finally

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-current-state-of-oras-ou.3547120/#post-6381400

so we finally have some legit debate about shadow tag/hoopau/manaphy brought up.
what do you guys think? i mean we have had a lot of debate on gothi, and seeing the council finally going public with something feels good.

From that tourney with Reshiram unbanned:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ubers-82021

This probably shows that Gothitelle is more cancer than Reshi.

Anyway, I don't really want Hoopa-U gone right now, because we need to give it more time to adapt (at least until mid-September or something) and reach a definite conclusion. Manaphy probably needs a suspect test, but I don't think it's broken because it needs to set up before becoming a threat. On the other hand, Gothitelle can go fuck off.

hoopa unbound is a pretty absurd poke. i think the fact that it is a somewhat wonky pokemon to build around and use can obscure how ridiculous this thing is as a breaker. i don't think we should be tiering to try to doctor the metagame to resemble dpp, but if hoopa unbound actually fits under ou's power ceiling, then i'm a little concerned about the direction of ou. i don't think the "give the metagame time to adapt" stance is unreasonable (metagross can attest to this), but i also doubt it will. it is definitely suspect worthy *at least* though.

i think manaphy would be a little easier to handle without scald. that said, i actually don't think this poke is definitively broken by any stretch and its lack of immediate power is a very real shortcoming, but i would nevertheless appreciate a suspect test of that poke. tail glow is absurd lol and it tends to pick its counters with only a few exceptions. it deserves a closer look.

trapping is a fundamentally broken mechanic. gothitelle should definitely be banned. i don't care as much about wobbuffet but i certainly wouldn't lose sleep if it is banned as collateral in the fall of gothitelle. ...which i hope is finally forthcoming. even though it can be mildly overrated, goth is still cancer. it's broken. if people can say "hoopa unbound so thoroughly obliterates enough team archetypes that it being less effective vs. others isn't even that important" (an argument which i definitely support), you can certainly say the same thing about goth. no suspect is needed. ban.

Ill collect my nobel prize for being a pioneer of this now.


On a serious note this means alot to me because these are the main pokemon that contributed to why i quit. So if something gets done about them i may actually battle again. :o

Gothitelle. Ive always been very vocal about how bullshit goth is vs every single play style and its its a double edged sword for me. On one hand im massively happy its getting attention, but why did it take this long? x_x As ive said, literally the only positive goth brings to OU is checking broken Manaphy. :|

Manaphy. Hydration, Scald, Tail Glow. I feel these factors combined are what make manaphy way too much for ou. Though it might be worth testing them separately, most notably Tail Glow but that would probs take way too long lol.

Hoopa-U. Ive never played against this but it looks absolutely redic lol.

On a side note, if these bans/tests carry over to the non mega metagame and come to fruition, in my eyes that will be THE most balanced meta since late DPPtHGSS OU/UU. Knock needs testing too imo in this meta but i digress.

EDIT: Also, smogons gen 4 definition of uber

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Defensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Click to expand...

I know not many people go by this these days, but what do you all think, do they still hold some degree of influence in the modern metagame?



Cool beans though.

So I've been reading through that thread, and I'm very surprised to see that they correlate usage in tournaments to broken-ness. Am I the only one who disagrees with this? I mean, sure, tournaments are nice and all, but the tier is still shaped by the ladder isn't it? The fact that some people think that tiers are shaped by tournaments is making me doubt the credibility of the OU council @__@

Hermione Granger said:

So I've been reading through that thread, and I'm very surprised to see that they correlate usage in tournaments to broken-ness. Am I the only one who disagrees with this? I mean, sure, tournaments are nice and all, but the tier is still shaped by the ladder isn't it? The fact that some people think that tiers are shaped by tournaments is making me doubt the credibility of the OU council @__@

Click to expand...

Tour play in general, has a much higher skill level than that of the ladder so its probably better at gauging brokeness than the ladder tbh due to better players in concentration. Plus some ladder players are synapse and lack logical reasoning and dont give a shit about the metagame apart from their team and what beats it or other play styles, some of them, for example (APS posted logs) dont think gothitelle is broken because and i quote "Weavile and Bisharp are OU" when they are irrelevant to Gothitelle, so i mean lol. :\

Gen 4 definitions are pretty good, though something like Gen 4 dual screens Azelf would be considered broken if they were taken literally. Azelf is able to get SR and at least one screen up in majority, if not all, battles. That's pretty consistent and substantial support.

Anyway I think Goth or Shadow Tag should be quick-banned. It isn't worth wasting time to suspect test either of them. We already know their effects on ORAS OU, and Shadow Tag has been tested plenty of times in other metagames.

Manaphy should be suspect tested. It single-handily brings any stall or semi-stall team to its knees. TG / Scald or Surf / Shadow Ball / HP Fire eliminates all walls that I can think of off the top of my head. The only notable stall Pokemon that can reliably check it is Unaware + CM / Wish / Protect Clefable w/ an SDef spread. Even that can lose to Rain Dance / Rest Manaphy if Clefable gets burned on the switch. Other more standard Manaphy sets are better vs offensively-inclined teams like balance though.

I have no opinion on Hoopa-U since I haven't battled since it was released.

wolf said:

Manaphy should be suspect tested. It single-handily brings any stall or semi-stall team to its knees. TG / Scald or Surf / Shadow Ball / HP Fire eliminates all walls that I can think of off the top of my head. The only notable stall Pokemon that can reliably check it is Unaware + CM / Wish / Protect Clefable w/ an SDef spread. Even that can lose to Rain Dance / Rest Manaphy if Clefable gets burned on the switch. Other more standard Manaphy sets are better vs offensively-inclined teams like balance though.

Click to expand...

The main issue with Manaphy, which you highlighted in this post actually. Scald puts most of its counters and checks on a timer even if it doesnt run one of its actually wide coverage options to blow past checks and counters (Shadow Ball, HP Fire, Ice Beam, Psychic, Energy Ball and even CM etc). "How does this different from other Scald spamming waters?" well curious shrew, other waters dont get the combination of Tail Glow and HydraRest AND the insane movepool which makes it alot more dangerous. I was pondering a complex ban of Tail Glow and HydraRest in a previous post too but really i dont know if this is worth it.

However, I dont think a complex scald ban is good either with Manaphy after thinking about it some more. Scald in itself imo isnt broken on most other mons, its like Stealth Rock in gen 4. A necessary evil and provides a nice blanket psuedo offense for defensively inclined teams and as a threat for switch ins and most of the physical side of the spectrum. Plus if you DD infront of something with Scald or dont have a status absorber you deserve to get something crippled, its the same with every team and nearly every status if you cant absorb it. There may be exceptions like Keldeo and Manaphy who abuse it better offensively (basically how 4x SR weak mons are crippled "better" by sr but overall SR is a necessary evil to check other ridiculous mons) but really i dont think this warrants its banning/suspect test in regards to Manaphy. A simple ban Manaphy would harm the metagame less than one without Scald. I think a metagame without Scald would be alot more shit than one with it too, but thats another topic and i digress.