Tek's VGC 2015 Team

PlatinumDude said:

I already answered it: Defeatist doesn't take base stats in account (Archeops' 140 for instance doesn't go down to 70). It uses the stats as seen in the summary screen; refer to the example I mentioned. I already said I got them from Bulbapedia and Smogon and neither mention base Attack and Special Attack; they simply say Attack and Special Attack, which I assume is the Attack and Special Attack stats as seen in the summary screen.

If you want to keep Archeops, fine. Keep in mind that it's not ideal to use in doubles.

And what WolfMirage is trying to say here is that some Pokemon function in doubles better than others. Archeops is one of those Pokemon that falls flat in that department, mainly because of its frailty and terrible ability. This is why I'm advocating for removing Archeops entirely in favor of better options.

Click to expand...

I see, we're working from an assumption about the description of Defeatist's mechanics, rather than research and experimentation.

If we further assume that what you've indicated are the correct mechanics, we're still left with a situation where Head Smash's move power is unaffected by Defeatist. In other words, we have a power 225 move with a 96 Atk stat.

If my rough estimates are correct, this should be slightly less than what we see coming from Jolly Talonflame's Brave Bird/Flare Blitz. Adamant Talonflame obviously would have a higher Atk stat behind the move. My point is that Head Smash still appears to do decent damage while Defeatist is active.

Recoil damage is sucky, that's for sure. Yet that doesn't stop Talonflame users. Talonflame offsets this with Gale Wings. Archeops' option is to turn its own low HP into a high speed (though not priority) weapon with Endeavor.

It will struggle with Intimidate, but so do all physical attackers. Really the biggest flaws I see are the weaknesses to Rock, Ice, Electric, and Water.

Anyways, I'm not asking for permission to use Archeops. I'm looking for reliable, accurate information about its performance and overall fit within my team and the metagame.

But still, thanks for taking the time to respond at all :] This discussion is already quite helpful!

Tek said:

I see, we're working from an assumption about the description of Defeatist's mechanics, rather than research and experimentation.

If we further assume that what you've indicated are the correct mechanics, we're still left with a situation where Head Smash's move power is unaffected by Defeatist. In other words, we have a power 225 move with a 96 Atk stat.

If my rough estimates are correct, this should be slightly less than what we see coming from Jolly Talonflame's Brave Bird/Flare Blitz. Adamant Talonflame obviously would have a higher Atk stat behind the move. My point is that Head Smash still appears to do decent damage while Defeatist is active.

Recoil damage is sucky, that's for sure. Yet that doesn't stop Talonflame users. Talonflame offsets this with Gale Wings. Archeops' option is to turn its own low HP into a high speed (though not priority) weapon with Endeavor.

It will struggle with Intimidate, but so do all physical attackers. Really the biggest flaws I see are the weaknesses to Rock, Ice, Electric, and Water.

Anyways, I'm not asking for permission to use Archeops. I'm looking for reliable, accurate information about its performance and overall fit within my team and the metagame.

But still, thanks for taking the time to respond at all :] This discussion is already quite helpful!

Click to expand...

You forgot about Steel. Archeops also struggles with Steel Pokemon like Metagross and Scizor, as both have priority Bullet Punch.

And for future reference, I'd recommend looking at this link and this link to see which Pokemon have a chance at being viable in this year's VGC format.

PlatinumDude said:

You forgot about Steel. Archeops also struggles with Steel Pokemon like Metagross and Scizor, as both have priority Bullet Punch.

And for future reference, I'd recommend looking at this link and this link to see which Pokemon have a chance at being viable in this year's VGC format.

Click to expand...

Ah yes, Steel also. But Quick Guard Archeops doesn't struggle with Bullet Punch anything heehee. My answer to Metagross, Scizor, and Lucario is Delphox.

Thanks for the links! I'm sure there's a lot of good stuff in there. But perhaps not divine writ :P

PlatinumDude said:

I'm afraid you have plenty to learn about the doubles format.

Click to expand...

I've actually tried to set a battle up with you on 3DS several times to demonstrate some doubles strategies and tactics you don't seem familiar with - but you never respond :c It's like you don't want to put any of this into practice, so much as just talk about it.

Can we get a match in? I can bring an ally switch user or two to demonstrate how to effectively use it.

Tek, your Archeops having Ally Switch would be more beneficial however - if you had something that had the opposite weaknesses/resistances of it, or a bit more bulk. Heliolisk is your closest option, if it were to have dry skin, it could really mess with greninja who aim to scald archeops, azumarill who try to aqua jet, as well as other scald / aqua jet / hydro pump / waterfall users. Gyarados is worth mentioning too. Heliolisk also resists that bullet punch, although its bulk in regards to taking the obvious scizor one, isss questionable.

Tek said:

Ah yes, Steel also. But Quick Guard Archeops doesn't struggle with Bullet Punch anything heehee. My answer to Metagross, Scizor, and Lucario is Delphox.

Thanks for the links! I'm sure there's a lot of good stuff in there. But perhaps not divine writ :P

Click to expand...

I've been doing some thinking and you could consider Volcarona over Delphox. It's stronger and it can boost itself up with Quiver Dance, though it's more vulnerable to Rock Slide:
-Quiver Dance
-Bug Buzz
-Heat Wave
-Protect
Nature: Modest
EVs: 4 Def/252 SAtk/252 Spe
Item: Charti Berry/Lum Berry

or
-Overheat
-Bug Buzz
-Rage Powder
-Protect
Nature: Bold
EVs: 252 HP/204 Def/52 SAtk
Item: Rocky Helmet/Sitrus Berry
Ability: Flame Body

Polar Spectrum said:

I've actually tried to set a battle up with you on 3DS several times to demonstrate some doubles strategies and tactics you don't seem familiar with - but you never respond :c It's like you don't want to put any of this into practice, so much as just talk about it.

Can we get a match in? I can bring an ally switch user or two to demonstrate how to effectively use it.

Tek, your Archeops having Ally Switch would be more beneficial however - if you had something that had the opposite weaknesses/resistances of it, or a bit more bulk. Heliolisk is your closest option, if it were to have dry skin, it could really mess with greninja who aim to scald archeops, azumarill who try to aqua jet, as well as other scald / aqua jet / hydro pump / waterfall users. Gyarados is worth mentioning too. Heliolisk also resists that bullet punch, although its bulk in regards to taking the obvious scizor one, isss questionable.

Click to expand...

I've seen it work in our battle, but I'm not an high skill player. As I had known you would be spamming it the battle it would have end faster. But hey, you didn't expect Trick Room on Gallade -.-

Don't know if it was already clear that halving the attack stat is not 140 -> 70. You do know that it works the same with Swords Dance / Agility etc?
For example Mega Amphaross has 45 speed. After an agility boost it will be 90 right? Wrong.
It checks his current stats. So at lvl 50 it will look like this:
252 Spe - Timid Nature will give 106 Speed.
After 1 Agility boost it will have 212 Speed.

Greninja has 122 Speed.
252 Spe - Timid Nature Greninja has 191 Speed.

So Ampharos will outspeed Greninja after 1 Agility boost. See the difference?
The same works with Defeatist it will not half it Base Attack but the attack stat.

And we are not here to burn you down, we are here to give you advice.
And I know bringing niche pokémon is great, but don't expect them beating the VGC teams that bring Mega Kangamama, Landorus, Bisharp and all the hyped OU pokémon without a decent strategy.
You saw the Choice Scarf Soak Lanturn strat? Completly unexpected but effective. Ally Switch is not a strat on it's own.

^ I know there's at least 5 people in this BTB section that have seen Ally Switch used effectively. Tek if you want to see it used - or test your Archeops using it in battle, lemme know. Platinum, if you would like to see it used, again - I'm more than willing to demonstrate for you. If you'd like to just continue talking about it in light of your lack of experience with it though, that's fine as well I suppose.

Volcarona's a very good option for VGC despite the prevelance of rock slide however. It's got disruption, powerful stabs and setup potential, and a strong stab spread move with potential burning. Only downside is really, dem rock slides.

Polar Spectrum said:

^ I know there's at least 5 people in this BTB section that have seen Ally Switch used effectively. Tek if you want to see it used - or test your Archeops using it in battle, lemme know. Platinum, if you would like to see it used, again - I'm more than willing to demonstrate for you. If you'd like to just continue talking about it in light of your lack of experience with it though, that's fine as well I suppose.

Volcarona's a very good option for VGC despite the prevelance of rock slide however. It's got disruption, powerful stabs and setup potential, and a strong stab spread move with potential burning. Only downside is really, dem rock slides.

Click to expand...

I disagree with Volcarona being a good option for Rage Powder support. Talonflame KO's it with a Brave Bird and can't be burned with Flame Body. I would take an Lucario with Follow me with max SpD investments and max HP over Volcarona. But Lucario can't take earthquakes it can with an Shuca Berry however. But than it will get OKO'd by Flare Blitz from Talonflame. Anywho: Volcarona, Amoonguss and Lucario are all really bad against Talonflame. Togekiss and Clefable are the only redirectors that have worked for me against Talonflame. But everyone has a different strat ofcourse.

Off topic : Lucario with Aromatisse for Trick Room set up is godly by the way :)

Okay guys I made some small changes to start with and the team is performing noticeably better. Thanks again for the help y'all :]

Changes made: Archeops now has Endeavor and Quick Guard alongside Head Smash and Ally Switch. Swapped the Leftovers for Micle Berry, dunno if I want that or Liechi Berry Weakness Policy. I re-bred Heliolisk to be Timid so that he outruns Mega Kang, and he has Protect instead of Hyper Beam. Lopunny has Protect instead of Thunder Wave. Mismagius has Shadow Ball instead of Hex.

Some observations: Glare is really messing with opponents and making Hex tempting once more. Assault Vest Mismagius survives Greninja's Hydro Pump and attack form Aegis' Shadow Ball, but dies to Sucker Punch without support from Archeops' Quick Guard. Dry Skin on Heliolisk could combo well with a Scald or Aqua Jet meant for Archeops, but sunny conditions will break the Focus Sash.

I can deal fairly well with Kang, Talonflame, Aegislash, Zard Y, Lando, Gardevoir. Haven't tested much against Azumarill or Politoed. Garchomp is sometimes a problem, haven't met up with Dragonite, Salamence, or Altaria yet. Bisharp really worries me.

I've uploaded a replay from the VS Recorder for anyone who wants to see the team in action; I went up against Crobat, Greninja, Garchomp, and Mega Kang. The code is NY4G-WWWW-WWXM-DK76. I'll leave the vid up until Monday, maybe longer.

P.S. I thought for sure that Crobat was gonna Brave Bird.