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[Discussion] Is the Game Development section dying?

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  • I think one of the reasons is because every game feels the same. No matter how complicated you make the plot, no matter how unique you try to make the bad guys... It's still the same 8 gym leaders, beat the villain team and be the best in the world plot that the main Pokemon games have, fakemon even add to that.

    I'm surprised fan games that have original ideas are so rare. Like Digimon Your Digital Dream or Pokemon The Movie Game. Or a sandbox Pokemon game, that would be cool. Or an adventure game that has a plot.

    I have actually scrapped my first game because i realized it was just like every other game. Currently i'm making a PMD styled game. It has mystery dungeons(using the random dungeon generator) and all, but the battle system is from the normal Pokemon games. Hopefully it will feel PMD enough for me to announce it.
     

    Worldslayer608

    ಥдಥ
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  • What?

    There is a reason all of the other spin off Pokémon games don't have sequels and they are slowing down. People like the main franchise enough to push it into 6 generations. I fail to see how fan games following the same formula is repetitive and boring when those are the things people like best about the Pokémon games.
     

    Derxwna Kapsyla

    Derxwna "The Badman" Kapsyla
    437
    Posts
    12
    Years
  • You would be surprised honestly. I've spoken to dozens of people and could get testimonial proof that the repetitive formula of the Main-line Pokemon games has become tedious enough that they are falling out of interest in the main games. They'd be more interested in more spinoffs, such as another Mystery Dungeon game, another Ranger game, another game in the same vein as the Gamecube games.

    The main-games are designed to appeal to the younger crowd, and let's face it, we're no longer the intended demographic. The reason why the series is continuing to thrive is because the younger generation of players is content with the mechanics. That all being said, apparently Pokemon's sales have been declining since Generation 5 when it comes to the younger market, and its getting the majority of its revenue from the market of 20+. However, when the older market is feeling alienated, those sales will drop as well. The link to the post about it can be found here, with an accompanying source on the same link

    Also, the spin-offs definitely aren't slowing down at all. We have a Trozei sequel coming out (Trozei is the oddest game to get a sequel I'd say), not to mention we have that Pikachu Noire-style detective game in development, as well as Pokken Tournament in development. Spin offs keep being developed and getting more unique. The main games won't change because that is their niche: 8 gyms, evil team, pokemon league, etc.

    Game Freak honestly could stand to branch out and make more spin-offs, since they have a whole world they can work with and over 700 pokemon at their disposal to make use of.
     
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    Florio

    Pokemon Crimson Skies Owner
    391
    Posts
    15
    Years
  • I'd love the idea of a community-based game. I mean, 4chan did it, and they're a hell of a lot less organised than us. I reckon it would have to be an episodic thing, since keeping everything consistent with that many people on board from different places, time zones etc. would be difficult. I still think Game Jams are the way to go actually, even if the last one's outcome wasn't exactly ideal (through no-one's fault, I might add).

    As for the community thing, yes I agree that this place is a lot less buzzy than it was. It's also quite intimidating for newcomers. When I first started posting back in 2011, it was quite tricky navigating an already existing network of well-known developers, and posting about problems you were having often resulted in someone chastising you for not knowing about something basic, or not having checked other discussions for a solution to your problem. Although, to be fair, it becomes frustrating to see a thriving community turn into a place where people ask the same questions over and over again. I've got a crazy amount of respect for you Maruno for keeping this place on-track, what with the release of the latest Essentials engine, as well as maintaining an excellent wiki, and I think we can all do our part to help out. I'd be more than willing to work on some tutorials, or help out on a community project - anything to keep this place the bastion of creative energy that it should be.

    I can agree on the consistency issues. Everyone has a different approach to making maps and if there were a ton of people mapping one game, the inconsistency in maps could look strange or outright bad. But if we were all to work on the Sinnoh Kit and make it an exact replica of 4th gens Sinnoh, then it could very well work, since we would have an outline to follow.

    And also I agree about the other members bugging you about asking questions, though I can't say that I blame them. I feel pretty bad about the fact though that I am basically depending on them to make my game work properly. I do plan to teach myself to script ruby soon though (hopefully it isnt too difficult/time consuming).

    But yeah, I think the Sinnoh Kit would be a great idea and I would be willing to help on it myself, although I do think it should still use 6th Gen battle systems/have new pokemon and megas too (they prob wouldnt be available till post game unless we decided to revamp the story).
     
    1,405
    Posts
    11
    Years
  • What?

    There is a reason all of the other spin off Pokémon games don't have sequels and they are slowing down. People like the main franchise enough to push it into 6 generations. I fail to see how fan games following the same formula is repetitive and boring when those are the things people like best about the Pokémon games.

    Even if they aren't repetitive and boring. If you look at the Game Showcase games you quickly see there is no reason to play 1 game over the other, or play more than 1 game in there because they are all the same thing. Once you play one you play most of them.

    And the reason it's pushed to 6 generations is because Gamefreak is afraid to change the formula, and because each game introduces something new that tries to hide the fact that it is the exact same game you already bought years ago (Gen 2 had 2 regions, Gen 3 had better graphics, Gen 4 had better forme changes and Wifi battling, Gen 5 had animated sprites and Dream World, Gen 6 has 3D battles and Mega Evolution).
     

    Florio

    Pokemon Crimson Skies Owner
    391
    Posts
    15
    Years
  • Even if they aren't repetitive and boring. If you look at the Game Showcase games you quickly see there is no reason to play 1 game over the other, or play more than 1 game in there because they are all the same thing. Once you play one you play most of them.

    And the reason it's pushed to 6 generations is because Gamefreak is afraid to change the formula, and because each game introduces something new that tries to hide the fact that it is the exact same game you already bought years ago (Gen 2 had 2 regions, Gen 3 had better graphics, Gen 4 had better forme changes and Wifi battling, Gen 5 had animated sprites and Dream World, Gen 6 has 3D battles and Mega Evolution).

    Your reasonings make no sense, how would there not be one reason to play one game over another? They all have their own styles, their own maps, their own storyline, just because they follow the same 8 gym outline doesn't mean they won't be unique. That is like saying every food sold in a frozen box tastes the same.

    Gamefreak isn't afraid to change the formula, they are just smart enough to know that people don't like change and the formula that works already is best to stick to. They aren't trying to hide anything, they are expanding on what they already have. I don't think they are ashamed of their game one bit, considering it sells millions of copies upon release.
     

    Worldslayer608

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  • I would not be shocked to see Nintendo and Game Freak begin doing content patches for games in the future, games that still follow the main franchise formula. Small content patches like Delta Episode are plot lines that introduce new Pokémon and characters.

    I think you grotesquely underestimate how many people enjoy playing the same formula with different overarching themes and plots. You can say that it is boring and such but, at the end of the day, you are a small sample size of the consumer - an incredibly small sample size.

    We digress.

    Public projects are all fine and dandy, but my concern is that it may stretch some people thin alongside the fact that most public projects are very poorly organized and it can tend to lead to their collapse. I have seen the Gen 6 Project develop and it has been a complete mess every time someone tries to revive it. There just isn't enough structure in place for people to effectively work on it. Hopefully we are getting the Gen 6 project to a more respectable level of management so that what is contributed can be tracked and compiled without derailing like it has done before.

    As for the Sinnoh Project, I may open it to the public if there is enough people interested in pulling it off. It is mainly mapping and tile creation with some scripting here and there for certain random things that Gen IV had going on. Consistent tile creation is a hard thing to achieve though and that has been my main deterrent. I understand that graphics do not make the game, but I think the project should have consistent tiles. There are a lot of DPPt tiles out there but their stiles vary drastically.
     

    FL

    Pokémon Island Creator
    2,452
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    • Seen yesterday
    What?

    There is a reason all of the other spin off Pokémon games don't have sequels and they are slowing down. People like the main franchise enough to push it into 6 generations. I fail to see how fan games following the same formula is repetitive and boring when those are the things people like best about the Pokémon games.
    I was ready for a reply, but Derxwna Kapsyla gave a nice answer. Quality isn't always equals success, and vice-versa. GSC is one of the most memorable games by the fandom because it is the only one with two regions and 16 GYM Leaders.

    Even if they aren't repetitive and boring. If you look at the Game Showcase games you quickly see there is no reason to play 1 game over the other, or play more than 1 game in there because they are all the same thing. Once you play one you play most of them.
    Please do not take a part for the whole. Some just break the 8 type-themed GYMs+E4 formula like Pokémon Reborn and Pokémon Litharreon, others have a VERY different concept like Digimon Your Digital Dream, Touhoumon and Monster MMORPG.
     
    23,365
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    • She/Her, It/Its
    • Seen today
    It would probably be a good idea if more players joined the discussion, considering they are a part of the community, too. Talking about what to do as a developer is cool and all, but do the players even care?
    I'm a little bit picky, which is why I tend to look at comments of other players, but most of the time they are not really helpful. ^^

    And while I'm not nearly as active here as I probably should be (as a player that is; not really born for game development), I would like to mention two ideas:

    The first one being an online game of some sort. PC has a lot of different services to offer alongside the forums. More specifically: Blogs, Chats, even our own Showdown server
    So why not offer another service, namely a game? It would start as something simplistic, not a huge region with tons of stuff, but with an interface that allows for easily expanding it to become more and more complex over time. As it being a community project anyone would be able to contribute which then results in more resources available. Even in a scenario where producing such a game fails, the gathered resources could still be used for other projects (well, technically it depends on the license, but you get the idea)

    The other one origins in another forum. The idea was to create a hugh city were people could contribute their own house. Whenever somebody wanted to contribute, the manager of that project would give him a certain range of switches/variables/maps that the contributor would be able to use for his mini project. After finishing he sends it to the manager who builds it into the main game.
    To use a Pokemon game as an example: the player starts in a welcome lounge/starting town where he gets to choose his starter. After that he is free to go wherever he wants; it's an open world game, so to speak. Although, I'm not sure how this would work out with RMXP and Essentials (that project I was talking about was made with RM2k, so importing was relatively easy).
     

    Derxwna Kapsyla

    Derxwna "The Badman" Kapsyla
    437
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    12
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  • I think a way we could try and promote some good activity in the community is by teaming up and working on a project as a group, however not just any project: working on an interactive tutorial for Essentials users.

    I'd say one flaw we as developers and community members make is that we assume that every single person who messes with Essentials should have or will dab into RPG Maker XP beforehand, and that;s not true (I know I definitely didn't, and so have several other pepole here judging by repetitive questions). Perhaps such a kit could go minor into RPG Maker XP mechanics (Not too deep, just enough to give the user a friendly understanding), and then work them into understanding Essentials mechanics. Perhaps even give them basic introduction to RGSS as well.

    We shouldn't handhold users through everything, but we should give them some tools to help them traverse the forest.
     
    1,224
    Posts
    10
    Years
  • I think a way we could try and promote some good activity in the community is by teaming up and working on a project as a group, however not just any project: working on an interactive tutorial for Essentials users.

    I'd say one flaw we as developers and community members make is that we assume that every single person who messes with Essentials should have or will dab into RPG Maker XP beforehand, and that;s not true (I know I definitely didn't, and so have several other pepole here judging by repetitive questions). Perhaps such a kit could go minor into RPG Maker XP mechanics (Not too deep, just enough to give the user a friendly understanding), and then work them into understanding Essentials mechanics. Perhaps even give them basic introduction to RGSS as well.

    We shouldn't handhold users through everything, but we should give them some tools to help them traverse the forest.

    There's some really good youtube tutorials. Case in point. And honestly a good majority of things you'd want to know are in the wiki. Something like recreating FR/LG for people to use as a template might be nice, but the resources are pretty available already.
     

    Luka S.J.

    Jealous Croatian
    1,270
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    15
    Years
  • I think a way we could try and promote some good activity in the community is by teaming up and working on a project as a group, however not just any project: working on an interactive tutorial for Essentials users.

    I'd say one flaw we as developers and community members make is that we assume that every single person who messes with Essentials should have or will dab into RPG Maker XP beforehand, and that;s not true (I know I definitely didn't, and so have several other pepole here judging by repetitive questions). Perhaps such a kit could go minor into RPG Maker XP mechanics (Not too deep, just enough to give the user a friendly understanding), and then work them into understanding Essentials mechanics. Perhaps even give them basic introduction to RGSS as well.

    We shouldn't handhold users through everything, but we should give them some tools to help them traverse the forest.

    I'd say that we as developers and community members assume that every single person who messes with Essentials should invest some of their own time and effort into making their own game. Most don't. Most just come here, waiting to be spoonfed all their wishes. Some even go as far as not even doing any prior research and come here and ask already answered questions simply because...it's more convenient that way. Going in blind like that is counterproductive, and ends in a lot of grief for the newb and senior members here. Either way, I don't care much. If I see post and want to answer it, I do. If I don't, I don't. Beauty of this being a forum.

    Aaaanyway, I don't think the game dev community is dying. It has it's ups and downs like it always had. The only difference is, that the big guns around here, like Wichu and Neo-Dragon (and several others) left, and no one has filled their shoes yet. This is due to several factors. Lack of required knowledge, experience, etc. Most new members we get here are just in transit, and don't stick too long. So of course the project they want so passionately to have all these unique features now, will get abandoned soon. I'm guilty of the same thing. Though difference is, I invested a lot of my own time in it, which kinda sorta went to waste. Most don't even want to do that. Most don't come here to learn, or come because they want to vent their creative passion. There are many here who come for the simple reason of advertising against their competition. It has always been a factor. People looking for praise and reward on the internet.

    But again, that's nothing new. And my main issue is with the multitude of people who don't want to invest time to do any prior research. Who don't want to investigate the tools they are using. Who are not ready to put in the effort of acquiring new skills to better their game, or realise their ideas. I came from nothing, and I'm nothing special really. No different wiring in my brain to other humans. It all comes down to practice. Set my mind to a specific goal, and reached it in the end. Now I have the experience and the freedom to do pretty much what I want. The journey may be long and tedious at times, but it's totally worth it. So from experience, I know that it can be done, and that it is actually very rewarding. It would be nice to share this with more people. But then again, these are fan games. Not serious projects that people want to monetize. So there might be a lack of motivation at play here.

    In conclusion, I think the section is pretty much as it always has been. It fluctuates in activity and content. And honestly, I don't think a colaborative project is really necessary here. It would be nice to have, but I don't see it as a saving grace. A good flow of constructive critisism and productive suggestions are good on their own.
     

    Zeak6464

    Zeak #3205 - Discord
    1,101
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  • There's some really good youtube tutorials. Case in point. And honestly a good majority of things you'd want to know are in the wiki. Something like recreating FR/LG for people to use as a template might be nice, but the resources are pretty available already.

    Well some of us already recreated this , but not so sure it should be released to the public ...
    I might release it due to new project uses different maps anyways...
     
    140
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  • I'd like to add my opinion as one of the 'lurkers' on here.
    Although I might have made a new thread here and there in the past months and years, asking for odd things such as pixel based movement, hand drawn scenarios and a more interactable ( is this even a word? ) environment, I can't say I have contributed in any way to this community.
    Even so, I've been dying for years from the desire to make a game with essentials...
    I can say I have a lot of ideas ( in fact, I've already written pages and pages of story and dialogue... ) and a great imagination ( in the last few months, I've managed to come up with 281 fakemon, and not just poorly designed, but conforming with the pokemon standards and style, as well as already assigned with all their stats, although I have yet to work on their movesets ).
    My problem is that, this is pretty much all I can do with the current amount of knowledge I possess: I don't know how to script, sprite or make tile sets, and honestly, I have no idea how to start, and once I do, how to go on from there...
    I even already bought a copy of rpgxp maker a long time ago, without being able to do anything with it...
    So yeah, I definitely want all of the ideas in my mind to come to fruition, but it seems like I'm lost, or rather, a wall is blocking me from advancing!
    I just thought that maybe there's other people like me in this community that can relate with this, and find a solution together.
     

    DJTiki

    top 3 most uninteresting microcelebrities
    1,257
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  • Honestly, when it comes to Rom Hacking vs Game Development as a whole, there are no "winners" in that debate.

    I'll begin to say that I completely agree with you. As a hacker, I love this section of the forums, alot more than I do Hacking, but this topic seems to come up more, here. Am I making any sort of sense? Because I feel I'm not. The whole debate over whether Game Development can beat ROM Hacking or vice versa, seems to show up here more often than it does in ROM Hacking. I'm not saying "Oh. ROM Hacking is better because they're so much more humble" but I feel that this whole debucle should be laid to rest, because this mentality of doing something to get an "advantage" over hacking when you already have done so.

    It could be something like:

    Game Development: 10
    ROM Hacking: 4

    But Game Devleopment would still find ways to one-up hacking when you've already won. You could argue the point of more new members in Hacking but realistically, games are more beautiful here and new members probably came here, first(it's always aesthics that makes the first impressions). Only problem here is that new members see a price tag on RPG Maker XP and "Nopes" out of there.

    Memebers, realitically, that wants to makes games are:
    ● Under 18
    ● In School
    ● Can't/Don't pay for the engine

    So when they look at ROM Hacking, you can make a game and the assests you need are free. So obviously, people will bear the limits of hacking to do it at no cost. Shallow, yes. But it's the truth.

    Like Derxwna Kapsyla said. Each have their own advantages and disadvantages. But my personal gripe with Pokémon Essentials(few that I actually have) is how tedious it all feels. As much as .pbs files are super easy to edit, looking at a txt file will never stop being boring.

    I feel that the reason Game Development lacks a ton of new members, as do ROM Hacking(not stating its better by any means) because members feel that hacking is far more accessible.

    You may say that hacking has an over-reliance on tools, but that is what Game Development(more like Pokémon Essentials) needs! Imagine something that makes editing .pbs user-friendly(I know there was a tool like this, but it was taken down). Then you start putting the word out there that Game Development is just as accessible and easy to learn as hacking.

    Imagine with a couple-clicks of a button:
    ● Add A New Pokémon
    ● Make a new move
    ● Add in Mega Evolutions
    ● Create awesome items

    That would attract so many members if they knew about it. Right now, I feel Game Development is like "Yeah, sure. We can do that." When you should be like:

    "Hey, man. Tired of editing .pbs files one by one, line by line? Well, we have this kickass tool for that exact thing!"

    "Need help with scripting? HERE ARE ALL THE TUTORIALS ON IT!"

    "You said you need help with this aspect? Let me explain this in the best way in which you can understand it. Everyone learns at some point"


    Confidence is one of the best virtues of man. Use it to your advantage! Scream that you're section is best goddamn thing since Peanut-Butter and Chocolate. Not the same as Elitism, though....Elitism is bad.

    I would love for this section of the forum to be more like that. I'm not saying that some people don't do it now, but if you connected with your new members when you have them, then I am certain, they won't leave as quick.

    I'm not sure what else to say from a hacker's point of view other than "Please don't rip me apart! {XD}. Everything I wanted to say has been addressed eariler. I love this section and the only way it will die is if you have the mentality that it's dead.
     

    Worldslayer608

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  • The discussion on GD vs RH is not, and has never really been about "beating" them, it has been about relative activity levels.
     

    Maruno

    Lead Dev of Pokémon Essentials
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    But does this include games outside the Pokemon spectrum? Like, if I wanted to post about a mod for, say, Command & Conquer. Would that be accepted here? A thing to consider is the notice it would get here. Would a game that isn't Pokemon-centric have a decent following on a forum that is high in Pokemon-related activity? Would it be accepted or even noticed? I think the issue isn't that people don't want to do it, but that this board has become so interconnected with Essentials-related projects that, like said above, any project in a different engine with a different intent of Non-Pokemon just gets shafted to the wayside. I'd love to see more Non-Essentials and Non-Pokemon games here one day.
    Of course Game Dev can be about devving games that aren't Pokémon. We already have a few non-Pokémon game threads in here, and I wish we had more. A Command & Conquer mod, a Half-Life total conversion, add-ons for Minecraft, whatever. It should be more about making them, though, not just saying "I found this game/mod by some guy, doesn't it look fun?".

    The key thing you've hit on there is that this is a Pokémon forum. It's going to be heavily weighted in favour of Pokémon games. That can't be helped. However, other stuff is not forbidden, even if it would be a minority with not as much support as other places could provide. I don't know what we could do to help that.

    As far as Pokémon games, though, while it's nice to see that Essentials is popular, it'd be just as nice to see competition. Perhaps a free Java-based engine or something. I for one am interested in joining a team that would do something like that (so long as my team-mates are competent and I'm not put in charge of everything!).
     

    Nickalooose

    --------------------
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    Of course Game Dev can be about devving games that aren't Pokémon. We already have a few non-Pokémon game threads in here, and I wish we had more. A Command & Conquer mod, a Half-Life total conversion, add-ons for Minecraft, whatever. It should be more about making them, though, not just saying "I found this game/mod by some guy, doesn't it look fun?".

    The key thing you've hit on there is that this is a Pokémon forum. It's going to be heavily weighted in favour of Pokémon games. That can't be helped. However, other stuff is not forbidden, even if it would be a minority with not as much support as other places could provide. I don't know what we could do to help that.

    As far as Pokémon games, though, while it's nice to see that Essentials is popular, it'd be just as nice to see competition. Perhaps a free Java-based engine or something. I for one am interested in joining a team that would do something like that (so long as my team-mates are competent and I'm not put in charge of everything!).

    I liked Command And Conquer: Retaliation lol.
    Although I wouldn't help or even look at a game that is not Pokémon, because this is a Pokémon forum, I didn't come here to see a mimic of Zelda... It doesn't make sense... I am on other forums that refer to Final Fantasy games, card games and what not... But I don't see the point in games non-Pokémony, here!

    Rom Hacking will never "beat" Game Development... Just because it lacks in creativity a little too much for my liking...

    I too wouldn't mind forming/joining a team to make something similar, providing everyone does a large amount of work each... There's no point in someone who can only write story lines, starting a team or game when there is very little that would be needed for that... I'd also prefer there to be no "leader".

    This sort of project would breath life back in to game dev... As Essentials will have taught anyone, there is much to do, so there will always be something to do.
     

    Florio

    Pokemon Crimson Skies Owner
    391
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    15
    Years
  • I liked Command And Conquer: Retaliation lol.
    Although I wouldn't help or even look at a game that is not Pokémon, because this is a Pokémon forum, I didn't come here to see a mimic of Zelda... It doesn't make sense... I am on other forums that refer to Final Fantasy games, card games and what not... But I don't see the point in games non-Pokémony, here!

    Rom Hacking will never "beat" Game Development... Just because it lacks in creativity a little too much for my liking...

    I too wouldn't mind forming/joining a team to make something similar, providing everyone does a large amount of work each... There's no point in someone who can only write story lines, starting a team or game when there is very little that would be needed for that... I'd also prefer there to be no "leader".

    This sort of project would breath life back in to game dev... As Essentials will have taught anyone, there is much to do, so there will always be something to do.

    I somewhat disagree as I think any game using the Pokemon Essentials kit is relevant, such as the Digimon game that was being made with Essentials. And if you aren't interested in them, they can easily just be ignored.

    But I do definitely agree that Game Development is more creative. Since the person has to start from scratch, rather than use the scripts from a ROM, and many people making ROM Hacks often just edit the old maps.

    I was messaging Worldslayer608, and he said he might be interested in making his Sinnoh Project a community type thing, if we could find enough people who showed interested. But like I said he only said might, there was no guarantees. So if we can find more people who show interest, and Worldslayer608 is wanting to make it a public project, then I would definitely like to work on a Sinnoh Project. Of course if he doesn't want to do that, we could always just start our own project (I was thinking a Johto Project as a backup).

    Anyone else who is interested in starting a community project, let us know. The more people we can get, the faster we can complete it.
     
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