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  #76    
Old July 12th, 2012, 02:52 AM
Asuf's Avatar
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If you ever played Diamond/Pearl or Platinum, there is a man who will judge how your Pokemon feels about you as a trainer/friend. (By looking at it's footsteps, don't ask me how! )

If you put a Pokemon with high happiness, the man will mention wild Pokemon showing envy towards the Pokemon being trained. So this may imply that wild Pokemon want to be caught and travel around with a trainer/friend, however as others have mentioned in this thread, Pokemon test the trainer by battling them, if the trainer is skilled, he/she will catch the Pokemon.
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  #77    
Old July 12th, 2012, 02:57 AM
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^ that is a very good example I never thought of it that way. I've played it and I do remember the man, I never got a negative feedback from him.
  #78    
Old July 12th, 2012, 03:23 AM
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Seriously guys, Pokémon started out to be a kid's game. And the "ideal kid" does not act like Einstein and prove 30245 facts that Pokémon is unreal on. Forget that. You guys have a point there. It is in fact, quite odd about those things. But we just have to relate this from our life as well. We treat our pets nicely, they love us back. But if we don't treat them good, then they wont listen to you much and do mischievous things. And it also depends on THEIR personality. They too, can be Brave, Cowardly, Smart, Naive, Rash, Modest, Paranoid and other things like us. (If Pokémon rulez the world it would be da greatest xD). Like animals, poor Lapras has been extensively hunted (for transport reasons) and is endangered. And about "trapping them in Pokéballs", it was a convenient technique invented by scientists to have Pokémon with us all the time. Face it, xD. But PMD and others tell you more about this.
  #79    
Old July 12th, 2012, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kylio_27 View Post
"Trainers" capturing these innocent animals and enslaving them in these tiny pokeballs.
This was clearly not the case with Ash's Bulbasaur.

From Bulbapedia:
"Bulbasaur managed to save Oddish at the last second, and was touched when Ash dashed out to help him get to safety. It then used Vine Whip to deflect the vacuum and Pidgeotto drove Team Rocket away. Melanie encouraged Bulbasaur to join Ash, explaining that its growth was being stunted by staying too long in the village. Bulbasaur agreed to join him once Ash defeated it in battle. Bulbasaur put up an excellent fight against Pikachu, using its vines to seize and smash Pikachu onto the ground repeatedly. However, a powerful Thunderbolt fried Bulbasaur and stunned it long enough for Ash to capture it."

Bulbasaur was neither forced to battle or forced into the Pokemon against its will. It wanted to go with Ash.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kylio_27 View Post
"Forcing them to fight one another(causing physical and psychological harm), as something a sadist would enjoy.
Pokemon aren't forced to battle. If they don't want to fight, they won't, or in Ash's case, if he DOESN'T want it to fight, it will.

Bulbapedia:
"In The Problem with Paras, it was revealed that Charmeleon had lost its loyalty to Ash, attacking a Paras when Ash was trying to deliberately lose in order to help Paras evolve. Cassandra's grandmother explained that Charmeleon's skill level had exceeded Ash's, and therefore it did not respect him anymore"

But later...

Bulbapedia:
"In Charizard Chills, Charizard battled Tad's Poliwrath. It blatantly refused to listen to Ash's commands, continuing to try Flamethrowers despite them having no effect on Poliwrath. Tad and Poliwrath shrugged all of them off until Poliwrath responded with a Water Gun that nearly doused the flame on Charizard's tail. It was then encased in ice by Poliwrath's Ice Beam, much to Ash's horror. Ash managed to smash the ice encasing Charizard's head, and Tad walked away scornfully, telling Ash that they would have a rematch when he could control Charizard.
Ash lit a fire and thawed Charizard out, before rubbing Charizard all over to help it regain its body heat. Pikachu pointed out that Ash's hands were rubbed raw, but Ash replied that he didn't mind, Charizard's flame was so small that Ash redoubled his efforts. Charizard woke up in a panic and tried to attack, but it was so cold that it couldn't produce a flame and passed out again. Misty provided a blanket and Tracey kept the fires up whilst Pikachu watched the flame, but Ash himself worked throughout the entire night to help Charizard recover.
Ash stayed up all night trying to thaw it out and, in the process, rubbed his hands completely raw. The selfless act reminded Charizard of everything Ash had done for it since it was a Charmander. By morning, Charizard's respect for and loyalty to Ash had returned, and it helped Ash rescue Pikachu from Team Rocket"

Quote:
Originally Posted by kylio_27 View Post
That's like saying there is a "real bond" between a manager and his prize fighter. No, the fighter is who freely chooses to fight. A pokemon is forced to, just like animals are forced to fight or entertain us.
Was this a forced fight between Ash's Charizard and Tracey's Scyther?

Bulbapedia:
" Ash walks closer as Charizard uses Flamethrower on Ash. The attack also heads toward Scyther, but it deflects it with its scythes. Charizard notices as Scyther steps closer. Charizard stands up, as the two seem ready to fight. Ash stops them as the two turn away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kylio_27 View Post
Animals can't communicate to us intelligently. When you see a rodeo, you can't tell if the horses "don't mind".
Horses have a mind of their own. They could easily resist if they wanted, which is why they are trained to do various things and become use to them. It's not as if these animals just do everything we want them to anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kylio_27 View Post
It isn't justified. It is still promoting violence for entertainment, at the expense of a pokemon's health.
At some point in time, everything and everyone is guilty of it. Even shows like SpongeBob and Ed, Edd'n Eddy. Still if you watch the anime, the Pokemon like battling. You can't tell me you have never watched a show or movie with some kind of violence or conflict in it. Even Dora the Explorer has a fox that attempts to steal from people in every episode. Is that promoting theft?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kylio_27 View Post
Two roosters(or whatever animal) could just refrain from fighting one another, which would suggest they voluntarily decided not to fight. The problem, however, is that the pokemon universe as a whole promotes this violent entertainment, regardless of whether or not it truly is voluntary.
Except I'm pretty sure if 2 real animals refused to fight for their "trainers", they'd be killed, unlike Pokemon. Plus these animals are trained to kill, while Pokemon are trained simply for competitive purposes. It's no different than football, where the coach sits on the side while the players are the ones tackling and getting tackled. Should we put an end to football as well, or martial arts? Again, as proven in the games and anime, battling is completely up to the Pokemon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kylio_27 View Post
How did the pokemon get to a conditioned state of compliance(for the most part)? They were living free, were captured, and then all of a sudden enjoy fighting?
Pokemon naturally enjoy fighting, or else they wouldn't do it. Even though Ash's Charizard refused to listen to him, it only would help him if it could show off its power, as was the case with Blaine's Magmar. Charizard thought Magmar would be a worthy opponent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kylio_27 View Post
And the true point in all of this, is that pokemon promotes senseless violence. If a "trainer" really cared for his/her pokemon, he wouldn't even expose them to such things.
Again, you are assuming the Pokemon hate battling when everything in the Pokemon universe says they are fine with it.

And, if a coach cared about his players, why does he make them run laps, or lift heavy weights, or follow the rules of the game instead of their own? The word is "team". Every team has its positions, and Pokemon is no different. The trainer is the "coach", while the Pokemon are the players, which is justified because like in sports, they compete by choice. (Ash wanted to use Pikachu against Misty's water Pokemon for his 2nd badge, but Pikachu did not want to battle her, so Ash used Butterfree instead.)

The Pokemon WANT to take part in such things. Pokemon are creatures that seek to reach their full potential, which is realized when they evolve into a more powerful form. This is where trainers come in. The trainers help the Pokemon reach that ultimate potential by training them for battles, helping them win and gain experience, which then eventually results in evolution.

There are exceptions to this as well, as Pokemon aren't forced to evolved if they don't want to either. Ash's Pikachu has refused to evolve into a Raichu, and Ash has been fine with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kylio_27 View Post
Capturing pokemon is an initiation of force. Promoting pokemon fights is thoughtless and disgusting.
Is promoting 2 guys in a cage that WANT to fight disgusting if they WANT the world to watch them fight to see who is the better fighter? Or should the coaches and trainers of these cage fighters be the ones in the cage? Again, fighting WITH RULES IN PLACE TO ENSURE PROTECTION FROM SERIOUS INJURY is no different than any other sport, which is the same as a Pokemon battle.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kylio_27 View Post
Perhaps those wild pokemon attack because they know the motives of these trainers, which is to capture them.

Even then, why capture them? Defend yourself from a pokemon(or animal) all you want, but why the need to take them?
I think you're using real-world logic to explain a fictional world with fictional creatures. In the Pokemon world, capture =/= slavery. Sure, some Pokemon might prefer to be wild, but they aren't being forced to do something they wouldn't naturally do.

As for why catch them, it's a video game meant to encourage multiplayer entertainment through trading and battling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kylio_27 View Post
Parents don't capture their children. Stupid comparison.
But parents DO control their children. Same thing, just no capsule. Still, catching a Pokemon is not wrong if it is treated correctly, which is why in real life, we are allowed to have pets and train them...if it is done CORRECTLY.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kylio_27 View Post
So what you're implying is that pokemon are inherently willing to lose their freedom to be prize fighters for these trainers, so fight back to test them and not to defend their freedom? Sounds like we have a pokemon apologist on our hands, folks.
Once again, Ash's Bulbasaur. And in the games, the Legendary Pokemon only appear before the trainers they deem worthy of their power. The battle is the test. Otherwise, why would these all-powerful, time-bending, space-warping Pokemon, or even universe creating Alpha Pokemon be able to live with itself inside a Pokeball?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kylio_27 View Post
But I'll humour you. Even if that were true, the universe still promotes violence, violence for entertainment. Such things shouldn't be promoted. It is a social paradigm that just reeks of hypocritical values.
Pokemon is a show that teaches that through teamwork and friendship, a group of friends can all achieve more together as a team. A trainer becomes wise and through training his Pokemon and battling, while the Pokemon can become for stronger than they possibly could have on their own. (Yes, Pokemon DO seek to become stronger, which is proven in the fact that once they hit a certain level of strength, they transform into a stronger and often bigger form.) And overall, the trainer and his Pokemon become allies and friends. Pokemon could be basically called "Superpowered Creature Football", and seeing as how football (despite being violent itself) is still accepted in society, I doubt Pokemon could be called "terrible". In the end, it's just a video game and a children's cartoon.
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  #80    
Old July 12th, 2012, 10:16 AM
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Well as it turns out in the Pokemon Universe God is not only confirmed to be as real as the dirt under your feet, but that he created pokemon to serve humans and to like it too. The struggle of catching a pokemon is a test just as the chore of training them. The notion that pokemon want to live seperately from humans conflicts directly with the confirmed fact that Arceus created them specifically to do just the opposite. Depending on how faithful your favorite alternative pokemon media is to the games they're based off of, pokemon may also be human's meat source. They were created specifically for this purpose as well. But hey, look on the bright side--In the same vein, Pokemon also reincarnate after they die. While not everyone in-game knows this for sure, and arguably most don't, we as people observing from outside do.

Regardless, pokemon are superheroes in animal form. A human is not realistically physically capable of 'abusing' a pokemon short of inventing superweapons, and even those are pretty much destined to fail. Using pokemon against eachother is literally the only way humans can protect themselves.


You can trust me on this because I'm a roleplayer, and it's therefore my job to actually study pokemon, so that I know what I'm talking about.

Hi.


Anyway, I'm glad to see fans of Jack Thompson's work are out here discussing violent video games. Now we can clear up some longstanding misconceptions. Just the same as punching a pillow does not make you want to punch a person more, violent video games do not make you want to commit violence anymore than you already did. In fact, they suppress that urge via giving people an outlet for their emotions and are a positive influence on people of all ages. To go even further, in contrast oppressing people by taking away their outlet /does/ in fact make the urges worse.

Calling Pokemon a very violent video game is a stretch, anyway. Although the lore has some very dark premises, the actual gameplay is somehow reminiscent of wrestling, a sport, in that there are structured rules and combatants (usually) recover after their fight. Not to mention, if you've ever done actual research on animal abuse in the form of forcing animals to fight, you'll find that a resemblance to pokemon is very vague and superficial at best.
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  #81    
Old July 12th, 2012, 11:24 AM
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The way I see it is like boxing or martial arts. They fight because they enjoy it, and their trainers are like coaches.
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  #82    
Old July 13th, 2012, 11:16 AM
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Dude isn't this debate pretty much... the basis for the entire plot of Pokemon Black and White?? The entire storyline pretty much revolves around the issue of whether training Pokemon is cruel or not. Team Plasma's goal is to "liberate" all Pokemon, much like how animal rights groups like PETA promote "animal liberation". N repeatedly shares his views with the player character, allowing you to really see where he's coming from. He views Pokemon battling as a cruel sport, and Pokemon training as a cruel practice, capturing Pokemon against their will and forcing them to fight each other... I mean, naturally BW doesn't go very far into the aspects of violence and ethics and Pokemon sentience, but it's pretty much the same argument going on.

And the interesting thing is, it flips the issue around. Team Plasma presents the idea of the Pokemon world... without Pokemon training. You are literally fighting Team Plasma to prevent the realization of that goal, a world where Pokemon mind their own business and humans leave them the hell alone (something the OP suggested as a better alternative in an earlier post). BW, rather than dabbling in the argument between whether Pokemon training is ethical or not, takes the alternative and invites you to think about it. Team Plasma speaks of separating humans and Pokemon in a positive light, while Gym Leaders, in confrontations with Team Plasma, describe the bonds trainers share with their Pokemon. In one scene, Bianca's Munna is stolen by Team Plasma, and once reunited both the trainer and the Pokemon are overjoyed. Even N, in his interactions with the player character, starts to have second thoughts. At one point he even says he regrets that some trainers and Pokemon will have to be separated; he points out that clearly you, the player character, and your Pokemon are close companions.

BW focuses on the sense of friendship and union between trainers and Pokemon, explaining that capturing and battling Pokemon is not a means of cruel disrespect for the Pokemon but a means of building a bond between the trainer and the Pokemon. They work together as equals. Which is something Pokemon in general has always made apparent, I think. It's not a series about human trainers with Pokemon slaves on the side. It's a series about human trainers and their Pokemon companions growing and learning together. And all that corny junk.

I think if you try to take Pokemon and look at it in a realistic manner, trying to square it with the way people and animals and fighting work in real life, of course it's going to look all kinds of sick and wrong. But you have to keep in mind that this is a fantasy universe, and these are fantasy creatures. It's a friendly simplified world, and Pokemon training is a friendly simplified sport. And, probably most importantly, Pokemon are not animals. Morals and ethics regarding real world animals do not translate to morals and ethics regarding Pokemon. They're friendly, wacky, and apparently sentient creatures that just so happen to enjoy fighting each other for fun.

SO REALLY, more to the point, Pokemon has already addressed this issue, in depth, with Black and White. I'm surprised no one else has mentioned it!
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Last edited by iLike2EatPiez; July 13th, 2012 at 11:25 AM.
  #83    
Old July 13th, 2012, 03:41 PM
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Alright. You know Ash's Charizard? At first he doesn't respect Ash, and choose not to fight. If pokemon didn't like their trainers, they could just ignore like charizard.
  #84    
Old July 13th, 2012, 06:58 PM
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I did feel bad about the whole concept of "catching" them and what not, but in this universe the Pokemon all seem very aggressive- they go as far as to attack young kids even if they step into one patch of grass. Pokemon are proven to have more intelligence than the common animal of our world (they even seem to understand human speech in some cases), so it could easily be assumed that they are aware of what they are doing. With fear of being attacked it seems logical for one to bring a tamed Pokemon to protect oneself. A lot of Pokemon do seem to LIVE for battle, but that certainly would not be my favored use for them in the universe. I would probably enjoy the role of a Professor or scientist to learn more about why they are genetically built to battle even from egg birth.

There is also the option of running away and releasing Pokemon as well, and in the 1-2 episode I did watch on the anime, most Pokemon seem to run free. The ones that did have trainers seemed to appreciate having a "master" to watch over them. Ash for one I heard is known to release his Pokemon into the wild after some time, apart from his beloved Pikachu. I believe they have their own police force to prevent the abuse of Pokemon as well, yes?

Last edited by Tetrakeet; July 13th, 2012 at 08:55 PM.
  #85    
Old July 13th, 2012, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iLike2EatPiez View Post
Pokemon are not animals
Yes - I would like to further explain this.

Well...explaining is a waste of time. This is a quicker and better way to explain it:

Spoiler:


Here, it clearly states that Pokémon are not biological animals. So this means that your comparison from Pokémon battles to animal fighting has these problems:

1) The premise is entirely wrong.
  • Pokémon: Pokémon battles are fought for many different reasons. The most common is for self-improvement, and the second most common is fame.
  • Animal fighting: Animal fighting is fought for one reason: money. There is no fame or self-improvement to be earned - it is simply a gambling match.
2) The bond between trainer and trainee is completely opposite.
  • Pokémon: The Pokémon usually respects the trainer, as can be seen in all main series Anime and Manga. Also, a "happiness" indicator and "happiness"-induced evolution and moves like Return in all the main series games shows that there is an incentive to have a bond with the Pokémon (i.e. trainees).
  • Animal fighting: There is no incentive to bond with the animal (i.e. trainee). In fact, it is the opposite - there is always a chance your animal may die in a match, and not just temporarily - forever. So if you don't develop an emotional bond between you and trainee, the faster you can overcome grief and start training your next subject.
3) Pokémon are not animals.
Spoiler:
  • Pokémon:
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by The Electric Tale of Pikachu, page 10
    POKÉMON:

    The name for a mysterious species not recorded in traditional biological taxonomies.
    So we can conclude that Pokémon =/= in biological taxonomies.

    Which leads us to animals - let's start off by searching the definition of "taxonomies", since taxonomy is in itself part of biology.
  • Animals:
    Spoiler:
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Taxonomy
    Definition

    noun

    (1) The science of finding, describing, classifying, and naming organisms, including the studying of the relationships between taxa and the principles underlying such a classification.

    (2) The classification of organisms in a hierarchical system or in taxonomic ranks (e.g. domain, kingdom, phylum or division, class, genus, species) based on shared characteristics or on phylogenetic relationships inferred from the fossil record or established by genetic analysis.


    Supplement

    For example, organisms are classified into clades (i.e. a taxonomic group of organisms based on homologous features derived from a common ancestor) in phylogenetic taxonomy


    Word origin: from Greek taxis, arrangement, order + -nomia, method, from -nomos, law, managing, from nemein, manage.

    Related forms: taxonomical (adjective), taxonomically (adverb), taxonomer (noun).
    Related terms: chemical taxonomy, numerical taxonomy.
    I would like to focus on one spot:

    Quote:
    (1) The science of finding, describing, classifying, and naming organisms, including the studying of the relationships between taxa and the principles underlying such a classification.
    So we can conclude that In biological taxonomies = organism.

    Next: what are organisms?
    Spoiler:
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Organisms
    Definition

    noun, singular: organism

    Living things that are capable of reacting to stimuli, reproduction, growth, and homeostasis.


    Supplement

    Plants, animals, fungi and microorganisms are examples of organisms. They all consist of monomeric units called cells. Some organisms may function independently or singly (unicellular) whereas others may form many units (multicellular) divided into specialized tissues and organs. Based on cell type, organisms may be divided into prokaryotes and eukaryotes.


    Word origin: Greek - organismos, from Ancient Greek organon , meaning "organ, instrument, tool".
    Related forms: organismal (adjective), organismic (adjective), organismically (adverb)
    See also: superorganism, microorganism.


    Now, again, I would like to focus on one spot.

    Quote:
    Plants, animals, fungi and microorganisms are examples of organisms.
    This means that:
    Pokémon =/= in biological taxonomies.
    In biological taxonomies = organism.
    animal -> organism

    Using the transitive property, this means that:
    If you are an animal, then you are in biological taxonomies.

    Now, since if you are an animal, then you are in a biological taxonomy, that means that:
    If you are an animal, then you are not a Pokémon.

    Sorry if my logic is a little off tonight, I'm tired. But I hope you understand my point.

    Anyways, on to my point.

    Fighting = Fighting, because it is reflexive; they are one and the same. Which is true - they are both the same word, see?

    But then, let's look at animals and Pokémon. Because of the theorem we worked out earlier, let's look at it this way:

    Animal =/= Pokémon

    And so if you add the "fighting" aspect to both sides, it is still not the same. Why? Because Animals and Pokémon aren't the same in the first place, but "fighting" is.

    I hope I have let you see what I mean - that your comparison of these two things in two different universes have no correlation to each other whatsoever. However, as a disclaimer, this alone doesn't prove that Pokémon battling is morally okay. So I acknowledge that much.
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  #86    
Old July 14th, 2012, 01:03 PM
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The "Pokémon aren't real" argument doesn't really work here, as it's questioning the morality of containing Pokémon in relatively small objects and using them to battle each other, not whether they're real or not. Just saying.

Anyways, I feel like the way you described it, is for Pokémon trainers where really bad criminals would lie. Obviously there are people that catch Pokémon completely against their will, and use them for battle even though they don't want to, but such behaviour against Pokémon isn't something that most trainers either do or want to see, and it doesn't appear to happen often at all. Pokémon could probably been interpreted that way if all you had seen from the franchise were the first two games, however the newer games brought happiness and such with you to determine how well a Pokémon actually likes you, and the anime is bringing it in a lot how trainers do take good care of their Pokémon, and how the trainers that don't aren't exactly liked. Furthermore, it shows that Pokémon usually aren't obedient out of fear, but because they actually wanna fight for their trainer, which makes the whole enslaving thing completely false. Yes, they do give a fight and struggle, but that is probably just instinct and to kind of test out the trainer, rather than it's a struggle to avoid being caught. Of course there are roaming Pokémon that mainly flees from you, though I don't have any argument for that :/

But yeah, Pokémon are far from animals being enslaved and used to battle against each other for humans' sick enjoyment.
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  #87    
Old July 14th, 2012, 01:13 PM
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Hello, N.

On a less sarcastic note, I am so tired of this attitude.

Pokemon training is not at all comparable to animal cruelty. At least, not as it is presented in the anime.

Think of it this way: picture a giant Pokemon like Piloswine that can flatten a silly ten year old kid who is lording over it if it so pleased. It could do just that if it truly felt oppressed!

We have seen cruel trainers, but they are far from the norm and are looked down upon or punished for their actions!
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  #88    
Old July 14th, 2012, 02:16 PM
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Pokemon aren't really forced to battle, you know that right?

And when was the last time a dog fighting ring got busted, and they found pokemon cards lying around? It doesn't promote anything other than that playing games with funny looking creatures is cool. Kids who play cowboys and indians dont turn into racial predaters, do they?
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  #89    
Old July 16th, 2012, 12:21 AM
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Yes, I totally agree. After all, it's not like a Blastoise with Hydro Cannon can't completely obliterate a 10 yr old kid to a smear on the pavement if it truly didn't want to battle in the first place. Oh wait.... -.-
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  #90    
Old September 16th, 2012, 06:23 PM
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screw the one who started this thread!!

if you're a hater, why join here?!
  #91    
Old September 16th, 2012, 06:27 PM
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Hey, welcome to PC but please don't insult other members or revive threads older than a month. Both are against the rules. :( I hope you understand! Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.
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