Yoshikko
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They should at least be charged with emotional neglect and abuse. Period. And it's no question that that lead to her death.
Trans teen commits suicide after conversion therapy
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They should at least be charged with emotional neglect and abuse. Period. And it's no question that that lead to her death.
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That immediately came to mind. Parents should not be forcing their sexuality or religious ideals to their children. Their children should have the freedom to believe what they want to believe. It's a shame that this happened and it sickens me that parents such as they still exist.
"Lead to her death" is quite a sticky phrase. Suicide is not an inevitable outcome for transgender children with religious parents that reject their gender identity. Let's consider her parents' actions, at least some of which is detailed in the Rolling Stone article. They took her to Christian therapists, took her out of school, and banned her internet for a time. I don't think those actions are very controversial. Her death was unfortunate and her emotional state was fragile, but I hesitate to describe their actions as excessive, even though they were inappropriate.
If they need a sentence it's not jail time but "community service" aka rehabilitation.
Yoshikko
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Everything you said there just proves my point.
Also did you just say you think socially isolating her and sending her to a conversion therapist is "not very controversial"?? If so then I'm already done lol.
Also, did people questioning this even read her OWN suicide note? It literally says how her parents made her feel and how they treated her and what eventually drove her. How can you even argue that.
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How?
I'm not really sure if her parents were aware of that though. They were doing what they thought was best, as ignorant as that is. It sounds like there wasn't enough communication going on and that was the key issue.
Please don't take this literally, but this poem illustrates what I mean by how less serious mistakes can blow up into very serious situations:
Yoshikko
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It doesn't matter whether they were aware of it or not. They were aware of not accepting their daughter the way she was and that is enough. Stop trying to justify their ignorance. Them doing what they thought was best is exactly what the problem is.
We're all saying exactly the same thing, but interpreting it differently.
It doesn't really matter if they were ignorant or not. Plus, this isn't really a situation in which communication is even possible. Leelah told them what she wanted multiple times, and they denied her multiple times. I can't say whether she ever said "I'm going to kill myself." to them or not, but it sounds like she was quite clear with them overall.
As much as I despise the parents for driving their transgendered daughter to suicide, I think they are not guilty of murder.
Murder implies that the parents had malicious intents to kill her. Even though the parents' idea of secluding their child and giving her religious treatments despite her reluctance was deeply flawed, they genuinely thought that it was going to help her become a person that they wanted their child to be. They were delusional and uneducated, but that doesn't mean they committed murder.
Sure it matters. First of all, I doubt that there's ever a time in which communication is impossible. It's not just so simple a matter of telling people what you want multiple times and then dealing with the aftermath - taking from my personal experience, if that's what I did, I'd still have a terrible relationship with my parents and probably wouldn't still be with my girlfriend.
I think it's difficult to say that she was clear with her parents when they mention in an interview that they encountered the name Leela for the first time reading her suicide note. I'm going to assume that they were genuine about this bit.
Furthermore, they maintain that they loved their daughter. That's why I think communication failure is at the core of this. How else do you hurt somebody you love? I think the whole family needed some intense therapy and perhaps an intervention from community members but unfortunately those actions were not taken.
Her parents communication block comes from their religious bias. But that's as far as it goes. Things like you're going to hell, not a real girl - her parents actually believed that. I mean, it's difficult for me to explain it because I don't believe in any of those things at all, but I suppose that the threat of eternal damnation is very real to them. Based on how they were outside of their religiously motivated intolerance (in professing to love her, not saying insulting things outside of a religious context), I think it would be reasonable to believe that things would have turned out for the better had everybody sit down with an expert and sort everything out. Perhaps you would begin by setting out some ground rules (things not to say) and over an extended period of time work on embracing their daughter.
I read her reddit post from two months back and it seemed that she almost made it. She sounds really smart and reasonable and kind for a 17 year old lol. She got everything right (imo) except for the part when she says that she would tell somebody about it except for the fact that what her parents are doing is not illegal. I wish somebody could have convinced her that a problem she has doesn't need to be illegal to have an intervention. It's a shame that she got pushed over the edge.
sauce: https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/2km6yt/is_this_considered_abuse/?sort=old
Sloan Kettering
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Depends on the situation, really. Sending dangerous people to prison is more to just keep them off the street. Most people just look at it as retribution. In reality, it's just a way to show other people not to break the law.
Why should anyone care if some child abusers feel bitter?
You have the right to do so, if that's what you want, but don't expect many people outside of the religious right to be sympathetic to your cause.
It goes beyond a subjective idea of morality when the actions of one person infringes upon the rights of another.
Doing better involves helping young people like Leelah escape abusive parents.
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Why should conservatives give a damn what you think?
Nothing goes beyond subjectivity because your determination of good and evil is subjective. Every law that we have is based on some value structure, which has declared that its values are superior.
Also, don't assume you know what party I affiliate with. It should be clear that my values don't align with any established system. Evolution will, in time, render all thought systems out of date.
Until we are all ignorant. Communication is only impossible when we refuse to acknowledge any possiblity of error in judgement. I don't have all the answers, but I can at least acknowledge that fact. No current value system can resolve this conflict. Therefore, a new value structure must take dominance until something better comes along.
I really don't think these parents belong in a prison. What they need is communication, education, and understanding.
Because most parents do something "abusive" to their child every now and then. That's what parenting is, basically - parents can act on behalf of the child and the child isn't always going to like their parents' actions. Parents are under no obligation to accept everything their child does. There is a line between shitty parenting and abuse.
I'm sympathetic to his ideas because they are reasonable, and I am outside of the religious right, let alone religious anything.
Whether one person is infringing on the rights of another is subjective, and whether that person has the right to infringe on rights of another is also subjective. There has been, for a long time, great debate in the subjectivity/objectivity of morality so let's not just handwave that all away as if morality is as crystal clear as the half-life of a uranium atom.
Escape? To where? The actions of the parents point to the fact that they were otherwise caring people, outside of their religious biases. They were not, to put it this way, "bad people" who do things out of malice. Escape and separation should not be the first course of action, not when communication can be tried. We have therapists for a reason. And just because the parents sent Leela to poor therapists does not reflect that therapists cannot have helped their family situation at all. It is a pity nothing more was done when this situation, in my mind, was avoidable.
Corvus of the Black Night
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You know, the accusations thrown at Tek highlights a bigger and far more worrisome problem - the concept that somehow, some way, some people are more "morally just" than others. The end results are a disturbing trend.
Tek has repeatedly stated that he does not support the parents, that he rather wants to observe other perspectives on the issue. Most of his posts have little to do with Leelah's case in particular but are observations on people's behaviour regarding this and similar cases. If you are going to repeatedly misrepresent his opinions, arguments and make assumptions about him, me, or anyone else on this forum, you are not interested in discussion but rather demonization. Calling him "conservative" because he isn't continue to fuel your echo chamber of rage is the most recent blow to his word. This is honestly disturbing because it's very clear that either his posts are not being read at all past the first paragraph due to objecting content or being interpreted disjointedly, looking at the trees in the forest.
Tek brought up a really interesting point that I think a lot of people are failing to see here in their urge to dig dirt on other people in the thread and seek out individuals they want to label as "transphobic". He pointed out that other perspectives must be acknowledged or else we are just as bad as the oppressors.
And he's right.
You cannot simply just destroy everything that you don't like or don't agree with. That is just as oppressive as the individuals who try to limit in other directions. Regardless of whether or not you want to interpret it as such isn't important. If you are making arbitrary rules about how others should live their lives, you are just as guilty.
An important thing to understand in this case is what the motive of the parents were. Because they were technically trying to "heal" their child, it's pretty clear that what they were doing, regardless of how evil other people may see it, is not an act of murder, because it is not an intentional killing.
Of course this would be a prime example of negligence, perhaps even child abuse. Being ignorant is not an excuse and is most certainly not a "get out of jail free" card. But you cannot expect to be "morally superior" if you are, yourself, doing whatever it takes to silence those with whom you disagree. And I'm not talking about the parents - I think we can all agree that their actions, at minimum, are those based in gross negligence - I'm talking about fellow individuals in this thread.
These sort of close minded attitudes are what help continue to perpetuate negative attitudes towards minorities like LGBT in general. You are continuing to harm those who need it most. Promote integration of ideas instead of trying to burn everything you don't agree with in sight. Try to understand why people feel whatever way that they do regarding a situation, and if they disagree with you, explain to them why you think they're wrong.
I shouldn't have to be explaining this but clearly people in this section of the forum are incapable of acting on it.
I just noticed this. She was upset because she was denied transition surgery, correct? If I recall correctly, that doesn't come cheap, regardless of what the parents think. It's pretty unreasonable to expect someone to go and pay for such an expensive surgery, which isn't currently covered by many medical plans, which has no perceived benefit to those who don't understand it. Even then, most people would not be willing to cover such a surgery at that price point unless it was completely life saving/changing (such as cancer treatments or treatments for blindness/deafness). Personally I would probably not fork over that amount of cash for my kid for something that can be managed in other ways - and I'd be nervous about physically altering my kid for something that basically is a solution to a mental disconnect.
I know that Leelah's parents had other problems and I'm not undermining those, but I think it's pretty important to point this out.
Tek has repeatedly stated that he does not support the parents, that he rather wants to observe other perspectives on the issue. Most of his posts have little to do with Leelah's case in particular but are observations on people's behaviour regarding this and similar cases. If you are going to repeatedly misrepresent his opinions, arguments and make assumptions about him, me, or anyone else on this forum, you are not interested in discussion but rather demonization. Calling him "conservative" because he isn't continue to fuel your echo chamber of rage is the most recent blow to his word. This is honestly disturbing because it's very clear that either his posts are not being read at all past the first paragraph due to objecting content or being interpreted disjointedly, looking at the trees in the forest.
Tek brought up a really interesting point that I think a lot of people are failing to see here in their urge to dig dirt on other people in the thread and seek out individuals they want to label as "transphobic". He pointed out that other perspectives must be acknowledged or else we are just as bad as the oppressors.
And he's right.
You cannot simply just destroy everything that you don't like or don't agree with. That is just as oppressive as the individuals who try to limit in other directions. Regardless of whether or not you want to interpret it as such isn't important. If you are making arbitrary rules about how others should live their lives, you are just as guilty.
An important thing to understand in this case is what the motive of the parents were. Because they were technically trying to "heal" their child, it's pretty clear that what they were doing, regardless of how evil other people may see it, is not an act of murder, because it is not an intentional killing.
Of course this would be a prime example of negligence, perhaps even child abuse. Being ignorant is not an excuse and is most certainly not a "get out of jail free" card. But you cannot expect to be "morally superior" if you are, yourself, doing whatever it takes to silence those with whom you disagree. And I'm not talking about the parents - I think we can all agree that their actions, at minimum, are those based in gross negligence - I'm talking about fellow individuals in this thread.
These sort of close minded attitudes are what help continue to perpetuate negative attitudes towards minorities like LGBT in general. You are continuing to harm those who need it most. Promote integration of ideas instead of trying to burn everything you don't agree with in sight. Try to understand why people feel whatever way that they do regarding a situation, and if they disagree with you, explain to them why you think they're wrong.
I shouldn't have to be explaining this but clearly people in this section of the forum are incapable of acting on it.
I just noticed this. She was upset because she was denied transition surgery, correct? If I recall correctly, that doesn't come cheap, regardless of what the parents think. It's pretty unreasonable to expect someone to go and pay for such an expensive surgery, which isn't currently covered by many medical plans, which has no perceived benefit to those who don't understand it. Even then, most people would not be willing to cover such a surgery at that price point unless it was completely life saving/changing (such as cancer treatments or treatments for blindness/deafness). Personally I would probably not fork over that amount of cash for my kid for something that can be managed in other ways - and I'd be nervous about physically altering my kid for something that basically is a solution to a mental disconnect.
I know that Leelah's parents had other problems and I'm not undermining those, but I think it's pretty important to point this out.
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That's not actually the case. She was denied transition entirely. The surgery is a completely optional thing that she wouldn't get for at least a year or two after completing her transition (So probably the 19-20 range at the earliest). In fact, most trans people don't get surgery at all. I don't plan to, and it's free for me because of my insurance.
Transitioning isn't actually that expensive, plus in many places insurance covers everything, including reassignment surgery, as is the case for me. Had she gone through the proper channels, she could have transitioned essentially for free, aside from the cost of clothes (which can be gotten for free through LGBT community centers in a lot of cities) and makeup (which isn't necessary for everyone to pass post-HRT, unless they're exceptionally masculine looking, which she wasn't).
If she wasn't able to get insurance to cover everything, she still had several options. Some cities have trans specific clinics that will do all of this stuff for free, and are funded through outside donations. If that wasn't available to her, worst case scenario would be between $0-200 per therapist visit (it's often times easy to find these for free or very cheap if you truly have no money), until they're convinced that she genuinely is trans, then $100-200 per doctor's visit, usually once every 3-6 months, and $100-200 for bloodwork to make sure her hormone levels are properly balanced, also usually every 3-6 months. Then, her medication would generally cost roughly somewhere in the $50 range each month. And of course, she would be buying clothes as a boy anyway, so there's really no change in cost there, and makeup isn't particularly expensive.
So best case scenario, her parents would pay $0. Worst case, they'd pay roughly $100 to $400 per month, probably closer to the lower end, unless they splurged on a really expensive therapist. (Edit: And it's always possible, though somewhat dangerous, to self medicate, in which you'd be paying the $50 per month for the medication without a prescription, and nothing else. She honestly could have just gotten a part time job and done that on her own time without telling her parents.)
Btw, I actually agree with the majority of what you and tek are saying here, but I feel like it's gone beyond the scope of this thread, and shouldn't be so closely tied to Leelah's specific case. Perhaps a separate thread is in order?
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Corvus of the Black Night
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Thanks for the explanation. I thought in the other thread that it was well upwards towards 10,000$. I guess I would still be hesitant but that's only because of my own escapades in gender identity - I always say, give yourself a year or two to make sure you know that's what you want. Leelah likely knew at this point though.
Back to Leelah, I guess my two cents as someone who has an identity disorder where you can't get surgery for "transitioning", is that these sorts of things ARE manageable but I've noticed that I tend to require more management as I've gotten older. Before I was able to bury those feelings but nowadays I do need to physically act on them in order for them to stay manageable. Where we differ most notably is that she clearly told her parents about it, I never had the guts to divulge this information. If I could have given her any of my advice, it would be to expose yourself to this sort of need in private as much as possible so that you don't need to act in public, but I personally understand that the frustration associated with a misaligned identity and how it grows over time, so maybe this wasn't an option in her case. I personally found that artwork, drawings, symbolism, ect. helps a lot with management.
My caution may be attributed to the nature of my own condition though.
Back to Leelah, I guess my two cents as someone who has an identity disorder where you can't get surgery for "transitioning", is that these sorts of things ARE manageable but I've noticed that I tend to require more management as I've gotten older. Before I was able to bury those feelings but nowadays I do need to physically act on them in order for them to stay manageable. Where we differ most notably is that she clearly told her parents about it, I never had the guts to divulge this information. If I could have given her any of my advice, it would be to expose yourself to this sort of need in private as much as possible so that you don't need to act in public, but I personally understand that the frustration associated with a misaligned identity and how it grows over time, so maybe this wasn't an option in her case. I personally found that artwork, drawings, symbolism, ect. helps a lot with management.
My caution may be attributed to the nature of my own condition though.
Well, technically if you went all out with all the fancy surgeries and whatnot, you could probably spend upwards of $100,000 or more, but it's really not necessary.
I know what you mean about the feeling getting stronger as you get older. When I was younger it was "girls are neat", then it was "if i could go back and start over as a real girl i would", then "if the transition wasn't so difficult, I'd do it", and now it's just "fuck it I'm a girl". In my case, I'm lucky enough to be able to make that decision. I'd imagine being in a situation where you can't just choose to fix it would be very difficult to cope with.
Corvus of the Black Night
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It's quite intriguing since it requires that people ask many ethical questions that they normally wouldn't be asking. I think about them quite a bit.
I don't know if this is like anything you personally experience, but one of the biggest conflicts is the knowledge of the consequences of any possible action done to relieve the feelings of problems. If I did my "transition" today, I would be left with massive consequences, irreversible consequences, that would change my life forever. This, combined with the furious stress of actually wanting to do that to yourself to make the urge go away makes it intense. Thankfully, most of the time it's not as bad. Usually just thoughts or feelings.
They can be managed by role playing various things and using symbols and things like that to express and manage the feelings. Also, being with and being accepted by people who have your "identity" but irl helps too.
I thought I was going crazy as a kid, like I would always ask "how did that happen", "why?" "what was the nature of that incident?" and I knew why I asked those questions. It was scary because you know your curiosity was based in something you wanted to be that held a tremendous sacrifice.
I've heard that those who just go and "do it" feel better and the symptoms are relieved but "doing it" holds such tremendous consequences that the thought of it is just crazy.
I guess I connect with Leelah because I know that my parents would never accept my problem. They would probably see it as me going crazy or something, and I was terrified of that. I feel bad though, my parents aren't horrible people. I know that if I did kill myself because of my problem they would certainly not act like how Leelah's did.
I mean I see transition surgery and I think, "well shit that's scary. I mean, I know it makes so many other people's lives better but damn, that's something you can't take back".
I don't know if this is like anything you personally experience, but one of the biggest conflicts is the knowledge of the consequences of any possible action done to relieve the feelings of problems. If I did my "transition" today, I would be left with massive consequences, irreversible consequences, that would change my life forever. This, combined with the furious stress of actually wanting to do that to yourself to make the urge go away makes it intense. Thankfully, most of the time it's not as bad. Usually just thoughts or feelings.
They can be managed by role playing various things and using symbols and things like that to express and manage the feelings. Also, being with and being accepted by people who have your "identity" but irl helps too.
I thought I was going crazy as a kid, like I would always ask "how did that happen", "why?" "what was the nature of that incident?" and I knew why I asked those questions. It was scary because you know your curiosity was based in something you wanted to be that held a tremendous sacrifice.
I've heard that those who just go and "do it" feel better and the symptoms are relieved but "doing it" holds such tremendous consequences that the thought of it is just crazy.
I guess I connect with Leelah because I know that my parents would never accept my problem. They would probably see it as me going crazy or something, and I was terrified of that. I feel bad though, my parents aren't horrible people. I know that if I did kill myself because of my problem they would certainly not act like how Leelah's did.
I mean I see transition surgery and I think, "well shit that's scary. I mean, I know it makes so many other people's lives better but damn, that's something you can't take back".
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Hmm. We have gotten a bit 'meta' on the event.
But then again, these broad/high-level generalizations aren't complete unless they're applied to specific situations. Most of us probably can't directly do anything to heal the brokenness in this situation. But the principles we're discussing will surely be useful if they're as fundamental as they seem to be.
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Sloan Kettering
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Confused as to what this is referring to.
Sure it does; government and law structures (no matter how flawed) are systems to protect society as a whole. When you break it down to a basic level, when one human takes away the rights of another, injures another or so on, they are attacking society itself. When one person
Didn't suggest I did. I said that you shouldn't expect many people to be sympathetic with the parents unless they're the kind of nutjobs that agree with what they did. That's not your perogative or anything, but that's still the kind of support you would get when trying to garner a more sympathetic view for the parents.
Once again, confused as to what this is referencing. I agree that all value systems enforced around the world are completely broken.
The reason I disagree with this is because their daughter attempted to do so. She attempted to explain who she was and they still just ignored it and forced her into these situations. They had all the same resources and more as any one of us, they refused to face the truth, instead comforting themselves in spiritual nonsense at the expense of their daughter. I'm not sure about prison myself; it's a pretty broken system of punishment that basically does nothing other than separate the most dangerous of criminals from normal human beings. These parents can be removed from the people they endanger by placing their children in a better home.
There's also a line between not letting your kid go to parties and psychologically tormenting your children to the point of suicide.
I did say unlikely, sympathizers to her parents that aren't just transphobic assholes will be few and far between.
No, the whole philosophy can only apply to stuff such as speech. It's absolutely objective when you are forced into an objectively harmful situation without consent.
It can range from adoption or just community outreach programs to let her know that people care and that she is a normal human being. Communication WAS tried, she tried to explain it to her parents but they just ignored any kind of real psychological source and went straight to religious mumbo jumbo. Regardless of intentions, modern day parents that eschew scientific advancement for psuedo-science and superstition are a great danger to their children. They don't have to WANT to hurt them to do so. It shouldn't be the intent that decided whether or not we pull a child out of a harmful situation.
I do concede that it would take a perfect world to have a place to put all the endangered children in a given area and that just tossing children in some orphanage can be quite traumatizing in its own right.
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"Such dangerous mindsets should not be respected, pitied, or tolerated."
"I don't care about respecting the way other people think."
"Why should anyone care if some child abusers feel bitter?"
I'm trying to point out that you're guilty of the exact attitude that appears caused to have caused this tragedy: insisting that your view alone is the correct one. I'm suggesting that we instead acknowledge that all views have some degree of truth and some degree of flaw, in different proportions according to how much of the world is defined as 'self' instead of 'other'.