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No Such Thing As Free Will?

Pinkie-Dawn

Pinkie-Dawn

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    • Free will, in definition, allows us to choose whatever we want to do in our lives. But, what if free will was never a thing in the first place, and that we are still "puppets tied in strings?" Think about it, we are still following orders from our bosses in our jobs, but even our bosses are following orders from a higher rank and so on. What if the choices we've made weren't because of ourselves, but because we were under the influence of something else? An example of that question would be a video game with a moral compass feature, where we, the player, are the ones choosing for the main character we're controlling over which side to go on. One could say that the control order ends with God himself, who is responsible with what choices we make and what events had occurred, but who's to say that he too is being controlled by an even higher being? There even exist hiveminds, which controls what you believe in and how you perceive the world around you. Free will in general requires a complete removal of someone controlling your life in order to freely choose what we want. Based on the movies, the only ones who can experience true free will are self-aware A.I., which is why Ultron claims he has "no strings" on him, because he doesn't follow the natural order and was able to experience true free will. I'll just leave you guys to discuss: Do you believe there's no such thing as free will, or should I stop taking movies with philosophical messages seriously for actual debates?
     
    Klippy

    Klippy

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    • I believe there is a balance between free will and predestination.

    Each moment of life leads to another and each action results in a different effect, even insignificant ones like breathing or drinking water. You've got free will, but everything is in place as a result of your choices and free will and often when you enact your free will, you put in motion wider events.

    Call this conjecture or coincidence, but I always feel like the example of passengers missing flights on 9/11 is a good example of free will affecting predestination. Such little things, just a fight with a spouse or traffic, resulted in people not being aboard those flights. It's an interesting philosophical idea to think about though. I often try to remember that when I hit traffic or see an accident after leaving late. It's all in motion and each small decision could change something larger or even large decisions could change small ones.

    Just my feelings on it. :)
     
    Somewhere_

    Somewhere_

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    • Klippy said:
    I believe there is a balance between free will and predestination.

    Each moment of life leads to another and each action results in a different effect, even insignificant ones like breathing or drinking water. You've got free will, but everything is in place as a result of your choices and free will and often when you enact your free will, you put in motion wider events.

    Call this conjecture or coincidence, but I always feel like the example of passengers missing flights on 9/11 is a good example of free will affecting predestination. Such little things, just a fight with a spouse or traffic, resulted in people not being aboard those flights. It's an interesting philosophical idea to think about though. I often try to remember that when I hit traffic or see an accident after leaving late. It's all in motion and each small decision could change something larger or even large decisions could change small ones.

    Just my feelings on it. :)
    Click to expand...

    History is weird. What if the French people never defenestrated two Catholic clergymen? The 30 Years War may not have occurred, and Germany would have united sooner. If Germany united sooner, would they have successfully conquered Europe? Or would have the 30 Years War have occurred anyways, just maybe later?

    I believe we have free will, but the situations around us and our upbringing can definitely have an effect on the choices we make later in life.
     
    Oddball_

    Oddball_

    Magical Senpai and god of the closet.
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    • My favorite Freewill theory is the one about the time traveler, A man travels back in time to speak with his younger self, thus forcing his younger self to have to go back in time to do the same in the future, creating a paradox if he doesn't...

    But then again...
    Every possible action anyone ever has multiple outcomes, and perhaps in some far off parallel universe you turned right instead of left. Who knows what sort of crazy chain reaction that simple action had. Now what if that happened for every choice you ever made. That was ever made. Period? Every action creates a multitude of parallel worlds, meaning that no matter what choice you made, somewhere out there you made the other one. Does that mean free will doesn't exist, and that nothing you do actually maters? I don't think so. Maybe free will is an illusion we craft for ourselves to make us feel important, when all along you are the most important person in the world, everything you do tailoring the reality you see every day.
    Maybe that time traveler, in going back, created a second timeline in his reality, so that both exist side by side. Schrodinger's cat is both dead and alive until it is observed, so until the choice is made, you don't know which parallel world you are a part of.

    Or maybe I just have way to much time to think.
     
    Saragraph

    Saragraph

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    • Free will doesn't exist. It never did, it never will. Free will is a myth, and it's the biggest one out there. Everything we do, everything we feel, everything we think is a result of everything you can imagine: the people we've interacted with, the things we've been through, our upbringing, the media we consume, our genes, the place where we were born and/or raised. Literally everything you can imagine had an influence on us. Our parents brought us up with certain morals and ideas, morals and ideas that partially stuck with us and causes us to think and act in the ways we do. The same goes for our social interactions and the other things we experience. They all lead towards ideas in our brains that we either accept and make it ones of our own, or that we reject and "decide" that those ideas are wrong. Our behavior is based on our accepted ideas, on what we think is right to do or what we think are correct facts, and on our rejected ideas, on what we think is wrong to do or what we think are wrong facts. Of course, our accepted and rejected ideas also have an influence on what we accept or reject, or perhaps accept/reject partially (our brains may only agree with part of an idea or on that idea but slightly different). And as I said, it's not just these interactions but also other things like the place you were born. Can you imagine you would do the same things if you were born on the other side of the country, or heck, the other side of the planet? No, you can't. It's impossible. You wouldn't grow up in the same neighborhood or go to the same school/university, have the same people instill the same ideas in you or even just meet the same people. If your place of birth was different, all these things would be entirely different and therefore your "identity" as well. And there are of course things called genes. These determine what kind of person you're going to be, your character and attitude. Of course it's not only genes that determine this, as I've said there is also a load of other things, but they certainly help shaping you. Depending on your genes you may be more inclined to be super happy and excited all the time, or more serious and pessimistic. They also determine the way you process information and the speed in which you do so, and how you look and what your physical and mental capabilities are. Things that also steer you in a certain way. If you're well build, than you'll most probably go to the gym or sportclubs. If you're not, than you'll do other things, meet other people who in turn make you do different things, act different, and feel different. Everything in our lives determines our identity and actions. We have no choice, we're simply the way we are and therefore think and act the way we do and we can't change that. Our identity was determined before we were even born. Saying that we do have a choice is saying that we can go back in time to change history (this would need to go all the way to the Big Bang) and to change the laws of nature. We obviously can't do this, and therefore we don't have a free will.
     
    Sopheria

    Sopheria

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    • Saragraph said:
    -snip-
    Click to expand...

    This is where the free will argument gets interesting because, really, our actions are heavily influenced by factors beyond our control (like you said, for example, our values, our morals, our upbringing, our social circumstances). But who's to say that means we don't have free will? You could put two people in the exact same external circumstances and they'll react to them completely differently, making different decisions having different thoughts and feelings about them. Sure, even that is a consequence of the activity in our brain, but still, who's to say free will isn't simply an emergent property of our higher brain function?

    I wouldn't say our identity is determined before we're born either, since our identity is constantly being shaped by the events that take place around us--maybe not as much when we're older, but people can and do change even in their adulthood (at least I like to think people can change).

    So I do think free will exists. I see it as sort of a self-evident fact, in a way. Where it gets complicated is when we ask "What is free will?", "Where does it come from?", and "How far does free will go?"
     

    Sir Codin

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    It also ignores the fact that the ideas we're supposedly "influenced by" had to have originated from somewhere.

    If not from free will, then from where?
     

    Kanzler

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    • Just because our actions are influenced and constrained by our environments and our pasts does not mean that we lack free will. In fact, let's look at a definition of free will:

    The power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
    Click to expand...

    Key words are necessity and fate. Surely if you make a decision sans those two things you're exercising your free will.
     
    mew_nani

    mew_nani

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    • I believe in free will. Even if you're religious like me and you believe God up there knows the end result of your every action, you're still the one free to make those decisions and live with the consequences they bring. It seems a bit paradoxical at first but it's not really if you think about it. It's sort of like watching someone play a video game that you've already finished before or have created; even if you know what the end result of those actions available to you are that doesn't mean the person playing has to make the same decisions you did, or that you're influencing those decisions if you're not directly telling them what to do. We're each playing the game of life blind with no walkthroughs available to us, and while God does know what each and every choice we make does in terms of affecting what will happen next we do not, and aren't really capable of foreseeing those minute consequences. Sometimes we're meant to be in a certain place at a certain time, and we're affected by events beyond our control that never allow us a choice in things. But ultimately what we do is still dictated by us; we are the ones choosing which path we're going on and what we're going to do with the time we have available to us.
     
    Omicron

    Omicron

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    • From a physics perspective, I am more of a determinist.

    In quantum physics, if determinism is correct, then we have no free will. However, if indeterminism is correct, there are several ways this could translate into, most notably in the existence of free will. However, if the action of someone was the consequence of quantum randomness, then it would mean there is no free will as well.

    Now, from another point of view. A study found that our brains make decisions up to 10 seconds before we know it. If this is the case, how much control do we have over our decisions? It can be argued that the brain made the decision and therefore it is free will. It can also be argued that if the decision was made before we are even conscious about it, it can't be considered free will. I, personally, feel that the latter is the case.

    This is such an interesting topic, I love it. There's evidence that suggests that one or the other options is correct, but with our limited knowledge of quantum mechanics, we can't be sure of anything. I guess there's where the beauty of all this resides.
     
    Omicron

    Omicron

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    • JohnnyMustang said:
    Quantum mechanics is just a theory based on a lot of conjectures. I love this topic myself but i don't think it has any relevance with this particular subject.

    This study is completely generic, first of all, they gave a limited amount of options, which makes the entire free will concept null, it is not completely free if you restrict access to a limited amount. Second, the scans were made only on the frontopolar cortex, which they think it might be the brain region where decisions are initiated.

    Let's say they're completely right and decisions are always made 10 seconds before you're even aware of it. How or why are you different from others? How do you explain a person who changes its mind, how do you explain someone learning from their mistakes and making different decisions over time? My point is: even if it is just your brain taking the decisions, it is still free will, every brain functions differently, and there are no identical minds.

    Our sub-conscious is a great part of us, it is call that way because you are not 100% aware of everything. In fact, plenty of studies have proven that in a conversation, the body language communicates more than 50% of what you're saying/listening and most people aren't aware of it.
    Click to expand...


    Quantum mechanics are very relevant to the subject. If determinism is correct and everything that has ever happened and will ever happen has already been established, free will, by principle, cannot exist. Now, if indeterminism is correct, the options broaden. Some would undoubtedly end in free will existing, but it could also mean that free will doesn't exist if an event is just the result of quantum randomness. But, as I said, our knowledge of quantom mechanics is very, very limited and giving a definitive answer through it is not possible at the moment. And it probably won't be possible any time soon. But if a definitive answer to this question is to be given, I'm sure it must be and will be through quantum mechanics.

    Now, to the study. The scans weren't made only to the frontpolar cortex, it was a whole brain scan. What is said in the article is that the signals originated in the frontpolar cortex. And not also that, by reading the scans the scientists were able to accurately predict what button the subject would press.

    Well, if having a limited amount of options nullifies the concept of free will, there would be plenty of instances in life where there would be absolutely no free will. You may restrict it but not nullify it by what you're saying. There are options and you may choose between them, it may be restricted, but it would still be free will. If we reduce it to the absurd, there would be absolutely no need to study for a multiple exam test because we are limited to a number of options, therefore there is no free will, therefore I have no control over the answer I'll pick. Again, this is just a reductio ad absurdum. If free will is argued to exist, it must be a constant. It needs to exist at all times.

    Getting a bit more metaphysical here, but, wouldn't the participation of consciousness in decision making be required for free will to truly exist? If a decision we take is merely electric signals in our brain very much like a computer, how much are us, as a person, involved in that?

    How are we different to others? Biologically, our brains aren't exactly the same. they are hardwired differently, different paths will lead to different decisions. Also, the influence of the medium and our experiences mold us differently, that's what makes us unique.
     
    Melody

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    • Personally I believe Free Will exists. Quantum Mechanics, while there are facts to support, is not yet proven as fact yet. It's just a theory. Even if Quantum Mechanics is a thing; then it only explains HOW Free Will works, as there's absolutely nothing deterministic about Quantum Randomness due to the laws, which prohibit us from observing both a particle's velocity AND position. That said; we can't determine the state of the system, nor prove it's really actually deterministic due to the Uncertainty Principle. Only when you observe the state of a system, do you actually make it's output deterministic enough to be predicted.

    So in reality, if you observe everything that is the system of someone's brain, are you really just observing it's state; and therefore taking away their Free Will? That's definitely a salient question; if the laws of Quantum Mechanics hold true. But in all actuality you're likely not going to be able to observe the states of all of those particles at once. So really it may not be possible; but it's a scary thing to think about really.

    Still though, I argue that Free Will exists due to the Uncertainty Principle being a thing; so I don't buy that the mere Existence of Quantum Mechanics can possibly invalidate something such as Free Will.
     
    Omicron

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    • Quantum Mechanics is a scientific theory, yes, and the definition of a scientific theory is the following: "A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation."

    There's been several experiments that have demonstrated the principle of quantum physics to be true, and while new information can and will change what we know, we are able to know they are there.


    In any case, we know next to nothing about the universe. Our knowledge of quantum mechanics is very, very, very limited. I'm, by far, no quantum physicist, but I like both topics. We will have to look into quantum mechanics for a definitive answer on the topic, one we can't reach with our knowledge.

    The answer to the question is we don't know. You may be inclined to believe it exists or you may be inclined to believe it does not, but ultimately, we don't know.
     
    ElCabron

    ElCabron

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    • I don't believe in a religiously perspective we have free will. It might sound like it does, but in reality you end up tied to a fate: Burn in hell if you end up doing other things they judge as bad. And the list is huge. The same time they believe in their freedom they believe their lives should be guiden by a bible. That's my interpretation of free will in the perspective of religion.

    But if we take religion out of perspective, then I believe you are free to do everything. I don't think anything is determined.
     

    正真正銘

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    • Seen Sep 7, 2023
    I think we have limited free will. We may be influenced by higher powers such as social superiors, parents, government officials, companies, and even our own desires, etc. but free will is simply the ability to make choices. Our choices don't necessarily reflect what will happen in real life. Making a choice is no different than setting a goal. For example, I can set out to win 1st in marathon. You can say I made a decision to win. In all likely outcomes, I won't win because I'm held back my own fitness and the fitness of others. But did anyone prevent me from making that choice? No, but the result of the choice was negative due to interference of my earlier choices and the choices of others. Another example: I set out (choose to) pick up a pencil on the ground. Someones picks up that pencil before I do. My choice was negated by the choice of someone else. Free will has no control whether an a choice was actually realized.

    Now, about influence. What influence does is it limit's the amount of choices that your brain is likely to make. Your brain constantly filters out choices that are likely to yield a negative result like "the choice of flying, the choice of becoming president in the 2016 election, the choice of forcing your employer to raise your wage" because your brain is under the influence of logic or what it perceives to be logic. However nothing is stopping you from making any of those choices other that they reckless and unwise. 2 of those can happen but the choice of flying is predestined to give you a negative outcome because of physical constraints/forces acting on you.

    Now say your boss tells you to file some papers. You can:
    a. file the papers
    b. not file the papers
    c. follow your bosses orders
    d. not follow your bosses orders
    e. take a sip coffee
    f. play pokemon
    g. walk out of the office
    etc.
    ∆. All of the above
    音. None of the above.

    The influence of your boss and logic filters out most choices below d. But is anything stopping you from choosing any choice below d? No but they are unwise and produce negatives results or be can be negated (your DS can be confiscated for example). In the end, you choose to file the papers (you made the decision to file papers; you weren't forced to file papers by your boss even if it feels like it).

    I'm not sure that anything I just said makes sense.
     
    mew_nani

    mew_nani

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    • ElCabron said:
    I don't believe in a religiously perspective we have free will. It might sound like it does, but in reality you end up tied to a fate: Burn in hell if you end up doing other things they judge as bad. And the list is huge. The same time they believe in their freedom they believe their lives should be guiden by a bible. That's my interpretation of free will in the perspective of religion.

    But if we take religion out of perspective, then I believe you are free to do everything. I don't think anything is determined.
    Click to expand...
    That's.... not entirely accurate. A true lack of free will means someone else is making decisions for you; you're never really allowed to make a decision, whether it be eating waffles or pancakes for breakfast, going up an elevator as opposed to going up stairs, or choosing which car to buy. You are not the one in control; someone else is making all those decisions for you, and you have to abide by what they think is best for you no matter what. Most religions don't operate like that. While most do have a heaven/hell system, nobody is really choosing heaven or hell for you. You're the one ultimately who determines where you go when you pass away. There is the concept of predestination, which means because God knows whether you ultimately go to Hell or not, you're either chosen to go to Heaven or you aren't and there's nothing you can do to change that. But that's unbiblical and self defeating. Simply because someone else knows the ultimate result of your actions doesn't mean they're making those decisions for you. You're the reason you ended up where you were, because you were the one who made those choices. I guess the idea of fate also leads itself to being inherently lacking in free will but if you think of it that's more like a scripted event in a video game, and you're still ultimately the one who determines how such encounters play out through your actions so there's still some free will involved.

    But if you wanna say religion lacks free will because you either get rewarded or punished depending on what you do, it wouldn't entirely be wrong to say society in general also has a lack of choice. If you do something society applauds, like showing up on time for work, you ultimately get rewarded, while if you commit an action society deems bad like theft or being offensive you get punished with fines or even put in jail. There's no free will because your actions and the consequences of those actions aren't independent of each other; you're not really free to commit certain actions because you can't get away with doing those actions without being faced with the consequences. You can't sleep in late and miss work and still expect to have a job, and you can't go burn down a house with people in it and not be tried as an arsonist. You're being influenced by society, so if you look at it that way they're the ones making those choices for you. But since ultimately you're the one making the choices even knowing what society thinks of them I don't really subscribe to that theory.
     

    Sir Codin

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    Omicron said:
    Quantum Mechanics is a scientific theory, yes, and the definition of a scientific theory is the following: "A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation."
    Click to expand...
    I second this.

    As a recent science major graduate, I would like to ask all of you to PLEASE look up the difference between layman's theory and scientific theory.

    Otherwise, pray that I don't find you.
     
    Pebbles

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    • Klippy said:
    I believe there is a balance between free will and predestination.

    Each moment of life leads to another and each action results in a different effect, even insignificant ones like breathing or drinking water. You've got free will, but everything is in place as a result of your choices and free will and often when you enact your free will, you put in motion wider events.

    Call this conjecture or coincidence, but I always feel like the is a good example of free will affecting predestination. Such little things, just a fight with a spouse or traffic, resulted in people not being aboard those flights. It's an interesting philosophical idea to think about though. I often try to remember that when I hit traffic or see an accident after leaving late. It's all in motion and each small decision could change something larger or even large decisions could change small ones.

    Just my feelings on it. :)
    Click to expand...
    everything happens for a reason
    thats what i believe and your post reminds me of that

    i think we do have free will
    but i also understand sometimes people do not feel like they do have it because of struggles in life
    you know, how in some situation you just feel like you do not have a choice
    because no matter how you do it, you know both ways its gonna end up drastically
    .... to be in such situation and to feel like that, its horrible and all you can do then is have hope really, hope that something like a miracle will happen​
     
    Darklordbambi

    Darklordbambi

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    • I believe it depends on the angle you look at it from, as it's sort of a paradox.

    On one hand, you're always gonna have a reason to do something, because it's overall what you want to do, be it for personal pleasure or gain, curiosity, ethics, or whatever reason. There are tons of things we want to do that we can, we're not forced to make every choice by someone else. On the other hand, afterwards you know there was no avoiding doing it because it was what you chose to do based on your overall desire, and you will always act in some aspect of your interest.

    It depends on what free will is to you. If it means making the decisions you want, then yes. However, it will always be set to one route depending on what limitations the world gives you. Rich people will get to do much more, while a slave will get much less free choices. Yet as long as we're alive, we have some kind of choice we can make, what to think about, things we say and do, we will never be contained to one path other than the path we desire.

    In a weird way, you can say we are slaves to our own wishes, destined to our own free will. It's an interesting little paradox that all depends on how you look at it.
     
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