Game Timeline

Cerberus87 said:

Thanks for saying what I wanted to say, the bit about the box system pretty much proves FRLG and RSE were concomitant or at least very close in the timeline, because how could you link with Lanette if Lanette was in the future? Of course, the Hoenn Pokémon may have existed since the very beginning of the series' timeline, but if RSE were (much) ahead of FRLG in the timeline, a point would've been made in the games themselves about Hoenn being a number of years after the other games. 3rd gen, unlike BW, was a "true reboot", because they retconned a lot of the things about the old games afterwards, like, existence of Dark and Steel-type, existence of Johto Pokémon before Johto becoming relevant to the storyline, and so on.

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Was it established that they started their projects during our adventures? No, they just have worked together is all we know(which has little to do with everything that's going on other than trading between regions). With it being the first reboot, they may not have had a whole timeline thing planned out so it might not have matter as much to them then. As I'm sure we can all agree on, a remake could place things better than the 'next to nothing' info we have now to get a true idea of where the Hoenn storyline comes into play.

What I see from Xander's post is the further possibility of a zelda timeline.

Cerberus87 said:

An explanation wasn't needed because the games ran on the same mechanics. Although, I'm not sure you can use Black Kyurem/White Kyurem for link play against someone who has BW (linking compatibility aren't my strength because it's been a while since I last linked with someone).

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You can't use the new forms(because, IIRC, they weren't programmed in the original games) but that still doesn't take from the fact that B2W2 happened two years after BW yet can trade and battle with each other as if they occurred at the same time. Same game engine or not, the whole argument you and others made about how RSE and FrLg had to be at the same time was based on the direct trade between the two sets. That was broken when B2W2 came along(like a lot of a things) because they did not happen simultaneously with BW yet can communicate like nothing's different.

There would have been no problem at all with making some kind of time thing to connect the two stories. That could possibly show that it is the least of their worries.

Cerberus87 said:

This was retconned in HGSS.

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Until we are 100% sure that no further remakes are coming, I think we can safely say that there is a possibility of a more recognizable retcon with Hoenn's main games.

Just like how the 'new' type thing was made arguable later on until HGSS came around.

Cerberus87 said:

But the PC system and the ability to connect with Lanette became plot points as soon as the characters were mentioned.

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They may connect the regions, but that doesn't mean that they automatically connect the main plots of their respective regions(Aqua/Magma and the Rockets doing what they did as we played through). About all we know is that they, over time, have helped each other on the PC systems of the regions. There is no mention of when they started or how long they've been working on it or anything. They know each other, not a big deal really.

HOWEVER, if we're going this route then I'll consider the possibility of after FrLg, considering the connection takes place after the main stories there. I'm not going to fully believe though until we get much more notable things thrown at us.

Cerberus87 said:

It could go both ways. In BW, Ghetsis is shown to have obtained the Adamant, Lustrous and Griseous Orbs from DPP. How, it's not known and probably will never be, but it's something of note and we know BW takes place many years after DPP.

The fact the Red/Blue/Jade Orbs are in a different location in HGSS therefore rules out the possibility that RSE is concomitant with DPP/HGSS. So they can only be before or after those games. Since there's no evidence of them being after apart from the two grunts in B2W2, even though they mention things in the past and it could be a small while or a huge period of time, I'm going to go with them being before 4th gen. I suspect they could be after FRLG but not long after.

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Like I'm surewe can agree on, this is opened to different interpretations, as with a lot of other stuff.

Cerberus87 said:

Another thing, which isn't much of a proof but makes you wonder, is the fact that, of all the new evolutions discovered in 2nd gen and 4th gen, I believe Crobat and Kingdra are the only ones to appear in RSE. Crobat/Bellossom/Politoed/Slowking/Espeon/Umbreon/Steelix/Scizor/Kingdra/Porygon2/Blissey aren't native to Kanto, although they can be obtained in FRLG (not Espeon/Umbreon though), but only after you obtain the National Dex. The new evolutions from 4th gen aren't known in Hoenn, which pushes it far back in the storyline.

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Couldn't that go both ways as well seeing as Kingdra and Crobat are available during the main storyline?

Also note that Marill, Azumarill, Slugma, Magcargo, Chinchou, Lanturn, Wynaut, Wobbuffet, Phanpy, Donphan, Natu, Xatu, Heracross, and Girafarig, among others(all of which were introduced in Gen II) happen to be native to Hoenn as well. Can we automatically write that off as just coincidence? I'm not using it as proof, because it really isn't either, but more as something to think over as well.

Cerberus87 said:

The incident with Teams Magma and Aqua had little repercussion out of Hoenn because not even all of Hoenn was affected by the change in the weather. If we take Emerald as canon, Brendan/May managed to summon Rayquaza before things got more dangerous. Besides, I think criminals like Team Plasma wouldn't take Magma and Aqua much seriously because Maxie and Archie weren't high criminals like Giovanni for example, they did criminal deeds but their ultimate goal wasn't a criminal one. And, in comparison with Team Galactic, they were much less dangerous. Maxie/Archie couldn't even control the Pokémon they summoned. Meanwhile, Cyrus was able to capture several legendary Pokémon and was only stopped because Giratina intervened.

Another thing to contribute to the debate: a trainer in FRLG mentions Bruno trained with Brawly once. For someone of the stature of Bruno (E4 member) to have trained with Brawly, it must've been after Brawly became gym leader. Brawly was already a gym leader during the events of RSE, and he doesn't look too old either.

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*sigh*

It's not all about how sinister the plans were, even though Aqua ans Magma chose thievery, etc. as well to accomplish what they wanted. The Grunt makes mention of how noticeable they made themselves and that being the downfall of their plans. Make of it as you wish, but Magma and Aqua made themselves well known as well.

As for Brawly and Bruno, now you are(as you claimed I was) seeing what you want it seems. Them training together doesn't mean it had to have been after he became gym leader, they could have been old friends for all we know. On top of that, correct me if I'm wrong but, we don't even have real ages to work with. While I'm not going to argue that Brawly isn't on the younger side, Bruno doesn't appear to be ancient either, just really fit(although a safe bet is that he is older nonetheless).

C Payne said:

Was it established that they started their projects during our adventures? No, they just have worked together is all we know(which has little to do with everything that's going on other than trading between regions). With it being the first reboot, they may not have had a whole timeline thing planned out so it might not have matter as much to them then. As I'm sure we can all agree on, a remake could place things better than the 'next to nothing' info we have now to get a true idea of where the Hoenn storyline comes into play.

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A remake wouldn't add much info. The idea that DPP and HGSS took place at the same time is taken from the events in DPP itself, not HGSS.

C Payne said:

You can't use the new forms(because, IIRC, they weren't programmed in the original games) but that still doesn't take from the fact that B2W2 happened two years after BW yet can trade and battle with each other as if they occurred at the same time. Same game engine or not, the whole argument you and others made about how RSE and FrLg had to be at the same time was based on the direct trade between the two sets. That was broken when B2W2 came along(like a lot of a things) because they did not happen simultaneously with BW yet can communicate like nothing's different.

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You can freely trade between RBY and GSC as well. Of course, you can't trade new Pokémon and moves back to RBY, but you can trade back some stuff that didn't exist in RBY (such as Alakazam with the elemental punches). So (relatively) free trade is possible between games in different time frames. The only reason you can't do battle between RBY and GSC is the different game mechanics. Back then, it was explained through a time machine.

However, and this is a BIG however, you can still do free battle between RBY and GSC if you have a platform which supports both. This platform was called Pokémon Stadium 2 for the N64. In PS2, RBY cartridges could be used and then obeyed GSC mechanics in the game's battles.

BW and B2W2 don't have any different game mechanics. Two years have passed, but no moves nor Pokémon were added. This is why a "time machine" isn't necessary.

With regards to the RSE/FRLG thing, it's never stated that there is trade along different time frames. However, there is evidence that it can't be concomitant with DPP/HGSS, because the Orbs aren't in Hoenn during this period, and it can't be after BW either, since BW is after all the other games. This leaves the period between DPP/HGSS and BW, the period between FRLG and DPP/HGSS, or concomitant with FRLG. But how can you explain RSE being after DPP if none of the new evolutions discovered in Sinnoh are known to Hoenn locals?

3rd gen retconned a lot of things it shouldn't have, IMO. Because in 2nd gen it was made clear that the new Pokémon from Johto were discovered after the original 151, and the new types were a recent discovery as well. With 3rd gen, Johto Pokémon appear in Hoenn and the Sevii Islands, and the Steel-type is no longer unknown. RSE should've been placed after GSC, but as it stood, it was so detached from the other regions that it almost seems like it's from another dimension.

C Payne said:

They may connect the regions, but that doesn't mean that they automatically connect the main plots of their respective regions(Aqua/Magma and the Rockets doing what they did as we played through). About all we know is that they, over time, have helped each other on the PC systems of the regions. There is no mention of when they started or how long they've been working on it or anything. They know each other, not a big deal really.

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The plots are connected, because, where are all the Hoenn Pokémon coming from? They're caught during the plot of RSE and traded to the plot of FRLG, without any mention of time travel.

C Payne said:

Couldn't that go both ways as well seeing as Kingdra and Crobat are available during the main storyline?

Also note that Marill, Azumarill, Slugma, Magcargo, Chinchou, Lanturn, Wynaut, Wobbuffet, Phanpy, Donphan, Natu, Xatu, Heracross, and Girafarig, among others(all of which were introduced in Gen II) happen to be native to Hoenn as well. Can we automatically write that off as just coincidence? I'm not using it as proof, because it really isn't either, but more as something to think over as well.

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There are Johto Pokémon in Hoenn, just like there are Johto Pokémon in the Sevii Islands. Retcon of 2nd gen.

C Payne said:

*sigh*

It's not all about how sinister the plans were, even though Aqua ans Magma chose thievery, etc. as well to accomplish what they wanted. The Grunt makes mention of how noticeable they made themselves and that being the downfall of their plans. Make of it as you wish, but Magma and Aqua made themselves well known as well.

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Known only in Hoenn. And even in Hoenn, there are parts of the game where you don't see any mention of Aqua/Magma.

There's no mention of Aqua/Magma in further games of the series outside the grunts in Icirrus City, who live anonymously. If their actions were recent (as in only a few years ago) and relevant (as in worldwide relevant), there would be people in Unova discussing them in both BW and B2W2, much like there were people in both Johto and Kanto discussing Team Rocket's actions three years prior in HGSS.

Maxie was a reckless buffoon. Once he found out he couldn't control Groudon, he devised a stupid plan of stealing rocket fuel to cause an eruption in Mt. Chimney. It's one of the most senseless things I've seen a Pokémon villain do in the games, because it really had no reason, he wouldn't gain anything by doing it, and it certainly doesn't help the case of making people take Aqua/Magma more seriously.

C Payne said:

As for Brawly and Bruno, now you are(as you claimed I was) seeing what you want it seems. Them training together doesn't mean it had to have been after he became gym leader, they could have been old friends for all we know. On top of that, correct me if I'm wrong but, we don't even have real ages to work with. While I'm not going to argue that Brawly isn't on the younger side, Bruno doesn't appear to be ancient either, just really fit(although a safe bet is that he is older nonetheless).

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Doesn't mean it's after Brawly became gym leader, but he was old and important enough to be taken under Bruno's wing. He doesn't look older than Bruno either. Bruno is an Elite Four member, it's assumed it takes hard work and recognition to reach such level. And time, of course.

This IMO is another proof that RSE is at the very least before DPP/HGSS because, if it was far into the future, Brawly would have to have been a kid when training under Bruno, who was a young adult in RBY. The NPC in FRLG references Brawly as a "guy", so, at least someone in his teens.

My evidence may not be all that strong, because, like I said, Hoenn seems to have happened in another dimension, but at least I'm not basing it in ifs, coulds and shoulds.

You all will never convince me! Ever!

Cerberus87 said:

A remake wouldn't add much info. The idea that DPP and HGSS took place at the same time is taken from the events in DPP itself, not HGSS.

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I didn't say they happened during HGSS/DPPt, I'm talking about where RSE fit in general. We've shown time and time again that we have no definite spot as of yet.

Cerberus87 said:

You can freely trade between RBY and GSC as well. Of course, you can't trade new Pokémon and moves back to RBY, but you can trade back some stuff that didn't exist in RBY (such as Alakazam with the elemental punches). So (relatively) free trade is possible between games in different time frames. The only reason you can't do battle between RBY and GSC is the different game mechanics. Back then, it was explained through a time machine.

However, and this is a BIG however, you can still do free battle between RBY and GSC if you have a platform which supports both. This platform was called Pokémon Stadium 2 for the N64. In PS2, RBY cartridges could be used and then obeyed GSC mechanics in the game's battles.

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With Stadium 1 and 2 being pretty early(before a lot of this time stuff came into play) and different takes at the time at that, can we truely call them 100% revelant? Even then, if they are able to do what you say(It's been a long time since I've tested it out) it's just as bad as the BW and B2W2 incident.

Cerberus87 said:

BW and B2W2 don't have any different game mechanics. Two years have passed, but no moves nor Pokémon were added. This is why a "time machine" isn't necessary.

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Yeah, me being able to freely trade and battle with myself from two years ago totally makes sense!(note the obvious sarcasm there) A time machine should be used for time as well, even if not much has changed. I personally see that as a pretty noticeable flaw of Gen 5. They could have been connected with some sort of time mechanism but didn't. Why? Who the hell can know really other than them? This supports that they may just not care as much about time as the fans are obsessed with.

Cerberus87 said:

With regards to the RSE/FRLG thing, it's never stated that there is trade along different time frames. However, there is evidence that it can't be concomitant with DPP/HGSS, because the Orbs aren't in Hoenn during this period, and it can't be after BW either, since BW is after all the other games. This leaves the period between DPP/HGSS and BW, the period between FRLG and DPP/HGSS, or concomitant with FRLG. But how can you explain RSE being after DPP if none of the new evolutions discovered in Sinnoh are known to Hoenn locals?

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Once again, I don't recall making any mention of RSE happening alongside HGSS/DPPt. If we do happen to get remakes, they could retcon Hoenn much better like HGSS retconned Johto better for the most part.

I'm sure they also hadn't really planned a real timeline back then(aside from Johto events being after Kanto; RSE were a reboot anyways). This could also explain why RSE is so messed up like you pointed out.

Cerberus87 said:

3rd gen retconned a lot of things it shouldn't have, IMO. Because in 2nd gen it was made clear that the new Pokémon from Johto were discovered after the original 151, and the new types were a recent discovery as well. With 3rd gen, Johto Pokémon appear in Hoenn and the Sevii Islands, and the Steel-type is no longer unknown. RSE should've been placed after GSC, but as it stood, it was so detached from the other regions that it almost seems like it's from another dimension.

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Has that showed you the possibility of it happening somewhere/time other than alongside FrLg? Like I mentioned above, they may have not planned much to do with a timeline in the first few gens. RSE was a reboot, which detached it from the first two sets. Aside from the 3 years between the first two regions, nothing notable was really made about a timeline until DPPt came along and discussed the Red Gyarados incident.

Cerberus87 said:

The plots are connected, because, where are all the Hoenn Pokémon coming from? They're caught during the plot of RSE and traded to the plot of FRLG, without any mention of time travel.

There are Johto Pokémon in Hoenn, just like there are Johto Pokémon in the Sevii Islands. Retcon of 2nd gen.

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More than likely just another retcon like Johto Pokes appearing in the Sevii Islands. Refer to a certain point I made above. If Hoenn Pokemon did indeed come into Kanto during that time that means they also had huge access to Johto, with it being a neighbor and sharing Pokemon with Kanto, so why weren't Hoenn Pokes added into the regional dex of HGSS?

Cerberus87 said:

Known only in Hoenn. And even in Hoenn, there are parts of the game where you don't see any mention of Aqua/Magma.

There's no mention of Aqua/Magma in further games of the series outside the grunts in Icirrus City, who live anonymously. If their actions were recent (as in only a few years ago) and relevant (as in worldwide relevant), there would be people in Unova discussing them in both BW and B2W2, much like there were people in both Johto and Kanto discussing Team Rocket's actions three years prior in HGSS.

Maxie was a reckless buffoon. Once he found out he couldn't control Groudon, he devised a stupid plan of stealing rocket fuel to cause an eruption in Mt. Chimney. It's one of the most senseless things I've seen a Pokémon villain do in the games, because it really had no reason, he wouldn't gain anything by doing it, and it certainly doesn't help the case of making people take Aqua/Magma more seriously.

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If they moved there after the events, that doesn't mean that they are going to announce what happened to all of Unova. As with Galactic and Rocket's events, they were stopped before things spread beyond in their respective regions(Rockets being in two, but that made sense anyways with Johto and Kanto as neighbors). I don't recall anyone mentioning Rocket and Galactics events on a usual basis either in B2W2, or BW for that matter. Furthermore, even though they were a ways in the past, that didn't stop the Plasma Grunt mentioning Galactic and Rocket's flaw. It's really strange that they didn't at least note the stupidity(as everyone seems to think) or simply the flaws behind Maxie and Archie's plans, which also would have led to a global disaster had Rayquaza not intervened(something big).

The last part of the first paragraph isn't fair because Johto and Kanto are neighbors, so are likely prone to the same attacks, while Hoenn and Unova, as far as we know, are pretty distant. The latter was pretty independent so it's still likely that the events of Gen III wouldn't have been widely known there at the time.

Also, while Maxie weren't exactly thinking 100% clearly during the raid on the Space Center, that obviously caused even more publicity for the team, regardless of how meaningless it really was(yet again, what the Plasma Grunt was referring to in BW). Even then, that could just be one of the original flaws that could be better addressed in a remake. If they were really a joke in the population's eyes though, everyone downstairs wouldn't have been a bunch of cowards until we came along.

Cerberus87 said:

Doesn't mean it's after Brawly became gym leader, but he was old and important enough to be taken under Bruno's wing. He doesn't look older than Bruno either. Bruno is an Elite Four member, it's assumed it takes hard work and recognition to reach such level. And time, of course.

This IMO is another proof that RSE is at the very least before DPP/HGSS because, if it was far into the future, Brawly would have to have been a kid when training under Bruno, who was a young adult in RBY. The NPC in FRLG references Brawly as a "guy", so, at least someone in his teens.

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Aaron of Sinnoh's Elite Four looks pretty young as well(compared to other E4 members in general) but that didn't stop him. Guy is a general term so it doesn't necessarily have to mean he's in his teens either(not saying you were 100% meaning that, just addressing the likelyhood of not being so), so there's not much to go by there either(aside from Brawly being younger than Bruno, I agree there). Looks can be pretty misleading though because Cyrus looks a fair bit older than he really is. The guy looks like he's in his late 30s/early 40s.

Cerberus87 said:

My evidence may not be all that strong, because, like I said, Hoenn seems to have happened in another dimension, but at least I'm not basing it in ifs, coulds and shoulds.

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There's no reason to be ashamed about including ifs/coulds/shoulds into the discussion because a lot of things really don't add up as of now. All of this has been really interesting to me.

I'm not 100% against what you are saying, I just don't agree with it 100% either.

GF bring out the secret time line you have stored because Pokémon has become the new Zelda... no really someone should cause it seems we'll never agree on this. I just hope XY and third version (if they do that) are like DPP in that they give us a hint that actually helps unlike the stones in RSE. Also the whole PC thing in Gen III seems to have been tossed out in gen 5 as the pc girl mentions how Babe,Bill,and the others developed the pc. So that hint isn't much...

A lot of the arguments here are Pokemon found or native and blah blah, really has very little to do with it as a timeline is based on events.