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Bay

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  • Does anyone have any suggestions of a good Fic to read?
    Don't really want to say which ones as it might upset someone who wanted me to praise their fic and all that jazz. I would say just look though some threads, skimmed though them first, and see which ones peaked your interest.

    1. If you had to kill your favourite character in a fic, what kind of death would it be?

    Spoiler:


    2. If you had to write a Pokémon self-insert into your fic, what Pokémon would you be

    I would say a Seadra. I like water and I also just love that Pokemon a lot. XD;

    And NO ONE answered my "what makes a good evil team" question. ;_; Not complianing though. Guess everyone is against them or something. XD;

    Or I'm probably a very, very quiet person...
     

    Blue Screen of Death

    Wait, what?
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  • If you had to kill your favourite character in a fic, what kind of death would it be?
    Probably some sort of accident caused by another character. Maybe fire. But the most likely candidate is definitely some sort of epic scene were the bad guy is fighting him, and the bad guy wins. Something like that.

    If you had to write a Pokémon self-insert into your fic, what Pokémon would you be
    I am so totally not not going to do that in something new of mine *shifty eyes*. But it most definitely would not not be a Flareon. Nope. Not Flareon. *Slinks off*
     

    Ninja Caterpie

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  • Of course, if you're actually writing a story that's supposed to be taken seriously, you'll want to go with the "I can only carry so much" idea for obvious reasons.
    You could always have the "I have hammerspace but even that is only this big." Like in the games not called DPPt.

    And now, because I'm feeling so strange already, I'm going to hit you with a pair of oddest questions I've come up with this far.A hammer from my hammerspace!

    1. If you had to kill your favourite character in a fic, what kind of death would it be?
    ...Maybe in the alternate, alternate ending II, he can get blown up in the exploawshun!

    2. If you had to write a Pokémon self-insert into your fic, what Pokémon would you be?
    I'd be an Abra. Useless alone, but strong with Psychic skillz

    *goes off to continue cleaning her room and tries to tapdance while doing so*
    You remind me of my VA teacher. "Who wants to tapdance at the sink?!" and "Tapdancers at the sink ARE... -silence because nobody wants to tapdance and clean the sink-"
     

    Dragonfree

    Teh Spwriter. :3
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  • Does anyone have any suggestions of a good Fic to read?
    The Ties that Bind by Saffire Persian? Old, but still good.

    And last time I read Xanthine's fic, which was way too long ago, it was very good.

    If you had to kill your favourite character in a fic, what kind of death would it be?
    Probably suicide, or some other kind of death involving psychological agony for the character. :D Sacrificing himself for the greater good in some nasty way, perhaps.

    If you had to write a Pokémon self-insert into your fic, what Pokémon would you be?
    I'd probably make myself a Butterfree, although I don't think I could ever write a proper self-insert; it becomes a character of its own the moment I conceive of it.
     

    JX Valentine

    Your aquatic overlord
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  • You could always have the "I have hammerspace but even that is only this big." Like in the games not called DPPt.

    Any explanation that uses the word "hammerspace" cannot, by default, be taken seriously. It's just the nature of hammerspace, really.

    Seriously, though, if you try to violate the laws of logic, you'll end up having to explain things one way or another (unless it's simply canon, like Pokémon attacks). If you don't, it's harder to accept those violations because some of them tend to be glaringly obvious -- or, in the case of the bag, there for the convenience of the character. (As in, if the character's got a bottomless bag, they're just going to be able to pull out whatever they want or need at any particular moment, meaning problems are solved with slightly more ease because you can pull out the item you need at that particular moment to solve it. For example, need to get across a river? No problem. Character has an inflatable raft in their bag. Character is starving? Hold on while they pull out the entire kitchen and can from their unlimited supply of food, rather than go out in the forest and forage.)

    I know you're probably joking; I'm just expanding my answer. *shrug*
     

    bobandbill

    one more time
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  • Any explanation that uses the word "hammerspace" cannot, by default, be taken seriously. It's just the nature of hammerspace, really.

    Seriously, though, if you try to violate the laws of logic, you'll end up having to explain things one way or another (unless it's simply canon, like Pokémon attacks). If you don't, it's harder to accept those violations because some of them tend to be glaringly obvious -- or, in the case of the bag, there for the convenience of the character. (As in, if the character's got a bottomless bag, they're just going to be able to pull out whatever they want or need at any particular moment, meaning problems are solved with slightly more ease because you can pull out the item you need at that particular moment to solve it. For example, need to get across a river? No problem. Character has an inflatable raft in their bag. Character is starving? Hold on while they pull out the entire kitchen and can from their unlimited supply of food, rather than go out in the forest and forage.)

    I know you're probably joking; I'm just expanding my answer. *shrug*
    Hmm... maybe though, Xanthine, you've found out why it's canonically ok for ten year olds to go on adventures into the wilderness and all. Short on food? No matter - your child won't go hungry - they've got a kitchen in their bag, remember? In a sharp spot against an angry wild Pokemon and the entire party just fainted? The portable Helicopter will save your child! :P

    Only then, great emphasis would be placed on NOT LOSING THE BAG then. Imagine the chaos that may ensure otherwise then... O_O (heh sudden crack fic ideas FTW).
     

    Dragonfree

    Teh Spwriter. :3
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  • <_< It's called "The Cave of Dragonflies", and no, it doesn't explain any Pokémon attacks; I've got theories about Pokémon gender ratios and genetics and about the use of incense in breeding, and I used to have one about Pokéballs that I really need to get off my lazy butt and rewrite, but none about Pokémon attacks.
     

    Ninja Caterpie

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  • <_< It's called "The Cave of Dragonflies", and no, it doesn't explain any Pokémon attacks; I've got theories about Pokémon gender ratios and genetics and about the use of incense in breeding, and I used to have one about Pokéballs that I really need to get off my lazy butt and rewrite, but none about Pokémon attacks.
    Sorry, I haven't been there in a while. :\
    ... No theories on attacks? Musta been another site then... :\
     

    JX Valentine

    Your aquatic overlord
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  • And even then, what one fan attempts to do when it comes to interpretation is not the way every author does it. Even if it's plausible, that's just one way of looking at it, and not everyone attempts to describe elements of canon the same way -- or at all.

    My point with that comment was that if you didn't describe Pokémon attacks on a scientific level, readers tend to be lenient on you because the fact that a foot-tall rodent can summon several thousands of volts of electricity to fry a dragon that wields the ability to breathe fire is just something they've come to accept. All you need to do in those cases is describe what an attack looks like, not how exactly it's possible they're created. However, with something like the bag, if you want to be taken seriously, you're not going to have a trainer carry everything except the kitchen sink because the reader won't be as ready to accept that.
     

    Rabbit

    where is my mind?
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  • What is your view on the average Pokemon Trainer's bottomless pit of a bag which can hold infinite items?

    I propose a "Storage Ball" that works like the Poke Ball but stores items instead of Pokemon. If readers can swallow the idea that living creatures can be compressed to data, stored for indefinite lengths of time in tiny spheres, and recalled in an instant without any inconvenience to said living creatures, then the idea of storing items in the same way should be accepted easily. You can even throw in some pseudo-science regarding what can and can't be stored, and possible limitations on the hammerspace within each Storage Ball. (Solution = buy more memory.) Unfortunately, it's not very convenient to use - you can't just reach into it like a pocket and grab what you need - so it could be used to store essentials like Pokemon food and camping gear, and small items like potions and Poke Balls would be stored in the Trainer bag.
     

    Venia Silente

    Inspectious. Good for napping.
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  • Yeah, Buitzel juat PMed me. We were haing a really nice science-based discussion on the topic of Pokémon Attacks. How could they be possible? Would they work they way the manga/anime shows them, or just... don't? And things like that.

    It was a good discussion, although I'm afraid I've been mauling Buitzel's inbox lately. The thing is, we came up with some interesting things, among them the most important a "plausibility scale" of sorts for elemental attacks, which, right now, goes like this:

    Spoiler:

    Coming back to the Lounge, let's see what's up with the questions:

    What is your view on the average Pokemon Trainer's bottomless pit of a bag which can hold infinite items?

    Besides what other have pointed out with respect to either "Limited Hammerspace" or "Actual Real Believable Bag", I guess that even through it is somewhat canon that the trainers can carry lots of stuff (look at Brock...), it also goes somewhat along with the fact that their world is quite more technologically advanced. Poké Balls aside, there is no reason some common tools such as the everpresent and lightningrod-behaving Bike can be made of an alloy, still unknown to us, that is even lighter than aluminum and can react to a specific kind of energy by either shrinking in size or being "transported away". From that to full dinner tables that can be carried back and forth through Kanto it is only one more slightly unbelievable (out of habit) step.

    As for more complex devices (ie.: those with lots of mechanical parts), I'd guess these things would have to be transported via a means like Poké Balls are.

    And maybe stores are much more common in the open than they seem to be. There is no economically‑rational reason why someone would not place a Poké Mart just outside of one of the Whirl Islands, so long as they start with an insurmountable high amount of initial stock...

    Does anyone have any suggestions of a good Fic to read?

    Well, in the short time I've been here, I've found that, as long as you're willing to travel back in time, you can find pretty good stuff. It is not that true that the best fics are kept in the first pages, mostly because of the large amount of fics that have been either popping out or reviving the last weeks (not only here, it seems at BMGF too...).

    Actually some of my favourites, which I would recommend, are about page 3 or 4 currently. "Journey to the Isle of Jade" (An-chan), for serious stories, or "Sir Aaron - A Parody" (P.O.B.) for a nice comedy/parody/satire/whatever. And there are such great "oldies" like Dragonfree's "Death is not to be Feared".

    If you had to kill your favourite character in a fic, what kind of death would it be?

    Well, a death that goes out of the character's expectations. Something like a battle they realy can't win (non-Ninja Caterpie v/s Regigigas) if they are the overoptimistic type. Or, if they are the kind of the ones who would give their arm for a loved one, be killed slowly and have to watch helplessly as others they love die, too. And never accidental deaths.

    But, as far as my actual favourite character goes, I've written quite a couple of death scenes for Lou, and fully intend to use one of them, eventually. He will most surely die during an illegal double battle, trying to help his (human) partner to acquire a very important device. That won't happen anytime soon, however.

    As for canon characters, my favourite is Jimmy/Kenta... but can't think a god death for him. Goes along with my "I can't take on canon characters" thing... :(

    If you had to write a Pokémon self-insert into your fic, what Pokémon would you be?

    Treecko or Pidgey. Of all things, the ones that goes best with me. Or, maybe, just to try, because I have a particular thing in common with them, Gulpin...

    As for the question that has somehow gone unquoted,

    'kay guys, sorry to ask this, but I got a question...what makes a good evil team?

    I'm no good to speak about this, but I'd better do, as I'll have to sooner or later. Well, if you go with the usual perspective of good v/s evil, then you can do two kinds of realistic "Evil Teams"™. They would be the "we want all" kind (like, TR in the anime, but more proactive), and the "we want exactly X" kind (like Magma/Aqua in the games). To make them a "good" Evil Team I think one needs their portrayal to be convincent and realistic based upon threekey factors:
    • Origin and Cause: an Evil Team must have been born from something, an intial driving force strong enough to lead a certain kind of people away from they ways normally accepted in their world. Be it natural deference to a Greater Evil (look at the Senior Partners from the Buffyverse for an actually good example), the discovery of a great, unused power source, or a closed belief taken too far, the cause should be somewhat extreme and something that can drive them for a long time, as an Evil Team will need...
    • Human/Technical Resources: larger tasks such as Dominating The World as We Know It, may require either a couple of generations of people to work on it, or direct control over an unstoppable force. Either way, you need fresh blood, no matter they're willing to sign up or they're driven into Colaborative Zombie Mode. Look at Palpatine's Clone Army for another example done right. Or, if you want an obscure version of an evil "force" driving events for generations because of the exent of their plan, look for the manga called "Chôjin Locke" (I think it was called Locke the Esper, or Locke the Superman in America).
    • Morality: yes they are Evil, otherwise they would not be "Evil Team", right? Maybe... maybe what they do is the "Right Thing to Do" from their view of the world, which may be either more impaired (look at The Matrix's Agent Smith, or 24's Charles Logan) or actually more holistic (look at Golden Sun, or a recent Final Fantasy) than that of the portrayed Good Guys and HM Slave. The thing is, the Good Guys don't necesarily know this. Evil =/= go around happily destroying stuff and ruining people's lives. Case in point: Final Fantasy Tactics Advance I think, the player team is actually the Evil Team for the world they play in, because they aim to "destroy the universe as we know it to return it to how it was", which was revealed near the end of the adventure, and curiously corresponds to the f‑ing same exact core scheme pretty much every FF villain had pushed up in the end so far (Ex-Death, Kefka, Sephiroth, Ultimecia, Sin, even Vayne up to a point).

    Anyways... that are the things I've found they make Evil Teams more believable. I'm not really into the "Oh, let's gather up five random people, meet up at my treehouse, and start throwing stones at bypassers" kind of Evil Team... I'm sure more experienced people can tell you more and actually correct me in some of the examples. I mostly wanted to provide some insight as no one else had done before.

    Oh, and, what the heck, I just feel like bringing a new question, too.

    If you had to have one character become the living magnet for All Bad Luck, Black Kittens and Stuff, who would it be and why?
     

    Buoysel

    Trust me, I'm a Professional*
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  • Yeah, Buitzel juat PMed me. We were haing a really nice science-based discussion on the topic of Pokémon Attacks. How could they be possible? Would they work they way the manga/anime shows them, or just... don't? And things like that.

    It was a good discussion, although I'm afraid I've been mauling Buitzel's inbox lately. The thing is, we came up with some interesting things, among them the most important a "plausibility scale" of sorts for elemental attacks, which, right now, goes like this:

    D:<

    Come on, I posted right above you.

    and I would like to add a correction to something about electricity. It wold take approximately 1,301,694 (one million, three hundred one thousand, six hundred ninety-four.) volts to go 5 meters.

    10,000 volts will only jump about a 1/10 of an inch.
     
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    Bay

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  • Thanks, solovino. :) Yeah, I talked about this to my friends and they mention one of the big things is motivation. 'kay, I got the motivation thought off, but still need conflict... XD;

    If you had to have one character become the living magnet for All Bad Luck, Black Kittens and Stuff, who would it be and why?
    Bunny, because she already had bad luck when she was wrongly accused of murder. XD
     

    JX Valentine

    Your aquatic overlord
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  • I propose a "Storage Ball" that works like the Poke Ball but stores items instead of Pokemon. If readers can swallow the idea that living creatures can be compressed to data, stored for indefinite lengths of time in tiny spheres, and recalled in an instant without any inconvenience to said living creatures, then the idea of storing items in the same way should be accepted easily. You can even throw in some pseudo-science regarding what can and can't be stored, and possible limitations on the hammerspace within each Storage Ball.

    As a side note, I know it's not canon anymore, but...

    Trainer's PC.

    Yes, we can accept the fact that any matter can be transformed into data by now because until our current generation, that's actually what happened. Even to this day, it happens on a level in the form of hold items. Moreover, according to anime canon, it's possible to convert matter into data. "Primeape Goes Bananas" had a scene in which Ash's attempt to catch Mankey resulted in an onigiri being captured with a Poké Ball instead. Likewise, Special had the concept of hold items appear for awhile. (For example, in volume 6, Koga sent medicine to Green by having an Ekans in a throwing star/Poké Ball carry it to him.)

    Point is, the fact that items can be converted into data actually falls under one of those givens with the Pokémon fandom, much in the same way that fans accept the fact that Pokémon themselves can be converted into data. It's not really a part of the problem we need to worry about. It's figuring out how to pull it off without using fan theory as a solution.

    I mean, I'm all for coming up with theories. In fact, I'm totally for people doing it and sharing what they think. I'm just against the idea of saying, "Oh, this is what I think, and I think people should use this from now on." The reason why is because unless it appears in canon, a fan theory can easily be debunked later on down the line by the same canon they're trying to "fix." That and fan theories are more or less like fanfiction. There's a number of ways to look at the same problem.

    Fire: Workable, but would require extremely precise and continuous management of high body temperature. Reasons: would require a sac which can contain flammable gas (oxygen/ohihydrogen) in a highly pressurized form, and attain strong resistance, or else the Pokémon is a walking bomb. A heavy or very resistant body would be needed to avoid both loss of heat and damage from internal changes in pressure.

    You've basically just stated why it's not actually necessary to have a high body temperature. High body temperatures and the ability to store flammable materials that combust upon contact with the air are two different properties. Think of it like this: are lighters hot to the touch? You should really hope not because if it is, it's probably going to take out your hand in about five seconds. All that's needed in order to produce fire are:

    1. Flammable material.
    2. Flame-retardant container (particularly where the flame is going to be). Basically, what you said regarding a body of "a strong resistance."
    3. If needed, a spark.

    While a number of Fire-types are stated as having high body temperatures, that trait really isn't necessary.

    Psychic and Poison:Workable. Reasons: the core nature of the types, much more tha the attacks.

    It's scientifically possible for a forty-pound creature to lift several tons using only its mind without using the explanation "by magic"?

    There is no economically‑rational reason why someone would not place a Poké Mart just outside of one of the Whirl Islands,

    No, but there's a practicality-rational one. Hello, whirlpools and rocks surrounding the islands that make normal water travel to any one of them completely impossible. (Granted, this assumes we're not talking about the anime canon here, which seems to have forgotten why the islands are called the Whirl Islands in the first place.)

    Seriously, though, yeah. Successful businesses are set up in places where there's likely to be, well, business. If you put a store on an island surrounded by whirlpools and rocks, you probably won't be particularly successful unless there's at least a small town there as well.

    I'm sure more experienced people can tell you more and actually correct me in some of the examples.

    No, you've summed it up quite well, actually. Although I must say that in the department of human/technical resources, there's a third possibility: access to a massive amount of manpower (not necessarily stoppable) and money. Money is a serious factor here because in many cases, money = power. People will flock to what looks like a successful corporation or a successful businessman (i.e., one who can at least dress the part) simply because they'll assume that because he's wealthy, he must be the more successful party. Not to mention money can possibly be a shortcut. Need materials to create your doom device? You could spend years building up the funding for it or creating a plan to seize it yourself, or, if you're already insanely wealthy (possibly due to inheritance -- Lex Luthor in modern-day depictions/Smallville), you could simply waltz in with a briefcase of cash, either to buy it outright or hire someone to get it for you.

    Granted, this also potentially falls under the part about needing generations to build up an empire considering where the money may come from, but that depends on how you handle the concept of money. It's possible also to gather forces that you didn't inherit and are merely people so long as you've got the money or charisma to do it.

    Which leads to the next point concerning origin. Yeah, on the foundation, you need a driving force and a goal. But more than that, to get people to agree with you, you need sheer charisma. As gruesome as it may be, take a look at cults, like Charles Manson or Heaven's Gate. Both grew rapidly, not so much because the founders were determined but instead because they were really damn good speakers. At the head of an organization, you need a manipulative snake. That snake needs to know who to address and what their weak points are just by looking at them in order to get them to do what they want. That way, people end up following the leader like sheep, not because they're zombies or because they know there's an immense power driving the organization but instead because they listened to the leader and agreed with him. In a sense, Team Galactic is like this. Everyone in it most likely knows Cyrus wants to destroy the universe and remake it in his own image. That part's cliche, but the fact that he got people to support him anyway because they follow him as if he's Jesus? Not so much.

    The charisma is really the tricky part of the entire shebang. It could just as well nearly convince the protagonist that they're right as it would the antagonist's followers. Shall we bring up the example of Satan in Paradise Lost? I think we should. The reader knows Satan is evil. I mean, come on. Yet, he manipulates not only the reader but also the protagonists (Adam and Eve) into sympathizing with him and doing what he wants, respectively. Leaves you with a dirty feeling, yet you're not quite sure what happened when he does it.

    So, yeah, in addition to what you said, you've got to keep in mind money (or a means to get what you want in general) and charisma.

    If you had to have one character become the living magnet for All Bad Luck, Black Kittens and Stuff, who would it be and why?

    Most of my characters. Because I'm a sadist.

    (Out of all of them, however, Bill's really the only one explicitly mentioned as being such.)

    10,000 volts will only jump about an inch.

    As a side note, how do you feel about the fact that Thunderbolt's Japanese name is "100 Thousand Volts"? Granted, not 10k, but not over a million, either. Strangely enough. (Maybe Pokémon attacks really are weaker than they appear.)
     

    Elite Overlord LeSabre™

    On that 'Non stop road'
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  • If you had to have one character become the living magnet for All Bad Luck, Black Kittens and Stuff, who would it be and why?
    Fred the Dog Master, 'cause he's such a jerk (and a stupid barking lummox at that). But because he's the "Dog Master," he'd probably eat those black kitties whole.

    If you had to kill your favourite character in a fic, what kind of death would it be?
    Buick-related. 'Nuff said.

    We've already discussed the fate of a trainer's Pokemon when the trainer dies, but now I want to go on a slightly different track:
    What happens to a trainer's Pokemon if they get sent to prison?
    Really looking for feedback on this one, lol. It could determine the fate of a sequel to my fic, hint hint...

    Happy holidays to the FFL!
     

    Buoysel

    Trust me, I'm a Professional*
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  • You've basically just stated why it's not actually necessary to have a high body temperature. High body temperatures and the ability to store flammable materials that combust upon contact with the air are two different properties. Think of it like this: are lighters hot to the touch? You should really hope not because if it is, it's probably going to take out your hand in about five seconds. All that's needed in order to produce fire are:

    1. Flammable material.
    2. Flame-retardant container (particularly where the flame is going to be). Basically, what you said regarding a body of "a strong resistance."
    3. If needed, a spark.

    While a number of Fire-types are stated as having high body temperatures, that trait really isn't necessary.

    Seeing as I came up with the fire explanation, I will attempt to explain it.

    Solovino got the chemicals wrong; one organ, or gland will house hydrogen, and another will house oxygen. Just because you have hydrogen at an extremely high temperature, does not mean it is going to ignite. You have to have oxygen for a fire. The precise reason why, if, the hydrogen is in kept in the gland, away form oxygen, it could work. When the very hot hydrogen mixes with oxygen in the Pokemon's mouth, as it exits the mouth, it would then ignite. The oxygen inside the gland of the body would be used to either mix with they hydrogen in the mouth and create an oxyhydrogen fire, or be sent to the lungs to prevent the Pokemon form inhaling fire.

    Oh, and a fire type's internal body temperature would have to be near 1,500oF. So if the gland housing the hydrogen ruptured, and mixed with oxygen rich blood... BOOM! (that explains AC Coda X's exploding Charizard.)

    This is not necessarily how it has to happen, but while browsing flammable liquids I saw oxyhydrogen. That is when the spark of insanity hit me. (pun indented.).

    Then again this is just our idea of trying to apply science to cartoons...


    As a side note, how do you feel about the fact that Thunderbolt's Japanese name is "100 Thousand Volts"? Granted, not 10k, but not over a million, either. Strangely enough. (Maybe Pokémon attacks really are weaker than they appear.)
    Interesting. Raichu, supposedly the most powerful electric type, bulbapedia entry says that it can easly reach 100,000 volts during an attack.

    The formula for figuring how far electricity will travel is about 30,000 volts to every cm, in ideal conditions. So 100,000 volts can jump 3.3cm, or[SIZE=+1] 1.3 inches.

    https://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2006-02/1139260936.Ph.r.html

    [/SIZE][SIZE=+1] If any Pokemon was hit with an attack, they out come would not be pleasent, IF they survived. [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Solovino and I have yet to figure out how one would aim an electric type attack, well spark is self explanatory.

    Also, in reality, ground and steel types would not be immune, in fact they would fair far worse than water types.

    EDIT: I also need to say that I was incorrect when I said that 10,000 volts would jump an inch. It's actually about 76,000 volts.

    [/SIZE]What happens to a trainer's Pokemon if they get sent to prison?

    If they were in their pokeballs, they would just be kept in there, The pokeballs would be kept with the trainers belongings, just as our prisons work today. They would be fine. remember Jame's Carnavine in the amine?

    Unless of course that they were used to commit the crime, then the Pokemon would probably put down.
     
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  • What happens to a trainer's Pokemon if they get sent to prison?
    I think it would depend on the Pokemon, an unintelligent Pokemon, might get put down like a common animal. Other Pokemon would have to be contained in some sort of room that cancels out their powers.

    I'm bored so I thought it would be nice to have a festive themed topic...
    If you could give a character in your fic a Christmas present (assuming they celebrate it) what would you give them?
     

    Ninja Caterpie

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  • The formula for figuring how far electricity will travel is about 30,000 volts to every cm, in ideal conditions. So 100,000 volts can jump 3.3cm, or[SIZE=+1] 1.3 inches.


    Om nom nom nom noooom!!! Stop taking things so Earth-physicsally! Maybe their electricity-travelater formula thing is 3000 for every centimetre! Or Pokemon are just special. :\
     
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