• Our software update is now concluded. You will need to reset your password to log in. In order to do this, you will have to click "Log in" in the top right corner and then "Forgot your password?".
  • Welcome to PokéCommunity! Register now and join one of the best fan communities on the 'net to talk Pokémon and more! We are not affiliated with The Pokémon Company or Nintendo.

Ukraine Protests

5,983
Posts
15
Years
  • At the moment Ukraine is courted by both Russia and the European Union for a closer integration with either power. The trouble is that while the President has rejected a deal with the EU late 2013 for closer relations with Russia, many Ukrainians favoured closer ties with the EU and see this move as the President selling out the country to unwanted Russian interests.

    What complicates the situation even further is that Ukraine is a divided country. Journalistic charts show that the country has a marked difference between east and west - in the east, most people speak Russian (predominantly or natively, the charts weren't clear) and voted the president in, in the west, most people speak Ukrainian predominantly and voted for the opposition. While it is not to say that Ukraine will experience a split, as many people are nationalist and identify as Ukrainian even if they happen to speak Russian and favour closer ties with Russia, it does mean that the country is very polarized geographically. The biggest protests have naturally occurred in the western half, and mostly in Kiev, the capital. But the eastern half of the country contains over 40% of the population, and protests have been more mild.

    The fact of the matter is that Ukraine can benefit from closer ties with either Russia or the EU. Different parts of its market supply either power. I haven't looked into the economic detail, but Ukraine has a greater opportunity to modernize if it taps into the common market of the EU. Joining the EU will require Ukraine to strengthen its democracy and its protection of human rights.

    It's not clear what will happen at this stage, as the country is divided and the protesters are fierce but don't particularly like any of the opposition leaders. But if anything, both voices supporting and denouncing the current administration is strong. More to come in the weeks or months ahead.
     
    14,092
    Posts
    14
    Years
  • Actually, they just announced earlier today that a deal is now in place (w/ current president Yanukovych) that allows for early elections and a newly minted constitution. So that's a plus. Now what they decide to do with the election is up in the air. I'm of the opinion that the Ukaraine will try and shift more to the EU in defiance of KGB Overlord Putin. There's more in it for them financially and economically, much more more potential for growth.

    EDIT: And they have just voted to release former hottie PM Yulia Tymoshenko from prison.
     
    Last edited:

    Ivysaur

    Grass dinosaur extraordinaire
    21,082
    Posts
    17
    Years
  • Yanukovych fled the country, his party in shambles and voting for his impeachment, which was passed today- Chairman of Parliament Oleksandr Turchynov is the new acting President until the May elections. Meanwhile, Timoshenko's party is taking over state offices and filling the vaccum of power as she returned to Independence Square. Seems like the coup has succeded. Now to see where this leads, and how will Russia react to the pro-EU wave that took down the Government.
     
    Last edited:
    14,092
    Posts
    14
    Years
  • I found it interesting that the coup took place during the Olympics, as it's perfect/brilliant timing - Vlad was too busy with the Olympic ceremonies to intervene directly. I think it's obvious though that the new government is going to be Pro-EU, the only question now is what Russia's going to do now that he pomp and circumstance of the Olympics is over with. Imagine the ♥♥♥♥storm if Russia tried to intervene militarily.

     
    5,983
    Posts
    15
    Years
  • Good observations with the timing. In hindsight, it seems that Putin had very little control over the country at all - I'm sure the deposition of Yakunovich came as a nasty if unexpected shock. It seems all too easy that the parliament was able to release Tymoshenko and call for Yakunovich's arrest. Too bad for Putin, his power over Europe grows thin.
     
    14,092
    Posts
    14
    Years
  • I think the Ukraine may have to just cede Crimea to Russia to avoid a major incident. That region is historically Russian to begin with, and the alternative could be open conflict. The EU/UN needs the United States to bankroll and lead a hypothetical coalition against Russia, and I don't see that happening. England, Germany & France together might be enough politically to force the EU into some kind of action, maybe an embargo or sanctions of some kind, but, the US needs to play a major role if we want Russia to stand down.
     

    £

    You're gonna have a bad time.
    947
    Posts
    10
    Years
  • For pro-Putin people, this is wonderful. He's not standing down, and he's got the West terrified since he's very important to have onside for pretty much any global matter; and a very threatening opponent both politically and in terms of military force.

    Britain's government are clearly reluctant to press this one too hard. We're talking the talk, but we're actually far from keen to inflict any embargo that would in the end be of great harm to our economy, putting us on bad terms with Russia, and getting next to nothing in return for our troubles.

    Putin won't take anything less than a solid grasp on Ukraine, and he may be very willing to go to great extents to get it. He did it with Georgia with ease, and he may do it again.

    Having Crimea annexed to Russia is VERY optimistic. That's really a best case scenario if that manages to happen.

    A civil war in Ukraine with Russia leaving them to it seems like an outcome that... is a lot better than it could be.

    Nothing to do but wait... I have an awful feeling about this.
     
    5,983
    Posts
    15
    Years
  • The Ukraine crisis through the whimsy of international law

    Spoiler:
    A good read. A solid check to the anti-Putin meal feed.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/the-ukraine-crisis-through-the-whimsy-of-international-law-1.2559980
     
    5,983
    Posts
    15
    Years
  • Oh, and there's this for the tl;drers:

    V0YbtbI.jpg


    A image macro picture is worth a thousand words.

    There are also leaked cables of American diplomats discussing the opposition figures they'd like to install after the crisis ends (presumably in their favour).
     

    Ivysaur

    Grass dinosaur extraordinaire
    21,082
    Posts
    17
    Years
  • There is the smaaaaaalll tiny little bit of the entire thing being a revolt over a treaty with the EU that the president refused to sign against the opinion of the Western half of the country, of Yanukovich having suffered another revolution in 2006 when he used electoral fraud to win the elections, of the Russians poisoning the previous president Yushenko, of Yanukovic sending the opposition leader to jail on ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ charges, the fact that Russia is doing whatever the hell they damn please all over the area, international treaties be damned, while the US isn't getting anything and the EU will have to put a 15€bn credit to keep Ukraine alive...

    Oh, and the little tiny fact that UKRAINE HASN'T ENOUGH GAS FIELDS OF THEIR OWN JUST FOR THEMSELVES, and, in fact, Russia will start charging them a 30% more for the gas they have to buy off Russia. And, as a bonus, a lot of those fields are in Crimea- yes, the area Russia, not the eeeeeviiiilll US, Russia, have invaded without warning.

    I know that lots of conspiracy theorists want to blame the US for everything that goes on in the world ever but reality is truly more complex than the the stock "gas oil CIA" trope.

    Can we see those cables? Aren't they just discussing the "possible people who can rise to power", without any US intervention? (Because it would be kind of a failure for a diplomat not to make such a list during a crisis of this level just to have an idea of who they might have to talk to in the future- we do where I work and we are just a news agency!)
     
    Last edited:
    5,983
    Posts
    15
    Years
  • Yeah I read the cables. They're on BBC or something and they're pretty ugly. And I'm not taking the memepic literally, but the point is that it's humorous and that American interests in Ukraine go beyond the protection of human rights. There's going to be a referendum in the Crimea, but Canada and the US aren't going to recognize it because of "Russian pressure". When I hear "protect human rights and democracy", I hear "let's get our boys in". This emphasis on human rights and democracy is just a weakly veiled attempt to challenge Russia on its own turf. I recognize that Russia has its turf, a lot more than China but a lot less than the US.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957
     
    9,468
    Posts
    15
    Years
  • The Ukrainian crisis has deep roots in history and culture. The fact that the current Ukrainian parliament is a rump parliament excluding representatives from the east (mostly from Yankovich's party) makes all of their talk about about how Crimea's similar pro-Russian rump parliament actions illegitimate kinda hypocritical
     
    9
    Posts
    15
    Years
    • Seen Mar 25, 2014
    So apparently Russia is building up a lot of military at the Crimean border and the Western states are taking this to mean that Russia has plans to further invade Ukraine. Looking at it from a Russian perspective, it seems more likely that they're just trying to up their defense in the area to prevent possible western invasion. It seems much more like a scenario of the security dilemma rather than aggressive posturing from Russia.
     

    Ivysaur

    Grass dinosaur extraordinaire
    21,082
    Posts
    17
    Years
  • ...why would any Western country ever try to invade Russia? What would it be to gain with another European war? Why would Russia think anybody would want to throw millions upon millions of euros and people to the fire of war in order to gain... what exactly?

    The Russian paranoia is getting even worse, and I could understand that feeling back in the 80's when the surrounding countries were nominally their sworn enemies, but now that they haven't been for over 20 years?
     

    Oryx

    CoquettishCat
    13,184
    Posts
    13
    Years
    • Age 31
    • Seen Jan 30, 2015
    This thread seems relevant to bump up as some truly frightening news is coming to light - in one city that has been taken over by Pro-Russian protesters, the new "government" is forcing Jewish people to register themselves and all their property. This is very clearly a ploy in the same way that it was a ploy in the 1930s to focus anger and resentment on the Jewish people. It's a great boon to us now that we have the history to beat this kind of thing back (hopefully) and the technology to know about it when it happens, but it's amazing to me how blatantly a group of people can try to imitate what a great deal of people see as the worst atrocity in human history and not see a problem with it.

    Source
     
    5,983
    Posts
    15
    Years
  • It's pretty confusing - I'm wondering what Russia's motivations are, what they're getting out of this. Perhaps they're worried about EU getting too cosy in their backyard, so to speak.
     

    Blu·Ray

    Manta Ray Pokémon
    382
    Posts
    14
    Years
  • NEWS:

    NATO, EU, Ukraine and Russia have made an agreement on trying to restore peace to Ukraine. At the same time, Putin does not acknowledge Russian troops in Ukraine, and he claims no relation to them.

    [source]
     
    Back
    Top