Sexism against males - why does no one acknowledge this?

surprisingly andy many mature men between the ages of 18 to 80 desire and love children
many of them happen to have souls as well
though that's not something you could ever comprehend and i still love you regardless

Harlequin said:

this is my favourite thread to ever exist

the only two areas where men face issues which could even be considered as sexist are parental custody lawsuits & female-on-male or man-on-man rape cases

and in both cases, the perceived sexism is a result of the society that men have built for themselves, a double edged sword
this 'sexism' is simply the patriarchy working in a way that does not suit men

for centuries, possibly even millennia, men have deemed that women are only fit for the kitchen and raising kids
and now, in modern times, this is working against them in parental custody lawsuits - more or less the only area in law which is not heavily favoured towards men
because women have for so long been typecast as the only being fit for raising kids, naturally there is going to be a bias towards them, the loving mother who gave up her life to raise the father's child

and for rape
well
blame the patriarchy again
female-on-male rape cases are treated as a joke because, thanks to age old thinking that man > women, a woman cannot be superior to a man
she cannot be physically stronger
as emotionally empty as a male rapist
it cannot be possible for a woman to take advantage of a man the same way that men have since the dawn of civilisation

tl;dr - sexism against men is not an issue
the patriarchy is

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>women are mistreated
>"It's man's fault!"
>men are mistreated
>"It's man's fault!"


Sorry, that's a load of feminist drivel.

So because some people who happened to be men imposed discriminatory views and roles on the genders in the past, all forms of sexism towards their gender is somehow not an issue? Since when did being a man make me accountable for the actions of other men to the point where injustices against me are somehow my own fault? It's this mentality of lumping us up the same way people lump up women as only homemakers that is wrong.

Whoever built this society is irrelevant. The reality of the situation is that now, this "patriarchy" or whatever you want to call it has brought up the general populace with skewed perceptions of BOTH genders. This isn't a matter of talking about who has it worse, women probably do but who cares? Why is it a contest to see who deserves attention more?

Sexism in all its forms needs to stop, and the moment we stop fighting for equality with relation to the other gender rather than true fairness for all is when things will start changing. This "check your privilege" mentality is what's keeping men and women (and differing races and backgrounds for that matter) perpetually at odds with each other.

oh honey

feminist drivel

that exact phrase is why feminism exists

and if i gave off the impression that the issues that i outlined were not an issue then that is my fault
but i think that more attention should be paid to the far larger and much more wide reaching problems facing women today than 'sexism against men'

^ that's the very thing though, that we should think that we should pay more attention to one than the other. it's not a zero sum game, my win is not your loss. but as long as people have that attitude, sexual inequality will continue to be seen as one side against the other.

you people are so quick to throw around the idea of 'we need to be equal with everything!!!!' when it's men who are threatened

Harlequin said:

oh honey

feminist drivel

that exact phrase is why feminism exists

and if i gave off the impression that the issues that i outlined were not an issue then that is my fault
but i think that more attention should be paid to the far larger and much more wide reaching problems facing women today than 'sexism against men'

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He is not incorrect, in politics it's called "pointing the finger." It is a method of avoiding the responsibility of your own mistakes by blaming others for them. Not all cultures are male dominant, and women are not weak, on the contrary, most of us can take most of the men in a fair fight with little struggle. What happened in so many cultures that males dominate? Religion. Yeah, sounds a bit like pointing the finger as well, only, for religion to have any power everyone, male and female, has to give it that power. The fear of "going to ...." wherever the tormented go is what allowed men the power in these religions. Women gave up their power for that false promise of "glory after death."

So who is to blame? Well yeah, men came up with the notions, but women bought into those same notions to allow men to take the power from them, it was a willing participation. Even today a lot of women, take Sarah Palin for a great example, will give the men in their lives all the control, willingly. Her husband is a pansy, and any woman with a backbone could easily stand up to him, but she doesn't, and she does have a backbone, just not enough smarts to use it. Of course he's not blameless, but who wouldn't take advantage of dominating another person in any contract?

My mother was the same, thankfully my father was not. My mother believed, as the religion told her, that men should always be in charge. My father thought females who wanted to should take the reigns and be in charge so men like him, who didn't want the responsibility of being in charge, didn't have to.

But when you look at cultures where men and women are equal and you see one thing missing, they don't have a lot of religiosity. So if you are going to blame something, at least blame that which is truly responsible for it, fear.

Harlequin said:

you people are so quick to throw around the idea of 'we need to be equal with everything!!!!' when it's men who are threatened

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That's exactly the point of view that I'm talking about, that we see more in our divisions than what we have in common. Since when have we ever talked about solidarity and unity instead of who's being threatened and who's to blame? It upsets me that we're more concerned with what we have to lose personally instead of looking at what we have to gain as a society. It's as if we're limited to looking at the problem in the negative. I don't know who's perpetuating this culture, but it is not how you create a harmonious society.

Harlequin said:

oh honey

feminist drivel

that exact phrase is why feminism exists

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My problem is playing the blame game, Harlequin. Women need their rights to be fought for, believe me I realise that, but not because men are the root of all these issues or that women are the only ones deserving of rights. Human beings need to be fair to human beings. By putting men as the standard for rights, you've already accepted the notion of superiority/inferiority in your argument. Do you get what I'm saying?

I'm looking for something more inclusive because this mentality is, like it or not, the crux of feminism and is ultimately a poor mindset for the cause.

and if i gave off the impression that the issues that i outlined were not an issue then that is my fault
but i think that more attention should be paid to the far larger and much more wide reaching problems facing women today than 'sexism against men'

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But that's what I was getting at...why are we comparing the value of problems here? How does that help resolve an issue? Shouldn't people focus on being better people TO people, and not just women?

Harlequin said:

you people are so quick to throw around the idea of 'we need to be equal with everything!!!!' when it's men who are threatened

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Maybe some men who want to perpetuate the status quo feel threatened, but I myself am not "scared" of rocking the boat. Things need to be shaken up, trust me I'm with you there. I just think feminism is a result of tunnel vision and can't accept the belief that "it's all man's fault and so your problems aren't really problems".

It's counterproductive, creates more of a schism between men and women, and quite frankly, is condescending. I'm sure you didn't intend it to be, but that's what the end result is.

We need a massive paradigm shift in how human beings see one another. Women's rights wouldn't be an issue if we could attain that.

Yunno, this is why I miss communism. At least people had ideals worth fighting for. And the name of the game was solidarity, not finger-pointing.

BlahISuck said:

Yunno, this is why I miss communism. At least people had ideals worth fighting for. And the name of the game was solidarity, not finger-pointing.

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It's too bad any system other than democracy is considered taboo. People cringe at the mention of it like it's a bad word when all it is is an idea.

If nothing else, communism brought on the idea of society truly being one unit, something we could definitely learn from considering the widespread fragmentation we deal with both on a national and global level. It's sad that we define the value of a human's life based on which piece of land they're from, something the majority of us have no control over anyway.

Sorry pretty big tangent from the topic of this thread haha. But in a way, the ideal of a unified globe would rectify the problem of sexism pretty easily.

Oh, lol I'm not even getting on that level. I was thinking how communism was like "here you go take all the rights you've been denied for millennia. Have fun!" As well the attitude of solidarity - except against the bourgeoisie, who were the enemy. But men aren't the enemy in feminism, are they?

BlahISuck said:

Oh, lol I'm not even getting on that level. I was thinking how communism was like "here you go take all the rights you've been denied for millennia. Have fun!" As well the attitude of solidarity - except against the bourgeoisie, who were the enemy.

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Oh oops. Well I'm with you on that one!

But men aren't the enemy in feminism, are they?

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I never used to think so, can't speak to "true" feminists really, but the "bandwagoners" (teeny boppers on Tumblr who argue vaguely about rights without any real plan and say "check your privilege" all the time without even knowing what they're saying) certainly seem to come off that way.

I get the initial intentions behind its inception and don't think the concept was to ever try to demonise men, but whatever happened between then and now has resulted in an ideologically convoluted movement that is trying to wrest "power" from "Man" as if we're locked in some eternal struggle with the other gender being some sort of collective oppressor.

Any feminists reading that know better, please excuse my ignorance (not sarcastic) and explain the true essence of the movement and why "equality for all" is not a better cause to strive for. I honestly would like to know.

LurifLUX said:

Woaw, woaw, woaw, WOAW.
You talk about sexism and then you bash an entire country? Talk about double standards here. I can confirm something and that is your view of Sweden is so scewed and wrong I can't even begin to correct it. You've got to be trolling or something.
Is this the "raging racism is okay, but smidgeons of sexism isn't" thread?

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I don't think he was trying to bash Sweden's people as a whole - just the people in charge (and believe me, people in charge almost never represent the common people). A lot of people feel that way about the misogyny in Saudi Arabia, but that doesn't mean they hate Saudis as a people. (I myself am a very strong critic of Turkey's government and politics, but I don't hate the people and I'm friends with a number of Turks.)

I do hate the idea that men cannot go near children because "they'll molest them", which is why people are suspect of men who work with children. People were hesitant to hire me as a babysitter because I was a guy. But I proved myself worthy. (I only stopped doing it because of one little brat who I couldn't stop their bad behaviour.)

Harlequin said:

the only two areas where men face issues which could even be considered as sexist are parental custody lawsuits & female-on-male or man-on-man rape cases

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Correction: the only two areas you are aware of that men face that could be considered sexist are those two topics. Making such a broad, absolute statement as you just made is overreaching. Even if you were an expert on the topic of men's issues and studied and discussed it for years, there could well be issues some men face that would be outside of your knowledge. And discounting the validity of every other possible issue other than the ones you listed without so much as mentioning why you discount them does nothing to advance the discussion and merely unfairly trivializes men's issues.

and in both cases, the perceived sexism is a result of the society that men have built for themselves, a double edged sword
this 'sexism' is simply the patriarchy working in a way that does not suit men

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Are you somehow suggesting that every single male in existence is part of some vast conspiracy to keep men in power at the expense of women? I guess I didn't get that memo. I certainly didn't "build" anything that is designed to treat people unfairly. Or are you saying that attitudes that have been around for thousands of years, since hunter-gatherer societies, attitudes that I myself argue against, are something that we are responsible for? That anything that happens as a result is our just rewards since we happened to be born male? Because that's even more absurd. And if you are saying we're responsible for perpetuating them, even if that is the case, it doesn't excuse the injustice being done.

for centuries, possibly even millennia, men have deemed that women are only fit for the kitchen and raising kids

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I'm not deeming that. Why are you holding me and others who take issue with the unfair treatment of men responsible for the attitudes of "society" any more than you hold yourself responsible? We're (or at least the people in the men's rights movement that I agree with) just trying to get fair treatment.

and now, in modern times, this is working against them in parental custody lawsuits - more or less the only area in law which is not heavily favoured towards men
because women have for so long been typecast as the only being fit for raising kids, naturally there is going to be a bias towards them, the loving mother who gave up her life to raise the father's child

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I'm not sure what point you're making. That we "had it coming" because of attitudes that were around before any of us were even alive? I'm sorry, but that's outrageous.

and for rape
well
blame the patriarchy again

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I think I'll blame the rapists and not the vast male conspiracy to take and maintain power that doesn't exist.

female-on-male rape cases are treated as a joke because, thanks to age old thinking that man > women, a woman cannot be superior to a man
she cannot be physically stronger
as emotionally empty as a male rapist
it cannot be possible for a woman to take advantage of a man the same way that men have since the dawn of civilisation

Click to expand...

The idea you are describing is not "the patriarchy," it is "masculinity." There is an attitude inherent in society that men must be and act "manly." This is a destructive attitude and should be argued against. There is also the (absolutely ridiculous) idea that men cannot withhold consent because "men always enjoy sex." This is downright stupid and should be labeled as such.

These attitudes perpetuate because we act in such a way that they continue to exist and be passed on to our children, not because there is a contract between all men to keep them going to "keep the women down." We fight them by treating people fairly and fighting injustice that results from treating people unfairly. This includes unfairness against men, against women, against blacks, whites, hispanics, gays, straights; anyone who is being treated unfairly based on some aspect of them that really has no bearing on the matter at hand.

And even if you believe that men, or whoever, are perpetuating these attitudes and that it's their own fault, that does not justify unfair treatment. A victim is a victim, a crime is a crime, and bad things are bad. We cannot stand by and watch with disinterest when someone experiences injustice, even if that person may have played a minor role in causing it. We would not excuse the con-artist for conning a greedy person: regardless of the victim's role in the crime, the perpetrator is still doing something immoral.

tl;dr - sexism against men is not an issue

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Your argument as to why sexism is not an issue boils down to "only a few issues are valid" with no reason why all of the rest are invalid, and "men had the rest coming." There are plenty of legitimate problems men face in today's society (for instance, unfair bias in the legal system, including but not limited to parental custody issues). If there are some issues that men's rights advocates argue about that you think are non-issues, I can address these (men's rights advocacy is very disorganized and many people have conflicting beliefs, so it's quite possible that some issues you might be thinking of are things I also consider non-issues). As for "men had it coming," however you feel about the idea of "blaming the victim," I don't think it "excuses the perpetrator."

The idea of patriarchy isn't that men are in on some conspiracy, that men are actively discriminating against women or other men who don't fit the mold (though that does happen), but that the system as a whole is biased and usually benefits men (with the noted exceptions where it benefits women). It's not saying that you created this system, just that you are inside it and most likely benefiting from it if you're a man. That's an uncomfortable place to be in. You haven't chosen to discriminate against anyone, but you still get an unfair advantage most of the time. The accusation, I think, if there is an accusation, is that you are accepting these circumstances. I don't know if it's right or wrong to expect everyone to actively fight against the unfairness, but I think a denial of the unfairness comes off as complicity to those who see a biased system.

Scarf said:

The idea of patriarchy isn't that men are in on some conspiracy, that men are actively discriminating against women or other men who don't fit the mold (though that does happen), but that the system as a whole is biased and usually benefits men (with the noted exceptions where it benefits women). It's not saying that you created this system, just that you are inside it and most likely benefiting from it if you're a man. That's an uncomfortable place to be in. You haven't chosen to discriminate against anyone, but you still get an unfair advantage most of the time. The accusation, I think, if there is an accusation, is that you are accepting these circumstances. I don't know if it's right or wrong to expect everyone to actively fight against the unfairness, but I think a denial of the unfairness comes off as complicity to those who see a biased system.

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First, more finger pointing, but also another common one. At least that's what I get from reading your post. "It's not your fault you have to do this, but you're a bad person for doing it" or better, "hate the sin and not the sinner." Again, the only reason the males have dominated this society is because the majority of the women have, and still do, allow them too.

Scarf said:

The idea of patriarchy isn't that men are in on some conspiracy, that men are actively discriminating against women or other men who don't fit the mold (though that does happen), but that the system as a whole is biased and usually benefits men (with the noted exceptions where it benefits women). It's not saying that you created this system, just that you are inside it and most likely benefiting from it if you're a man. That's an uncomfortable place to be in. You haven't chosen to discriminate against anyone, but you still get an unfair advantage most of the time. The accusation, I think, if there is an accusation, is that you are accepting these circumstances. I don't know if it's right or wrong to expect everyone to actively fight against the unfairness, but I think a denial of the unfairness comes off as complicity to those who see a biased system.

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If that's the case, it's like I said. I never signed up for this and I sure as heck don't want it. I want to be treated fairly. When I'm applying for a job, I want to be judged on my merits. When I'm fighting in court, I want arguments to be judged on their content, not on who spoke them. I don't want (and actively speak out against) unfair bias of any kind, "beneficial" or not.

I think most people can agree the end goal is to be treated fairly, and I think a lot of unnecessary (and distracting) conflict probably comes from people with different interpretations of this. I don't think it's all right to just "bring women up to the level of men;" that just means that if that battle is "won," there will still be significant unfairness toward both sexes, since that's the level men are currently on.

Also, I disagree with the idea that I see a lot (I haven't seen it here, but in case someone brings it up) that "women's problems are more significant and numerous so we should only focus on those." There are a lot of people in the world with a lot of time; surely it's possible to advocate for more than just one thing at a time. I know that I talk about lots of problems other than men's issues. Like I said, ultimately what I advocate for is egalitarianism, plain and simple.

All this aside, it doesn't excuse the attitude that men's issues aren't a problem because some men (and women) might be passively complicit in maintaining the circumstances that cause them. As I said earlier, bad things are still bad, regardless of who is responsible and who is harmed. There are still victims, people still suffer as a result, and that is a bad thing. And we should try to put a stop to bad things.

Scarf said:

The idea of patriarchy isn't that men are in on some conspiracy, that men are actively discriminating against women or other men who don't fit the mold (though that does happen), but that the system as a whole is biased and usually benefits men (with the noted exceptions where it benefits women). It's not saying that you created this system, just that you are inside it and most likely benefiting from it if you're a man. That's an uncomfortable place to be in. You haven't chosen to discriminate against anyone, but you still get an unfair advantage most of the time. The accusation, I think, if there is an accusation, is that you are accepting these circumstances. I don't know if it's right or wrong to expect everyone to actively fight against the unfairness, but I think a denial of the unfairness comes off as complicity to those who see a biased system.

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But Scarf, that viewpoint is the "check your privilege" tumblr nonsense I was referring to. Our perspective is automatically considered skewed or discounted because society wishes to offer us an advantage, regardless of whether we accept it or not?

Patriarchy is a loaded term because it suggests everything is in favour of men and no one else, which is just such a wrong perspective to have. Everyone is mistreated in different ways for different things, it doesn't matter who has it worse...how does that help solve or address anything? All it does instead is trivialise the struggles of anyone who isn't female when in reality we all deal with them.

We're not a "patriarchy", we are a broken society riddled with archaic ideas that discriminate against us all. This needs to change to make us as a society of human beings -- not "men" and "women" -- better.

KittenKoder said:

First, more finger pointing, but also another common one. At least that's what I get from reading your post. "It's not your fault you have to do this, but you're a bad person for doing it" or better, "hate the sin and not the sinner." Again, the only reason the males have dominated this society is because the majority of the women have, and still do, allow them too.

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I'm not quite sure where I was "finger pointing" if that's what you're saying. I specifically made use of language like "if there is an accusation", "I don't know if it's right or wrong", and "comes off as" since I was trying to stay relatively neutral and describe one view of things.

LoudSilence said:

But Scarf, that viewpoint is the "check your privilege" tumblr nonsense I was referring to. Our perspective is automatically considered skewed or discounted because society wishes to offer us an advantage, regardless of whether we accept it or not?

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I think what I was trying to say is that there is, within the worldview that accepts patriarchy as something that exists, an argument of complicity by inaction. A kind of state where one thinks "I don't like this system" but still plays along with it. So perhaps then one would say that a person who is complicit would have a skewed perspective, or at least a perspective in which we should note where it's coming from.

LoudSilence said:

Patriarchy is a loaded term because it suggests everything is in favour of men and no one else, which is just such a wrong perspective to have. Everyone is mistreated in different ways for different things, it doesn't matter who has it worse...how does that help solve or address anything? All it does instead is trivialise the struggles of anyone who isn't female when in reality we all deal with them.

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It may suggest that, but if you talk with people about it it's not so clearly the kind of "men are bad, they get everything" view the name suggests, if it does suggest that.

LoudSilence said:

We're not a "patriarchy", we are a broken society riddled with archaic ideas that discriminate against us all. This needs to change to make us as a society of human beings -- not "men" and "women" -- better.

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I think by definition you can't discriminate against everyone because discrimination is about taking one section of something (or one group of people) and treating them differently. Yes, everyone has problems, but not all problems are discrimination. Or rather, not all problems are systematic discrimination based on your belonging to a group.