Where now?

With the recent legalisation of same-sex marriage in America as discussed at length in this thread, where do you think the LGBT movement will go next? What do you think should be the next course of action in the path to liberation? What criticisms do you have in general?

This thread will most likely center around America, but I implore those outside of the US to share thoughts relevant to their country as well.

I'd really want for same-sex marriage to be approved in Germany. It's especially ridiculous because one of the two parties in the Government coalition is for it, a similar "civil union" thing exists already, there is 70% popular support for it and Chancellor Merkel herself is in favour, but she's afraid to anger her (minoritary) religious base by taking the step to fully enshrine it with the name of marriage. Absurd.

Ivysaur said:

I'd really want for same-sex marriage to be approved in Germany. It's especially ridiculous because one of the two parties in the Government coalition is for it, a similar "civil union" thing exists already, there is 70% popular support for it and Chancellor Merkel herself is in favour, but she's afraid to anger her (minoritary) religious base by taking the step to fully enshrine it with the name of marriage. Absurd.

Click to expand...

We've had similar people in america insisting that they only allow SSMs under the name of "Civil Union" as well; but we all know what conservative ploy this is. They want to differentiate it so religious people can discriminate against it more easily. And yes; it is ridiculous, whether it's germany or the USA.

Personally I'd like to see america focus immediately on transgender and queer rights; now that we've achieved the main victory of SSM, and have made it inescapably clear that the religious right has been ignorantly denying the rights of others for arbitrary reasons since this nation's founding and we need to put a stop to it.

Well, same-sex couples in America are now allowed to enact income sharing contracts, so I guess what we need to do next is decide how exactly same-sex divorces are going to be handled; I'm going to assume in a similar fashion as opposite-sex divorces.

Interesting article on fox news:

http://nation.foxnews.com/2015/06/2...rriage-ruling-will-lead-christian-persecution

Is the persecution of christians inevitable? Opinion?

Regarding queer rights in America, I think legislatively we ought to be focusing on anti-discrimination in other areas such as housing and employment. On a more practical level we should put more money toward education (to help the young peoples know more about and understand their fellows) and the kind of community building that helps with poverty, homelessness, and mental health. You know, get the help where it's needed.

For the world outside America, all the developed countries really ought to have laws for basic protection of sexual and gender minorities, up to and including marriage. If a place like America can do it (something of a minor miracle) other non-totalitarian governments should be able to as well.

BadSheep said:

Interesting article on fox news:

http://nation.foxnews.com/2015/06/2...rriage-ruling-will-lead-christian-persecution

Is the persecution of christians inevitable? Opinion?

Click to expand...

Framing political losses as 'religious persecution' is nothing more than the Christian right-wing trying to use the persecution myth for further political advantage.

I'm really happy that the US is now for SSMs. Being half-American/British myself and currently living in UK, if i was to get married to my partner i would have done it here. But now it's legal in every state in the US i'd actually go home and get married. Mainly because i'd have my entire family there. I live in Utah when i'm in the States but my family is in Texas, which was obvs, one of the last few states that had constitutional/statutory bans on same-sex marriage, or 'Defence of Marriage' acts. Now that the supreme court has ruled it legal for same-sex marriage in every state i will now, eventually get married surrounded by family in the state i was raised.

As for what i'd like to see happen now, is to take the fight to any country that has laws to deal with homosexual people and deal with them. As Esper said, these countries should be having laws in place to protect their lgbt communities not persecuting them. The politicians and/or rulers of these countries can't really understand what humanity is if they don't change.

BadSheep said:

Interesting article on fox news:

http://nation.foxnews.com/2015/06/2...rriage-ruling-will-lead-christian-persecution

Is the persecution of christians inevitable? Opinion?

Click to expand...

Next Thursday will be the 10th anniversary of the passing of the SSM law in Spain and not a single priest or Christian has been persecuted for his or her beliefs. The only thing that has happened is that about 30k same-sex couples have married, despite the Church's protests against them.

Despite what Fox News pundits think, losing a political battle in a democratic country does not necessarily mean you will now become persecuted, the way homosexuals used to be.

I meant to say this before, but one thing we should also do in America is not forget that all these court battles (and the time and money they cost) could have been avoided if our government representatives would have just allowed marriage equality. It could have been done quickly and painlessly. We shouldn't forget who was against it and who still is against it so that when elections come around we'll know which of them are ones worth supporting and which aren't. I know it seems pretty obvious, but voters have notoriously short term memories.

I'm okay with same-sex marriages as long as people are not forced to marry those couples. Someone has mentioned that by giving certain people rights to marry as they see fit, we can't be taking the right of others to refuse service as they see fit (of course, not crossing the line of discrimination - but this should have been an issue solved decades ago, right?).

I have heard a few arguments to LGBT being "wrong," bringing up the Bible and what not. Claiming that the bible says LGBT is a sin, but it also says that divorce is a sin - yet we see it every day (much much more accepted today). "Oh, a divorce? pfft, I've seen too many of those and it doesn't bother me anymore." I believe that same-sex marriages are going to be the same. It's the hype now, but give it a few years and it wouldn't be so amazing. The problem is that, people will always find things they can't do to cry about so that they can do it. Same thing with buying things, "Oh, I have to buy that! I'll be happy as long as I have it!" Then after a while, you want something else, the hype dies. Oh, getting off-track. The other thing is Christ loves everyone. Right, he loves the people, not the sin. You love/would love your children every day, but you don't like them every day. You love your partner/spouse every day, but you might not like them every day.

I honestly can't think of what's next. We still have the gun control laws up in the air. Though I do have to agree with some of the previous posts, there are much better topics at hand to tackle than, for a lack of a better word, vanity. Same-sex couldn't marry, so they want to. Opposite-sex can marry, but they don't feel they need to. It's like living next to Disney World and never gone because it's always there versus people that want to go, because they can't go. When you have it, you don't want it.

Regumika said:

I'm okay with same-sex marriages as long as people are not forced to marry those couples. Someone has mentioned that by giving certain people rights to marry as they see fit, we can't be taking the right of others to refuse service as they see fit (of course, not crossing the line of discrimination - but this should have been an issue solved decades ago, right?).

Click to expand...

Too bad. A person such as a county clerk, cannot refuse service along the lines that it violates their religious views because they're executing an action of the state/city/municipalitiy, i.e, the awarding of the marriage license to the gay couple, and to not do so along religious lines/personal belief is discriminatory, among other things. We do not reside in a theocracy, so the "religious exemption" argument in this circumstance holds very little weight and is not an expression of speech either. What the bible says is irrelevant to what the interpretation of the law actually is under the ruling in Obergefell v Hodges and what the 14th Amendment has to say in this context.

Regumika said:

The problem is that, people will always find things they can't do to cry about so that they can do it. Same thing with buying things, "Oh, I have to buy that! I'll be happy as long as I have it!" Then after a while, you want something else, the hype dies.

Click to expand...

Somehow I don't think that LGBT people having anger over legislative or societal injustice can be equated to, idk, a needy kid wanting toys or whatever.

Make gay divorce illegal. See how long they last. *evil laugh*

Found this on reddit.

God said:

With the recent legalisation of same-sex marriage in America as discussed at length in this thread, where do you think the LGBT movement will go next?

Click to expand...

Who knows? I guess they'll bring up whatever issues they feel are important and people will discuss their merits on an individual basis.

I worry that they might start trying to attack people who have negative attitudes toward LGBTs. That's just going to lead those people to believe themselves victims and further radicalize them. If the rift between LGBTs and the "traditionalists" (for lack of a better term) is going to be healed, it's going to be through positive interactions demonstrating normalcy, not through a hostile campaign to demonize the "traditionalists."

What do you think should be the next course of action in the path to liberation?

Click to expand...

Liberation from what? It sounds like this ruling has finally granted homosexuals equal legal protections. That's fantastic, I think everyone deserves fair treatment under the law. So what exactly do you think they need to be "liberated" from?

What criticisms do you have in general?

Click to expand...

I worry the movement may radicalize and cause more problems than it solves, especially when you're using words like "liberation" to describe where you think the movement should go next.

twocows said:

Liberation from what? It sounds like this ruling has finally granted homosexuals equal legal protections. That's fantastic, I think everyone deserves fair treatment under the law. So what exactly do you think they need to be "liberated" from?

Click to expand...

Liberation from discrimination and oppression, I assume. Marriage equality won't make homophobia go away and homophobic/transphobic related cases of bullying and assault are still very much a thing. There's also a lack of protection for discrimination towards LGBT+ individuals in the workplace in many states, and there's still a multitude of rights trans people are being denied.

I worry the movement may radicalize and cause more problems than it solves, especially when you're using words like "liberation" to describe where you think the movement should go next.

Click to expand...

I don't think there is any cause for worry about something like this.

twocows said:

I worry that they might start trying to attack people who have negative attitudes toward LGBTs. That's just going to lead those people to believe themselves victims and further radicalize them. If the rift between LGBTs and the "traditionalists" (for lack of a better term) is going to be healed, it's going to be through positive interactions demonstrating normalcy, not through a hostile campaign to demonize the "traditionalists."

Click to expand...

I don't know of any instances of queer people attacking straight people (which would certainly make the right-wing news media). Unless you mean like verbal attacks over the internet. That, I'm sure, has happened already, as every group and position has its radicals and the internet being what it is. To my knowledge though the opposite still happens. There are still instances of, particularly, trans people being attacked. To say nothing of things happening in non-western countries.

I know there has to be mending between progressive and conservative/traditionalist, but as queer people have been and often still are the victims it feels kind of galling to ask queer people to be nice and normal and polite. I know it's about being the better person, trying to do what's right, and thinking about the future, but if, say, a gay person feels bitter still I'm not gonna fault them for that.

I don't think radicalizing is likely to happen. It's been less and less radical as time goes by. Pride parades were once used to protest and commemorate people who died from AIDS, now it's a big party with corporate sponsors.

Esper.. Are you serious? The LGBT's have already made a mockery of Jesus Christ as well as turned the AMERICAN FLAG into an GAY PRIDE flag. Do you not see a problem with that? They're taking this to the limits and crossing the line.

What's actually starting to piss me off....The "why is your cookie bigger then my cookie" pissing contest that everyone seems to be having now. What is everyone 5 years old?! The country does a few grand gestures for equality and gay pride and everyone is over here like "where is my 15 minutes of fame for my pride and my beliefs?" REALLY people?? Put your penises away. American Pride is constantly celebrated and expressed in this country. Can't people just be happy that we are finally practicing a little of that acceptance and diversity and FREEDOM that we as Americans so proudly claim we have?! It's not about laying down and agreeing with it. It's about accepting that we are all different. That is the pride we should all have. That we can all be different and it's OKAY. This is not a contest. It's life. Live and let live. If we were all the same this world would suck.

So with that being said. These LGBT's need to knock it off an accept it. They don't deserve any more than a straight person. They got what they wanted. They have no reason to disrespect religion and America with their gay rights movement.

ShinyUmbreon189 said:

Esper.. Are you serious? The LGBT's have already made a mockery of Jesus Christ as well as turned the AMERICAN FLAG into an GAY PRIDE flag. Do you not see a problem with that? They're taking this to the limits and crossing the line.

What's actually starting to piss me off....The "why is your cookie bigger then my cookie" pissing contest that everyone seems to be having now. What is everyone 5 years old?! The country does a few grand gestures for equality and gay pride and everyone is over here like "where is my 15 minutes of fame for my pride and my beliefs?" REALLY people?? Put your penises away. American Pride is constantly celebrated and expressed in this country. Can't people just be happy that we are finally practicing a little of that acceptance and diversity and FREEDOM that we as Americans so proudly claim we have?! It's not about laying down and agreeing with it. It's about accepting that we are all different. That is the pride we should all have. That we can all be different and it's OKAY. This is not a contest. It's life. Live and let live. If we were all the same this world would suck.

So with that being said. These LGBT's need to knock it off an accept it. They don't deserve any more than a straight person. They got what they wanted. They have no reason to disrespect religion and America with their gay rights movement.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure if I'm supposed to take this post seriously or not, but:

1) LGBT+ people don't want "more" than straight people. That's... dumb. And it reeks of homophobia.

2) Marriage equality is only part of the end goal and most certainly does not solve everything. Like I mentioned in my last post, there's still a wealth of problems faced by the community, particularly by trans people (although judging by your post I can't imagine you're exactly on board with them).

3) LGBT+ people asking for basic rights and calling out social inequalities does not disrespect religion or America (honestly lol at the latter). If you think gay people existing is a mockery of Jesus/religion then... tough shit tbh. Your religious beliefs are personal and society shouldn't bend to accommodate them. LGBT people aren't going to remain complacent in the face of inequality and oppression, and if you can't make peace with that then it's really your problem.


I also have no idea what point you were trying to make with the middle part so I'm not gonna touch that.

I think the people above me have explained my feelings on this, but nonetheless:

twocows said:

Who knows? I guess they'll bring up whatever issues they feel are important and people will discuss their merits on an individual basis.

I worry that they might start trying to attack people who have negative attitudes toward LGBTs. That's just going to lead those people to believe themselves victims and further radicalize them. If the rift between LGBTs and the "traditionalists" (for lack of a better term) is going to be healed, it's going to be through positive interactions demonstrating normalcy, not through a hostile campaign to demonize the "traditionalists."

Click to expand...

While I somewhat agree with the assimilation tactic, the onus shouldn't be on LGBT people to respect those who have oppressive attitudes. Being polite does nothing.

Liberation from what? It sounds like this ruling has finally granted homosexuals equal legal protections. That's fantastic, I think everyone deserves fair treatment under the law. So what exactly do you think they need to be "liberated" from?

Click to expand...

Speaking from a New Zealand perspective, homosexuals and lesbians are more or less now given the same legal rights as everyone else. I'm not aware of any current legislation that prohibits them, and if there is, it will most likely be dealt with by 2016/17. From a cultural perspective, the LGB still have societal hurdles to climb over, but that will happen in time. Where my issue lies is with transgender people, and those I most closely relate to, transgender women. There is almost zero medical and cultural support for transgender people here, a phenomenon echoed throughout many countries where people see same-sex marriage as the pinnacle of the LGBT movement, especially in places where it is coined the 'gay rights movement' instead.
Legal support for transgender people here is also dubious, as there is yet to be a definitive ruling on how gender identity is protected here. All this only continues to add to the higher suicide rate in the LGBT community, particularly those of transgender people. This is on top of NZ already having one of the highest suicide rates in the world.

So, I think there is still a fair bit to go.

I worry the movement may radicalize and cause more problems than it solves, especially when you're using words like "liberation" to describe where you think the movement should go next.

Click to expand...

Well, I mean, it is a civil rights movement, after all. If one feels subjugated, then liberation is the natural term to use.