Is university worth it?

[Kanzler]

So I've just graduated from university a couple days back, and it's got me thinking.

Were those four years worth it?

Is it still worth it to pursue a university education as tuition rises and the prospects for employment seem bleaker than ever? Yet it appears that everybody wants a Bachelor's degree these days, so perhaps it's almost unavoidable to get such a degree as a prerequisite for employment. Are there any alternatives to the Bachelor's degree as the default educational attainment for most people (In Canada and the USA, 26% and 33%, respectively, of the population aged 25-64 have university degrees)?

What should the young adults of today and tomorrow do about this? Try to discuss beyond personal experience and address society at large.

 

[Zeffy]

If you live in a country with high tuition fees and plenty of employment opportunities, it's probably not worth it. The main thing here is cost versus reward, really. If you look at it in a super economic point of view, going to university is potentially the worst thing you could do because a) you're "throwing away," and I use this term lightly, four or more years of your life and b) a Bachelor's degree is pretty much useless without experience/good references to back it up.

But then again that brings up the question of what are you trying to achieve by going to university? If you're there simply because you want to learn, there are probably better sources of learning, but none of them are more accredited than a Bachelor's degree. If you're there to get a degree to be able to get a decent job, then statistically your chances of landing a decent job is insignificantly higher than those without a degree but with plenty of experience within the same field.

Either way, I think it's important to remember that the best thing you get from university is the whole experience of it. As Ernest Hemingway eloquently said, "it is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end."

 

[gimmepie]

Whether or not university is worth it or not really depends on the person I think. I could give a big detailed reply I guess but really what it comes down to is "Is that career what I want to do with my life?" and "Is getting into that career worth the years of stress and effort and the expense to me?".

Basically, if you can only get into the only job you want to do by getting a degree and spending those years at university, the hell yes it's worth it. However, if you be just as happy working in retail then it really isn't worth spending all that money on fees and books and spending all those extra years studying.

 

[Charlie Brown]

I think for a lot of disciplines, university on its own isn't enough. It gives you a formal qualification, yes, but university degrees are becoming more common so the value of that formal qualification has decreased. I think what's more important is not just having a university degree but also having experience alongside that - whether it's volunteering, internships, or paid work. University only teaches you so much. A lot of general courses tend not to go too far into the practical side of things but more on theories that aren't as easy to apply in real-life scenarios, and skills that you can gain from a degree like critical thinking or problem-solving are intangible until they're used. So I think it's important to make use of your university years as not only a time to study and gain a degree, but also a time to try new things and gain new and diverse experiences, to actually try and apply what you're learning in the classroom in a real-life setting. Employees are often hesitant to recruit someone with no experience, so I think you're shooting yourself in the foot if you don't try and gain experience throughout university. Similar to what Hermione Granger (the user) said above, university should be treated as an overall experience - it needs to be thought of as more than just learning in the classroom.

 

[Circuit]

This is yet another subjective question that I can only offer my experience to, and I cannot speak for anyone else who has done something differently.

In England, the price of university tuition is now £9,000 per year. For a bachelor's that's £27,000, for a Masters £36,000, before any other costs are applied on top of this. You have yet to pay accomodation fees, books, food and so on. And most of the time this ends up as debt left to pay back after you earn enough money. But even then this money isn't completely paid back, as the debt gets written off after 30 years. Money down the drain for the economy, and very much in my opinion the wrong approach to the situation.

Even with student loans I would never have been able to afford university, and as such I began looking for other options, alternatives to university. I quickly looked to apprenticeships, and applied for one I found that sounded too good to be true. This guaranteed me a job when the course was over. Of course I applied. With employment rates so low, and many students coming out of university and being unable to find a job, this was like striking gold. I got the apprenticeship, and here I am, a year in. Of course, there have been struggles with it, but these aren't course based.

I get paid monthly for this course and at the end, should I pass, I will go home to be earning around £21,000 a year, or so I've been told. I am studying to become an electrical engineer, so you know.

For me, university is not worth it in any case while things like apprenticeships exist, but the places available in apprenticeships are so low, getting on one is extremely hard, and I can tell you I am one of six people, out of over 1,000 people, who got this chance. I feel extremely privileged and lucky to be in the situation I am, and would 100% recommend trying for an apprenticeship instead of university. This is not only because you don't end up in debt at the end, but because nowadays, employers are looking more and more for actually job experience, rather than a shiny degree, making these university courses more and more obsolete as they don't actually achieve what an employer wants.

Someone who used to study at my old high school achieved perfect grades in the course I too enrolled on. And that is extremely hard to do. So hard in fact, he was hunted by news reporters for his feat. However, he wasn't hunted for the fact he'd achieved this no. He was hunted because despite achieving this, he was able to score neither a university place nor a job. He had achieved perfect grades but even McDonalds turned him down for being "too qualified".

My conclusion, and this is only my conclusion, is that university is become ever less worth the ever increasing cost, and is less and less likely to score you a job, unless your degree is related to science and engineering, computing or banking. Every other degree I've seen people achieve has achieved next to nothing in helping them find a job.

 

[Kanzler]

Whether or not university is worth it or not really depends on the person I think. I could give a big detailed reply I guess but really what it comes down to is "Is that career what I want to do with my life?" and "Is getting into that career worth the years of stress and effort and the expense to me?".

What about a more global level? Do you think a university education should be sought after by most people? Should most of our workforce consist of university graduates, and should most of the population pursue a university degree?

My conclusion, and this is only my conclusion, is that university is become ever less worth the ever increasing cost, and is less and less likely to score you a job, unless your degree is related to science and engineering, computing or banking. Every other degree I've seen people achieve has achieved next to nothing in helping them find a job.

But on the other hand, wouldn't it be harder to become hired without a university degree? So even if the value of a university degree is, according to you, less and less worth its increasing cost, doesn't it remain just as essential as an educational attainment?

For example, let's say a hundred years ago, much fewer people pursued a high school education. Now the vast majority of people graduate from high school and so your diploma just isn't competitive anymore. But just because it's worth much less now, doesn't mean it's any less essential.

 

[Kotone]

lately i've been thinking the same way. i'm just getting my associates at a community college for now, but is it really worth going on for a 4 year degree? i mean by the time we graduate, we are still gonna have to pay to take some classes with certain degrees. also, look at some people who DONT go to college such as athletes and celebrities. we are paying to get a degree that isn't going to pay us much while other people don't go to college and get WAY more.
*sigh*

 

[Circuit]

But on the other hand, wouldn't it be harder to become hired without a university degree? So even if the value of a university degree is, according to you, less and less worth its increasing cost, doesn't it remain just as essential as an educational attainment?

For example, let's say a hundred years ago, much fewer people pursued a high school education. Now the vast majority of people graduate from high school and so your diploma just isn't competitive anymore. But just because it's worth much less now, doesn't mean it's any less essential.

Erm, not going to lie, everything you just said is entirely contradictory, and made very little sense. If the value of a diploma is decrease, that doesn't mean it's worth stays the same. It means it decreases... If the necessity of a diploma decreases because employers are looking for experience rather than education, that means the diploma is become less valuable, and less useful as a means to attain a job.

Yes, the diploma being worth less DOES mean it's less essential, because it cannot be used to secure a job unless the degree is outstanding in comparison to its competition, which is something incredibly rare these days, since so many people are going to university.

The focus for employers, as far as I've witnessed, is more on experience, rather than education and turning up with only a university degree and nothing else doesn't get many people very far.

 

[Kanzler]

Erm, not going to lie, everything you just said is entirely contradictory, and made very little sense. If the value of a diploma is decrease, that doesn't mean it's worth stays the same. It means it decreases... If the necessity of a diploma decreases because employers are looking for experience rather than education, that means the diploma is become less valuable, and less useful as a means to attain a job.

Yes, the diploma being worth less DOES mean it's less essential, because it cannot be used to secure a job unless the degree is outstanding in comparison to its competition, which is something incredibly rare these days, since so many people are going to university.

The focus for employers, as far as I've witnessed, is more on experience, rather than education and turning up with only a university degree and nothing else doesn't get many people very far.

I think you're conflating the factors of relative worth and essentialness. Consider my example again: a high school diploma today when pretty much everybody has one means much less than it did a hundred years ago when pretty much nobody had one. But it doesn't mean that a high school diploma is any less essential - your job prospects without a high school diploma is incredibly low, to the point that in America they have this thing called the GED, which allows people who haven't completed high school to earn an equivalent credential. So we've established that it's possible for a diploma to be worth less and less while remaining essential. In other words, when the standard had been raised, meeting the standard is less big of a deal, but the standard remains the standard. I think that makes sense.

Now I would argue that a university degree is not less essential because even though possessing a university degree is increasingly not sufficient to get a job, it remains just as necessary and hence essential. Would you say that a university degree is no longer a standard for educational attainment? And that you (and by you I mean most people) could get by without a university degree in today's job market? Remember that networking and experience is not mutually exclusive to getting a degree - in fact, the process of getting a degree presents many opportunities to network and gain experience.

 

[Circuit]

-snip-

I would argue that I'm not confusing any terms at all. I would also refer you to my statement "This is yet another subjective question that I can only offer my experience to, and I cannot speak for anyone else who has done something differently." where I do state that this is purely my experiences and thoughts. Also consider that I originate from England, and as such any education systems that you may have experience with do not apply to my case and vice cersa.

Now I shall state once again, because I'm pretty sure I said it in less definite terms, that if a university degree, or any official educational achievement, grants entry into the working world less, then its necessity would also decrease.

For example. You have a key, that opens all the doors in your house. But one day you change the locks to the doors in and out of the house. Ok, the key is still valuable in this case, but its necessity has decreased, because it no longer opens all the essential doors, only some. I no longer rely upon holding this key to gain entry to my house, only the rooms inside it. Now I change the locks to all main rooms (i.e. living room, dining room, kitchen, bathroom, bedrooms). The key I hold has once again lost necessity to me, since I no longer need this key to open the rooms I frequent on a daily basis. Eventually, all the locks but one have been changed. The key now has very little necessity in my life, unless I want to open that one door I rarely use within my house.

The exact same applies to university courses as I see them in England. University degrees do not open all the doors like they used to a hundred years ago. They now only open that one door that is rarely opened. And yes, that door is still opened, but by very, very few people. hence my argument that a university degree has lost value and necessity in acquiring a job.

Now think about a key that, no matter what the lock is, it will open that lock. That is how I'm seeing actual working experience, in England. The more experience you have in a job, the more doors you can open, the more opportunities you have. Experience only increases your opportunities in life, while a university degree will open very few, and won't ever open more doors than the ones it can. That is why I feel that a university degree is become less and less valuable, and less and less essential.

 

[Kanzler]

You raise a good point here, Kanzler! Buuut, I think you're overlooking a few things. Now, this is purely subjective, so forgive me of my arguments are full of anecdotal hogwash, but from the interviews and recruiters I've met, they've always seem more and more interested in my past jobs and how I've handled them. They want to know exactly how one thinks out of the box, your personality as you answer these questions, your character, all the little bits and pieces that make you...well, you.

It is because of this that I think it is absolutely 100% possible to go by in today's job market without a degree--so long as you possess the necessary experience equivalent to an individual who has a degree in that specific field (which you'll see in a lot of job descriptions in the US if you're not from here, idk how it is in the rest of the world). If you have enough experience and networking throughout your 4-6 years of schooling, that's great! You can usually accomplish this through extracurricular activities, school projects, volunteering, things of that nature. But don't be surprised when people who have worked less than the time you've went to school pretty much get the same job that you do, simply because they either have the know-how to get that particular job or they have a network of people who can vouch for them to get into that position quickly and thus voiding the degree requirement.

I hope this makes sense!

Absolutely. But what I'm more concerned with here is what is applicable to most people? There will always be those who can accomplish great things without doing the things that most other people do. Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard to start Microsoft. But most of us are not Bill Gates, and while many of us might be able to manage to get jobs on networking alone, I think most of us would agree that it's not something that you can rely on. There might be a rough patch in your life when you don't have anybody to reach out to. You might simply not know that many people in the first place. I think "most" people can relate to those sentiments.

So while it is absolutely 100% possible to go by in today's job market without a degree (and it has been demonstrated many times over), can we scale the experiences of individuals to that of society? Is that picture realistic for most people? I would say no. Also, interviewers would never be interested in your grades and degrees because that would be a waste of interviewing time. It is in the nature of grades and a diploma that you don't need to talk about them per se. They are a standard and an objective one at that - you can probably do creative writing of around ~1000 words, you can manage reading that's significantly heavier than that of news articles, you can manage ~20 hours of work a week, and that you can reliably understand, process, and synthesize information. The interviewer would need to delve deeper than that of course, but they will still have a basic understanding of your basic capabilities with the knowledge that you have a university degree.

While we can celebrate the achievements of individuals and focus on what's possible, I think it is more important to emphasize what is probable. If you have connections, then you've already demonstrated everything you need to demonstrate. But if you need to gain a job as a complete stranger, wouldn't it be better to have a university experience and degree?

Now I shall state once again, because I'm pretty sure I said it in less definite terms, that if a university degree, or any official educational achievement, grants entry into the working world less, then its necessity would also decrease.

I still think you're confusing a sufficient condition with a necessary condition. To use an extreme example, your life is necessary to your getting a job. It is, of course, by no means sufficient. Now just because it is not sufficient at all to grant entry into the working world, has it necessity decreased in any way? Of course not - because you can't get a job if you're not alive! And as for my original argument - it is still just as necessary to obtain a university degree for most people to gain a job of their liking (because we could all work at McDonald's, if we really wanted to) because without it, your chances would be much less.

 

[Ullion]

In my personal experience - going to University is better if and only if you know exactly what you want to get into when you're older. You also need to find (as someone mentioned earlier) that finding and gaining experience outside of your schooling helps drastically.

In my first year in chemistry, I went to my first lab and loved it - and one of the TAs told me that I can get hooked up with a professor or a a TA who is running personal experiments/projects and helping them would give me experience to put on my resume. Now this applies to any experimental sciences (and derivatives thereof) but I'm not sure of other courses.

The best thing to do before making a decision, is to decide what goal you want to work towards, and make sure you give yourself the opportunities to get it.

 

[Circuit]

I still think you're confusing a sufficient condition with a necessary condition. To use an extreme example, your life is necessary to your getting a job. It is, of course, by no means sufficient. Now just because it is not sufficient at all to grant entry into the working world, has it necessity decreased in any way? Of course not - because you can't get a job if you're not alive! And as for my original argument - it is still just as necessary to obtain a university degree for most people to gain a job of their liking (because we could all work at McDonald's, if we really wanted to) because without it, your chances would be much less.

Did you even read what I'd put?

And I disagree completely. I'm sitting here, currently in an apprenticeship which will guarantee me the job I want, should I pass the exams. I've never been to university, nor will I, but I will still get the job I've chosen to go for, a job I want to do.

In no circumstance is any kind of degree 'necessary' or 'essential'. A job can be achieved completely without any kind of degree whatsoever, if you have the wit, and skill.

And if you want to take into account the vast majority of people out there, then again, my argument is still no, a university degree is not necessary, as basic high school grades can get you to where you need to go. The university degree gives you an edge. Nothing more. It makes you look good, so you stand out. But there are many many other ways to achieve this. A university degree is not the be-all-end-all of getting a job. Its necessity has decreased, since there are a variety of different methods being introduced daily to introduce young people into work.

My cousin works for a charity helping young, homeless children abroad, and in particular, she works in creating new schemes to introduce young people into the line of work, giving them experience for a job later on in life, but also gives them a chance to work for the charity. This is not an apprenticeship scheme, nor is it a university degree, but the outcome is the same.

You want us to look at the bigger picture, to see what most people have to depend on to get a job? If anything, university is the worst thing for that, as it not only plunges you head first into a ton debt, but also gives not guarantee on a job upon the closure of the degree, but is also university degrees are become more and more common, and getting young people fewer jobs.

Let me define two words for you here:
Necessary: something that is essential, indispensable or requisite

Essential: The same as necessary

A university degree does not in any circumstance fit these categories in terms of getting a job. In not one person's circumstance will a university degree ever be a requisite to obtaining a job. And in today's society where everybody and anybody is going to university to get a job, simply having a university degree alone doesn't count for much anymore, and throws you into a lottery to be randomly picked against everybody else with the same degree.

I do not argue that a university degree facilitates acquiring a job, but in this day and age, you need other experiences or qualifications to add to you CV in order to stand out, and really achieve the job you want.

 

[Nah]

This is the key statement to me here:

Now I would argue that a university degree is not less essential because even though possessing a university degree is increasingly not sufficient to get a job, it remains just as necessary and hence essential.

A university degree is usually necessary in order for employers to even look at you. However, it does nothing beyond that because everyone and their mom is applying for the position and also has a degree, and they can't hire everyone who applies. So they have to look beyond that to figure out who is potentially the best hire amongst the applicants. They look at what experience you have, what people you know (I never did understand why this one seems to matter so much), what skills you possess, etc.....all things that don't necessarily come with the degree listed on the resume.

College/university is "worth it" if you get more than just the fancy piece of paper out of it.

 

[Kanzler]

Well, yes, I should clarify myself.

In no circumstance is any kind of degree 'necessary' or 'essential'. A job can be achieved completely without any kind of degree whatsoever, if you have the wit, and skill.

That is correct, except if you want to become a doctor, or a lawyer, or a engineer I suppose? There are many jobs that can be achieved without a degree, and that is very much a possibility. But I don't suppose that it's quite the "probability". YOU are sitting there in an apprenticeship. You and five others out of, how many, 1000 applicants? Perhaps many of them were like you and they wanted to do the very same job you are doing now. But what about the rest of us? Is a university degree worth it for most people?

I would say yes. Let's start by considering the numbers. According to the OECD (here), over 60% of young people in the OECD are expected to enter university-level education during their lifetime. University-level education appears to be available to most people. So even before we discuss its benefits, we can establish it's something clearly available for the masses. On the other hand, an average of 17% of young adults in the OECD are expected to enter vocational-training programs such as your own. So while getting a job through an apprenticeship worked out for you, it wouldn't be a realistic option for most people, relative to getting a university degree.

Bachelor's degrees also have higher earning potential throughout their lives: here for example, and here. Also it teaches you other things which John Green talks about and might be addressed in my other thread here. But let's just stay here with the economics: on average, Bachelor's degree holders earn more over their lifetimes (and have access to more jobs, and hence a better chance of finding something you want) and that makes a university education worth it because most people would be able to end up paying off the debt.

A university degree is not necessary to get a job. That statement is true. People are capable of getting fulfilling jobs without a university degree, that is also true. But let's go back to the OP and discuss whether it's worth it. It's not necessary for every job, but like Nah points out, it's necessary for many jobs, especially those which tend to pay more (and they are many and quite varied). Is it a worthwhile investment to obtain something that, while is not absolutely necessary to get a job, necessary to give you access to more and higher paying ones? In purely economic terms, if it pays off the debts (which I have shown above) and then some, then yes, and we're not talking about the other benefits.

And I acknowledge that you've asked me to reread your posts and I have. I disagree with your appraisal of a university degree as a poor key for the reasons I have listed above, and I'll point out that the experience of you and your cousin, although undoubtedly successes, does not speak for the masses. In return, I'll ask you to revisit what I discussed about necessity and sufficiency. I don't believe that a university degree is the be-all-and-end-all, because in that case I would have argued for both its necessity and sufficiency; I argued only for its necessity (qualified with everything discussed above and in Nah's post). And just because something is less valuable (in relative terms, in absolute terms a university education (hopefully) gives you the same perspective and context it always has) does not make it any less necessary.

I'm not going to address that bit about a university education "throwing you into a lottery to be randomly picked against everyone else". That's simply not true, take flight's experience in this very thread, for instance. I don't see why gaining a degree would make the job application process any more random, that's a pretty strong claim.

 

[Circuit]

(My god stop editing your post, I've got 6 notifications lmao)

Your first statement claiming that you need a university degree to become a doctor lawyer or engineer is incorrect. I myself am in an apprenticeship to become an engineer, so that's not correct. If that's the case for engineering, then I would also presume that similar set-ups exist for medical training and law. They may not, and may be yet to come, but hey, I imagine many people are looking into it. In that case then yes, in this very minor case a university degree is necessary.

In England (which is where my argument still applies, and nowhere else because I've not got the experience) the percentage of students who come out of university and enter a job within six months of leaving is less than 20%. The number of students who enter a job within one year is still less than 40%, last I checked. The rates of apprentices completing their courses and entering a job within six months is above 70%, if I recall correctly, which I may not, human error, I apologise in advance.

If you take that into account, then it doesn't really look like having a university degree is getting many people anywhere, at least certainly not the majority of people. I don't know how the system works in America, so there actually isn't much point in you constantly debating against what I'm saying, because it hardly applies at all.

However, with so many people in England coming out of university and being unable to score a job to even begin to pay off their debts, I said that no, university in my opinion is not worth it. I stand by that opinion because of the reasons I've previously stated, as applied to England.

This applied to my future not too long ago, and I spent a lot of time researching what would really be the best option for me, to find a stable future. The facts and figures relating to university were worrying, to say the least, and did not fill me with any sense of confidence that achieving a university degree would actually improve my situation any, other than set me back over £27,000, which I would not have been able to afford in the first place. I am an average person who's parents had an average income. The majority, that you want to talk about, are me. Yes, many go anyway, but they end up in a ton of debt to the country.

Another reason that university, to me talking about England, isn't worth it is that the loans students are taking for university come from the government. And don't get fully paid back, often leaving thousands of pounds unpaid. This in itself is ruining the country. And with so many students taking out loans, that's a lot of thousands swirling the drain. This is very damaging to the country, and I feel stops university being as good a call as people think.

Anyway, my fingers damn hurt now, I've retyped this like five times ¬_¬ So I'm going to leave it there.

 

[Kanzler]

If you take that into account, then it doesn't really look like having a university degree is getting many people anywhere, at least certainly not the majority of people. I don't know how the system works in America, so there actually isn't much point in you constantly debating against what I'm saying, because it hardly applies at all.

But getting a job within six months of graduation is not the only factor. How do you explain the higher average lifetime payout? Apprenticeships might be able to get you job security in the short term, but it does not pay as high in the long run. Also, according to this report (page 19), 61% of graduates from Class of 2012/2013 are able to obtain professional-level jobs within six months, not 20%. Also, students who graduate university often take further education, whether that be in a professional or graduate school. This also contributes to why fewer university grads have secured a job within six months of graduation but I don't think we should consider this a bad thing.

However, with so many people in England coming out of university and being unable to score a job to even begin to pay off their debts, I said that no, university in my opinion is not worth it. I stand by that opinion because of the reasons I've previously stated, as applied to England.

Even if so many people come out of university and are unable to score a job, their chances are in general better than those who don't have a university degree. Also, average annual wages are higher for degree holders, and for the most part, outstrip the debt you incur. According to the BBC, the average person earns an extra 12k pounds with a degree. And according to The Independent, average UK student debt is 44k pounds. As scary as 44k looks, it only takes four years of the average 12k annual increase in lifetime earnings to pay back student loans. As far as we're concerned with the data, it seems that, yeah you'll be making more money with a university education than with out - student debt included.

Another reason that university, to me talking about England, isn't worth it is that the loans students are taking for university come from the government. And don't get fully paid back, often leaving thousands of pounds unpaid. This in itself is ruining the country. And with so many students taking out loans, that's a lot of thousands swirling the drain. This is very damaging to the country, and I feel stops university being as good a call as people think.

As for student loans being a drag on the economy, they are. But having a university-educated workforce is also good for the economy. I wouldn't say that student debt has been crippling any countries, however. Tuition and debt has certainly been rising for students, and that's not good for anybody. From a moral point of view, it's scandalous - university students do deserve better. But while debt is undeserved, and job hunting is a pain in the ass, the evidence that I have presented demonstrates that a university degree is still worth it, at least in the long run. Anyways, where are you getting your sources from? Some of the numbers are rather extreme.

I'd be interested if anybody has experience living or studying in Germany, because it's the one example that jumps out as a high-income Western society that doesn't emphasize university education as much.

 

[Circuit]

PAH. FOUR YEARS TO PAY OF £44K?! ARE YOU JOKING?!

Lmao, the average post-grad in the UK does NOT pay off £44k in four years. Hell, not even the upper-class people could pay that off in four years jesus christ! That is not how it works at all, I'm afraid, and I wish it did, otherwise I'd have been the first one racking up a shit-ton of debt to get an amazing job like that. I've spoken to people first hand paying back student loan, and people fresh out of university, and heard mainly the same thing: they can't get a job, and paying back the debt is very hard.

Like seriously, think about this. £44k debt repaid in four years? That's £11k per year. That's over half of the average post-grad's wage, IF they even get a job! Now trust me, I know the figures, because I researched them fully along with help from first-years at uni and family and friends, and they really are not that high any more. The number of people coming out of university and going into jobs is definitely NOT 61%. Less than half go into jobs after 6 months now.

Higher lifetime payout? I'm not sure where you got the information that this directly correlates with a uni degree, but that's kinda false, and would be a huge prejudice within the working world. Of course, if you want to move up to a different job within your unit that requires a degree, then yes, you won't be able to move up, but then that also applies to post-grads who also don't have said degree.

You seem to think that having a degree anywhere means super jobs, super wages, no worries. I don't know about America, but I can tell you that in England, that is not the case. Getting a job in England is extremely competitive, and you have to be the best of the best at the moment to find a decent one. This involves experience, and having every extra qualification you can think of to show that you're not just some run-of-the-mill post-grad. The same applies here in Germany to a lesser extent. Here in Germany, a lot of focus is put onto apprenticeships, because the government realises that university just isn't getting students the future and jobs that apprenticeships can. A lot of students now take on apprenticeships here, because it's a much more rewarding scheme, that doesn't land you in debt that you can't pay off, and grants you entrance to the working world a lot more successfully than uni does.

Germany doesn't emphasise university, because it realises that university is a dying cause, and more and more people are looking to apprenticeships, because they are more successful, and more rewarding to the apprentice.

 

[Ullion]

So the Canadian dollar is complete garbage right now, but I paid off ~$22, 000 in debt in about a year after leaving university. Mind you, I moved back home and got a job with 2 weeks after leaving University, so I could make and save money quite easily.

Ninja, in the UK - how much do you usually make as a starting wage for entry-level jobs?

 

[Circuit]

Start level wage can be as low as £15,000, which isn't even enough money to begin paying off your student loan. And most people don't have the opportunity to just sit at home and relax after studying. People in England have to move where the work is, or become the 27 year olds who still live with their parents with no job or plans to support themselves. England loans and university and jobs and everything works very differently to that of the USA, or most of mainland Europe for that matter.