PDA

View Full Version : Being bullied? Just act less gay, advise teachers


Zet
November 2nd, 2011, 03:04 AM
Oh damn, they did not just say that~
source (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-24004687-being-bullied-just-act-less-gay-advise-teachers.do)

Schoolchildren bullied over their sexuality are being advised by teachers to act "less gay," it emerged today.

The shocking claim has been made by pupils in a report on bullying in schools in Essex.

Teenagers who are picked on for their appearance told how they were advised to wear their hair differently if they wanted to avoid being teased.

The document also reveals teachers are insensitive to the needs of bullied youngsters and claims some educators had received "very little" training in dealing with the challenges they face.

The "Anti-Bullying Work" report, based on evidence gathered from more than 250 teachers and pupils, has been compiled by Essex County Council.

The author of the report, Julie Keating, stated there was "anecdotal evidence of students being told to act less gay or to wear their hair differently as teachers felt they were making themselves a target for bullies".

The report says: "Teachers received very little training at college around bullying and most would welcome additional support and guidance. The school where the "act less gay" comments were made is not named, but the council has called on teachers to think hard about their advice.

According to the Equalities and Human Rights Commission, two thirds of lesbian, gay and transgender students had suffered bullying, and 17 per cent had received death threats.

The claims made in the report have angered anti-bullying and gay rights campaigners.

Jordan Newell, a gay rights campaigner, said: "I am incredibly shocked by this report. It is incredibly stark and paints a picture that teachers are holding up their hands and not trying to defend pupils who are expressing their differences."

The National Union of Teachers labeled the comments made to pupils as "inappropriate".

An Essex County Council spokeswoman said: "The council takes bullying very seriously and would hope all teachers are sensible in giving the right advice to pupils."

It said the report will go towards an anti-bullying information pack, which will be given to trainees.


Do you think these teachers will be able to get away with this?

Do you think these teachers have the right to say this to students that are gay?

Do you think these teachers have the right to say this to students that aren't gay?

Do you think that kids should dress more "normal"

Do you think that kids should also have "normal" haircuts


I found out about this article while stalking imgur. At first I thought it had to be some kind of joke that was photoshopped but a quick Google search lead to a more shocking result than I wanted.

From the article I sense that the teachers have stopped trying to stop bullying and are trying to find a "simple" way to stop it by saying that kids shouldn't dress in a certain way or have a certain haircut that are deemed "gay". I'm against bullying in all forms since I was bullied for a while in high school. I don't know why I was bullied, I don't know if I was the only person that bully bullied around, but I didn't have any sort of haircut that would make me "gay" in anyway or even dressed since everyone had to wear school uniforms(except teachers and administration staff). Now I do know these teachers have a right to their own beliefs, but telling a kid to dress less gay is definitely not the way to stop bullying or even help a kid who is being bullied.

I personally think that these teachers shouldn't be given a slap on the wrist since who are we to judge the way someone dresses(and have a certain haircut), everyone is free to find the way that look good to themselves. And I don't see anyone telling them not to dress gay if something looks bad on them :/
I think that no one should tell a kid to not dress in a certain way(and have a certain hair style) just because it looks "gay", and regardless of gender as well since some straight men wear pink shirts. It doesn't even help in the first place, and I'm not sure if would only make things worse. And as for acting gay, how does one even act gay? sure you can tell if they say they're attracted to the same sex but why should that even matter?

Mr. X
November 2nd, 2011, 04:13 AM
So, instead of students acting happy they want them to act depressed and/or angry? Something tells me that depression and anger will lead to more bullying.

*End sarcastic, yet technically true, statement*

Anyway,

Do you think these teachers will be able to get away with this?

Short term, yes. Once more people hear of this, or a celebrity takes offence at this, then these teachers will either change their tune or find themselves fired.

Do you think these teachers have the right to say this to students that are gay?

Do they have the right to call them ******s? In the context that these words will be used, they mean the same thing.

That said, they are paid to teach these students the skills needed for life. Not to label them. Am I the only one here who thinks that these people should do... you know, what they are paid to do?

Do you think these teachers have the right to say this to students that aren't gay?

Same as above.

Do you think that kids should dress more "normal"?

Should they get rid of their individuality? To me, the answer to these two questions are the same. No.

Do you think that kids should also have "normal" haircuts

Again, as above.

FreakyLocz14
November 2nd, 2011, 06:52 AM
"Remember those shootings in the USA in school? How about Cleveland School massacre, that ring a bell? It was that sort of 'advice' those two boys received for being bullied and picked on.

Then as I recall...they walked in and shot up the school; honestly if you ask me that place had it coming since the best they could 'do' was tell them to act less gothic or emotional. Well if you do not read your history to well skip forward to the Columbine massacre; 16 dead/wounded from picking two guys calling them 'sissy' and 'fag'.

Oh need more reminders? Red Lake Senior High School, Virgina Tech, and École Polytechnique (in Canada). This all could have been avoided if the bullying had been stopped when it was reported...but nope the victims turned shooters were told the same thing 'ignore it, act less whatever' so I think the schools and the victims sort of deserved it if they didn't see and stop it."

That comment caught my eye.

I always though of Europe as being this place that's way more progressed on LGBT stuff. I guess it's not.

Zeph.
November 2nd, 2011, 07:41 AM
1. No
2. No
3. No
4. No
5. No

Honestly some people... >:(

Kura
November 2nd, 2011, 09:11 AM
I think it's the job of both teachers and parents to instill respect into the children as they grow. Kids IMO are naturally going to lash out at something different, so if they learn the appropriate behaviour and respect for other kids that are unlike themselves, then this problem may start to find a solution. No one should have to conform.

Tcoppy
November 2nd, 2011, 09:21 AM
Do you think these teachers will be able to get away with this?
Sadly yes if Cassie Anthony got away with murder, teachers can get away with this
Do you think these teachers have the right to say this to students that are gay?
No, no teacher has the right to say this to poor students, it's like saying to mental kids to not act mentaly retarded
Do you think these teachers have the right to say this to students that aren't gay?
No, it's still pretty bad
4. Do you think that kids should dress more "normal"
Being normal is too over rated
5.Do you think that kids should also have "normal" haircuts
Same as the answer above.

PkMnTrainer Yellow
November 2nd, 2011, 09:23 AM
Do you think these teachers will be able to get away with this?

...Insert snarky quip about the anti-bullying group agreeing with a group I know for reverse bullying here.

No. Nobody ever "gets away" with stuff like this anymore. They'll be lucky if they don't lose their jobs for the simple reason that they've got such an aggressive group on their case. Fortunately this is college, so they might have a chance. In Elementary / High School they could kiss their jobs goodbye, easily.

Do you think these teachers have the right to say this to students that are gay?

Of course they have the right! What a silly question! @_@ This is not as black and white as whether what they said was protected under the constitution. This looks like that reverse bullying I was mentioning earlier. Knowing how college teachers tend to be, chances were the teacher was trying to give a student, who /had/ made themselves a target for anti-gay hate, a reality check. What reality check is that? Allow me to explain.

Student upset about bullying wants help.
Teacher is given two apparent options.
A) Destroy bullying with fire!!!
B) Try to help kid deal with bullying like they do for any other kid suffering petty bullying: Teaching them how to avoid being targeted

I wouldn't have expected any less had I been in these young adult's shoes. =/

Do you think these teachers have the right to say this to students that aren't gay?

Er... This would actually look a lot like the teacher trolling IRL. I have no idea why they would ever say this to a heterosexual person for any reason.

Do you think that kids should dress more "normal"
Do you think that kids should also have "normal" haircuts

Students flaunt their sexuality at their own social risk. Only when consequences for their actions get more severe is there justification to intervene. I wouldn't even go around expressing to people I'm interested in /men/. Y'know why? It wouldn't be appropriate. Not at all.

Esper
November 2nd, 2011, 10:00 AM
I am reminded of the Toronto police officer from a while back who told women that they should dress less "****ty" if they didn't want to be attacked by deviants. It's like the same thing here, only with kids who may or may not be gay. Way to blame the victims, teachers!

But to be fair, the article says it's anecdotal evidence. In other words, some kids said that teachers told them to act less gay. Could have happened just like that, or there could be some slight warping of the words as it was relayed to the people making up this report. If it did happen just as it said then that's an awful thing to say to someone being bullied. I can understand the sentiments, though. Teachers don't want to see kids being bullied and they might honestly think they're giving good advice. I just hope they get things explained to them properly so they understand what they're inadvertently (at least I hope it's not on purpose) telling kids.

My question, for anyone who thinks the teachers were giving good advice, is: when and to whom is it okay to give this advice? To all kids regardless of how they look or act? To "flamboyant" ones? The ones "flaunting" their sexuality?

TRIFORCE89
November 2nd, 2011, 10:01 AM
Yup, sounds like a teacher alright.

When I was younger. A lot younger. Like in grade 1. Not entirely related to the topic as I'm not gay, but I was picked on and we approached the teacher and the school for some assistance and all we got was:

"Don't name names. We don't need to know who is doing what, we'll just look into it on our own". Which they never did.

And, the best one was "Well, what is he [being me] doing that's encouraging that behaviour?".

Teachers simply don't care and are kind of like bullies themselves for letting it happen and blaming the victims.

FreakyLocz14
November 2nd, 2011, 12:49 PM
To give teachers some fair credit, they deal with schoolyard bullying all the time. Some just don't see when certain bullies become increasingly aggressive, and sometimes downright violent.

Stormbringer
November 2nd, 2011, 12:54 PM
I always though of Europe as being this place that's way more progressed on LGBT stuff. I guess it's not.

A few teachers, in a single school, in Essex, England, do not speak for an entire continent. Come on.

Mr. X
November 2nd, 2011, 12:58 PM
I thought you knew that most people ignore the good points and only focus on the bad?

News is no different.

Oryx
November 2nd, 2011, 01:13 PM
Of course they have the right! What a silly question! @_@ This is not as black and white as whether what they said was protected under the constitution. This looks like that reverse bullying I was mentioning earlier. Knowing how college teachers tend to be, chances were the teacher was trying to give a student, who /had/ made themselves a target for anti-gay hate, a reality check. What reality check is that? Allow me to explain.

Student upset about bullying wants help.
Teacher is given two apparent options.
A) Destroy bullying with fire!!!
B) Try to help kid deal with bullying like they do for any other kid suffering petty bullying: Teaching them how to avoid being targeted

I wouldn't have expected any less had I been in these young adult's shoes. =\

I have to actually agree with this, except I have no idea what you mean by reverse bullying but I agree with the idea of a reality check.

Last year, I was 18 and a freshman in college. I decided to dye my hair green. I got a lot of compliments, a lot of weird looks, and some people messing with me about it. But I knew what I was getting into when I dyed my hair, and I knew that it was only because of the hair. These people had never messed with me before and didn't talk to me ever again after I dyed my hair back to brown. So in some cases, the teachers in fact are right and I feel like there's a point in which there needs to be more honesty beyond the "be as in-your-face as you want about your sexuality, everyone will accept you and if they don't then we'll make them accept you! This is how reality works!" I think college is a good time in fact to start instilling into young adults the knowledge that not everywhere will they be accepted no matter what they do or how they dress or act or present themselves. In reality, you will be judged for an outrageous outfit and hairstyle, especially in a job. In my situation, people left me alone once the thing that made me stand out was gone. For small acts of bullying, this is a reasonable solution. Being bullied because you present yourself in a way that screams "LOOK I'M GAY"? Then presenting yourself in a way that doesn't scream that is reasonable advice for a young adult who has to prepare for the real world when there won't be teachers around to scold people that sling insults at them.

That being said, the news article didn't state at all how intense the bullying was. If it was like mine, just teasing around campus/a few snide remarks, then this is a reasonable solution. If it extended beyond that or was recurring with the same person targeting them over and over, that wouldn't solve the problem at all. But we can't say which one it was, so to immediately dismiss that solution to the issue would be wrong.

@Scarf: That relation to the Toronto officer is tenuous at best. The news report says that these people are being picked on specifically for their appearance. It's a well-known fact that sexual attacks aren't based on the level of attractiveness of the woman involved, so the way they dress wouldn't affect the deviants at all. However, if someone is being picked on exclusively for their appearance, and then changed their appearance, it's reasonable to guess that people picking on them for their appearance will...no longer pick on them.[/SIZE]

lx_theo
November 2nd, 2011, 01:15 PM
Do you think these teachers will be able to get away with this?
--> Probably. Its not really their responsibility, so I suspect schools will look the other way unless something big happens because of it.

Do you think these teachers have the right to say this to students that are gay?
--> In all fairness, they have a point. Not acting like it as much will cause less bullying. The issues is that it doesn't deal with the real issues. They have the right to say what they wish, but should be held accountable for their actions.

Do you think these teachers have the right to say this to students that aren't gay?
--> Same. Assuming they are being bullied for the same reasons.

Do you think that kids should dress more "normal"
--> Odd dressings will bring more attention to people, and ultimately more bullying. I think kids should try to have some restraint so they don't go overboard. Besides that, its all their choice.

Do you think that kids should also have "normal" haircuts
--> Same

Mr. X
November 2nd, 2011, 01:18 PM
Just saying, but schools have dress codes for a reason.

JakeyBoy
November 2nd, 2011, 01:27 PM
I wonder if they're telling metrosexuals the same thing.

psyanic
November 2nd, 2011, 02:40 PM
I think it's part of the teacher's job to provide consolation and counsel for students who are being troubled, especially bullying. And the article said a few of them even received death threats. This is just growing all the more common now, sadly.

They shouldn't tell kids how to dress, unless the school has a uniform. But I don't think that's the case here. The teachers had a good thought, in a vague way, as they did try to offer advice. It just wasn't appropriate or adequate.

Oryx
November 2nd, 2011, 02:45 PM
I think it's part of the teacher's job to provide consolation and counsel for students who are being troubled, especially bullying. And the article said a few of them even received death threats. This is just growing all the more common now, sadly.

They shouldn't tell kids how to dress, unless the school has a uniform. But I don't think that's the case here. The teachers had a good thought, in a vague way, as they did try to offer advice. It just wasn't appropriate or adequate.

You misread the article. That part said that 17 percent of all LGBT students everywhere received death threats, not 17% of the people who were involved in this situation.

psyanic
November 2nd, 2011, 02:48 PM
You misread the article. That part said that 17 percent of all LGBT students everywhere received death threats, not 17% of the people who were involved in this situation.

Sorry, guess I didn't word my post correctly. I did mean a few of the students not the teachers, I guess I should have added that in before...

Oryx
November 2nd, 2011, 02:55 PM
No, you're still misreading. It's not 17% of the students in that school, or 17% of the students giving anecdotes. It's 17% of all LGBT students, everywhere. I checked multiple articles to confirm this because that part of the article isn't worded well and this is the only one that mentions death threats. If it was part of the actual story then it would be in at least one of the other 5 articles I read on the same story, lol.

I understand your confusion though - I think it's the way they wrote "had" instead of "have", as if it's all in the past and not still ongoing.

Edit: This article (http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/242271/20111102/uk-teachers-bullied-students-act-gay.htm) words it better and makes it easier to understand, as well as giving a lot more detail.

Blue
November 2nd, 2011, 04:51 PM
What an appauling piece of advice.

deoxys121
November 3rd, 2011, 09:17 AM
Quite simply this: saying someone should "act less gay" is like saying someone should "act less white."

Actor
November 3rd, 2011, 09:28 AM
Nice work, education system. Great freaking job.

Also, I say no to all 5 questions.

Esper
November 3rd, 2011, 10:04 AM
@Scarf: That relation to the Toronto officer is tenuous at best. The news report says that these people are being picked on specifically for their appearance. It's a well-known fact that sexual attacks aren't based on the level of attractiveness of the woman involved, so the way they dress wouldn't affect the deviants at all. However, if someone is being picked on exclusively for their appearance, and then changed their appearance, it's reasonable to guess that people picking on them for their appearance will...no longer pick on them.
I hope you didn't think I agreed with what that Toronto cop said because I don't. I only brought it up because like this story it's a case of someone blaming victims for the faults of others (and because I was trying to add something else to the discussion so it might expand beyond just talking about schools).

I don't know about you, but when I read that kids were being told to change their hair I didn't immediately think they were dying it or doing other kinds of attention-grabbing things with their hair. I assumed that since this was in England that there was a good chance their school had a dress code or a uniform and that anything these kids who were bullied were doing with their appearance couldn't be very extreme in the first place. So I took away from the article the image of a kid with maybe only a Justin Bieber style haircut being harassed. I mean, the "advice" of the teachers may have been to change their hair, but who knows what the bullies were actually targeting. For all we know it was those teachers who had a problem with the kids' appearance and assumed that was the cause.

And from the article it also sounded like what the kids describe as "bullying" the teachers may have described as "teasing" so it's just all kinds of unclear all around.

I'll agree with you certainly that if you dye your hair and get some comments on it that's nothing but you and your choice, but if things slide from "teasing" into "bullying" then it's totally inappropriate to tell the victims they need to change. Adults are supposed to keep schools safe and they can stop bullies once they know about them so there's no call for them to shift that burden to kids.

Oryx
November 3rd, 2011, 10:43 AM
I hope you didn't think I agreed with what that Toronto cop said because I don't. I only brought it up because like this story it's a case of someone blaming victims for the faults of others (and because I was trying to add something else to the discussion so it might expand beyond just talking about schools).

I don't know about you, but when I read that kids were being told to change their hair I didn't immediately think they were dying it or doing other kinds of attention-grabbing things with their hair. I assumed that since this was in England that there was a good chance their school had a dress code or a uniform and that anything these kids who were bullied were doing with their appearance couldn't be very extreme in the first place. So I took away from the article the image of a kid with maybe only a Justin Bieber style haircut being harassed. I mean, the "advice" of the teachers may have been to change their hair, but who knows what the bullies were actually targeting. For all we know it was those teachers who had a problem with the kids' appearance and assumed that was the cause.

And from the article it also sounded like what the kids describe as "bullying" the teachers may have described as "teasing" so it's just all kinds of unclear all around.

I'll agree with you certainly that if you dye your hair and get some comments on it that's nothing but you and your choice, but if things slide from "teasing" into "bullying" then it's totally inappropriate to tell the victims they need to change. Adults are supposed to keep schools safe and they can stop bullies once they know about them so there's no call for them to shift that burden to kids.

Oh no lol, I know that you would never agree with what he said. I was just pointing out the differences between the idea of being picked on for appearance and attacked for what you're wearing are two entirely different things and can't really be compared, because it's rather common knowledge that what you're wearing has no bearing on whether or not you will be attacked like that but it seems reasonable to assume that if you're being picked on due to a part of your appearance that you can change, changing that part will stop the picking.

I'm a little confused personally on the level of schooling it is. Someone here referred to it as a college but a lot of the news articles don't reference it at all, which greatly changes my opinion. In high school and middle school, there's a level of punishment available to teachers for students outside of class that's just not available in college. Teachers can't control everything at that level, and students will have even less of an ability to punish people that bully them once they get out of school entirely. That's why I feel that in college it's reasonable to give a student actual tips that they can take out into the real world to reduce the problem. Yeah, in an ideal society no one would ever pick on anyone else because of their appearance so no one would have to think about that when choosing how to style their hair or dress, but we don't live in an ideal society. It's a compromise that sometimes has to be made by people in the real world where there aren't teachers.

If it's in college, are there uniforms and strict dress code requirements in English colleges? I was under the impression that it was just lower education, not into college.

I think this article is still very badly worded because the first line says "bullied about their sexuality", but the actual article says "picked on for their appearance". There's a very large difference between the two which makes it rather confusing. I read the second one and assumed that meant that the teasing is because of their appearance. I can see how it might be how you see it though, which would change things.

I don't think that the solution of the teachers is right in all situations, obviously. Each different situation has its own different optimal solution, but the point I'm trying to make is that it isn't necessarily wrong flat-out without all the facts like some people have been posting. Without knowledge of the intent of the teachers, the attitude towards the students, the ability to punish the offenders, how the students were actually dressing, and the extent of the bullying/teasing, we can't rule out their actions as wrong in every scenario.

-ty-
November 3rd, 2011, 11:06 AM
The teachers are on the right track, but I think they should give it a bit of a twist. I think that the teachers should ask the heterosexual students to act less straight, and instead, those kids can act more homosexual. The majority of the school would be acting gay, therefore there would be less bullying.

FreakyLocz14
November 3rd, 2011, 11:20 AM
The teachers are on the right track, but I think they should give it a bit of a twist. I think that the teachers should ask the heterosexual students to act less straight, and instead, those kids can act more homosexual. The majority of the school would be acting gay, therefore there would be less bullying.

And not to mention a lot more fabulous.

2Cool4Mewtwo
November 3rd, 2011, 11:35 AM
Teachers are "trying" to help but they're going about the wrong way. I think it's the society in whole that I think needs to be more tolerant of gays, which I don't think will happen in at least couple generations, especially if the issue with racism in America, supposedly one of the most developed countries, wasn't solved for hundreds of years. (NOT saying that those two issues are directly related, but I am making a comparison of similar situation)

TorixPikachu
November 3rd, 2011, 12:52 PM
1. No.
2. No.
3. No.
4. No.
5. No.

Team Fail
November 3rd, 2011, 02:08 PM
Hm. I saw the article on FailBlog. (http://failblog.org/2011/11/01/epic-fail-photos-probably-bad-news-dont-be-yourself/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+failblog+%28The+FAIL+Blog+-+Fail+Pictures+%26+Videos+at+Failblog.ORG%29)

Do you think these teachers will be able to get away with this?
No. Teachers should know that they are to treat each student equally, and not to simply tell them to be less gay.
Do you think these teachers have the right to say this to students that are gay?
No. Students should have to make these decisions themselves to hide whether they are gay or not.
Do you think these teachers have the right to say this to students that aren't gay?
If they aren't gay, why should they be told this?
Do you think that kids should dress more "normal"
No. It's up to the student to make this decision.
Do you think that kids should also have "normal" haircuts
Same as above.

MagicalNeko
November 4th, 2011, 07:41 PM
weeeeeellll I think the teachers just didn't think it through, I guess if you're being bullied for appearing gay then acting less gay makes sense in short term...but it's a baaaad idea in the long run for loads of resons. silly teachers Dx

yus, silly teachers...not evil teachers though ^^ I think their heart was probably in the right place...but maybe not their heads

-ty-
November 4th, 2011, 09:11 PM
weeeeeellll I think the teachers just didn't think it through, I guess if you're being bullied for appearing gay then acting less gay makes sense in short term...but it's a baaaad idea in the long run for loads of resons. silly teachers Dx

yus, silly teachers...not evil teachers though ^^ I think their heart was probably in the right place...but maybe not their heads

They more so want to dump the responsibility of gay teen bullying upon the LGBT teens who are being bullied. They are not trying to create a solution, rather, they are avoiding taking actions into their own hands. Not to say all teachers want to avoid the responsibility of dealing with bullying.

oocyst
November 5th, 2011, 05:06 AM
I don't really think of it as 'Blaming the victim'. It's just an advice to avoid being bullied. Sure, everyone has the right to dress as they like, but people tend to pick on people who have a different appearance. You can't just expect everyone to accept you the way you are, and sure, people need to accept you but some people are just not going to do that. You can choose to keep dressing and acting the way you are and maybe try to do something about their behaviour, or you can change your own behaviour. Changing other people is harder than changing yourself, and that's why these teachers are giving this advice to people. I'm not saying that I totally agree with them, but there is some truth to it.

I used to dress and act differently, and I got a lot of weird looks and people kept questioning me about it. One day I just gave it up because I just didn't need to be like that anymore. All that negative attention stopped after that, and when I look back at it, it was a huge step for me towards being more mature.

So I'm not saying you NEED to follow this advice, because that's what it is, advice.

MagicalNeko
November 5th, 2011, 05:27 AM
They more so want to dump the responsibility of gay teen bullying upon the LGBT teens who are being bullied. They are not trying to create a solution, rather, they are avoiding taking actions into their own hands.

Buuuuuut....where exactly is the proof of that? It just sounds like you're assuming the worst of them...

Black Ice
November 5th, 2011, 01:02 PM
As a practical matter, acting less gay might be beneficial.

Not saying it's right. But it kinda sorta makes sense. The world is ****ed up sometimes. Being idealistic to a bully isn't going to bring much change.

Or maybe they could just punish bullies a little more severely. I always thought we they got off pretty easy.

-ty-
November 5th, 2011, 01:17 PM
Buuuuuut....where exactly is the proof of that? It just sounds like you're assuming the worst of them...

I don't assume the worst of these teachers. I simply said they do not want to take any responsibility; they are basically saying it is the "gay-acting" students fault that they are being bullied. They do not have good nor bad intentions; they want to avoid mandates that will make them liable for bullying if they sit back and just let it happen.

MagicalNeko
November 5th, 2011, 03:18 PM
I don't assume the worst of these teachers. I simply said they do not want to take any responsibility; they are basically saying it is the "gay-acting" students fault that they are being bullied. They do not have good nor bad intentions; they want to avoid mandates that will make them liable for bullying if they sit back and just let it happen.

Where did they say it was their fault that they're being bullied? I can't see that anywhere in there o__O

-ty-
November 5th, 2011, 07:31 PM
They do not have to out-right say it is the gay person's fault; however, the "advice" insinuates that their "gay-acting" behavior is the catalyst for the bullying. A person whose behavior is causing conflict is at blame or fault for creating conflict. Come on, do I really need to state the obvious?

Oryx
November 5th, 2011, 07:43 PM
-ty-, I think the point Neko was making is that the article said they were being picked on for their appearance, so logical short-term 'survive school' advice would be to change their appearance to not get picked on. Yes, the ideal solution is to make the bullies see the error of their ways and change and become more tolerant, but you can't automatically fault the teachers.

You said two entirely different things in two sentences; in the first one you said that people shouldn't be asked to change if they behave 'gay', but in the second one you said that if a behavior causes conflict, they are at fault for behaving in a way that causes conflict. Like I've said before in this thread, it depends on the extent of the problem and how focused it is on their appearance and honestly how "out there" their appearance is, so it's unreasonable to immediately dismiss the teachers as apathetic and uncaring.

FreakyLocz14
November 5th, 2011, 08:14 PM
-ty-, I think the point Neko was making is that the article said they were being picked on for their appearance, so logical short-term 'survive school' advice would be to change their appearance to not get picked on. Yes, the ideal solution is to make the bullies see the error of their ways and change and become more tolerant, but you can't automatically fault the teachers.

You said two entirely different things in two sentences; in the first one you said that people shouldn't be asked to change if they behave 'gay', but in the second one you said that if a behavior causes conflict, they are at fault for behaving in a way that causes conflict. Like I've said before in this thread, it depends on the extent of the problem and how focused it is on their appearance and honestly how "out there" their appearance is, so it's unreasonable to immediately dismiss the teachers as apathetic and uncaring.

I agree. If it's the appearance that's drawing negative attention, isn't it best to change your appearance? While, yes, the ideal situation is for everyone to be accepting of everybody, that's not reality. Going beyond school and into the workforce, many professions will have professional dress codes and what not. Perhaps school uniforms would provide a remedy.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire
November 5th, 2011, 09:51 PM
I don't think this is the right way to go about trying to end this type of bullying. People have to learn to tolerate different types of people and to respect one's self,that's what I think we should do to end bullying.

FreakyLocz14
November 5th, 2011, 10:16 PM
I don't think this is the right way to go about trying to end this type of bullying. People have to learn to tolerate different types of people and to respect one's self,that's what I think we should do to end bullying.

And how do you go about enforcing that? Sure, people should be tolerant, but we can't bend expectations for certain people with unorthodox fashions.

This would have to be a local, district by district, school by school thing, but school uniforms are intended to eliminate distractions that a student's unusual fashion sense.

Minishcap
November 5th, 2011, 10:27 PM
x is not represenative for what the majority of Brits
I always though of Europe as being this place that's way more progressed on LGBT stuff. I guess it's not.

Europe is not as homogeneous (oh I did I did!) as many people might think. The Nordic and Western countries are the more liberal when it comes to sexuality. While the eastern countries are not places you would want to be as a homosexual, though ironically you can kiss a man on the cheek there because it is part of culture. This school in Essex (if the story is true) will probably get a major slapp on the buttocks for this.

MagicalNeko
November 6th, 2011, 04:48 AM
And how do you go about enforcing that? Sure, people should be tolerant, but we can't bend expectations for certain people with unorthodox fashions.

This would have to be a local, district by district, school by school thing, but school uniforms are intended to eliminate distractions that a student's unusual fashion sense.

Weeeellll remember this was in a school in Essex in the UK and we do have school uniform here ^^;;

Thinking about it, "act less gay" probably referred to people being bullied for acting very camp seeing as appearance couldn't have been much of a factor. Personally I think the teachers should deal with the bullies properly or else they'll grow up with the idea that it's okay to discriminate against gay people but I don't think the teachers are being anti-LGBT or trying to clean their hands of responsibility or anything >_<

The thing is...a lot of teachers are older and from a different generation and those teachers probably don't understand the self-identity that comes with being LGBT because they grew up in an era where it was hidden behind closed doors, so to them "stop acting gay" just makes sense, but to us younger generation we see it as oppressive on our self-identity and take offense and then it ends up in the newspapers with the teachers being demonised slightly =/

Caine
November 6th, 2011, 05:13 AM
Do you think these teachers will be able to get away with this?
I think that they should be more sensitive about it.
Do you think these teachers have the right to say this to students that are gay?
I think that the advice is correct, unless they want to physically fight back or get the bullies excluded (which could lead to worse bullying) they acting 'less gay' could help them.
Do you think these teachers have the right to say this to students that aren't gay?
Yeah, cuz if it offends them then they're hiding something.
Do you think that kids should dress more "normal"
I think that if they want to make themselves a target then it's up to them.
Do you think that kids should also have "normal" haircuts
Same as above.


People in this day and age, such as myself have become very exposed this. I honestly think that while these people don't deserved to be bullied they should deal with it. I've been bullied a lot throughout school. I used to cry myself to sleep. Then I manned up and stopped acting like a fool and I gained loads of friends, I am now a Christian and I think that I'm glad I did what I did. I mean there was a (true) rumour that I had kissed a boy (I was a bi-curious, wannabe emo sort) and it was hard, but I regret doing that, let them know, and got over it. Simple. It stopped once I admitted I had been wrong.
I have nothing against gays, one of my best friends is gay, and he's the strongest guy I know, emotionally and physically BECAUSE he had dealt with his problem in school, and these kids should do the same.

The teachers are on the right track, but I think they should give it a bit of a twist. I think that the teachers should ask the heterosexual students to act less straight, and instead, those kids can act more homosexual. The majority of the school would be acting gay, therefore there would be less bullying.

A very funny but slightly flawed concept- it just clearly wouldn't work. I can guarantee 90% of my friends, for example, wouldn't do it. And other than school rules about phones we are fairly compliant and listen to (mostly) what we're told by our teachers or head of year.

which I don't think will happen in at least couple generations, especially if the issue with racism in America, supposedly one of the most developed countries, wasn't solved for hundreds of years. (NOT saying that those two issues are directly related, but I am making a comparison of similar situation)

There is still racism in America after over 400 years, it isn't going to stop any time soon. Just like people against homosexuality may never go away.

-ty-
November 6th, 2011, 07:49 AM
Do you think these teachers will be able to get away with this?
I think that they should be more sensitive about it.
Do you think these teachers have the right to say this to students that are gay?
I think that the advice is correct, unless they want to physically fight back or get the bullies excluded (which could lead to worse bullying) they acting 'less gay' could help them.
Do you think these teachers have the right to say this to students that aren't gay?
Yeah, cuz if it offends them then they're hiding something.
Do you think that kids should dress more "normal"
I think that if they want to make themselves a target then it's up to them.
Do you think that kids should also have "normal" haircuts
Same as above.


People in this day and age, such as myself have become very exposed to p***y-fication. I honestly think that while these people don't deserved to be bullied they should deal with it. I've been bullied a lot throughout school. I used to cry myself to sleep. Then I manned up and stopped acting like a t*t and I gained loads of friends, I am now a Christian and I think that I'm glad I did what I did. I mean there was a (true) rumour that I had kissed a boy (I was a bi-curious, wannabe emo sort) and it was hard, but I regret doing that, let them know, and got over it. Simple. It stopped once I admitted I had been wrong.
I have nothing against gays, one of my best friends is gay, and he's the strongest guy I know, emotionally and physically BECAUSE he had dealt with his problem in school, and these kids should do the same.



A very funny but slightly flawed concept- it just clearly wouldn't work. I can guarantee 90% of my friends, for example, wouldn't do it. And other than school rules about phones we are fairly compliant and listen to (mostly) what we're told by our teachers or head of year.



There is still racism in America after over 400 years, it isn't going to stop any time soon. Just like people against homosexuality may never go away.

Quote taken out of context a few times in replies. I was saying that the teachers were placing blame on gay students by saying that it was their gay behavior causing the bullying; the solution act less gay. In reality, it's the behavior of the bully. The teachers avoid saying that they should change their behavior. That is why the blame is placed upon the gay students, which is not right.

And to Neko, I never said the teachers were apathetic, but rather they do not want to assume any responsibly from mandates that might require them to achieve certification/training on bullying, which would make their jobs more difficult. But I think that teachers should have knowledge about bullying and procedures in order to prevent/stop it in the classroom.

FreakyLocz14
November 6th, 2011, 09:23 AM
Weeeellll remember this was in a school in Essex in the UK and we do have school uniform here ^^;;

Thinking about it, "act less gay" probably referred to people being bullied for acting very camp seeing as appearance couldn't have been much of a factor. Personally I think the teachers should deal with the bullies properly or else they'll grow up with the idea that it's okay to discriminate against gay people but I don't think the teachers are being anti-LGBT or trying to clean their hands of responsibility or anything >_<

The thing is...a lot of teachers are older and from a different generation and those teachers probably don't understand the self-identity that comes with being LGBT because they grew up in an era where it was hidden behind closed doors, so to them "stop acting gay" just makes sense, but to us younger generation we see it as oppressive on our self-identity and take offense and then it ends up in the newspapers with the teachers being demonised slightly =/

Uniforms aren't the only option, but they are one. I'd be opposed to a federal or state uniform mandates, but I'd support it at the local school district level if a democratic, open process took place.

I really don't know how the students are acting. Are they have disruptive outbursts? Talking about sexual subject matters? I don't know.

I'm taking sides each way, because I know that teachers deal with school bullying on a daily basis, so they are most likely just desensitized to the topic.

Gold warehouse
November 6th, 2011, 09:51 AM
I can't really fault the teachers too much here. YEah it is an absolute crap solution, but we live in a crap world. It is easier to get people to conform rather than to try and make idiots realise they're idiotic (near impossible).

But really... If you've got the guts to dress outlandishly then you should be prepared to have the guts to deal with bullies as well. It's almost guaranteed you're going to get some backlash.

It makes me happy seeing this thread though, with any luck the next generation (or maybe the second?) will be totally different. We've all grown up in an age of tolerance, maybe it will make a big difference in the future.

Caine
November 6th, 2011, 11:33 AM
I can't really fault the teachers too much here. YEah it is an absolute crap solution, but we live in a crap world. It is easier to get people to conform rather than to try and make idiots realise they're idiotic (near impossible).

But really... If you've got the guts to dress outlandishly then you should be prepared to have the guts to deal with bullies as well. It's almost guaranteed you're going to get some backlash.

It makes me happy seeing this thread though, with any luck the next generation (or maybe the second?) will be totally different. We've all grown up in an age of tolerance, maybe it will make a big difference in the future.

I so wish I could say I believe this will happen, although I HIGHLY doubt we're ever going to live in a word with tolerance. I see discrimination and bullying every day at school, it's just something that happens. Even nice kids do it, it's just the way it works.
Who needs to have things in common when they can laugh at another group of people? It's a shame but it's the reality. In secondary school at least the teachers have almost no influence on how people behave in break times, and the only time they get involved is if there's a fight, and even then they usually do nothing.

Kids have a laugh, if that means targeting someone then they will do it. I have managed to stop being a target and I try to encourage people not to steal from people just because they can, or hurt them, but I still joke about people.

So long as there are people who alienate themselves, such as camp people, or people who always say things are racist, then there will always be bullies.

Gold warehouse
November 6th, 2011, 12:13 PM
I so wish I could say I believe this will happen, although I HIGHLY doubt we're ever going to live in a word with tolerance. I see discrimination and bullying every day at school, it's just something that happens. Even nice kids do it, it's just the way it works.


It was the same for me at school; but that's in part because of how even the current adult generations before us are still prejudiced. Now I know a lot of people who are aged from late teens to late twenties, I can honestly say the vast majority of them are very tolerant.

We've definitely come far though, I mean look at Lawrence v. Texas, and now less than 10 years later they've got gay marriage in New York. LGBT rights can only improve in the years to come. Racism as well, if you look how far we've come in the past 50 years it is staggering when you consider how little was accomplished in the centuries beforehand. Yes it's still a problem, but there have still been considerable advancements.

sims796
November 6th, 2011, 12:50 PM
I disagree with those that say "don't fault the teachers". Dealing with bullies is part of their job. Telling the student to change his appearance is a short term solution, as that may not stop the bullying to begin with. We are starting to see the very real, very negative aspects of bullying, and I'd hate to have another mass shooting or suicide on our hands because "we live in a crap world".

Rather than pass the puck to the student (and no matter the excuse, that was very terrible wording), she should have sought out the bully, and dug up the problem. Sure, she could advise the student to make himself less of a target, but it doesn't take a genius to see that a teacher telling a student to "act less gay" is showing extreme disregard, and is passing the blame towards the student. That does not help, and lets the student know that he is on his own when it comes to bullying.

So long as there are people who alienate themselves, such as camp people, or people who always say things are racist, then there will always be bullies.

Don't forget those that are, y'know, actually racist. They tend to be a problem as well.

FreakyLocz14
November 6th, 2011, 12:59 PM
I disagree with those that say "don't fault the teachers". Dealing with bullies is part of their job. Telling the student to change his appearance is a short term solution, as that may not stop the bullying to begin with. We are starting to see the very real, very negative aspects of bullying, and I'd hate to have another mass shooting or suicide on our hands because "we live in a crap world".

Rather than pass the puck to the student (and no matter the excuse, that was very terrible wording), she should have sought out the bully, and dug up the problem. Sure, she could advise the student to make himself less of a target, but it doesn't take a genius to see that a teacher telling a student to "act less gay" is showing extreme disregard, and is passing the blame towards the student. That does not help, and lets the student know that he is on his own when it comes to bullying.



Don't forget those that are, y'know, actually racist. They tend to be a problem as well.

Sure. The teacher isn't completely innocent, but we also can't put all the pressure on them.

Caine
November 6th, 2011, 01:19 PM
It was the same for me at school; but that's in part because of how even the current adult generations before us are still prejudiced. Now I know a lot of people who are aged from late teens to late twenties, I can honestly say the vast majority of them are very tolerant.

The problem is that your point is very good but has 1 major flaw. If the reason it's like that in school is because of parents then the kids that are doing in in school are going to pass that on to their children.

The thing is with race is that there are a lot more black people (for example) in western cities and schools than there were 50 years ago, and so people are more tolerant. Gay people don't have a specific origin or a country/ continent where they come from. This means that unlike black people they can't come in masses and make people see differently just by being integrated into their life. It is quite clear if someone is black or not which also makes it easier to realise they aren't some kind of threat if you see them all the time.

The thing about gay people is that what they are doesn't have to be in the open, yet they often alienate themselves and this really isn't the way to go about things. Gay Pride, for instance, just makes it in our face that they are different. They could just get on with their lives.

It's cliche to say, but would a Straight Pride be allowed? No, because that would be 'offensive'. They could just lead normal lives, but instead of a woman in their life they have a man. AS for public display of affection- it isn't even often I see man and woman embracing each other or kissing in public, again, if you're gay, why make yourself a target? It isn't hard to find a private place to do whatever you want.

As for gay marriage... Well I'll just say in my opinion that is an oxymoron. It makes no sense to me. The fact that it's allowed just seems stupid to me. However, I am against homosexuality, not homosexuals. I will treat them no differently for what they are, but I think it is wrong.

sims796
November 6th, 2011, 02:51 PM
Sure. The teacher isn't completely innocent, but we also can't put all the pressure on them.

Sure we can - that's their job. If they don't do it right, bad things will happen.

What I mean is, if the teacher had handled this in the best possible way that they could manage, within reason, then they have done all that they could. We can only hope but for so much. In this case, however, telling your student to "act less gay" is honestly making the problem worse. Now he may feel that he cannot go to teachers for help. Students in that position usually find other ways of dealing. Suffer in silence, or take it amongst themselves, and it isn't rare that a gun is the 'best' way of dealing with it.

This is why bullying is such a big deal nowadays. Schools need to run a zero tolerant policy for that, because the consequences are becoming more and more dire by the minute.


The thing about gay people is that what they are doesn't have to be in the open, yet they often alienate themselves and this really isn't the way to go about things. Gay Pride, for instance, just makes it in our face that they are different. They could just get on with their lives.

It's cliche to say, but would a Straight Pride be allowed? No, because that would be 'offensive'. They could just lead normal lives, but instead of a woman in their life they have a man. AS for public display of affection- it isn't even often I see man and woman embracing each other or kissing in public, again, if you're gay, why make yourself a target? It isn't hard to find a private place to do whatever you want.

Actually, it's because they aren't able to simply 'get on with their lives' is what's the problem.

By your own admission, the basic 'privlege', if you will, that straight people are allowed isn't exactly given for gays. As you said, gays aren't even allowed public displays of affection, unless they want to become targets. Straight people usually do not have to find a private place to embrace - do it on the train, on the streets, feel free to kiss. Yet gays must not? That is a problem, but one that won't dissapear. You rarely see people beat up straight people for being straight. This is only one of the ways that things aren't exactly equal to simply say "get on with your lives"

As for Pride parades, well, I don't care for them at all. However, Straights don't need 'pride'. We got everything else working for our advantage. If I wanna show my straight pride, I can simply kiss me girlfriend in public. As you said, gays aren't even allowed that.

Er, I just wanted to address this post, so I will not derail it any further.

Black Ice
November 6th, 2011, 04:26 PM
Sure we can - that's their job. If they don't do it right, bad things will happen.

What I mean is, if the teacher had handled this in the best possible way that they could manage, within reason, then they have done all that they could. We can only hope but for so much. In this case, however, telling your student to "act less gay" is honestly making the problem worse. Now he may feel that he cannot go to teachers for help. Students in that position usually find other ways of dealing. Suffer in silence, or take it amongst themselves, and it isn't rare that a gun is the 'best' way of dealing with it.

This is why bullying is such a big deal nowadays. Schools need to run a zero tolerant policy for that, because the consequences are becoming more and more dire by the minute.




Actually, it's because they aren't able to simply 'get on with their lives' is what's the problem.

By your own admission, the basic 'privlege', if you will, that straight people are allowed isn't exactly given for gays. As you said, gays aren't even allowed public displays of affection, unless they want to become targets. Straight people usually do not have to find a private place to embrace - do it on the train, on the streets, feel free to kiss. Yet gays must not? That is a problem, but one that won't dissapear. You rarely see people beat up straight people for being straight. This is only one of the ways that things aren't exactly equal to simply say "get on with your lives"

As for Pride parades, well, I don't care for them at all. However, Straights don't need 'pride'. We got everything else working for our advantage. If I wanna show my straight pride, I can simply kiss me girlfriend in public. As you said, gays aren't even allowed that.

Er, I just wanted to address this post, so I will not derail it any further.
There is a saying that goes, "life isn't fair."

FreakyLocz14
November 6th, 2011, 04:43 PM
I'm not opposed to a zero tolerance policy, but let's also look at the deeper issues and suggest to his parents that he get some counseling for his anger management problems.

Blue Nocturne
November 7th, 2011, 10:04 AM
Just popped in to say that acting less "Gay" might not necessarily help. There are guys in my school who act a lot "gayer" than I do, the don't get bullied as I used to; same with my ex-boyfriends school. Being gay seems to be of more significance than acting it. In most cases where the kids are already being bullied, I worry that changing is unlikely to help. If anything it just makes the victim appear more insecure about themselves.


There is a saying that goes, "life isn't fair."


No, it's not. But that certainly doesn't mean we should just accept that. Neither should we just accept bullying and not address it properly.

Oryx
November 7th, 2011, 10:17 AM
Just popped in to say that acting less "Gay" might not necessarily help. There are guys in my school who act a lot "gayer" than I do, the don't get bullied as I used to; same with my ex-boyfriends school. Being gay seems to be of more significance than acting it. In most cases where the kids are already being bullied, I worry that changing is unlikely to help. If anything it just makes the victim appear more insecure about themselves.



No, it's not. But that certainly doesn't mean we should just accept that. Neither should we just accept bullying and not address it properly.

The point I am making is that you can't know whether or not that was the solution that helped the most, so while yes, it can be bad advice if the bullying is persistent and aggressive enough, in other circumstances it can be just the right advice. All I'm saying is don't be so quick to crucify the teachers since we don't know all the circumstances.

And I do agree with your second point to an extent. I've often made that point in other arguments myself. But under the assumption that it's a college, say the situation goes like this:

1. Student gets snarky comments for "acting gay".
2. Student goes to teacher.
3. Teacher punishes, bullies go away forever yayyy

Then in a few years they get kicked out into the real world, where jobs take your behavior and appearance into consideration when hiring you, and snarky comments can't be stopped by a teacher. That kid isn't prepared in the least for that because every time he's been looked at funny the kid that did it was punished so he didn't do it again. Ideally, no one would judge him in the real world. But it happens. You set kids up for failure if you teach them that the world is better than it is, and then throw them into it sink-or-swim.

Esper
November 7th, 2011, 01:18 PM
Then in a few years they get kicked out into the real world, where jobs take your behavior and appearance into consideration when hiring you, and snarky comments can't be stopped by a teacher. That kid isn't prepared in the least for that because every time he's been looked at funny the kid that did it was punished so he didn't do it again. Ideally, no one would judge him in the real world. But it happens. You set kids up for failure if you teach them that the world is better than it is, and then throw them into it sink-or-swim.
But snarky comments =/= bullying. I think you're inadvertently downplaying the severity of some cases of bullying by using "snarky comments" as your example here.

I would be pleasantly surprised if there were a school where every case of harassment, bullying, and teasing was caught by a teacher. It's not like there are going to be large numbers of kids who have never experienced some jerk getting away with something mean.

What I mean to say is, everyone is prepared on some level for the real world, at least where it comes to knowing there are jerks around. I think it would have to be a very overbearing school which would produce the "sink or swim" cases you describe.

Black Ice
November 7th, 2011, 08:21 PM
Just popped in to say that acting less "Gay" might not necessarily help. There are guys in my school who act a lot "gayer" than I do, the don't get bullied as I used to; same with my ex-boyfriends school. Being gay seems to be of more significance than acting it. In most cases where the kids are already being bullied, I worry that changing is unlikely to help. If anything it just makes the victim appear more insecure about themselves.



No, it's not. But that certainly doesn't mean we should just accept that. Neither should we just accept bullying and not address it properly.
A lot of bullying depends on the reactions the victims give off. Insecure people are more likely to take bullying seriously, and thus will become the subject of bullying more often. Others who just shrug everything off aren't worth it to bullies, so the bullies give up and find weaker targets. This is probably where the whole difference in treatment comes into play.

Of course bullying should be addressed properly. But that is only half of the battle.

There should probably be some life lesson classes in high school. Seems like it'd be a very nifty thing to have.

Yoshikko
November 8th, 2011, 06:05 AM
Ok so, when I read the statement, I thought that the way the brought it up wasn't good and it bothered me. Saying that someone should act less "gay", doesn't reflect on the fact that they are homosexual, but more on that they find that they act dumb or stupid, I think, which just isn't a right thing to say. It is an opinion and therefore something like this shouldn't at all be based on that.

BUT, it could also mean that they should really act less gay - which would be girly-like for guys -, and I have to say that in that sense, I can't help but agree a little. Before you start telling me that everyone is free and that they are allowed to express themselves in whatever way they want (of course I do agree with this), what I mean is that when you act like i.e. a dumbass (just giving an example here), then don't be surprised if other people are going to treat you like one, or bully you for being one. Now I know that people who are gay, are just gay, they can't help it, but I do think that a LOT of homosexual people really over-exaggerate, and I don't find it all that surprising that they would be bullied for that, because it's just ridiculous, the way some people act and exaggerate. Just because you are gay, does not mean you have to go throw flowers everywhere and blow handkisses to everyone, and I feel that a lot of people just act this way because they feel like they can, because they are gay, and I can understand - not saying I agree - why they would be bullied. My best friend is gay, and he isn't like that either. He's just like a dude, with a different sexual preference. He doesn't go acting like a girl or anything. Like I said before, of course the people who act this way are allowed to do that, and it doesn't necessarily bother me, I am just saying that if you don't want to be bullied (and you know it's gonna happen when you act like that), then they should just tone it down a bit.

http://i42.tinypic.com/16jfse0.png
Like I mean come on. Act this way if you want, and I can appreciate when people do it, but don't be surprised if other people bully you for it because those people just exist.

I also feel like I need to point out that I know that NOT ALL GAYS ARE LIKE THIS AND I DON'T THINK THAT EITHER, I am just talking about the select few that ARE in fact like this, and imo are just bringing it upon themselves a little.

And of course I think that the teachers shouldn't have said it like that, that's just not good.

Esper
November 8th, 2011, 10:02 AM
snip
Imagine you had a high school kid who was transgendered. To some people they'll only see a boy wearing skirts or makeup. To some people this is just a kid "acting gay" when the reality is completely different. How exactly is this kid supposed to act different without completely compromising who they are?

Gold warehouse
November 8th, 2011, 10:25 AM
Sure we can - that's their job. If they don't do it right, bad things will happen.

[...]

This is why bullying is such a big deal nowadays. Schools need to run a zero tolerant policy for that, because the consequences are becoming more and more dire by the minute.

What are teachers supposed to do though? Corporal punishment isn't allowed, teachers have absolutely no power anymore. All they can do is expel or exclude a student, and that doesn't solve the problem either. As a society we constantly complain about how teachers should not be too harsh on their students, and then when there's an issue we complain that they aren't dealing with it properly. It's easy to say they're doing something wrong; but nobody seems to be able to say what the right thing to do is.

It's not the duty of a teacher to shape the personality of a child, in fact it's near impossible for a teacher to do that. How many bullies have you known about that really gave a damn what the teacher told them? It's the role of the parent to teach children these things; but there's nothing to stop racist, ignorant, homophobes from having children, and they're not going to educate their kids about good values. The whole situation is the result of an underlying problem that doesn't seem to have any real solution.

Yoshikko
November 8th, 2011, 10:34 AM
Imagine you had a high school kid who was transgendered. To some people they'll only see a boy wearing skirts or makeup. To some people this is just a kid "acting gay" when the reality is completely different. How exactly is this kid supposed to act different without completely compromising who they are?
I'm not talking about transgendered kids, and I know about their situation and I agree with you. I'm talking about the select few that exaggerate feminine behaviour (not transgendered kids obv).

FreakyLocz14
November 8th, 2011, 11:00 AM
What are teachers supposed to do though? Corporal punishment isn't allowed, teachers have absolutely no power anymore. All they can do is expel or exclude a student, and that doesn't solve the problem either. As a society we constantly complain about how teachers should not be too harsh on their students, and then when there's an issue we complain that they aren't dealing with it properly. It's easy to say they're doing something wrong; but nobody seems to be able to say what the right thing to do is.

It's not the duty of a teacher to shape the personality of a child, in fact it's near impossible for a teacher to do that. How many bullies have you known about that really gave a damn what the teacher told them? It's the role of the parent to teach children these things; but there's nothing to stop racist, ignorant, homophobes from having children, and they're not going to educate their kids about good values. The whole situation is the result of an underlying problem that doesn't seem to have any real solution.

This is sad, but true. The power really does lie with the parents. I'm seeing schools try to shape the personality of their students (like SB 48 here), but it's all a waste of time and money if ignorant parents are just going to override it at home.

Sean
November 8th, 2011, 11:14 AM
Gonna throw a point out there that bullies can usually be influenced by their parents if they're homophobic.

A lot of gay people DO over-exaggerate. What I mean in this is they act way, way, way, WAY too girly. I know several gay people and they could definitely be more "camp" if they tried.

If you're getting bullied, then tone down on the girliness. It's what I've done and it's helped lol, just don't act girly around the majority of people but rather your friends I guess, but a lot of people can't help themselves when it comes to being girly-gay. It's just natural and its not their fault at all. I used to be a really really girly-gay but now I've toned down on that and really, it works. (but I've never been bullied so I dunno how it feels really, surprising yeah)

The power of changing this whole view of society lies in parents yes, because they can influence in a child being homophobic or in the victims case, don't help them battle their problems. The problem nowadays is a lot of people try to deal with problems themselves now which is a really bad outlook.

-ty-
November 8th, 2011, 12:55 PM
Gonna throw a point out there that bullies can usually be influenced by their parents if they're homophobic.

A lot of gay people DO over-exaggerate. What I mean in this is they act way, way, way, WAY too girly. I know several gay people and they could definitely be more "camp" if they tried.

If you're getting bullied, then tone down on the girliness. It's what I've done and it's helped lol, just don't act girly around the majority of people but rather your friends I guess, but a lot of people can't help themselves when it comes to being girly-gay. It's just natural and its not their fault at all. I used to be a really really girly-gay but now I've toned down on that and really, it works. (but I've never been bullied so I dunno how it feels really, surprising yeah)

The power of changing this whole view of society lies in parents yes, because they can influence in a child being homophobic or in the victims case, don't help them battle their problems. The problem nowadays is a lot of people try to deal with problems themselves now which is a really bad outlook.

But in some cases, the child cannot help how they act. It's like if the school asked straight girls to be more masculine, or straight guys to where makeup and be in touch with their inner woman. For some gay/bi/transgender people, there personality doesn't conform to the "normative" world. But is that a solution anyway?

If you are about "normative" in how you act as far as "traditional" female/male attributes go, and you are still attracted to the same sex. As long as intolerant children know that another child is attracted to the same sex, they will continue to bully. So it does go beyond, act less girly/manly, and the advice almost insinuates hide the fact that you are attracted to the same sex, and pretend that they are attracted to the opposite sex. Which is not healthy for the child to do at all.

Oryx
November 8th, 2011, 04:31 PM
But in some cases, the child cannot help how they act. It's like if the school asked straight girls to be more masculine, or straight guys to where makeup and be in touch with their inner woman. For some gay/bi/transgender people, there personality doesn't conform to the "normative" world. But is that a solution anyway?

If you are about "normative" in how you act as far as "traditional" female/male attributes go, and you are still attracted to the same sex. As long as intolerant children know that another child is attracted to the same sex, they will continue to bully. So it does go beyond, act less girly/manly, and the advice almost insinuates hide the fact that you are attracted to the same sex, and pretend that they are attracted to the opposite sex. Which is not healthy for the child to do at all.

No, the advice insinuates not to make such a large deal about being attracted to the same sex that other people can pick you out as gay just by how you act and dress. If I was getting bullied for example for wearing guy's flannel, I wouldn't have much of a problem switching to more feminine shirts. I guess I don't really understand how wanting to dress differently can be such a part of someone that they feel as if they're suppressing themselves when they dress or act differently; it just seems contrary to other messages that are sent such as "don't judge a book by its cover" and the general message that what you wear doesn't define who you are.

You're still posting under the assumption that the bullying in question is based on their sexuality alone and would continue if their appearance was changed, while I'm basing my assumption on what the article said, that they were getting picked on for their appearance. Although mine does have a basis, we still really don't know either way.

Esper
November 8th, 2011, 05:03 PM
I'm not talking about transgendered kids, and I know about their situation and I agree with you. I'm talking about the select few that exaggerate feminine behaviour (not transgendered kids obv).
What I was trying to say was that I wouldn't expect a bully to be able to distinguish between the "select few" gay guys and a trans girl. On the outside there are lots of similarities. The bully won't go: "Uh, sorry, didn't notice you were trans. Please go about your business while I pick on that girly gay kid." But would a teacher make that distinction? The "problem" is with kids being harassed for their appearances, but you can't just tell a trans kid to change their looks. I would hope that a teacher would not say: "Why don't you dress differently?" That's almost as bad as saying: "Don't be gay." It would show a whole lot of insensitivity. And they won't do it, either, which would be obvious to anyone who knows anything.

All I really mean to say is that just because this "advice" is "practical" for some kids who are being bullied, it's totally inappropriate advice to give to other students who are facing the exact same bullying so it's advice that applies only to some. If teachers aren't going to suggest something that would help any student in that situation (be they gay, trans, or just different) then those teachers ought to keep their mouths shut... and probably quit being teachers because they probably don't care enough about their kids to find a better solution.

sims796
November 8th, 2011, 10:14 PM
What are teachers supposed to do though? Corporal punishment isn't allowed, teachers have absolutely no power anymore. All they can do is expel or exclude a student, and that doesn't solve the problem either. As a society we constantly complain about how teachers should not be too harsh on their students, and then when there's an issue we complain that they aren't dealing with it properly. It's easy to say they're doing something wrong; but nobody seems to be able to say what the right thing to do is.

It's not the duty of a teacher to shape the personality of a child, in fact it's near impossible for a teacher to do that. How many bullies have you known about that really gave a damn what the teacher told them? It's the role of the parent to teach children these things; but there's nothing to stop racist, ignorant, homophobes from having children, and they're not going to educate their kids about good values. The whole situation is the result of an underlying problem that doesn't seem to have any real solution.

It is the duty of the teacher to not dismiss things. It is their responsibility to handle school related issues in school.

Like it or not, bullying is starting to turn into a real problem now. If you want people to handle their own problems, then fine. It isn't unusual for those problems to be handled with a gun, a noose, or a razor blade. Give me five seconds, and I'll find stories on Google. There is literally no excuse for how the teacher handled it, as it shows gross insensitivity to the issue at hand (you go to a teacher to confide, and that is one way to have it broken). People here keeps popping up with their motivational stories about how they were bullied and snapped right out of it. It doesn't always work like that. Suicide via bullying is increasing at an alarming rate, and it's easy for it to spread - it isn't always heckling.

Though to be honest, the issue here isn't bullying in and of itself, which, apparently, we seem to be very dismissive of. It is the way the teacher responded, which is a good way to get fired. School is a place to learn, and it is the right for every child enrolled to get an education, unmolested. If a bullying problem is persisting, it is their job to intervine to the best of their abilities. If all they have is "act less gay", then maybe this is the wrong job.



There is a saying that goes, "life isn't fair."


This doesn't really address my post much, considering I was stating the same thing, in response to his "live a normal life" post (which, ironically, isn't possible for all because 'life isn't fair'). However, life being 'unfair' isn't much of an excuse. Life certainly isn't bleak, and if you want things like this to stop, you gotta get over that 'life is unfair' mentality. Life is only unfair when you lie down and take it.

FreakyLocz14
November 8th, 2011, 10:16 PM
I actually think fighting back is a great idea. We have a right to defend ourselves in this country. While deadly force obviously would be excessive, giving these bullies a good, old-fashioned, arse-whooping would teach them a thing or two.

Zet
November 8th, 2011, 10:19 PM
I actually think fighting back is a great idea. We have a right to defend ourselves in this country. While deadly force obviously would be excessive, giving these bullies a good, old-fashioned, arse-whooping would teach them a thing or two.

Usually bullies are strong; that's why they're called bullies after all.

FreakyLocz14
November 8th, 2011, 10:26 PM
Usually bullies are strong; that's why they're called bullies after all.

I'd at least want to attempt to fight back, even if I end up losing in the end. If I was much weaker than my bully, I'd get a few friends together and jump him (or her).

shenanigans
November 9th, 2011, 03:52 PM
Usually bullies are strong; that's why they're called bullies after all.

In my experience (and this is literally all I have to go on so I guess I'm just throwing it out there), the bullies are usually the ones with the sharp tongues as opposed to physical strength. I guess they come in both... uh, for lack of a better term, varieties, but so does everyone. Idk I wouldn't completely agree here BUT I'M BEING DIFFICULT DISREGARD ME.

I'm going to be completely honest here. Short of kicking students out, which most schools don't really like to do, there's not a great amount that teachers can do to stop bullies. Either the bully has to change or the bullied has to change. And, very unfortunately, it's usually the bullied because bullies tend to get some kinda weird twisted pleasure out of being bullies in the first place. While what the teachers in question said was probably wrong and definitely not politically correct, they have a point. If someone is being bullied for the sort of things mentioned in the OP... then maybe they should consider changing those things if the abuse they're getting from bullies is worse than the happiness brought to them by whatever those things are. I'm not trying to say that it's ok for the teachers to say what they said because it isn't. But, when
How many bullies have you known about that really gave a damn what the teacher told them?
is accurate imo, there's not much else that can be done other than to advise changing whatever's causing the problem. And while teachers shouldn't say these kind of things, they sometimes have to. The same way that people shouldn't be bullied for being what they want to be, bullies shouldn't be allowed to make people feel inferior for something that they chose to be, and whatever else. These are all bad things but realistically they all happen when they shouldn't. So I guess sometimes some harsh and somewhat unfair on the face of things advice needs to be given.

tl;dr, bullying sucks.

chella182
November 10th, 2011, 07:00 AM
Haircuts and styles is a different matter because it was against our school rules to have crazy colours and stuff, so yeah. Do that and you're breaking the rules, so doing it is probably silly 'cause you'll get crap from the teachers as well as possibly being bullied.

The "act less gay" thing is unacceptable, though. Honestly. Like I remember their was a kid in our school who was... camp, for want of a better word, but he wasn't gay at all but he got teased about it. It was just who he was and how he acted. To tell him to "act less gay" would just be ridiculous. What constitutes "acting gay", anyway? It's just a stupid thing to say.

I know full well that most teachers can't deal with bullying though, I experienced this in school. They're more interested in making the situation go away (for them, not for the bullied) rather than actually solving it. And in my school they were reluctant to expell pupils because if they were expelled from our school, they couldn't go to the one up the road either. Even though some of them blatantly deserved to get kicked out. I can't believe more training in bullying isn't given to be honest. It's a problem every school has (my school claimed not to have a bullying problem... yeah right!) so every teacher should be equipped on some level to deal with it properly.

Oryx
November 10th, 2011, 08:17 AM
Any animosity teachers show towards students is usually projection; they're not wanting the children they're guiding to become successful like they wished they had been. Also, being in school isn't that hard, it's actually quite easy in comparison to later life. The students in question should relish their reclined lifestyle, for it won't last long.

To be fair, this doesn't apply to everyone obviously. There are plenty of people that the worst and hardest part of their lives was dealing with the social issues in school.

Azzurra
November 10th, 2011, 08:25 AM
To be fair, this doesn't apply to everyone obviously. There are plenty of people that the worst and hardest part of their lives was dealing with the social issues in school.
For most the population, it does apply. By implying that people can't get over what happened at school if they've been out of it for years (theoretically) you're also saying that they have undisclosed mental issues to boot.

If becoming socially redundant results from isolation at school, things have changed majorly since I've graduated.

Exzessiva
November 10th, 2011, 08:35 AM
Usually bullies are strong; that's why they're called bullies after all.

Yeah I have encountered such strong bullies myself. During that time, it feels like "How the hell did I end up in a situation like this?". It's embarrassing to get surrounded or being rebuked or worst of all being hit by them.

In my school these things went unnoticed which really surprised me. Teachers may get a wind of such harrassments but would keep silent. That was really annoying. One of the reasons why they kept silent because the bullies comprised of their favorite students.

Oryx
November 10th, 2011, 08:47 AM
For most the population, it does apply. By implying that people can't get over what happened at school if they've been out of it for years (theoretically) you're also saying that they have undisclosed mental issues to boot.

If becoming socially redundant results from isolation at school, things have changed majorly since I've graduated.

There are people who think school is easy and there are people who think high school is hard. There are people that have to work through school and get good grades. There are people that are black and go to a school in Tennessee. There are people with different experiences than you, and projecting your personal experiences in school onto other people doesn't mean that it's true. I'm not saying someone can't "get over it", I'm saying for some people it's much harder than when they graduate.

Azzurra
November 10th, 2011, 08:51 AM
There are people who think school is easy and there are people who think high school is hard. There are people that have to work through school and get good grades. There are people that are black and go to a school in Tennessee. There are people with different experiences than you, and projecting your personal experiences in school onto other people doesn't mean that it's true. I'm not saying someone can't "get over it", I'm saying for some people it's much harder than when they graduate.
Using a stereotypical racist remark to back up your argument doesn't do you any favours. Sure, highschool is "hard" for some people, but they're emotionally weak and are the ones that end up pulling a Columbine. Look at Seung Hui Cho, for example. He had similar "bad" experiences and ended up killing a shitload of people for that reason, and that doesn't help validate your point, either.

Oryx
November 10th, 2011, 08:56 AM
Using a sterotypical racist remark to back up your argument doesn't do you any favours. Sure, highschool is "hard" for some people, but they're emotionally weak and are the ones that end up pulling a Columbine. Look at Seung Hui Cho, for example. He had similar "bad" experiences and ended up killing a shitload of people for that reason, and that doesn't help validate your point, either.

The remark was implying that in general it's more difficult for minorities living in a state that's known to still hold on to some level of racism (If you'd like I can replace that with Texas where I have personal experience with it).

I think the difference between what you're saying and what I'm saying is that I'm not saying that people can't handle it, or anything about emotional states or what students to to deal with hardships. All I'm saying is that to assume that everyone has an easier time in school than they do in the real world is false and projecting your own experiences onto other people. I'm only objecting to the quote "being in school isn't that hard, it's actually quite easy in comparison to later life".

Esper
November 10th, 2011, 09:43 AM
The remark was implying that in general it's more difficult for minorities living in a state that's known to still hold on to some level of racism (If you'd like I can replace that with Texas where I have personal experience with it).

I think the difference between what you're saying and what I'm saying is that I'm not saying that people can't handle it, or anything about emotional states or what students to to deal with hardships. All I'm saying is that to assume that everyone has an easier time in school than they do in the real world is false and projecting your own experiences onto other people. I'm only objecting to the quote "being in school isn't that hard, it's actually quite easy in comparison to later life".
I would like to back up this point by using myself as an example. I had a very hard time in high school, but once I was out I found I had more going for me, more freedom, and I generally feel a lot better now than I did then.

I'm not saying that my life right now is a breeze because there are plenty of things that I have to do that are hard, but on the whole I'm handling everything much better, I'm happier, etc.