Elite Four - A Cakewalk?

Musicality · Sep 30, 2014

It's no secret that Pokemon games are meant to appeal to kids, and the adults were never expected to jump on the wagon too, and Nintendo certainly didn't expect the game to be so popular it would span a fanbase that surpassed age borders.

The Elite Four, along with the Champion, are technically the most powerful trainers in the region, at least, until you show up. For those that have played a few Pokemon games, you probably feel that the Elite Four is a piece of cake. Or it's immensely difficult. What do you guys think? How easy is the Elite Four? Would you like to see changes implemented to allow for a real challenge of sorts, or is it fine as it is? Discuss away, guys! Please stay on topic, and have fun. :)

Hiatus · Sep 30, 2014

Difficulty of Elite Four members would vary depending on your team and how well you've built them. If your team isn't well-trained and the party members don't have access to any move that they could take good advantage of--one example would be Breloom using Spore and Focus Punch as a combination--then it's only natural of you getting a tough time. Things like this are common for younger players (not age-wise), as they're not too familiar with the system and are likely not as experienced as older ones.

If you've got a good set of crew, however--a team consisting of Pokémon with good move-sets and ability to cover and keep each other in-check well enough--it shouldn't be much of an issue in any way.

Would I like to see Elite Four become more difficult? Not really. Well, maybe not initially. Say, when you first face off against them before defeating Champion, they would be at their average difficulty level. Once you do take down the Champion, though, and make it into post-game, then they would become more tough.

Musicality · Oct 1, 2014

Archer99 said:
It depends from the game, And your age of course
When i played a pokemon game for my first time, I had a hard time with the E4 (And it's one of the easiest...) The hoenn league, Then i started to know the types and that maked it easier for me
The E4 needs to be harder??. It depends, If you're like me and you don't like training you're going to be like 5 levels under the champion and it's a nice thing because on other way the challenge is gone, And i don't use revives on battle, Or potions. Just full heals
My hardest time with the E4 was on LF, I was too underleveled, I catched the 3 birds to stand a a chance against Blue

Wow. That must've been quite a battle. I would actually like if if they didn't allow an unlimited amount of item for the E4, maybe they would only give you 10 Hyper Potions, 5 Revives, 5 Full Heals or something of that sort every time you faced them. It would be a real challenge without items, they're usually my saving grace, and it'll be great to experience playing without using them.

Peitharchia said:
Difficulty of Elite Four members would vary depending on your team and how well you've built them. If your team isn't well-trained and the party members don't have access to any move that they could take good advantage of--one example would be Breloom using Spore and Focus Punch as a combination--then it's only natural of you getting a tough time. Things like this are common for younger players (not age-wise), as they're not too familiar with the system and are likely not as experienced as older ones.

If you've got a good set of crew, however--a team consisting of Pokémon with good move-sets and ability to cover and keep each other in-check well enough--it shouldn't be much of an issue in any way.

Would I like to see Elite Four become more difficult? Not really. Well, maybe not initially. Say, when you first face off against them before defeating Champion, they would be at their average difficulty level. Once you do take down the Champion, though, and make it into post-game, then they would become more tough.

Yeah, skill definitely comes into play here. You don't always need to run Spore and Focus Punch though, you could run Spore solely for the utility, or SubPunch, there are many different variations of the same Pokemon that you can create to fit on your team. I actually would love to see not just their levels increased, but for them to have better movesets and coverage moves on their Pokemon. For example, Alakzam carrying Focus Blast. It'll make much more of a challenge, and you won't win by pure grinding alone.

jfuze174 · Oct 1, 2014

The thing too is that there is way to many pokes now for an elite four to be hard When pokemon types were rarer to get the elites were way more elite i remember i had trouble beating lance untill i got a dewgong now who even uses a dewgong lol

PokéWreX · Oct 1, 2014

jfuze174 said:
The thing too is that there is way to many pokes now for an elite four to be hard When pokemon types were rarer to get the elites were way more elite i remember i had trouble beating lance untill i got a dewgong now who even uses a dewgong lol

Although you bring up a good point about their being many more pokemon to counter each other now, I'd like to mention Drayano's hacks along with other harder ROM hacks which don't always level up the E4 really high but give them competitive movesets and held items which can also make it really hard.

However I wouldn't really want the Elite 4 made a lot harder than they are now by default as has been mentioned the intended audience is mainly kids. I would really like it if they added in an optional difficulty setting or after the Elite 4 you could face all the gym leaders and then Elite 4 again on a harder difficulty.

Hiatus · Oct 1, 2014

jfuze174 said:
The thing too is that there is way to many pokes now for an elite four to be hard When pokemon types were rarer to get the elites were way more elite i remember i had trouble beating lance untill i got a dewgong now who even uses a dewgong lol

Yeah, I could agree with that! Not really sure if there's anything they would possibly be able to do about it aside from what they're already doing, limiting certain types of Pokémon found in wild in each region and whatnot. With their global-trading system, though, this doesn't really make much of an impact on people, aside from those who don't usually trade.

curiousnathan · Oct 1, 2014

I think ever since Sinnoh, the Elite Four were way too easy. They're supposed to be the four strongest trainers in the entire region, yet they're not much of a challenge at all. BW/B2W2 were okay, but Kalos' was pathetic. Are you serious? Four pokemon? That's what probably what I disliked about X and Y the most. That and the lack of new Pokemon.

Musicality · Oct 1, 2014

PokéWreX said:
Although you bring up a good point about their being many more pokemon to counter each other now, I'd like to mention Drayano's hacks along with other harder ROM hacks which don't always level up the E4 really high but give them competitive movesets and held items which can also make it really hard.

However I wouldn't really want the Elite 4 made a lot harder than they are now by default as has been mentioned the intended audience is mainly kids. I would really like it if they added in an optional difficulty setting or after the Elite 4 you could face all the gym leaders and then Elite 4 again on a harder difficulty.

Peitharchia said:
Yeah, I could agree with that! Not really sure if there's anything they would possibly be able to do about that aside from what they're already doing, limiting certain types of Pokémon found in wild in each region and whatnot. With their global-trading system, though, this doesn't really make much of an impact on people, aside from those who don't usually trade and whatnot.

curiousnathan said:
I think ever since Sinnoh, the Elite Four were way too easy. They're supposed to be the four strongest trainers in the entire region, yet they're not much of a challenge at all. BW/B2W2 were okay, but Kalos' was pathetic. Are you serious? Four pokemon? That's what probably what I disliked about X and Y the most. That and the lack of new Pokemon.

Yeah, it seems there's a common opinion here. Gen III had the last decently challenging E4. WreX brought up an interesting point about Drayano's hacks, I'm actually quite fond of them. He even incorporates weather teams and the like, in addition to giving each Pokemon on a viable competitive moveset. He did raise the levels a bit though, the E4 would be around 70 when you challenged them, iirc. Another issue I would like to bring up is that the E4's Pokemon seem to have zero speed EVs. If you're challenging a psychic type trainer, for example, just bringing out a Tyranitar and wrecking with Crunch would seal the game. I would actually like for the E4's Pokemon to be invested in speed, so that you don't always move first, if the other EVs are not added. It'll make for a more realistic battle where you don't outspeed every one of their Pokemon.

Pendraflare · Oct 1, 2014

Yeah, i've seen quite a few people bring this up before. Personally, the only thing I feel that kept Hoenn's Elite Four from being any crazier was the fact that they had almost no variety. Sinnoh's I found to be rather easy except for Lucian, who admittedly was far harder than the other three.

BW's I don't think were that easy, because their Pokémon were pretty strong and you didn't have as many options to combat them (especially Marshal), although Scrafty does do a good chunk against them. For Black 2 and White 2, on Normal Mode I felt their levels were a bit on the low side and their teams weren't much different at all, not to mention more options to combat them with. Challenge Mode on the other hand...Choice Scarf Chandelure, and a Metagross, anyone? And teams full of Expert Belts and other competitive boosting items? Crazy.

XY, on the other hand, i'm gonna agree with the majority here and say that they were pretty underwhelming, which feels like a dirty confession but sadly, it's true. In most of my playthroughs (read: challenges), the only member I ever really found to be a major challenge was Siebold, but admittedly he can be pretty scary.

DJTiki · Oct 2, 2014

Pendraflare said:
BW's I don't think were that easy, because their Pokémon were pretty strong and you didn't have as many options to combat them (especially Marshal), although Scrafty does do a good chunk against them. For Black 2 and White 2, on Normal Mode I felt their levels were a bit on the low side and their teams weren't much different at all, not to mention more options to combat them with. Challenge Mode on the other hand...Choice Scarf Chandelure, and a Metagross, anyone? And teams full of Expert Belts and other competitive boosting items? Crazy.

XY, on the other hand, i'm gonna agree with the majority here and say that they were pretty underwhelming, which feels like a dirty confession but sadly, it's true. In most of my playthroughs (read: challenges), the only member I ever really found to be a major challenge was Siebold, but admittedly he can be pretty scary.

I think we can all agree that BW's Elite Four were painful. Shauntal's Chandelure will always haunt my dreams, especially since it had Energy Ball, Fire Blast, AND Shadow Ball, pretty much covering all its weaknesses except Dark.

Seibold's Clawitzer. Enough said(if you didn't use Exp.All)

Cerberus87 · Oct 2, 2014

Musicality said:
Yeah, it seems there's a common opinion here. Gen III had the last decently challenging E4.

Nope.

Sidney dies to Blaziken. Actually, scrap that, you don't even need to dig that deep. Anyone who has a ****ing Mightyena can't be too hard to beat.

Phoebe is the hardest, because of Dusclops, but a Dark Pokémon should take her down with some effort.

Glacia dies to Manectric. Or, better yet, Magneton. Glalie can't do a thing to Magneton.

Drake dies to Ice Beam.

How is that hard?

Musicality said:
If you're challenging a psychic type trainer, for example, just bringing out a Tyranitar and wrecking with Crunch would seal the game. I would actually like for the E4's Pokemon to be invested in speed, so that you don't always move first, if the other EVs are not added. It'll make for a more realistic battle where you don't outspeed every one of their Pokemon.

Foe Alakazam used Focus Blast!
It's super effective!
Tyranitar fainted!

Lucian's Alakazam has Focus Blast. What do you do, pray for a miss? That's a gamble, and Pokémon is about maximizing your chances of winning, not relying on gambles.

Besides, Lucian even has Gallade to wreck Tyranitar with.

Now, my opinion on the matter. The Elite Four is an attrition race. You're not supposed to lose to the first one. If you can't overpower the first one, your team needs work. Your team should be able to easily crush the one you have the most advantage against. In the games prior to BW, the first one was always a pushover. The hardest was probably Lorelei with Lapras, but if you had an Electric Pokémon you beat 80% of her team anyways.

I like to beat the Elite Four without PP-healing items, so it becomes an interesting challenge of managing your moves while accounting for the good matchups you have. In the new games, you can beat them in any order, so it might be better to look up the E4's Pokémon and see what you'll have the most trouble with, and save it for last. I never seem to build a good team against Marshal in BW, because I don't carry Psychic Pokémon, and his Pokémon have countermeasures against Flying Pokémon. Against Flint in Platinum, you'll need a Ground Pokémon because he uses Sunny Day, so Water Pokémon are disadvantaged.

Shrew · Oct 2, 2014

In my first game, Diamond, I found the champion so difficult that I had to resort to destiny bond+full revives 3-4 times. In every other game, the only real challenge I've had was trying to keep all my pokemon from fainting. I do believe some changes should be made in the Elite 4, to make it more challenging:

1. Similar to the Battle Tower, you should not be allowed to restart after losing a battle. The point of the Elite 4 is that you have to beat all 5 in a row, not undo your mistakes.
2. In Challenge Mode (which should be allowed to be enabled by default), only a limited amount of items can be used per battle. Perhaps by Miracle Shooter, or perhaps none at all. This would also come with higher leveled opponents.

Musicality · Oct 2, 2014

Cerberus87 said:
Nope.

Sidney dies to Blaziken. Actually, scrap that, you don't even need to dig that deep. Anyone who has a ****ing Mightyena can't be too hard to beat.

Phoebe is the hardest, because of Dusclops, but a Dark Pokémon should take her down with some effort.

Glacia dies to Manectric. Or, better yet, Magneton. Glalie can't do a thing to Magneton.

Drake dies to Ice Beam.

How is that hard?

Foe Alakazam used Focus Blast!
It's super effective!
Tyranitar fainted!

Lucian's Alakazam has Focus Blast. What do you do, pray for a miss? That's a gamble, and Pokémon is about maximizing your chances of winning, not relying on gambles.

Besides, Lucian even has Gallade to wreck Tyranitar with.

Now, my opinion on the matter. The Elite Four is an attrition race. You're not supposed to lose to the first one. If you can't overpower the first one, your team needs work. Your team should be able to easily crush the one you have the most advantage against. In the games prior to BW, the first one was always a pushover. The hardest was probably Lorelei with Lapras, but if you had an Electric Pokémon you beat 80% of her team anyways.

I like to beat the Elite Four without PP-healing items, so it becomes an interesting challenge of managing your moves while accounting for the good matchups you have. In the new games, you can beat them in any order, so it might be better to look up the E4's Pokémon and see what you'll have the most trouble with, and save it for last. I never seem to build a good team against Marshal in BW, because I don't carry Psychic Pokémon, and his Pokémon have countermeasures against Flying Pokémon. Against Flint in Platinum, you'll need a Ground Pokémon because he uses Sunny Day, so Water Pokémon are disadvantaged.

You don't necessarily need to *crush* the first elite four member. The whole idea of them being the four most powerful trainers excluding the champion is to make each battle a challenge. That's why is the Pokemon League. Even if they want to specialize in types, it'll be cool for them to have a reliable way to cover their weaknesses without just mindlessly spamming STABs. Emerald was pretty challenging for me, maybe our opinions and experiences differ somewhat.

While I agree that the Elite Four shouldn't be rage-quit difficult, beating each of them should be a challenge in itself, and while you don't have to crush the first member with your pinkie, you should feel a sense of accomplishment when you beat him because you fought for your victory. There're the last five battles in the storyline, anyhow. You shouldn't be beating them by pure type advantage / levels alone, and they shouldn't be relying solely on a single Pokemon as a counter to their weakness. Yeah, I was too young to understand Sun's effects, so my Empoleon didn't do well. Not to mention he didn't like taking a STAB sun fire blast to the face. xD

Khoshi · Oct 2, 2014

I found the Sinnoh Elite Four hellish, especially Platinum's version, simply because of Lucian. I had things like Garchomp and Empoleon to take care of the first 3...then Lucian and his Alakazam sweep me. Not even my pseudo-legendaries and Giratina can do anything to him. The Unova Elite Four stomped on my face. Their type setups do let you destroy them with pretty much just Scrafty, but their moves and Pokemon of choice usually tend to overpower me. It was only in X/Y that I found them easy, personally.

Sabrewulf238 · Oct 2, 2014

Personally the only elite four I thought was super easy was the one in Pokemon X & Y. That was pretty much a curb stomp battle for me.

The 5th gen one wasn't that strong either, but at least it put up some kind of resistance.

Cerberus87 · Oct 2, 2014

Musicality said:
You don't necessarily need to *crush* the first elite four member. The whole idea of them being the four most powerful trainers excluding the champion is to make each battle a challenge. That's why is the Pokemon League. Even if they want to specialize in types, it'll be cool for them to have a reliable way to cover their weaknesses without just mindlessly spamming STABs. Emerald was pretty challenging for me, maybe our opinions and experiences differ somewhat.

While I agree that the Elite Four shouldn't be rage-quit difficult, beating each of them should be a challenge in itself, and while you don't have to crush the first member with your pinkie, you should feel a sense of accomplishment when you beat him because you fought for your victory. There're the last five battles in the storyline, anyhow. You shouldn't be beating them by pure type advantage / levels alone, and they shouldn't be relying solely on a single Pokemon as a counter to their weakness. Yeah, I was too young to understand Sun's effects, so my Empoleon didn't do well. Not to mention he didn't like taking a STAB sun fire blast to the face. xD

After they changed the format to allow you to battle each member in any order you want, I do believe that you need to crush the one you have the most advantage against. In the older format, it was intended to be an escalating challenge, since the levels increase as you go on. If you can't even beat the first one, or if you can but you have a very hard time, chances are you won't get very far. The first one isn't necessarily the easiest, but that depends on your team. For example in RBY Bruno has two Onix, which is a very weak Pokémon. This can make him easier than Lorelei.

HollyYoshi · Oct 2, 2014

No mention of Gold and Silver's Elite Four? I barely had an issue with them. I mean, yeah, Lance was tough. But everyone else? Yeah, not much of a problem.

Musicality · Oct 3, 2014

Cerberus87 said:
After they changed the format to allow you to battle each member in any order you want, I do believe that you need to crush the one you have the most advantage against. In the older format, it was intended to be an escalating challenge, since the levels increase as you go on. If you can't even beat the first one, or if you can but you have a very hard time, chances are you won't get very far. The first one isn't necessarily the easiest, but that depends on your team. For example in RBY Bruno has two Onix, which is a very weak Pokémon. This can make him easier than Lorelei.

Yeah, I actually preferred the old format a lot better. Especially since they aren't challenging at the moment, so actually having a "ladder climbing" challenge of sorts would be way more fun. It also allows you to gauge where you stand if you're somehow underlevelled.

Rising_Dawn said:
No mention of Gold and Silver's Elite Four? I barely had an issue with them. I mean, yeah, Lance was tough. But everyone else? Yeah, not much of a problem.

Lance was tough, but he wasn't as bad as the other champions. The major drawback is that Dragon has a glaring weakness to ice, and many of his Pokemon have 4x weaknesses, namely Charizard, Gyrados and his beloved Dragonites. They usually die to a decent move, due to the fact that it does 4x damage.

Cerberus87 · Oct 3, 2014

Musicality said:
Yeah, I actually preferred the old format a lot better. Especially since they aren't challenging at the moment, so actually having a "ladder climbing" challenge of sorts would be way more fun. It also allows you to gauge where you stand if you're somehow underlevelled.

The new one favors the player. :P But there's not much change apart from the levels being all the same.

Musicality said:
Lance was tough, but he wasn't as bad as the other champions. The major drawback is that Dragon has a glaring weakness to ice, and many of his Pokemon have 4x weaknesses, namely Charizard, Gyrados and his beloved Dragonites. They usually die to a decent move, due to the fact that it does 4x damage.

If you don't have an Ice move, GSC Lance can be quite difficult. Dragonite is a very strong Pokémon and he has three of them, each with a different elemental move for coverage. The others aren't too hard. Koga might be annoying with Double Team but he isn't strong enough to take advantage of it.

But Lance is Champion so he doesn't count as Elite Four in GSC/HGSS.

Also, any Elite Four is easier the deeper your pockets are. Having lots of healing items usually saves you from much trouble. The Elite Four is the perfect time to use Ethers, too.

Hikamaru · Oct 3, 2014

Pendraflare said:
Yeah, i've seen quite a few people bring this up before. Personally, the only thing I feel that kept Hoenn's Elite Four from being any crazier was the fact that they had almost no variety. Sinnoh's I found to be rather easy except for Lucian, who admittedly was far harder than the other three.

BW's I don't think were that easy, because their Pokémon were pretty strong and you didn't have as many options to combat them (especially Marshal), although Scrafty does do a good chunk against them. For Black 2 and White 2, on Normal Mode I felt their levels were a bit on the low side and their teams weren't much different at all, not to mention more options to combat them with. Challenge Mode on the other hand...Choice Scarf Chandelure, and a Metagross, anyone? And teams full of Expert Belts and other competitive boosting items? Crazy.

XY, on the other hand, i'm gonna agree with the majority here and say that they were pretty underwhelming, which feels like a dirty confession but sadly, it's true. In most of my playthroughs (read: challenges), the only member I ever really found to be a major challenge was Siebold, but admittedly he can be pretty scary.

I agree with all of what you said. Regarding Unova's Elite Four, that Chandelure of Shauntal's can be a really huge nightmare in B2/W2 Challenge Mode (I remember in Marriland's Black 2 Wedlocke it easily destroyed a Conkeldurr that he had since an early portion of the game, along with its Drapion partner and it was just with one shot of Fire Blast) especially with all the coverage it has. Caitlin's Metagross is also nothing to sneeze at, and basically all the competitive-level strength and use of held items made it definitely much harder.

Kalos sadly were pretty easy, but as mentioned Siebold can put up a fight thanks to his powerful Clawitzer with its coverage and also his "dancing" Gyarados that ran Dragon Dance alongside a trio of Water, Ground and Ice moves for near perfect coverage. If you don't have any Electric-types, that thing can wipe you dead if you let it Dragon Dance too much. Wikstrom is also fairly tough, especially given his team's secondary types meaning you can't easily mop the floor with one type. Doesn't help his Probopass has fairly good coverage and has Sturdy, and Aegislash can destroy you if you let it Swords Dance and don't have an effective method to take it out.

Sinnoh's were fairly challenging, but I do remember hearing about how tough Lucian was compared to the previous three members of that group. His Bronzong was very annoying with high defenses and only a single weakness to Fire, and in Platinum he has strong attackers in Alakazam, Espeon and Gallade who are fast and hit hard.

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