What do you hate seeing in stories?

About the journey fics that turn into something else as it goes along thing, I don't think the writers plan for something like that to happen. It doesn't matter what idea you have in the future for you fic, it's safe to say that it'll change as you go along. Maybe the writers just find their stories are focusing on something other than the badges or journey, and just decide to take it in that direction.

matt0044 said:

Plus, I do think that it's important to start a journey fic with the Main character(s) getting their first Pokemon since it's better to have an origin from the get-go. However, it shouldn't just be so straight-forward as the Trainer getting his first Pokemon and Pokedex.

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Rachel from Generation 2021 never gets a Pokédex. It's not really standard to get one of those, really. I find that the ones that do have those tend to use it as filler, which annoys me.

Dagzar said:

About the journey fics that turn into something else as it goes along thing, I don't think the writers plan for something like that to happen. It doesn't matter what idea you have in the future for you fic, it's safe to say that it'll change as you go along. Maybe the writers just find their stories are focusing on something other than the badges or journey, and just decide to take it in that direction.

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This is true. For a journey fic to stay a determined, course-bound journey fic the whole way through would be quite boring, to say the least. Even the journey in the canon games isn't quite as linear as some people take it to be.

Astinus said:

That's why I don't like reading a lot of new trainer journey fics, since the author feels as if they must start with meeting the starting Pokemon. Then the fic might head down the path of the slow start, where nothing happens for several chapters as the trainer goes through the standard battling of the first wild Pokemon and all that.

It's better to skip the generic beginning if it's necessary to do so. Tell the meeting of trainer and Pokemon through back story.

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Yes, but as I said before, you can have the "generic" beginning but also add on to it. Like have the main Trainer(s) not only get their first Pokemon and meet their rivals but also have the evil team of the region featured (such as having them attack the lab or something). Like there's an overall plot to the fic and the beginning featuring the Professor giving the Trainer(s) his/her Pokemon is essential to getting the reader(s) hooked.

It all depends on how people handle it. Sometimes it can be generic and other times it can be innovated and creative. It's not right to assume that some things are always bad when they can be good.

matt0044 said:

Like there's an overall plot to the fic and the beginning featuring the Professor giving the Trainer(s) his/her Pokemon is essential to getting the reader(s) hooked.

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Is it though? Can't the reader be hooked by the story beginning at a later date in the trainer's journey? It's not always essential to have an original trainer story begin with the trainer getting their starting Pokemon. Like what was said: sometimes it's just better to start where the story is actually supposed to begin. Otherwise, the story stalls out a bit because the author tacked on a getting-the-starter beginning and made it exciting to hook the reader, but stalls for a bit until they get where the story can pick up again. It would be better, in that scenario, to just skip the general beginning and start where the plot starts, hooking the reader that way. Because some plots can't begin with an attack on the lab by the evil team. Some plots begin months after the starting Pokemon event.

I'm not saying that all journey fics have bad beginnings. I'm just saying that when the author feels forced to begin their fic with the new trainer starting their journey instead of skipping it, then it's bad. Because that's not where the plot should begin.

matt0044 said:

In other words, I'm doing that whole "generic" beginning but I'm really starting the plot there. If I were to skip it all and show it in a flashback, I wouldn't like it and neither would the readers.

Not that skipping said beginning can't ever work. I'm just saying that not skipping it can work when the author puts some thought into it and plans things out.​

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Skipping that beginning works for fanfics where the plot doesn't begin there.

Not every author fully plans out their story.

Sometimes, fully planning out the story still means that the beginning happens after the starting Pokemon is received.

What works for you as a writer does not hold true for every other writer out there.

Yes, if the story should begin with the starter Pokemon event, then start it there. But if it starts days/weeks/months after that, no matter how much planning the author puts into it, then the story should begin where the plot begins.

matt0044 said:

Well, it's not always like that. I think the reason for that is because the authors were starting the fic without any proper planning and they needed a good beginning to start them off. I know that from experience.

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I'm going to be extremely blunt for a moment. Your-cursor-is-over-the-report-button-blunt, but really, there's no polite way to say this.

You know, matt, since you've joined the SPPf and PC writing communities, you've said a lot of things that have outright bewildered me. The things you've said on this thread, though? Bewilder me more than anything else.

How exactly does "not starting off with the same beginning as 90% of all journey fics" = "author didn't plan"? Because I'm seriously outright confused here, and I'd like to know how this thread of logic works. I mean, according to my logic, which I like to think is pretty sound logic personally, starting off with a cookie-cutter beginning (with the trainer getting their Pokémon, even if you throw in ~*~EXPLOSIONS~*~ somewhere along the line) would betray the fact that you're not only not that creative but also leaning on someone else's plans as a crutch. As in, it doesn't say to me that you planned anything. It just says to me that you're relying on what everyone else is doing, so I have absolutely no idea whether or not you actually did plan anything in advance.

Really, going against convention by starting the story sometime later on down the road shows me that you did do a lot of planning because you'd have to know why you're starting at that particular point, where in the trainer's career this might be, and what needs to come after it. In other words, you're relying more on a plot you've created yourself, rather than some path someone else has carved for you. Basically, the reliance on your own work to start things off tells me that you've at least planned the beginning by yourself (rather than stuck to the generic skeleton of "character wakes up, says farewell to their parents, and goes to get a starter Pokémon from Professor Tree), so in my book, that means you're very likely to be capable of planning things that happen after that. Starting off with a generic beginning just tells me you can read.

But then again, not every writer is the same. I've read fics where the author starts off with the skeleton of the generic beginning, but actually, they planned everything out from start to finish. I've also read fics where the author starts off with a trainer who's already gotten their starter, but they're making crap up as they go along. I can't honestly say that one tells me that the author actually planned their fic in advance -- just that one type of author makes it clear that they're capable of doing it, and even then, being capable is not the same as having actually done it, if that makes sense.

So, to add to this, let me throw in one other point: I've also read all kinds of fics, both planned and not so much, that were abandoned three chapters in.

That's what I really wanted to reply to, actually: your comment that an abandoned fic is the result of someone not planning enough. That's not exactly true. An abandoned fic can happen for an entire variety of reasons. Sometimes, an author might plan so much that they just lose interest in wanting to put the story into words (because they already know everything about how it's going to happen). Other times, the author just doesn't have time to write fic. There's even other times when the author has started getting published, so they can't write fic anymore. It's not just because they don't plan enough, and in fact, that particular reason is the one I see the least often as a reviewer pretty much everywhere. In fact, if anyone's interested, the one I see the most often is, "This story is seriously a bunch of crap because people pointed out plot holes all over the place, so I don't want to have anything to do with it anymore." That doesn't necessarily mean that it's underplanned.

But as for the trainer thing, no, it's not important to every story. It's only important to the stories that actually need to start off that way. Just as every film of a certain genre doesn't necessarily start the same way, no two fics need to have beginnings that are exactly alike. The point of a journey fic is that the trainer goes on a journey, but the definition of what a journey is tends to be looser. Sure, it could be a standard badge quest, but so long as that quest has an end and a point to it, where it begins isn't always set in stone. (I've read some pretty good trainer fics that follow trainers who were formerly champions on badge quests. Unfortunately, I can't think of the name of one at the moment, but I assure you that they do in fact exist... as weak in terms of proof as that might be.) Just as Emerson once likened life to a journey and not a destination, the entire point of a journey is not the two points at the end and beginning of the line. It's about everything that happens in between those two points, so what you do at Point A and Point B is less relevant comparatively. Sure, it's important in that you need a place to start and end your story (obviously), but because the journey itself and what your characters learn along the way take precedence, your Points A and B should morph to fit what you're trying to say between them.

In other words, like the others have said, if you start off with awesome things happening when your character gets a starter but then follow up with absolutely nothing happening for several chapters until your character earns his/her third badge (and note that this is a general "you" and that I have read and understood what you plan to do with your own story, but your story isn't everyone's story), Point A is going to feel like it's tacked on, first off. Second, your reader is going to be disappointed by the lack of anything happening for several chapters. You'll need to grab their attention and hold it, so in that case, having Point A be your character getting a starter isn't going to work.

Not to mention you run at a risk of being written off as just another generic trainer fic, which is also not good advertisement. Just like not all films of a certain genre necessarily have to start basically the exact same way (and it still will be exactly the same as every other fic at its heart, even if you add in ~*~EXPLOSIONS~*~), not all fics of a certain genre have to, either.

And now, Jax is going back into hiatus mode. You're welcome.

To tell the truth, I do like it when the story starts out with trainers getting their starters. It doesn't necessarily have to be from a lab or go in a cookie-cutter way, but there's just something about a journey fic that starts off like that, that appeals to me. Maybe it's nostalgia, but it's a classic, even though writers should really be more original. Besides, people who write journey fics are rarely writing for the plot. They're concern is the characters and the journey itself, and what's more appropriate than starting something like that out from when the journey begins?

I know doing things like that is terrible from a story-perspective, but… I like it. *shrugs*

Dagzar said:

To tell the truth, I do like it when the story starts out with trainers getting their starters. It doesn't necessarily have to be from a lab or go in a cookie-cutter way, but there's just something about a journey fic that starts off like that, that appeals to me. Maybe it's nostalgia, but it's a classic, even though writers should really be more original. Besides, people who write journey fics are rarely writing for the plot. They're concern is the characters and the journey itself, and what's more appropriate than starting something like that out from when the journey begins?

I know doing things like that is terrible from a story-perspective, but… I like it. *shrugs*

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If you like it, that's okay for you, sure, but that's a matter of preference. The point is that it's not necessary for a story to start out that way -- as in, a story can really start out any way you'd like it. Moreover, starting off with a different kind of beginning doesn't mean that the author is less creative or hasn't planned as much as an author who starts off the same way as anyone else. As I've said in the middle of that earlier post, the vice-versa could be true in any situation. Like there are, naturally, fics that haven't been planned out at all that start in the middle of a trainer's journey, there's also fics that start at the beginning of a trainer's journey that have also not been planned out at all. Moreover, there are fics that have been planned out completely in both instances.

So, the real point is that it doesn't matter how you start a story so long as it makes sense to a reader. It's just that there's a lot of people who agree that it is a cliché to start off with the generic skeleton of trainer-gets-starter, and really, you'd use a bit more creativity to start it any other way. I'd hate to put it like that, but if you're not basically doing what everyone else is doing, you're more likely doing your own thing and creating a story as close to from scratch as one can get for the genre. So, yeah, there's that. Tiny pinch more of creativity, which in my personal book means that I'm more likely looking at someone who thinks outside of the box and is at least capable of writing their own story. This doesn't, of course, mean that every single journey fic I've read and actually liked starts off in the middle of a journey. Example: Ultimatum. But of course, Ultimatum's choice for a beginning makes sense for it, so it works.

But back to the point, basically, I wasn't talking about preferences. I was just stating that I have no idea how matt could say (as if it's a fact, not a personal preference) that the starter scene is important for journey fics in general regardless of what their actual plots are, that starting it any other way means that the author didn't plan their fic all the way through, and that an abandoned fic automatically means that the author didn't plan past the part where they abandoned their work. The last point especially, really.

As for the point about where a journey begins, that was one of the points I was trying to make: not every journey has to begin the same way. It depends on one's definition of "journey," and even with the journey fic genre, that tends to be debatable. If it's a badge quest, then the definition is "trainer goes on a quest to earn badges." There's nothing in there that has to say that the trainer needs to start at a professor's laboratory where they'll be selecting their first Pokémon. If it's also a Chosen One fic, then that all depends on the plot and what it means to be a Chosen One. In that case, the Chosen One's journey can begin months before he or she even selects a Pokémon. Yes, a journey fic should start at the beginning (quite obviously), but if we consider the idea that a journey fic is just about everything that happens between Points A and B, then there's nothing in the definition that says it absolutely has to begin with a character choosing a starter.

Moreover, I'd hate to sound snarky, but... Dagzar? The journey is the plot of a journey fic. You can't really have the character go out on a massive journey away from home and not have a plot to go along with it. I mean, if your character manages to reach an epiphany by sitting around and doing nothing but talking on a couch with a bunch of other characters, then okay, maybe you don't have a plot. But if you have your character go out on a quest away from home that drives their character development and gives them a sense of purpose, then you have a plot, and you're writing based on it, even if you're not thinking, "Oh hey! I'm writing based on my plot!" Even Mentor has a plot, and whether you're conscious of it or not, your characters' actions and therefore development are revolving around it. How can I say that? Because your characters aren't sitting on a couch reenacting Waiting for Godot. (And some critics even say Waiting for Godot has a plot, so maybe that's not a great analogy.)

Yeah, I get what you're saying. Maybe I shouldn't have used the word plot. I tend to think of character-driven and plot-driven stories as different creatures, and even if a story is character-driven, they do, of course, have plots.

Sorry. <_<

@Jax - I didn't really mean that a fic being abandoned meant that its author didn't plan it out. Hell, I once wrote a fic that I stopped due to lack of interest too. I guess that other reason slipped my mind. Sorry, I made you go all wall-of-text on me.

And yes, I know that starting with the Trainer getting his first Pokemon isn't really required if the author wants to do something different. It's their fic, not mine and I'm not the boss of them. I was just saying that, in my OPINION, that I tend to like stories that start from the very beginning (that being the Trainer getting his fist Pokemon) without giving too much away. It's just MY preference. And I didn't say that it meant the author didn't plan (at least, I do recall). If an author did that, then it means that the author either wrote a backstory that's to be later revealed or something else.

As for nothing happening until the first Gym, this can be solved with extra stories before the Gym like more captures, character development or even character introductions. Hell, they can even debut the Gym Leader(s) before the Trainer makes it to their Gym. Of course, the stories have hold the reader's interest.

Look, I'm sorry if I offended you or made you mad in anyway. I don't really think that my preferences are facts or rules that others should abide by.

I really need to work on my wording.

matt0044 said:

I really need to work on my wording.

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Um... yeah, probably. To help you out, the logic that I'm getting from your posts here.

@Jax - I didn't really mean that a fic being abandoned meant that its author didn't plan it out.

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matt0044 said:

Anyways, I hate it when stories stop part way through because the author didn't work the story out prior to writing. Especially when it was good so far.

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matt0044 said:

That another thing that I hate: when writers go all gung-ho on starting a series that haven't thought out yet, resulting in major disappointments.

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matt0044 said:

Well, it's not always like that. I think the reason for that is because the authors were starting the fic without any proper planning and they needed a good beginning to start them off. I know that from experience.

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Just posting those here to show you where I got that idea.

As I've mentioned in an earlier post as well, there's a variety of reasons why authors abandon fics, and most of them center around the idea that they do plan things out but realize that it's not something they're interested in writing or that people aren't particularly fond of what they're working on. In fact, I have to say I've never actually seen an author abandon a fic completely because they didn't plan things out all the way. So, yeah, I'm still not sure where you're getting the part that anyone abandons fic because they don't plan things out, let alone that this is the primary reason why badfic exists.

Even then, there's no proper way to tell one of the pantsers (as MW put it) from one of the planners unless the writer in question isn't particularly great at the whole writing business. So, you can't really say that a story's faults are for certain because the author didn't think things through and not just because the author him/herself isn't skilled enough to pull it off or just because the idea itself wouldn't work no matter how much planning you put into it. (There is such a thing as an idea that just won't fit a story.)

It's their fic, not mine and I'm not the boss of them. I was just saying that, in my OPINION, that I tend to like stories that start from the very beginning (that being the Trainer getting his fist Pokemon) without giving too much away. It's just MY preference.

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matt0044 said:

Plus, I do think that it's important to start a journey fic with the Main character(s) getting their first Pokemon since it's better to have an origin from the get-go.

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The second quote is stated as fact, not as a matter of opinion. You're saying that it's important for a writer to start there, which means that you're saying that, in general, this is a convention that should be followed. I came to this conclusion because you're saying it in response to someone else who told you that it really doesn't matter how a story begins. Moreover, you don't mention what about it makes it important to you, and you follow through by saying that a beginning that includes the starter tradition has to grab our attention, not just yours.

And I didn't say that it meant the author didn't plan (at least, I do recall).

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This I do admit was a mis-read on my part, although I'm still uncomfortable with the implications I've mentioned earlier -- the ones where fics fall flat for whatever reason because planning hadn't been done. (Not everyone works that way, as MW had mentioned.)

As for nothing happening until the first Gym, this can be solved with extra stories before the Gym like more captures, character development or even character introductions.

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But if they're not related to the plot you had at the lab, then everything between where the story begins and where the plot picks back up feels like unnecessary filler. After all, if you have one chapter in which Team Rocket decides to raid a laboratory and then three chapters of people not doing anything to advance that plot, it just feels like that plot thread temporarily got abandoned -- or worse, like the fic has very little focus. If you start a plot as major as having the evil team show up and say hello, then everything that follows after that should be related because that's what the readers would expect, especially from your beginning chapters. Yes, this is a general statement because it's true. If you start off with the character's potential starter being stolen, most likely, your characters are going to continue thinking about that. Would they continue onward on a normal journey like nothing ever happened, or would they actively chase down the culprits and pretty much blow off the new captures or character development?

Ultimatum is actually the only fic where I've seen this kind of thing happen and pulled off. The main character's journey starts off normally, but as soon as he hits the first route out of town, he witnesses Team Rocket stealing a Pokémon. Does he proceed on a badge quest? Not immediately, no. What does he do instead? Break into a Team Rocket base. The plot takes off from there.

In other words, if you're going to have plot-like things happen in the first chapter, you'd better be prepared to follow that instead of the generic new trainer skeleton. However, not every story is about that kind of quest, and sometimes, the character's actual quest should begin after he earns his third badge. If that's the case, then no, you can't connect the starter scene with anything after the third badge if you have plot happen at Point A and then nothing related to that plot until Point B. In other words, plots need to have a sense of coherency. You can't just throw in random other plots if something major happens between Point A and Point B. There needs to be something to connect Point A and Point B, or it'll feel like everything from Point A to Point B is just tacked on as an afterthought.

Look, I'm sorry if I offended you or made you mad in anyway.

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Oh, you've never seen me offended or angry. If you'd really like to know, this was my actual mood at the time of writing the original post:

Okay, I admit that my previous statement came off as if I was being factual than saying them as opinions. I'm truly sorry! I take it all back! I thought I was stating my opinions as, well, opinions. I didn't realize that my wording was different than what I was going for.

Look, I never meant to upset anyone at all. I just wanted to say what I personally think is right or wrong. I don't really have a good way with words like other people here so I slip up time and again.

I can understand how some authors make up stuff as they go along with their fanfics or other kinds of stories and manage to entertain their readers. Akira Toriyama, creator of Dragon Ball (Z), did this often from what I've seen and read and I still like his work (despite some flaws here and there). Hell, many cartoons do this yet still entertain me (the good ones, that is). To me, however, stories impress me the most when they're planned out and show that they aren't making stuff up as they go along.

So, as if it's not clear enough, I apologize wholeheartedly for my previous statements, Jax. I'm willing to learn from my mistakes and make up for them in the future.

matt0044 said:

Look, I never meant to upset anyone at all.

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Sometimes, maybe I should learn to word things properly as well. You didn't make me upset at all. I was just incredibly confused, so my response was to lay down my logic to see where yours matched up. Hence whipping out the lolwut image.

So, yeah, don't worry about it.

On Fanfiction, there's a trend in the Cartoon X-Overs section to adapt a movie or any kind of story and use characters from different animated shows to. This is called a fanmake and my Pokemon journey fics in the past were fanmakes as well. But let's not get into the latter.

Of course, these fanmakes tend to have common elements from one another and needless to say, they bother me. Let me name a few:

1. The narration comes off as more of a screenplay than a novelization. It describes camera panning, effects and the main character's POV (which should never ever mix with a third person narration). Hell, it seems like a hybrid of the two styles. This bothers me a lot as I prefer novel-style and I find it interesting how you can adapt a movie or TV show's into your own novelized version.

2. There are musical number in fic without music to hear. This is a big problem for me since in literature, the musical numbers seem to be forced in.

3. Most fanmakes are copied from the source material down to dialogue especially when the author is incredibly lazy. I don't know about you but I do expect some variation in an adaptation or a fan remake, you know?

Astinus said:

Which is another thing I hate seeing: forced back story or *begin flashback*

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Oh god, this. I just read Ghost Story, which is a published novel. It was absolutely completely, chock full of flashbacks, but they were always led into in a completely natural way that kept the flow intact.

What I hate even more though?

*begin flashback-within-the-flashback*

I've seen it multiple times, and once I even saw.

*begin flashback-flashback-flashback*

This forum needs an emoticon for primal rage.

Beyond that, I really despise stories that ignore basic biology... Yeah, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

In Naruto fanfiction, Naruto and Hinata romance. Not because I hate that pairing, because really, the romance path people take is not my primary reason for reading any story. No, the reason I hate it is because it's usually handled with all the skill and subtlety of a brick thrown at the window, even if they are otherwise excellent writers.

I also hate haremfics of any kind, in any genre.

...that's about it, actually.

Well, this is probably a little narrow, but I dislike most Ferrishweelshipping fics. They all portray N as Prince Sexy and ignore oh I don't know, most of his canon personality. They often tend to portray Hilda as a self-insert, too.

When people have horrible grammar in their stories >_<

OnyxDemon said:

When people have horrible grammar in their stories >_<

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You do realize that it's rather ironic that you say this in a sentence that's not properly punctuated, right?

Sorry. Had to say it. I mean, it's totally understandable (given the road and pothole analogy that I mentioned in another post), but for me, grammar isn't so much a trigger as it is the attitude about it. If an author says that grammar isn't necessary ("BECAUSE IT'S FANFICTION SO IM DOIN THIS AS A HOBBIE" or "OMG I DIDNT REALIZE THIS WAS ENGLISH CLASS" or "it's for ~artistic purposes~"), then yes, I'll judge you pretty harshly. However, if English isn't your first language or if you genuinely didn't know that a comma can't be used to do that (or insert your favorite trick grammatical rule here), then I'm a bit more forgiving so long as you're willing to learn how things in this language actually work. Sometimes, you might have an awesome story from a truly creative writer who just doesn't know any better, so it's not entirely fair to judge them right off the bat until you know what kind of author's at the keyboard.