gender, or an NPC giving you just one chance to pick the right option (e.g. the correct answer gains you a Tyrogue). The problem with the small-scale changes is that players may feel cheated out of potential rewards/feel obliged to follow the walkthrough rather than play for themselves. After all, it's not as though it's a different story - they're just missing out on some things, and that can be seen as a dick thing for the game to do.

Of course, there are a few Pokémon fangames knocking around that boast fame factors and role choices. They're in the minority because they're so much harder to make than a basic story. A lot of people like the simplicity of following a predetermined story rather than putting one together themselves.

Choices that already exist in the games include the choice of starter (which affects the rival's team), choice of the rest of your party, movesets, and "minor" things like that. That's what most fangames stick to because the creator isn't a professional team of game developers working full-time for money.

Feel free to make your own fangame, davidthefat, with all the things you keep telling us to do, and show us how easy it is.

lx_theo said:

Everyone would want something different. I wouldn't want to join something in which I didn't like the idea.

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That's very much the main point. If each stick in the bundle has a different idea of what the bundle should do, it's going to end up doing nothing and/or splintering off into smaller bundles.

The next best thing would be a list of suggestions of features people might include in their game. The problem with this, though, is that most people want to keep their ideas to themselves, not to mention that some of the suggestions will be as detailed as "have a dual screen" or "real time Pokémon battles". Hardly useful.

If you'd actually script an entire game (and when I say script, I mean write out the entire storyline, plan what's going to happen in certain scenes and areas, etc.), you'd realize how time consuming it really is. I should know, I'm scripting my non-fangame as I speak, and it's taking ages to get everything right (and that's with no branching storyline). But to add a storyline based off of decisions not only takes much more time, it can sometimes be difficult coming up with logical scenarios based on your choices. I could possibly see a game with three branched endings based off of decisions made in game, but still, the storyline would follow the same path until the end.

As Maruno said, with proper balancing, small-scale decisions are a possibility. When I say balanced, though, I mean that the choice isn't overwhelmingly unfair if you choose the wrong one. One example of this is the "Extreme Speed Dratini" in G/S. Also, as I suggested before, decisions made in the game could just merely influence the ending of the game. These decisions would be big ones, to be sure, but there is no true importance, other than getting a different ending.

But really, has a Pokémon title ever been about the story? No. It's been about collecting monsters, battling friends, and playing the game the way you want to. I mean, Nintendo makes the character silent for a reason. So you, the player, can imagine what you are saying in the game. And you are also given the choice of your party, starter, whether you want to compete in contests or the Pokéathalon, and so on. Even in Ruby and Sapphire, you were given a choice as to which team you wanted to help (so long as you knew which game to get, of course). So, like I said, it's up to you to decide how to play. There's a major decision right there.

Finally, a team of 100? that's a little over-the-top for a fandev group. In fact, the original Dragon Quest was made by a small group, I think it was between 15-20 people. Because there would be little to no central structure, not only would there be disagreements, there would also be work that goes undone, while some work is made by a few people at the same time. To make a group of 100 for a fandev group would probably be disastrous, not to mention I don't think there are even 100 active developers on these boards.

Not to mention that the only major plot-affecting choices you can have in a game are those that will lead down interesting and playable paths. For example, you can't have the choice "Do you want to become a Pokémon Trainer?", only to have the player stuck in their home town forever (because of tall grass) just because they said "no".

You should specifically plan from the start to make a game with multiple paths, because trying to force them in afterwards just won't work well. And again, people don't because it's much more work, and because the reason most people make their fangames is because they have a story to tell (i.e. one path).

A game where you can be a jerk to everyone.

Sign me up.

many good games that I've played, only have one storyline... but all the suckish games that I play have more than one plot line. I'm making a game as we speak, and I know that multiple plots is both dangerous (as in corrupting your game project with too much data) and time-consuming (as programming is HARD!)
also, since multiple plots are so damn hard, the programmer doesn't have the motivation to put in too much effort and makes the game suckish.

In other words, don't think about yourself, think about the programmer that is making the games for you!

Maruno said:

Another thread from davidthefat complaining about how we fans make our fangames.

You're talking mainly about large-scale changes to the game, altering the entire plot based on the decisions the player makes. That's a big thing to do, and each alternate plot amounts to inventing another half of the entire game. Most fans simply don't want to spend their time making these alternate paths. For them, game-making is a hobby. That's probably the main reason you don't see more "multiple path" fangames - they're just harder to make.

On the other hand, you can more easily have small-scale changes in the game, such as an NPC's dialogue depending on your gender, or an NPC giving you just one chance to pick the right option (e.g. the correct answer gains you a Tyrogue). The problem with the small-scale changes is that players may feel cheated out of potential rewards/feel obliged to follow the walkthrough rather than play for themselves. After all, it's not as though it's a different story - they're just missing out on some things, and that can be seen as a dick thing for the game to do.

Of course, there are a few Pokémon fangames knocking around that boast fame factors and role choices. They're in the minority because they're so much harder to make than a basic story. A lot of people like the simplicity of following a predetermined story rather than putting one together themselves.

Choices that already exist in the games include the choice of starter (which affects the rival's team), choice of the rest of your party, movesets, and "minor" things like that. That's what most fangames stick to because the creator isn't a professional team of game developers working full-time for money.

Feel free to make your own fangame, davidthefat, with all the things you keep telling us to do, and show us how easy it is.



That's very much the main point. If each stick in the bundle has a different idea of what the bundle should do, it's going to end up doing nothing and/or splintering off into smaller bundles.

The next best thing would be a list of suggestions of features people might include in their game. The problem with this, though, is that most people want to keep their ideas to themselves, not to mention that some of the suggestions will be as detailed as "have a dual screen" or "real time Pokémon battles". Hardly useful.

Click to expand...

You know what, I would really appreciate it if you change your choice of words, I am not complaining, but merely presenting a potential idea that would benefit all the fan games if they choose to implement it. I do not see how this is complaining at all

I am aware of how time consuming it is, that is why I presented the idea of open sourcing. How do you think the Linux community pulls it off? The bugs in the system get fixed very quickly because there are hundreds of people working for the same cause. Personally I feel that you are taking the "devil's advocate" here, the usual position that I took previously.

You do tend to act as if there are hundreds of users working on games here. In reality, there are a core of a few dozen who actually have the skills and take the time to work on them, and they all have their own ideas for what they want to do. Suggesting that we could have an "open source" system is crazy, and wouldn't work on a community like this. There just aren't enough people to pull off these huge idealistic plans you have.

I'm with you that Maruno's response was a bit barbed, but he is talking sense. You'd also do well not to rise to personal attacks. However, saying that this would benefit "all" the fangames is the kind of thing that's earned you a slightly poor reputation in these discussions. You tend to exaggerate the importance of your own proposals, and you come across as arrogant. Just saying.

davidthefat said:

You know what, I would really appreciate it if you change your choice of words, I am not complaining, but merely presenting a potential idea that would benefit all the fan games if they choose to implement it. I do not see how this is complaining at all

I am aware of how time consuming it is, that is why I presented the idea of open sourcing. How do you think the Linux community pulls it off? The bugs in the system get fixed very quickly because there are hundreds of people working for the same cause. Personally I feel that you are taking the "devil's advocate" here, the usual position that I took previously.

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Counter-statements are for the sentences in red. o-o

• But it's already been discussed in above posts. It won't benefit all games. In fact, judging from the pints that have been made, it would in fact hinder the majority of the games.
• Linux Community... Poké Community... Linux ... Poké... Something's a bit off with this comparison. ._.
• There aren't 50 serious game developers in this category, and even then they wouldn't be working for the same cause. It's a fan game. There's no pay, no great reward for helping, and usually - if anything, a group member will want to appear in the story's plot somewhere, even if for a cameo appearance. Now tell me if an official game will involve you meeting a character named UberFishStick007. No one is going to help out with something like that unless it was their job, or their only life.
  
• Maruno can't be the devil's advocate. ._. He helps too many people in this forum for that job. He's openly expressed his opinions with his own words, something you do just the same. You have no right to call him anything. I mean, aside from your 1st amendment, but constitution is no reason to be cocky, good sir.

Colbex said:

Counter-statements are for the sentences in red. o-o

• But it's already been discussed in above posts. It won't benefit all games. In fact, judging from the pints that have been made, it would in fact hinder the majority of the games.
• Linux Community... Poké Community... Linux ... Poké... Something's a bit off with this comparison. ._.
• There aren't 50 serious game developers in this category, and even then they wouldn't be working for the same cause. It's a fan game. There's no pay, no great reward for helping, and usually - if anything, a group member will want to appear in the story's plot somewhere, even if for a cameo appearance. Now tell me if an official game will involve you meeting a character named UberFishStick007. No one is going to help out with something like that unless it was their job, or their only life.
  
• Maruno can't be the devil's advocate. ._. He helps too many people in this forum for that job. He's openly expressed his opinions with his own words, something you do just the same. You have no right to call him anything. I mean, aside from your 1st amendment, but constitution is no reason to be cocky, good sir.

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Do you know what the term "devil's advocate" is? It is someone that deliberately takes the other side of the discussion. Its not an insult, I consider myself one too. Also with your third point, I see that has no facts backing that up, it is your opinion that you assume people want their names in the game, also I see hundreds of so called "games" on this site, now are you just insulting those said developers that they aren't real developers? Now when I take that stance, it seems like Im the devil, now I find that contradictory. So you are saying comparing to a very successful community is not a valid point? People on this site are constantly comparing to Game Freak, the creators of the Pokemon Games. How would it hinder the gameplay at all? It will put more work on the developers, but if the game judged based on how much work the developers did, not unless it relfects the end product. People judge games based on the end product, so I see no where it would hinder it.

I still think this is a good idea, but with Pokecommunity's track record for completing any game, let alone a game of this scale, is pretty dismal at best. This is a great idea, but I don't see anyone here going to put down 3-4 years of their life to this, just to realize that it will never get done.

"[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Do not learn from your mistakes, learn from the mistakes of others so that you do not make any."--Sean Karsten[/FONT]
"If you're not making mistakes, you're not taking risks, and that means you're not going anywhere. The key is to make mistakes faster than the competition, so you have more changes to learn and win."--John W. Holt, Jr. (Celebrate Your Mistakes)

Success is not a destination it's a journey

First off, putting quotes on top of posts does not make them any smarter. ;D

Second, sure, a game with dialogue trees and branching paths and multiple endings is very fun in theory, but look at it from a dev standpoint: every branch of the tree has its own dialogue and scripts, and subsequent choices will increase the number of branches off of that branch exponentially, leading to literally hundreds of different scripts by the time you reach the first gym badge (or not). Okay, sure, this is kind of oversimplified, and there's probably more elegant ways to do this (karma points or what have you, or just fewer numbers of choices... but that minimizes the "freedom" that you are trying to create.) Plot-oriented games lend themselves more towards limited options; the sheer amount of work required to make a sandbox game such as the one you are describing is the reason why most game storylines are fairly linear.

Also, on the 100-man dev team idea? First off, good luck finding 99 volunteers. Second, here's a quote for you:

"Too many cooks spoil the broth."
~Author Unknown

The most successful fangames and hacks I've seen come from one or two determined developers, such as Pokemon Raptor or Neo-Dragon's Pokemon Silk or Baro's Quartz or Zel's ShinyGold or what have you. And the most disappointing failures? Take Acanthite, a fangame with a massive number of supporters that's been up for years and hasn't gotten anything done because all their time is devoted to internal bickering.

No thanks. c:

davidthefat said:

You know what, I would really appreciate it if you change your choice of words, I am not complaining, but merely presenting a potential idea that would benefit all the fan games if they choose to implement it. I do not see how this is complaining at all

I am aware of how time consuming it is, that is why I presented the idea of open sourcing. How do you think the Linux community pulls it off? The bugs in the system get fixed very quickly because there are hundreds of people working for the same cause. Personally I feel that you are taking the "devil's advocate" here, the usual position that I took previously.

Click to expand...

I took care to not actually flame with that one sentence, although I did mean how I said it. As Colbex said, you claim your idea will definitely improve games, and I simply don't believe that is true. I took issue with your attitude, and made a brief and polite reference to it. Take it how you will. The rest of my post was simply my opinion on your idea, not an attack.

I pride myself on being able to see at least several points of view in any argument, and often play Devil's advocate for the sake of it. Not here, though - I made my opinions clear.

I'm with the others in their responses regarding the Linux comparison and game completion track record and all that. See what they said.

Personally, I'm not that keen on multiple path games, particularly in fangames that I'll probably never even play once, let alone enough times to get all the endings. Fangames should be simple, in my opinion, and offer everything up front. That, along with the aforementioned complexity of multiple path games, are why I'm against suggesting this idea to the masses of this fan forum. Though if you can make it work, please don't let me stop you, of course.

Well keep this in mind, Innovate, not imitate

Don't post game idea in here.
The section will get cluttered if everyone put their random ideas in here.