1. Both of you made the same incorrect assumption that I mentioned the average size of women to imply that that should be the average size of models. I mentioned the average size of women as a counterpoint to Lotus' "I'm the same size as models and they make me feel better about myself, therefore it's an attitude problem, not an actual problem" - because the majority of women are very emphatically not the same size as models, and thus have a very different experience when they see them.
2. Lotus, I'm not sure why you assumed that disagreeing with having all models identical sizes that are in a practical sense unachieveable for most women is "demonising perfectly health women for the sake of the self esteem of the overweight". I would like to point out that all I'm talking about is wider representation of body types, and you've turned it into being demonized. How is not having every single straight-size model in existence be within 2 sizes of you imply demonization?
Firstly, my body size is not impractical/unachievable. I eat things I want to eat and don't go out of my way to exercise and I maintain my weight. However, I don't have lazy habits (if I can walk somewhere I walk there), I don't over eat and I eat a varied diet. The only thing that stops overweight women from being my weight is the difficulty of breaking habit.
With regards to my comment about demonisation, by targeting the models for their body shape you are demonising it. This goes deeper than this debate, thin, healthy people are being attacked for being thin. Overweight women are bemoaning the fashion industry for making them feel insecure about themselves, so they go out an insult thin women for not being "real women" or their favourite catchphrase "Real men want curves, only dogs want bones". I have curves, thank you very much. How exactly is this behaviour and attitude helping?
If you want to take action against something in the fashion industry, perhaps focus on the post processing (i.e. photo shopping) done by the advertisers or magazines, which does have serious implications. This isn't contained to the fashion industry though, as a number of celebrities are guilty of doing this to their own photos.
With regards to your comment on model sizes. Fashion designers don't make multiple pieces of the same design to match all the potential sizes of model there may be. They will make one piece in one size and if you don't fit in it you can't model it. As a result the scope of sizes of women will be limited.
Where it is catalogue modelling, this is different as there should be enough stock of sizes to enable selection of different women. Whether they chose the same size because the bulk stock of bookable models is that size or because that's the size they want to display, I'm not sure. Either way, there are always plus size models which can range from size 10 to 18 to account for other sizes.
3. Why do we even need an "ideal"? The "where should we set the ideal weight to make women who don't match it feel terrible about themselves" argument is bunk from the start. Instead, we should remove the idea of an ideal. It's very clearly based in societal norms and not based in some base human nature that loves skinny women, considering in the past overweight women were seen as more attractive due to many societal reasons that differed by culture.
I explained why the "ideal" is used. Everyone wants to be better than everyone else, so they're trying to sell that perception. Without the desire to be like what the fashion adverts show you, what's there to make you purchase their products? Clothing will be reduced to necessity. Even if you show women of different weights they're still going to be beautiful women.
I agree that the ideal of thin women is not ingrained. I discussed this previously in a thread this year. People want to be better than everyone else, today that means money and fame. The rich and famous dictate what is attractive. If you go through the past perceptions of beauty, you will find that they follow the general appearance of the rich.
This also rests on another bunk argument - that if the media shames overweight women by making sure they know that they are not beautiful, they are not the ideal, and they need to change to match it if they want to be beautiful, those women will change. Studies have shown that women feeling shame about their weight do not work to change it, on the whole - they eat more, they're more depressed (which causes weight gain), they're more sedentary. I know from my own personal experience that I began to lose weight when I began to love my body and want to take care of it. I did it from a place of comfort with myself, not shame. When you hate your body, why would you take the time to make it healthy? The focus on health regardless of weight and the focus on loving your body go hand in hand.
I agree that media is the problem with women having body issues. I don't agree that the fashion industry is the problem. As an example, below is a cover from OK magazine (not a fashion magazine). Trashy women's magazines feed off your insecurity, and I think anyone with body image issues needs to stop reading this filth.
On the other hand, I looked through some Vogue magazine covers, which is a more fashion focused magazine, for comments on body shape and found the below. It does comment on model's great figures, but right below that it mentions an article about fashion to flatter "every figure", which is a positive article.
If you cycle through Vogue covers in general they focus on the new season looks and not on body shape so this isn't particularly common from what I saw. They look more like the second and third image. I persoanlly don't see how this is feeding body image problems.
On the other hand, here are some more OK magazine covers. These magazines are the ones sending the messages that make women expect they should be able to lose 7 lbs in 7 days, or even 10 lbs in 10 days.
This is a bit of a side note that was brought up with "everyone else just has an attitude problem" and will likely be brought up by that previous point - blaming a sociological trend in opinion on the people is willfully ignoring the point of sociology. There is a reason why a majority of people in a certain culture share the same opinion about something. When there's a crack in the dam and the river is getting through, you don't tell people to start trying to collect the water coming through and throw it out to solve the problem; you find the crack and fill it. There's a reason why when an entire class is failing, people look to the teacher and not the students. We are all influenced by our surroundings, well before we can even talk or fully understand what we're seeing. Sociological studies on opinions that don't make sense in your personal worldview are not there for you to say "well I think that opinion is stupid so I'll just get the 90 million people to be less stupid and solve the problem!" It's there to point out that there is a root cause for all of this, and if we find the root cause and fill the crack, then opinions will naturally shift. In society, the "cause" is much more complex and multifaceted. Models are certainly not the only cause, and allowing women of all sizes to be put up as desirable will not overnight cause people to change their opinions. However, it does contribute and stemming one crack is better than telling the river that it shouldn't flow.
Sure, but I still don't think the fashion industry is the problem, just the easy target.
I disagree here. While men don't really have as much of a fashion presence in comparison to women, men are portrayed extremely unrealistically in most modelling positions, probably even moreso than women. Most male models are chiseled to the extreme and have very good proportions and the like, while most female models are thin but not particularly body-built. It's far easier to attain and maintain a thin body than a muscularly pronounced body.
Even the most healthy of men find it difficult to maintain that sort of body, while the "thin" look of women is not nearly as difficult to attain. I had a "thin" "model" body through my late teenage and early adult years without even really trying, and quite a few women can do this as well. The same cannot be said for the male expectation.
I agree with this. Men have it worse. The "ideal" body shape for a woman, as I mentioned above, is very easy to maintain. To keep the muscular physique men are portrayed with requires constant training.
