[Politics] Does This Surprise You?

The rules for this and any other discussion, as I, Kairi wrote them:

- I will not tolerate any more insults, even if they seems harmless. You can hurt people's feelings very easily.

- When you are debating, you respect every person, if you agree with them or not.

- If you feel need to correct someone, do it in a nice, polite, clean fashion. This means no cracks about their age, intelligence, or any other discriminatory factor. Period.

- No swearing. You may think kids won't be interested in this topic, but maybe they will be. This board was made for all ages, there are plenty of other boards out there where you can swear. This one stays clean. If you need to swear, completely censor it in the form of **** or $#@$

I will be keeping tabs on this and this topic be closed if any of the above rules are broken by anyone. Don't ruin it for everyone please.


http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/11/international/11OPIN.html?pagewanted=1&fta=y



Looking at that, I find it quite startling at the lack in favourable perceptions of the United States in countries which are significant world powers, and aren't necessarily those who many would consider a terrorist zone.

Why do you think so many people have unfavourable perceptions of the United States now? After 9/11, the US had the support of well over 95% of the world, yet now those days seem long distant. Whose fault is this, and what catalysts made people come to this conclusion? The apparent arrogance of the US President? Support of Israel? Ignorance of the United Nations? Unjustified military action? Killing more innocent people in Afghanistan/Iraq than those who died in 9/11? War for Oil? No WMD found? Alienting Patriotism? I'm not saying any of those are true; just giving you guys some ideas you can stir up and post about.

Certainly, after reading many political posts on this site, there are certainly quite a few people who believe that the US hasn't done anything which would make them target for attack or unfavourable opinions. Quite obviously that is not the case.

And for the record, if anyone posts in this topic who does not like the US (particularly it's foreign policies, of course) they are not terrorists, al-Qu'ida sympathisers or any other derogatory term. These are all opinions we may or may not share. If I can say one thing; It's not a case of being either "Good or Bad," much unlike the US President thinks of this issue.

Thoughts? Feel free to post your thoughts, pro-or-anti American. All the better for debating.

Ok if some one starts a thread about Politics always gets flamed.
OK the The New York Times dont like Bush so there polls are are not going to be for Bush. We didnt go over there for oil, if we wanted the oil we would have got it 12 years ago. In war there will be ones that die, there will never be a war with out death. Iraq is lucky we didnt turn then into a parking lot. Well about the WMD what about the moble cem labs. Bush went to the UN for 6 months, thay said no, now thay want a part of it, so thay can get the oil for them self. Im 100% pro-America.

I'll be monitoring this heavily, it's not a bad topic it's just some people here can't handle it.

Other than that I have nothing to add.

Governments are created to provide a country's citizens with security and order. If the possibility of future attacks on the United States of America exists, it must be exterminated before it becomes a major threat. We do not need millions to die before we act as Europe did in the World Wars.

Quite frankly, as long as Bush is doing his job as president, I do not care what people think of him. Thank goodness he is not Clinton. Then again, he is not Regan either but at least he has a good heart and does what is best for the future security and stability of the United States of America. I am saddened that people are dying in Iraq but as long as evil exists in our world, people will die.

I normally stay out of political topics, so I'll just post my opinion then leave....

Anyways... I'm just scraping from facts I already know since I hardly a clue on what's going on...

I'm sort of not surprised.... America just seems to be too 'boastful' in my opinion (as if teh statement makes sense either)...

I'm not all that thrilled about teh whole war thing. >_< I had a feeling we were gonna go to war when Bush was elected. I'm not a very big Bush fan as you can probally tell. Maybe it was teh way I was raised, I dunno...

I guess one does need to stand up for their country when an important building is destroyed and lives are lost. But couldn't they be more civil? Like talk things out? Or maybe I'm just too peace loving?

I am saddened that people are dying in Iraq but as long as evil exists in our world, people will die.

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I sort of disagree on that.... I don't believe any one is truly 'evil' as you say, they just make teh wrong choices sometimes (or all of teh time.).
Or maybe everyone is abit evil? I mean, we all do have a dark side... Even teh most innocent of children do... Does that mean all of humanity is doomed?

I'm sorry if I got a bit off topic, and that nothing more likely than not didn't make any sense... I told you I wasn't good with politics... It's just my opinion.

*scurries off*

The only thing I fear about the war is diseases or nuclear weapons.

I normally stay out of political topics, so I'll just post my opinion then leave....

Anyways... I'm just scraping from facts I already know since I hardly a clue on what's going on...

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Then you shouldn't take a side until you are well educated on the subject.

it's still rather hard to believe one fact... if someone can clearly explain this to me, then i'll shut up and wear a banner saying "i love bush"

Saddam's government is supported by the US (approx) 12 years ago... US supplied iraq with weapons and stuff. So why did the US support Saddam in the first place if he's such a monster? So are they basically saying... "it took us 12 years to realize that Saddam is actually evil" They pushed Saddam up there, and now they're the one who pulled Saddam down from up there... huh?

EDIT NOTE: i briefly checked over Saddam's political beliefs... it never changed for 12 years... so whatever he believed in 12 years ago, it's the same as now. So don't say "well perhaps Saddam's beliefs changed over the years". When i skimmed over the page, saddam's beliefs didn't change over the 12 years.

Well, what do you know, It's me, in this thread. Don't worry, I won't snap at anyone this time.. I hope!
Just a little question first..
Topic: [Politics]Does This Surprise You?
Is the "Does this surprise you" part supposed to mean that we shouldn't be surprised that a political subject was started by StarCalibur? Or the statistics in that graph...?

Shining Arcanine said:

I am saddened that people are dying in Iraq but as long as evil exists in our world, people will die.

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Evil. Does it really exist? No. Unless you have a different defiintion of evil, theres no such thing as Evil in our world. Most people classify "Bad" people as evil. Now put yourself in their position. This is an important lesson in life. People may seem evil, but from their point of view, what their doing is good. Take Hitler for example. Titled as "The most evil person ever lived". He had a horrible childhood. His country was devided into 2 groups. The Rich and the Poor. As I child, he was taught that the problem for the poverty in his country(Germany), was the Jewish people. They came to their county, took their jobs, their homes, their money, and their government. He gained some political power as he grew older, gaining the support of many Germans. Once he had the power, he "Eliminated" all the Jews he could, to "Solve the problem". Now to him, he was fixing a problem... To the rest of the world, it was pure, selfish "Evil".. although this scenario could be argued... Because in the later years of his life, he took advantage of the power he had. Killed his wifes, innocent people 'n all..

Ok..About the Unpopularity of America. I belive there is no 100% reson for this. In polls, people take their own oppinions. Whether it's from the war, or terrible Governing or anything else, they coud only vote for the negaive side towards America.

Personnaly, I think U.S.A is a great country.. Nearly everything about it is good. It's just the government I hate. I hate! Thats the same with so many other countries and it's people. The American Government isn't their favourite amongst others.

Another thing, the majority of Iraq was glad about the war to eliminate Sadam. The reason some Iraqies supported Iraq, was because he led the nation to good(Although, not it's peole). Saddam was powerful, he made good decisions in leading his country. Although he took advantage of his power(Just like Hitler), and he wasn't so great with his people. He killed them just for having an oppinion that he didn't like. Thats why it was good for Iraq to eliminate him.
Iraq was accused for having Weapons of Mass Destruction, proven wrong later on, and the U.S.A appologising, Iraq shouldn't fear Americans. There actually on their good side, belive it or not(Despite the Oil Part).
No evidence of Saddam's elimination yet. Plenty believe he's still alive.

I think that's all I'l say for now. I'l wait for something to debate about later :)

Gr8Person62 said:

Evil. Does it really exist? No. Unless you have a different defiintion of evil, theres no such thing as Evil in our world. Most people classify "Bad" people as evil. Now put yourself in their position. This is an important lesson in life. People may seem evil, but from their point of view, what their doing is good. Take Hitler for example. Titled as "The most evil person ever lived". He had a horrible childhood. His country was devided into 2 groups. The Rich and the Poor. As I child, he was taught that the problem for the poverty in his country(Germany), was the Jewish people. They came to their county, took their jobs, their homes, their money, and their government. He gained some political power as he grew older, gaining the support of many Germans. Once he had the power, he "Eliminated" all the Jews he could, to "Solve the problem". Now to him, he was fixing a problem... To the rest of the world, it was pure, selfish "Evil".. although this scenario could be argued... Because in the later years of his life, he took advantage of the power he had. Killed his wifes, innocent people 'n all..

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Here's evil from dictionary.com

e?vil ( P ) Pronunciation Key (vl)
adj. e?vil?er, e?vil?est
Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant.
Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.
Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous: evil omens.
Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: an evil reputation.
Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper.

n.
The quality of being morally bad or wrong; wickedness.
That which causes harm, misfortune, or destruction: a leader's power to do both good and evil.
An evil force, power, or personification.
Something that is a cause or source of suffering, injury, or destruction: the social evils of poverty and injustice.

I sort of know what you mean, that people committed crimes because they didn't know better, right? Or were you trying to point out that "no one ever plans for this world to be a nightmare?" That doesn't mean there's no such thing as evil. As long as there is the standards (laws), people can be judged based on them whether they are right or wrong.

There will always be something wrong with the world.I believe that you can never have a perfect world.

22sa said:

Here's evil from dictionary.com

e?vil ( P ) Pronunciation Key (vl)
adj. e?vil?er, e?vil?est
Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant.
Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.
Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous: evil omens.
Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: an evil reputation.
Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper.

n.
The quality of being morally bad or wrong; wickedness.
That which causes harm, misfortune, or destruction: a leader's power to do both good and evil.
An evil force, power, or personification.
Something that is a cause or source of suffering, injury, or destruction: the social evils of poverty and injustice.

I sort of know what you mean, that people committed crimes because they didn't know better, right? Or were you trying to point out that "no one ever plans for this world to be a nightmare?" That doesn't mean there's no such thing as evil. As long as there is the standards (laws), people can be judged based on them whether they are right or wrong.

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No, it's not that. I said, from their point of view, no matter how bad what they're doing may seem, to them, what they're doing is good. You don't just go around killing people for no reason (Unless you have brain damadge), everyone has an excuse. Most of the time revenge.

definition of an evil person in terms of the world's beliefs:

an evil person: someone who has the opposite beliefs of you

but as a christian myself of course i'm against that... let's go back to Hitler for example. He suffered greatly during his childhood, how the Jewish took the jobs and money to make the germans suffer. But does this mean we just revenge for whatever someone else has done to us that's mean?

So someone thrashed you at school today, you kill them in return to "solve the problem". If they are dead, they can't thrash you anymore! Now isn't that such a good way to "solve the problem..."

Arcanine said:

Ok if some one starts a thread about Politics always gets flamed.
OK the The New York Times dont like Bush so there polls are are not going to be for Bush. We didnt go over there for oil, if we wanted the oil we would have got it 12 years ago. In war there will be ones that die, there will never be a war with out death. Iraq is lucky we didnt turn then into a parking lot. Well about the WMD what about the moble cem labs. Bush went to the UN for 6 months, thay said no, now thay want a part of it, so thay can get the oil for them self. Im 100% pro-America.

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Haha, how old are you? As Shining Arcanine was mentioning, I think people like you need to educate yourself a little.

Mobile Chem Labs are WMD? rofl, good joke.

DS / StarCaliber said:

Haha, how old are you? As Shining Arcanine was mentioning, I think people like you need to educate yourself a little.

Mobile Chem Labs are WMD? rofl, good joke.

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I haven't said this in a long time on PC but shut up DS / StarCaliber.
Like I said the war is not over thay can not be looking for WMD and fight a war at the same time. And does any one know how big Iraq is? It is as big as California, and thay can be under ground in schools anywhere. And mabe you should educate yourself a little before talking about the war over there.

Watch it you two, respect one another.

If you don't think Arcanine has enough experience, just say something to the effect of "Well, I think there's more to it. You may need to study some more on this topic".

It's nice, it's polite, it gets the point across. No seemingly harmless cracks about age or whatever.


Arcanine, be polite. Even if he was rude, don't tell him to shut up. Politely ask him to be more respectful, if you push him he may just push back.

OK the The New York Times dont like Bush so there polls are are not going to be for Bush

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When I used to argue with Shining Arcanine about 9/10 months ago, he always insisted that the New York Times was a very good, unbiased source of information. I would claim it was biased towards the United States, simply because it is an American publication. However, what me and Shining Arcanine do agree on is that the NYTimes is not biased against President Bush.

Besides, why is it biased anyway? Because it has published an article in which criticism of the President could be found? How often do you read the New York Times? Enough to know it's biased? And since you can't read, the poll displayed there was compiled by the PEW Global Attitudes Project; not the NY Times.

We didnt go over there for oil, if we wanted the oil we would have got it 12 years ago.

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I agree with you.

Iraq is lucky we didnt turn then into a parking lot.

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Okay, so maybe I'm interpreting this incorrectly, so you can help me out. Why should Iraq be, "lucky that we didn't turn them into a parking lot?" Iraq itself is not really a hostile country; it just had a hostile regime. There are millions of innocent people in there that would never want any harm done to the US at all, and just want a peaceful, sufficient living. So why did you mention the, "parking lot" theory? Why should perfectly innocent people be, "lucky" that a outside force didn't flatten their country? Because you think it would be a simple-minded, barbarically appropriate course of action? And why would it need to be turned into a parking lot anyway? Not to mention what right the Coalition would have.

Like I said the war is not over thay can not be looking for WMD and fight a war at the same time. And does any one know how big Iraq is? It is as big as California, and thay can be under ground in schools anywhere.

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Erm, yes they can be looking for them at the same time, and since you've not checked the news recently, I can confirm to you that this search has been going on for quite some time. It's not like the entire Coaliton force is minuscule and inadequately equiped to do the job. I just find it quite funny how US Secretary of State, Colin Powell, went the United Nations with "evidence" that Iraq had and was concealing WMD from the rest of the world. Part of the package he presented to the United Nations was satellite images of weapons (and proposed WMD) being transported, hidden and under construction. If you don't believe me, you can read widely available transcripts and view these images on the internet; specifically www.whitehouse.gov.

I guess the United Nations Weapons Inspections Team didn't have the time to find any WMD either, eh?

Well im not going to reply to any of that, if I did then there will be a flame war and everything. And dont you dare say something like: you wont reply because you dont know what you are talking about.

Arcanine said:

Well im not going to reply to any of that, if I did then there will be a flame war and everything. And dont you dare say something like: you wont reply because you dont know what you are talking about.

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Hahaha. Okay, so debating = flaming by your logic. Like I believe that.

Let me tell you something, right. Quite a few months ago, me and Shining Arcanine (someone who I can argue with because he knows what he's talking about) would debate politics for hours. He finally convinced me I should be accepting of military action on the grounds that we both agreed Saddam was an evil guy, and there was seemingly enough evidence for the case of WMD being found there.

And why have I turned? Because I feel like I've been lied to. Bush, Blair and their cronies had my trust and they lied; thus blowing it. Why should I believe them again? They had all this "evidence" of WMD, so where are they, 140 days on?

There is a high-profile legal case going on in the UK right now named, "The Hutton Inquiry" between the BBC and the Government. The trail has revealed eMails and other such information which encouraged those who were constructing a dossier which was for the use of persuading the British people for the need for war to "sex-up" the information. As a result, the Government exaggerated the risk of terrorism and WMD; and the result is clear to see. If Iraq was so dangerous, why the need to exaggerate?

They ******** me, and I return the favour.

DS/Star Caliber, don't swear. I don't care the reason, just don't do it. If feel 100% you need to, fully censor it.

It's a shame this thread got locked, I wasn't the one who locked it.

You need to learn to respect each other, and REPLY not RETALIATE with courteous responses.

You're still pushing each other and countering, you can't do that in debates. Is it really so hard to resist changing a few words so your comments come out nice and not as insults? DS/ StarCaliber, let's take your "Hahaha. Okay, so debating = flaming by your logic. Like I believe that."

Could you not have said:

"I don't believe debating is flaming."?

You should know that if you don't show some maturity, you're going to hurt someone or offend them. I knew this topic could have gone downhill, but it went downhill way too fast. Much more of this and I'll ban political discussion on Other Chat.

Although he was making remarks, I don't feel this warranted closing this topic so soon. His swear could and is being edited out, and with some redirection it could have survived. You closed it however, and if I open it you have the higher authority and could lock it up again.