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How large of a map is too large?

Mister Coffee

Mister Coffee

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    So, I'm doing a lot of Map making recently. Lately my maps have been coming out pretty big, or so I think they're pretty large, and I'm starting to get a bit self conscious over whether people will like them or not based on their size. I'm worried people will get bored or tired of running around back and forth through them. One of my most recent maps is 100x100, and although I love looking at it, I keep trying to think like an average player trying to navigate these areas. Would people really want to run through these humongous maps maybe multiple times over because of some quest like event?
    I have the idea of adding rest spots and such so that players wont have to scurry all the way back to pokemon centers, would that help make larger maps less stressful on players?

    What do you guys think of making large maps? What size is too big? Do they become boring or annoying from being too large?
     
    giradialkia

    giradialkia

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    • It's worth taking the official games into account for matters like this. 3rd Gen had some reasonably large maps, as did 4th. 5th gen used BASICALLY the same overworld graphic style as 4th, but had some even bigger maps. 5th was when they introduced random healing spots throughout, and props to them because it was a) a good idea, but b) ABSOLUTELY necessary. As you said yourself, if a player had to scurry all the way back to the Pokémon Center even once or twice, they'll likely come to find it a bit tedious (thus, un-fun).

    Other things to bear in mind is how the map will actually look in the game. A map can look utterly breathtaking when you're making it, but the player sees the world through smaller eyes. Just play it cool - don't go making every single map 120x120. Now I'm not saying you have to cut back and go full RSE Littleroot Town (go have a look, 20x20 is funnily small but they made it work, easily). As long as there's a nice balance of things to discover, people to talk to, Trainers to fight, and a nice pool of wild Pokémon (if it's a route), then a large map shouldn't matter.
     
    Spherical Ice

    Spherical Ice

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    • Adding on to what giradialkia has said, context is also important in this. For example, Route 1 (or whatever the equivalent of the earlygame route is in your hack) should not be this size, and if it is, the part accessible at the beginning of the game should be a relatively small portion of it. Also, having loads of large routes in a row, divided only by towns or cities, can also become very exasperating to play through. In general, I think a pattern of short routes followed by one or possibly two larger routes followed by another short route is the most effective method for pacing, generally with some form of cave, forest or general dungeon in between for a change of scenery which too can vary in length depending on context. So yeah, I don't think there's one single answer to this but it's certainly an interesting discussion point. Another factor is how repetitive or well-mapped the map is, because 120x120 labyrinths full of 1-block-wide paths and un-Flash-able darkness are unequivocally a bad thing, haha. But yeah, like Eoin said, just don't go overboard with it and you should be good!
     
    Mister Coffee

    Mister Coffee

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    Spoiler:

    Okay, so large maps are okay but don't make them really large too frequently then?
    Ever since I made my one map that is 100x100, I've been worried it's too big and have been trying to make mostly maps that are lower then 100x100. I do have a pretty good amount of detail and organized obstacles so that the maps are not boring. I even put some houses in the routes so that there are places to visit that are like safe areas within the large routes. I've been trying to build my maps so that there are direct pathways the player has to follow, but they're a little more wild then regular old, up,down, left, right paths. I'm trying to make the paths look sort of natural but not be annoying to navigate (I read on this forum that a lot of people don't like it when a "natural map" has lots of annoying obstacles to bump into when trying to explore, so I try to keep that in mind when making my maps with their weird path ways.).

    Spoiler:

    The thing that stuck out to me in your post was, "For example, Route 1 (or whatever the equivalent of the earlygame route is in your hack) should not be this size, and if it is, the part accessible at the beginning of the game should be a relatively small portion of it."
    So... what if one of the particularly large maps is in between the second and third town within the game? Is that bad or to big for a player at that point within the game? I was planning on having some events where the player would travel to different spots on the large map within the beginning before moving on to get to the next town, is that still way too large for a more or less beginning area?

    I get nervous about size because of something I'm doing with my map, so lets say I have route that is 100x100 and it spreads out to two maps to the west, north, and south. The maps in the west and north are 60x60, and the map to the south is a town that is 50x50. In between the two 60x60 maps is a city map wedged between them. So in order to get from town A to town B, you could access town B by traveling through either of the two 60x60 maps, so you would end up having to walk through a full 100x100 map and then you would have to travel through on e of the two 60x60 maps, being basically 160x160 worth of walking space between the two towns, is this way too much?
    Simply based on how large this particular traveling area is, I'm a bit unsure if I will do something like it again as I keep building my maps.

    As I said before, I do plan on adding resting points throughout a lot of the maps. A combination of, people who will heal your pokemon inside of a house as well as some decorative tiles that will heal your pokemon a certain amount upon interaction with them.



    Thanks for your answers by the way, this question has been bothering me for a while and is slowing down my map building because I'm not sure what sizes are most appropriate.
     
    Last edited:

    StynaMN

    I make music.
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    • In my opinion, smaller maps are very fitting for the beginning of the game: maps' sizes could somewhat be seen as following the expansion of storyline, with more complex maps coming later in the game.

    However, if you already have large-scale maps done for the beginning of your game, don't change them! Just keep in mind that maps don't always have to be particularly expansive, and that you can always make numerous smaller maps that connect together using the 'Connections' tool of Advance Map.
     
    Mister Coffee

    Mister Coffee

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    "However, if you already have large-scale maps done for the beginning of your game, don't change them! Just keep in mind that maps don't always have to be particularly expansive..."

    ...ha ha, you actually said that just in time. I was seriously just about to dump my 100x100 map and start anew with probably a 50x50.

    Well, I think what I'm going to do to compensate for the incredibly large size of the beginner maps, is to have a bunch of important events in the large 100x100 map in order to give reason for exploring all the areas within the map before pressing forward on to the next town.
    When I built this early 100x100 map, I wanted it to be large because an important event related to the main storyline happens here. I'll also add multiple healing spots in the map. I'm trying to go for average difficulty overall maybe just a little more challenging than a normal Game Freak game, but I'm not trying to do any kind of super hard mode or anything, so I thought that maybe having larger maps might help allow players to have more wild battles while navigating, which would (hopefully) in the long run require less grinding between gyms.

    I'm going to try for a while limiting myself to 60x60 maps at the max, until I get to higher leveled areas in the game.
     

    StynaMN

    I make music.
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    • Snaggle P. said:
    Spoiler:


    "However, if you already have large-scale maps done for the beginning of your game, don't change them! Just keep in mind that maps don't always have to be particularly expansive..."

    ...ha ha, you actually said that just in time. I was seriously just about to dump my 100x100 map and start anew with probably a 50x50.

    Well, I think what I'm going to do to compensate for the incredibly large size of the beginner maps, is to have a bunch of important events in the large 100x100 map in order to give reason for exploring all the areas within the map before pressing forward on to the next town.
    When I built this early 100x100 map, I wanted it to be large because an important event related to the main storyline happens here. I'll also add multiple healing spots in the map. I'm trying to go for average difficulty overall maybe just a little more challenging than a normal Game Freak game, but I'm not trying to do any kind of super hard mode or anything, so I thought that maybe having larger maps might help allow players to have more wild battles while navigating, which would (hopefully) in the long run require less grinding between gyms.

    I'm going to try for a while limiting myself to 60x60 maps at the max, until I get to higher leveled areas in the game.
    Click to expand...

    That's a good idea, having a variety of events take place in a large area: It'll help familiarize the player with the hack early on, I like it!
     
    Mister Coffee

    Mister Coffee

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    StynaMN said:
    That's a good idea, having a variety of events take place in a large area: It'll help familiarize the player with the hack early on, I like it!
    Click to expand...

    Thanks for the support!
    I've kind of had this idea for a pokemon game for a few years now. I have a world map that I drew out a long time ago, and I've written a few pages about the storyline and features I'm aiming for, so the maps have been easy to make in shape based on the world map I've made, but since the world map is a crude drawing, trying to scale down the that map to varying rectangles is a bit of a challenge to me. I've just been making them really large and figured, if they are honestly too big I could just trim the fat and scale them down in size, but by the time I've filled all of the area, I'm constantly making every area within the map matter in some way, so in the end I just get these huge maps.
    I think my map sizes will be less intimidating if I think in the opposite direction, start out small and if it needs more I'll just expand the size of the map instead.

    Also, sorry if I seem kind of vague about things going on in my hack... besides this hack being this huge brainchild of mine, it's also a playground for me to try new things and learn things, plus it's actually my first hack, but because I've put so much thought into it... I kind of want it to be perfect when I start releasing more information about it... I don't want to make any promises I can't keep, especially since I'm a beginner. I started learning how to ROM hack because of this game idea I had, but I really don't want it to be "Obvious Hacker's First Hack", with all sorts of obvious bugs or laziness. Also, it's all in my free time, I don't really have a personal due date.
    I'm lurking around a lot in Hack Hub reading anything that can help me in my endeavors, (Most of FBI's information has been fascinating and resourceful.) and I just finished reading through the Hacker's DCC, and got some great tips and ideas from that, I even had to jot down some ideas from that thread that I never thought of to add to my game until I browsed through there. lol

    Something else I wanted to know about that sort of relates to the "Large Maps" issue. So I'm feeling a little bit of pressure about, "Natural" vs. "Standard" map design. I'm experimenting with both types and forcing myself to run my player character through the different styles of Maps multiple times in order to get an idea of which one feels more comfortable from a player perspective. I've really come to enjoy both kinds but for different reasons. For example I enjoy my "Natural" maps because they feel more mysterious and explorative, but I also like my "Standard Map" because it's perfect for lining up a collection of trainers that move comfortably around in the map without as many obstacles to maneuver around.
    I made sure that within my "Natural" style map, that the varying obstacles never send you through single squared paths (unless I'm funneling the player into an area that forks or something like that, I'll admit I do have a couple of single tiled path ways, but they're rare) because it sounds like people get annoyed by that.
    I was thinking of attempting to build my next route map as a half and half sort of map, half "Natural", half "Standard", sort of like a wild forest that transitions into a city park or something like that, just to see if the combination is more comfortable than the two map styles separated.
    As I said, I'm just trying to do a bunch of experimenting, mostly with mapping at the moment, so I just want an idea of what people are more "comfortable" with playing through. When does a map become boring to you while playing, when is map exciting to travel through, what makes a map unique, etc.?
     

    StynaMN

    I make music.
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    • Spoiler:

    I am in the exact same position, sir! :) I was so graciously given permission to work on a Pokemon game for my semester Computers class project, and have been using the time in and out of class spent on making the game as an opportunity to pick up on numerous skills. Map making has always fascinated me, and just now I'm getting into the process of coloring tiles and making the maps themselves, so I'm just as curious to have other people's opinions come into play as you are!
     
    Mister Coffee

    Mister Coffee

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    Oh, another question that I'm pretty sure is still relevant to the topic, is it better to work with exact square sized maps like 40x40, 60x60, etc., or is it better to work with rectangles like 40x60, 60x80, etc.?

    Most of my maps have been exact squares to start with, but I tried using a rectangle for one particular route, and it did seem to give me a better sense of direction, like the rectangle built the map in one direction to start out with rather than a square which is spread out in all directions and leaves you to determine which direction it is going. It seems useful for routes, but does anybody use rectangle shaped maps to build towns or cities?
     

    kearnseyboy6

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    Snaggle P. said:
    Oh, another question that I'm pretty sure is still relevant to the topic, is it better to work with exact square sized maps like 40x40, 60x60, etc., or is it better to work with rectangles like 40x60, 60x80, etc.?

    Most of my maps have been exact squares to start with, but I tried using a rectangle for one particular route, and it did seem to give me a better sense of direction, like the rectangle built the map in one direction to start out with rather than a square which is spread out in all directions and leaves you to determine which direction it is going. It seems useful for routes, but does anybody use rectangle shaped maps to build towns or cities?
    Click to expand...

    Well a lot of maps are rectangular in the vanilla games. The largest map in FR is Digletts cave (80x80 approx). Also it is important to take the relative size of the map compared to the region and your world map. You wouldn't want a 100x100 route and 50x50 taking the same space on the world map.

    In saying this, I like large maps that require exploration but remember that you are dealing with a large demographic who prefer different things.

    It sounds you have done your research, so I would proceed with whatever you had in mind. If you really have doubts get the community to look over over it, I'm sure they will give constructive advice!
     
    Mister Coffee

    Mister Coffee

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    Spoiler:

    " The largest map in FR is Digletts cave (80x80 approx.)."
    Wow! Is it terrible that I had no idea that that is the largest map in that game?
    I haven't studied all of the maps in Fire Red all that much... I'll be honest, I'm sort of winging it while only taking what I know about map design from memory of playing older games... well actually that and a tutorial I've been keeping track of... the guy explaining that tutorial said his average was 60x60 or 80x80 and he said sometimes he uses 100x100.
    It may sound weird, but I think my drawn out map scales a little differently in my head when put into actual realization and design on the map maker.
    I'm still trying to do more research though, there's so much I still don't know about, but so far this website has been the most helpful resource of information, and that makes everything much easier to find, since there is almost always a thread or response with answers to most of my questions.

    Well I'm starting to work on a new route map which I'm going to try 20x40, just to scale down a bit and work with a smaller and more rectangular map.

    I'll try posting my 100x100 map soon, since that Map is what has been causing me most of the worry over sizing. Once I post it, you guys can give me your honest criticism and tell me if it is way too large/overwhelming, or you can tell me if it just outright looks like a terrible map.

    Edit: Alright I got my Map working right so I'll post it in this comment. Mind you, this is the 100x100 so it's pretty gigantic.

    Map:
    Spoiler:
     
    Last edited:

    Patsfan22

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    • I actually enjoyed reading through everyones replies. They have been useful and insightful... and this isn't even my thread lol.

    You seem to have a good approach on how you are designing your maps. Like said, I wouldn't question yourself too much. Post your doubts here and discuss it with us!
    I remember reading something saying 'don't focus on things the player won't see'. I would take that with a grain of salt, but maybe it will give you something to think about when mapping. If you are making something for the player to see, make sure you design it so the player cares to see it. Or something like that lol. It's easy for a player to just try and skip to the next gym or city just to progress.

    Hope some of that made sense, look forward to your stuff :)
     
    Mister Coffee

    Mister Coffee

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    Spoiler:

    That advice is helpful, I tend to have a habit of questioning my progress really carefully, which can often slow me down because I get worried that things wont be exactly right. So thanks for the advice and support. :)
    I edited my previous post with a picture of my map, so if you're interested take a look and let me know what you think.
     

    StynaMN

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    • Snaggle P. said:
    Spoiler:
    Click to expand...

    That map looks great! I do have a question/concern: have you checked to make sure your border block is properly implemented? I can't tell if they would be visible from the edge, though it does seem you've made an effort to separate the player from the outer edge of the map on sides where there doesn't appear to be a map connection.
     
    Mister Coffee

    Mister Coffee

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    Spoiler:

    All black map borders are completely invisible all throughout the route, the player is pushed away by walls of rock or trees, and any edges of the map that can be followed will lead into one of the three other maps that the route connects to. I always explore my own maps on the visual boy to check for anything that would break my map atmosphere. If further evidence is needed I would be more than happy to post pictures of the edges of this map as seen through the game screen.
    Thanks so much for the response and concerns.

    On a slightly unrelated note, I'm thinking of starting over completely using the Emerald ROM base instead of FireRed. I'm trying to transition over to different tools as well as I want to explore more of Emeralds additional player features. One feature in particular that I really want, is to crack into the scripts for Battle Frontier and really play around with them.
     

    Patsfan22

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    • The map looks pretty good. Wonder how much of a trek it is in gameplay. There seems to be some direction, but this map would be meant to be explored more. I think knowing which direction (i.e. The building is north of the forest) to go would be enough to not feel lost. If that makes sense. The only problem I have with it is the sand area. It feels layered weird and honestly think the tiles clash a bit. Just minor issue. :)
     
    Mister Coffee

    Mister Coffee

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    Spoiler:

    I have lots of little signs throughout the map that say things like "North: Water Resevoir, West: Route 108 and 109, South: Softlight Town" and on top of that, despite how chaotic the route looks, there are actually only two main directions. When you start at the bottom of the map which is the entrance into the route located in the south east, the opening path forks into two different directions, if you head straight North from the entrance into the route it will take you deeper into Route 107 which will NOT lead out into the other two routes but will instead take you towards the water reservoir in the North East corner of the map, there are supposed to be multiple events that take place here which involve a few differnt events and story dialogue. If you enter the route and head down the path that forks off towards the West, it will take you through a slightly windy path through the middle of the forest which will pass you through the tiny rest stop with the water well and then past that it spits you out into the desert, from the opening into the desert you will now have a fork in the road that will take you either West into route 108, or North into Route 109.

    I'm not sure by what you mean that the tiles clash a bit? Do you mean that the Desert tiles look strange when lined up next to the grass tiles? Or is it the change in colors between the rock and cliff formations? I was trying to make the map appear that the brown rocks were natural to the muddy and fertile soil of the forest area, and the greyish rocks and cliffs were supposed to appear as hardened, sandblasted stone. The whole map is supposed to slowly transition from one natural environment into the other, so the fact that they look vastly different is important. I will admit, maybe having the two different stone colors meld into one another of something of that sort would probably look nicer and even make more sense, but that would probably involve a fair share of tile editing, which I have not done very much of (I have experimented with tile design and know how to do it, but I've been trying to design my maps with the idea of reconstructing them again with homemade tiles again later on, that process might change however since I am now thinking very carefully about completely starting over again with an Emerald ROM).
     

    Patsfan22

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    • I see what you were going for, and you did a pretty good job transitioning one area into another. I'm not entirely sure how to describe it, but the North West corner just looks a little off. When the mud/sand meets the cliff it looks a bit odd. As well as the amount of ledges merging into similar plains. Like one section seems to drop severalet times then merges into grass (from the cave area) then the path above that looks a different height, but merges into a path with the same height as the other path..... probably would be easier to point it out on the screen shot, but I can't do that from mobile lol
     
    Mister Coffee

    Mister Coffee

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    Spoiler:

    "As well as the amount of ledges merging into similar plains. Like one section seems to drop severalet times then merges into grass (from the cave area) then the path above that looks a different height, but merges into a path with the same height as the other path.."

    Oh my goodness, I think I know exactly what you're talking about!
    Here, I edited an area of the map that you were talking about and I pointed out the aesthetic flaw that I think you're taling about.

    Does this look like the issue?
    Spoiler:
     
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