Operation Torch [OU RMT]--Updated OP!

Operation Torch: Allied invasion of North Africa in WWII

I made this team in literally five minutes at about 1:00 AM. I just threw things together (though with some thought as to the synergy) and then let it rip. Sure enough, while my well thought-out teams get creamed, this enjoys spectacular success. However this certainly wasn't a true serious team by nature so what I need help with is shifting things around to make it all fit. I really only have a few slots I'm stubbornly going to hold on to.

As far as weaknesses go, I haven't experienced any problems yet outside of Focus Blast's miserably accuracy (and subsequent PP troubles when it misses enough) and a dual screen + BP Gliscor + Metagross sweep which I was rather helpless to stop. Help is needed here (and probably in other departments as well).

But the basic strategy is setting up Toxic Spikes and then sweeping my opponent. It's simple enough really. Perhaps the lesson that I've learned with this team is that simple and proven strategies will always work well. But never mind all of that, Here's the team!

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Rotom-W @ Light Clay
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 184 Spd / 72 SAtk
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Thunderbolt
- Shadow Ball

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Rotom-W is my lead, but it's mostly here to counter Machamp leads. If I was being completely honest with you, this is something of a random selection. However, it has worked out pretty well so far. Early screens are a great advantage early in the match to set up hazards, attack the opponent directly, or both. As far as Taunt leads are concerned, I can usually set up the appropriate screen before they Taunt, I assume out of the fear of a Scarf Rotom-W lead. At any rate, this does have trouble with Smeargle/Roserade/Breloom leads, but since this is basically death fodder after I deal with the opposing lead, it doesn't really matter much. If this does live to fight another day, I use it as a Rapid Spin blocker, which usually ends in its defeat. Against certain Spinners, this gives Tyranitar a great chance to come in and Pursuit them, ending their run for good. For others, Gengar can come in and block their spin while also threatening them with supereffective attacks.

The EVs give Rotom enough Speed to outspeed maximum Speed Heatran. I then maximized its HP to deal with Machamp, which makes Payback a 3HKO behind Reflect. The rest is dumped into Special Attack to give Rotom more power, but they have rarely proven useful. I'm considering bulking up its Special Defense a little more to frustrate incoming special attackers.

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Nidoqueen (♀) @ Leftovers
Trait: Poison Point
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Toxic Spikes
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Earthquake

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Nidoqueen sets up hazards. It's as simple as that. Toxic Spikes is the basis of this team: Suicune and Gengar both rely on it greatly to be effective. Furthermore, it's just a generally useful tool for wearing down other Pokemon. Adding to this is Stealth Rock, and while a Pokemon with two entry hazards might seem silly, it's not like Nidoqueen has anything better to be doing, and Stealth Rock is just such a good attack. Taunt absolutely shuts down overconfident Spikers that see Nidoqueen as set-up bait. If I sense an incoming set-up sweeper coming in, I'll use Taunt as well, though it's rarely useful for that. I also use Nidoqueen as my initial switch-in to Jolteon and Lucario, so it's important that Earthquake is here to deal with those two. It also gives Nidoqueen leverage against Tentacruel, who risks total destruction if it comes in to absorb Toxic Spikes. Naturally, I use Nidoqueen to absorb Toxic Spikes coming from my opponent.

The EVs maximize Nidoqueen's physical Defense and give it decent overall Speical Defense. The Speed is more than enough to outspeed most Skarmory. I have been considering balancing out the EVs more since Nidoqueen rarely needs all of that Defense, and its Earthquake is a bit weak, but I don't know really. It will be a 252/252 spread for now, but that could very easily change.

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Tyranitar (♂) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake

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ScarfTar! Wow, this thing is unbelievably useful. It just lasts forever but always threatens nearly all of my opponent's Pokemon. I always play conservatively with this because of its huge importance to the strategy and defense of my team alike. Usually I have a Pokemon at death's door when a Pursuitable Pokemon enters the field, so I send that out to die and then mop up with Tyranitar. Latias, Starmie, Gengar, Rotom-A, Lucario, Jolteon, Infernape, Jirachi (CM). and sometimes even Salamence are all completely bludgeoned by this monster. Because of this, I almost never switch it into any of these threats, even those that don't even come close to OHKOing. this is because I want Tyranitar to Stay healthy to ensure that I can have it for later in the game, especially since I often need this before two or three of my opponent's Pokemon have been revealed. but yeah, I basically never feel the need to put this at risk. It's just so valuable.

The EVs give it all the Speed it needs to beat all of the threats I just mentioned with maximum power. A bulky EV spread could be used but there is no reason to fix something that isn't broken.

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Suicune @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 164 HP / 224 Spd / 120 SAtk
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Electric]

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Suicune is the only true sweeper of the team, though sometimes I don't even need it. This is a nice defensive Pokemon as well, capable of giving big threats (especially Gyarados) a lot of trouble. Once Toxic Spikes are up and Tyranitar takes out troublesome mons (which to my surprise doesn't take very long), This thing is nearly impossible to stop. Tyranitar can even take Trick well to give this thing support. The Leftovers here are, as other users of this set will tell you, a very nice way to trick your opponent into thinking that this is a defensive set, and then you can give them hell, Harry Truman style. This doesn't usually have issues with Toxic Spikes since Nidoqueen absorbs those promptly. This is just a really solid Pokemon, and the team (Tyranitar especially) supports it nicely.

The EVs let it outspeed Jolly Gyarados, and then I used D_A's Special Attack EV mark and dumped the rest into HP. I am also considering a straight 4 HP / 252 Spd / 252 SAtk thread just for more kick, but often times I find myself really being glad I have that extra bulk, so I reckon I'll keep it the same.

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Latias (♀) @ Choice Specs
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Spd / 252 SAtk
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse
- Grass Knot
- Surf

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Wow, Latias is amazing. It just hits so hard. The first thing you will notice is that Trick is not here. Indeed, with Toxic Spikes and two Pursuit Pokemon, Blissey is the least of my concerns. I do, however, have a problem with Suicune, and Grass Knot lets me address it while giving Tyranitar a nice little gift it if comes in. I try to reveal this later so that I can scout for Tyranitar, which is a lot of trouble if it's Scarfed. I originally had a Substitute Gengar in this slot but replaced it to deal with my Infernape/Suicune issues and to generally hit like a nuke. However, I'm somewhat troubled by three mons with a choice item, but I haven't felt the negative effects...yet. But yes, Latias is a force, and I'd say that its addition has improved my team more than it has hurt it.

The EVs are like Tyranitar's. I just want to attack first and with great power. Nothing special here.

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Scizor (♂) @ Choice Band
Trait: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- U-Turn
- Bullet Punch
- Superpower
- Pursuit

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CB Scizor replaces the rather random Empoleon with a strong and reliable scout and revenge killer. Bullet Punch has really improved the efficacy of this team's offensive structure by neutering many faster threats, and even though Tyrantiar usually can deal with these guys by himself, Sometimes I like Scizor to preserve Tyranitar (or even hide its identity) or to scare my opponent away and then use U-Turn. It can send me straight to Tyranitar if Rotom-A comes in, instantly giving me the upper hand against one of the most troublesome defensive Pokemon in the game. While I rarely use Pursuit or Superpower, they can always be useful for their respective trapping and luring capabilities. This also solves my Salamence problem to some extent, though they can survive Bullet Punch and take Scizor too, so I have to be careful.

The EVs are just the standard EVs and are rather self-explanatory. However, I have been strongly considering a more bulky spread. Certainly I want an Adamant nature and plenty of Attack EVs, but I've never really needed all of the Attack that Scizor has. Often times I've been wishing that I had bulk instead. I need help here too as well.

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Thanks for your time. Please rate seeing as I've hit a wall, especially with regard to Gengar's team slot. Thanks in advance!

Gengar works better with Protect>> Substitute because Scizor can either Bullet Punch or Pursuit you, so Protect scouts for one of the moves so you know whether you can switch out safely (Bullet Punch) or kill it with HP Fire (Pursuit).

Ill come back when I spot something else.

Skip Shot said:

Gengar works better with Protect>> Substitute because Scizor can either Bullet Punch or Pursuit you, so Protect scouts for one of the moves so you know whether you can switch out safely (Bullet Punch) or kill it with HP Fire (Pursuit).

Ill come back when I spot something else.

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Sub scouts too (and stops ScarfTar) and eliminates standard Bliss (aka mono S-Toss ones) which he is trying to do with this team.

Have you ever tried Chesto Resting with Cune ? Yeah SS blows but you can CM up then Rest back to full without wasting 2 turns. Id keep HP Electric though, since Gyara is an idiot if it gets in a DD (on Tar locked into Pursuit/EQ or Nido etc) so yeah and Rotom with no def evs is a REALLY shaky check.

Either way i really like this team since it actually has a strategy, something which so few teams have these days then people wonder why they keep losing. Amusing really.

Like I said on Shoddy, Hydro Pump > Shadow Ball could be used to 2HKO BP Gliscor behind Light Screens, though it still gets to pass a boost. Though, that leaves you weak to Breloom, since Gengar is 2HKOed by Seed Bomb so it wouldn't take long to KO it.

You're actually weak to SD Weavile if it sets up on Tyranitar's Pursuit, Rotom-W (with BB of course), and Nidoqueen lol. Ice Punch, Night Slash, and Brick Break all OHKO your entire team bar Suicune who takes ~80%, so if it switches in on SR twice it's dead. Though, it's rare so it shouldn't be a problem.

This is a pretty awesome team, in my opinion, mostly because of the lack of resistances and movesets that take the opponent by surprise.
I feel a slight change of moves might perfect your type coverage. Like Wolf said, Hydro Pump > Shadow Ball might let you take care of some leads such as Aero/Ape, as well as solid damage to Pokes like Tyranitar, Gliscor, etc.
Also, if you find yourself using either SR more than T-Spikes or vice-versa, I would personally replace the less used one with Fire Blast or Flamethrower on the Nidoqueen (whichever one you find more appealing), just to gain a little more type coverage against Pokes like Skarmory or Breloom.
Other than that, this team is...very impressive~

As far as Nidoqueen goes, you might want to look into adding speed EVs to get the taunt on most Skarmory. You can easily go with the Smogon listed EVs of 252 HP / 216 Def / 40 Spe and you'd be just fine. Another suggestion I would recommend is that you stick to either Toxic Spikes or Stealth Rock and replace one of them with another attacking move such as Ice Beam/Fire Blast to keep Dragons/Steels out respectively. Decide what's more valuable to your team between countering things like Gyarados easier or slowly hindering non-flying/steel types. (Change to Relaxed if you do so though. You'll still outspeed Skarm with the 40 EVs.) I would also suggest you stick with Lefties and just predict a status user coming in and taunt it on the switch.

As far as your last slot goes, I think standard Choice Band Scizor can work well for you between being a decent Tyranitar check and easing some prediction woes with U-Turn, which still catches a lot of Pokemon for decent damage. Your team has a fair amount of balance that on a U-turn there shouldn't be many issues on what you can switch in too.

Overall, I think it's a pretty good team. Good job.

Actually, it does not with a Relaxed Nature that I was suggesting with Fire Blast/Ice Beam. In the long run, I consider being able to outspeed Skarm and take on said Skarm, along with other Steels or Dragons directly over a few points in defense. Also, the EVs were incorrect when I checked them on Shoddy. Nidoqueen actually needs 56 Speed EVs to outplace Skarm by one point. Still not a big change in how it can wall.

I understand why he's opted for both T-Spikes and Rocks but the issue that ends up happening is that these threats come in and pretty much get a free turn to do what they like rather than lose thirty to fifty percent of their HP on the switch. In the case of something like Skarmory, it can't be hit with EQ and can predict your Taunt with Brave Bird or just switch. Salamence can switch in and get at least one Dance while you set up one of your hazards. Besides, having just one attacking move cripples your options in general for tight situations.

Thanks for the rates, I'll cooperate as best I can lol.

Skip Shot said:

Gengar works better with Protect>> Substitute because Scizor can either Bullet Punch or Pursuit you, so Protect scouts for one of the moves so you know whether you can switch out safely (Bullet Punch) or kill it with HP Fire (Pursuit).

Ill come back when I spot something else.

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Substitute does the same thing except it also gives me Scarf Tyranitar insurance. But I really prefer Substitute to stall Toxic Spikes turns out without the risk of getting statused or using Protect while a Pursuiter switches in (making my chances of surviving 50% whether I take a gamble and attack or take a gamble and try to Protect again). I say this having had my Sub broken and then Scizor comes in to revenge kill me. Honestly, it rarely uses Pursuit so I usually feel safe switching out.

Dark Azelf said:

Have you ever tried Chesto Resting with Cune ? Yeah SS blows but you can CM up then Rest back to full without wasting 2 turns. Id keep HP Electric though, since Gyara is an idiot if it gets in a DD (on Tar locked into Pursuit/EQ or Nido etc) so yeah and Rotom with no def evs is a REALLY shaky check.

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Yeah, I'm keeping HP Electric no matter what. The fact that offensive Suicune is my only answer to Gyarados is worrisome enough. At any rate, that sounds reasonable enough, but will I miss Ice Beam? Latias hasn't been a problem yet since I usually death fodder Rotom-A so Tyranitar can Pursuit it while taking a minimum of one Surf. But Salamence, Breloom, Celebi, and to a lesser extent (due to Surf's neutrality on it) Flygon also worry me a bit.

Wolflare said:

Like I said on Shoddy, Hydro Pump > Shadow Ball could be used to 2HKO BP Gliscor behind Light Screens, though it still gets to pass a boost. Though, that leaves you weak to Breloom, since Gengar is 2HKOed by Seed Bomb so it wouldn't take long to KO it.

You're actually weak to SD Weavile if it sets up on Tyranitar's Pursuit, Rotom-W (with BB of course), and Nidoqueen lol. Ice Punch, Night Slash, and Brick Break all OHKO your entire team bar Suicune who takes ~80%, so if it switches in on SR twice it's dead. Though, it's rare so it shouldn't be a problem.

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SD Weavile is too obscure for me to bother with really haha. Though I did fight a Choiced one and Brick Break did 32% to Suicune (with no recovery this is a lot)...so it actually has been something of a problem. Empoleon is always expendable, so if you have any suggestions, feel free to suggest replacements if you have any ideas.

As for Hydro Pump, I really hate that move because of its accuracy. Frankly, if Gliscor made me hurt inside that much, I'd probably prefer using HP Ice (it does more damage, after all). However, I doubt it helps with that much since my answer the first time was Suicune where it wasted a Turn Taunting me (something Rotom has fallen victim to itself). I'm happy kind of happy with my type coverage if I'm being honest with you haha.

Lickitricky said:

Also, if you find yourself using either SR more than T-Spikes or vice-versa, I would personally replace the less used one with Fire Blast or Flamethrower on the Nidoqueen (whichever one you find more appealing), just to gain a little more type coverage against Pokes like Skarmory or Breloom.

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Nidoqueen is too weak for that IMO, and to pull that off, I'd have to subtract from a stat that I really need or I'd have to run a neutral nature (lol). Frankly, the only attack I haven't found necessary is Earthquake, but I like that for a just in case measure against Lucario and Jolteon. But yeah, I really don't have the room I'm afraid =(.

RaveSage said:

As far as your last slot goes, I think standard Choice Band Scizor can work well for you between being a decent Tyranitar check and easing some prediction woes with U-Turn, which still catches a lot of Pokemon for decent damage. Your team has a fair amount of balance that on a U-turn there shouldn't be many issues on what you can switch in too.

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This is an interesting one, and I reckon I'll get to testing it shortly. Still provides good resistances and power but also nice defensive capabilities (and wow does it help with Salamence), so yeah, I'll implement this soon and see how it goes. Thank you =).

.Gamer said:

Anywho, pretty solid team imo. I see you took Calum's advice and didn't put your hazards as your lead. I'm not crazy about Rotom-a leading but if it works for your strategy, they go for it imo. Did a calc to check it: 40.1% - 48% Lead Tar Payback v. Rotom-W from behind a screen. Fancy. that has nothing to do with the rate but i thought it was cool

Looks like a pretty fun team to use. I still like my idea of using SubPunch Gar or at least putting Pain Split in their somewhere because after PS + Focus Blast (hitting) it KO's Blissey who otherwise walls you.

DDTar has potential to sweep you outright if it can set up on Suicune thats asleep, so I would take D_A's advice about ChestoResting, since Sandstorm won't really bother you all that much with rest on it. Pretty solid team (again) for having been out so long.

Am I the only one who thinks Anti has been secretly laddering while he claimed to be retired?

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Nah I just have hated SR suicide leads forever since they're useless and silly. Hazards on leads aren't necessarily bad, but when people sacrifice a whole Pokemon just to get them out earlier, yeah it's almost always totally silly.

As for SubPunch Gar, as I told you on Shoddy, I like using sets that actually work =p. Focus Blast, outside of that awful accuracy, does the job well enough, and I don't want to be dead meat if Tyranitar comes in and Pursuits when I'm not behind a Sub, and that's not just with the Scarfer. As for Blissey, Toxic Spikes ruin it. No big deal there.

And nah, otherwise I'd be able to build legit teams lol >_>

RaveSage said:

Actually, it does not with a Relaxed Nature that I was suggesting with Fire Blast/Ice Beam. In the long run, I consider being able to outspeed Skarm and take on said Skarm, along with other Steels or Dragons directly over a few points in defense. Also, the EVs were incorrect when I checked them on Shoddy. Nidoqueen actually needs 56 Speed EVs to outplace Skarm by one point. Still not a big change in how it can wall.

I understand why he's opted for both T-Spikes and Rocks but the issue that ends up happening is that these threats come in and pretty much get a free turn to do what they like rather than lose thirty to fifty percent of their HP on the switch. In the case of something like Skarmory, it can't be hit with EQ and can predict your Taunt with Brave Bird or just switch. Salamence can switch in and get at least one Dance while you set up one of your hazards. Besides, having just one attacking move cripples your options in general for tight situations.

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While I already addressed why I'm not going to use Fire Blast, I'll just say that I'm not really concerned about catching anything coming in on the switch. To tell you the truth, I basically always set up hazards the moment Nidoqueen comes in (usually it has screen support at the beginning as well), and after that, I just Taunt everything, so being set-up bait won't matter anyway. And really, even if something like Gyarados does come in, I'm prepared to handle these threats to some extent at least. Scizor will probably be on board for good seeing as D_A also said something about my lack of priority on the server, so I'll probably use that soon.

Again, thanks for all the help guys even though I'm a sutbborn ass and I often don't take suggestions lol. If I run into issues with the Scizor version I'll report them here.

Who are you gonna place Scizor over ? Id assume Empoleon ?

Also SD Scizor seems a kinda annoying for you, has it been an issue ? Id guess you just beat it with Rotom + Cune combined ?

Yeah, Scizor replaced Empoleon. So far it has worked well, winning every game except for one since, well, I played like crap (whether I would have won or not had I not stunk it up is hard to say). At any rate, Gengar hasn't been pulling its weight, mostly because it just doesn't hit very hard. However, it's been awhile since I've seen a Blissey, so perhaps I am underrating its importance. At any rate, I would like some potential alternatives--just make sure it's immune to Ground, since that's an issue without Gengar.

Ehh, I don't really like the fact that you have three Choice Band users, but you can use it if you want to.

In terms of alternatives (im assuming ways to help out against Gyara/Weavile/Scizor?), you could try offensive or even bulky Gyarados. It can set up on Scizor, cushions Weavile's attacks thanks to Intimidate (really works better here with the bulky version), and can hand foe Gyarados a new one with its own Stone Edge, if you choose to run it over Bounce.

.Gamer said:

Anti's Team sosocute. I can't really see any weaks tbh. MixMence can be porblematic as can Infernape depending on what its running. A Mach Punch Variant causes you problems but its not all too common. Lucario @ Bullet Punch (more common) poops on a good part of your team if it runs SD/ES/Crunch/Bullet Punch. Only thing that really stops it is Nidoqueen but lets be honest, its pretty easy to get rid of Queen. Thats about all I can see. Other than it, cute team. I approve.

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Uhhhh yeah because Lucario would totally drop its stab Close Combat. >__>

Alright, I've basically given up laddering for any kind of high rating since my account has stagnated due to the previous two team failures, and now victories hardly boost my rating. >_> But in any event, this thing just won't lose. However, one painful exception here has been Forretress. I barely beat one team with it (needed a bit of hax) and one team lost a lot of Pokemon but ultimately stalled me out. Spikes damage killed. So far this is the only weakness I've suffered from lately.

I have been reconsidering Flamethrower or Fire Blast on Nidoqueen to combat this problem. Certainly it's a good lure since it will want to Rapid Spin, and then I can finish it. I would be replacing Earthquake since Jolteon just can't really do anything to this team, and Fire Blast + Bullet Punch = dead Lucario. I also won't need to run Speed EVs since a Bold nature will do fine. I've also been looking to tweak the EV spread for more special bulk, but I don't know yet really. any thoughts on the moveset/EV changes?

I've also been considering dropping Calm Mind and Leftovers on Suicune in favor of Rest and Chesto Berry. This might sound insane, but I honestly never use Suicune as a Calm Minder anymore but more as something to deal with troublesome threats and provide for overall bulk while still being threatening. Also, when Suicune does become a decided factor, the problem is often that it is plagued by status and SR damage, which Rest helps more with. IF I was already good against Gyarados I would run Rest over HP Electric and keep Leftovers, but that isn't the reality. However, I don't know if this is ill-advised. I would still keep the same nature and EVs. Thoughts?

Otherwise, I think that the lineup is solid. Winning is consistent and usually pretty easy. I've fought against various play styles including Rain, Trick Room, stall/semi-stall, and offense, and none of these styles (except stall with Forretress as I mentioned) has given me any real trouble. However, the dual screen + BP Gliscor + sweeper thing is a problem still, but luckily I haven't run into it.

But wow did I underestimate ScarfTar...thing gets literally 3-4 kills per game.

EDIT: As far as Mach Punch Infernape goes, it still can't bypass Latias, and even if that's dead, I can force it to kill a strong Pokemon like Nidoqueen or Suicune (if it can even OHKO Nidoqueen) and then I can pick it off with Bullet Punch. Besides, hazards + SS + LO makes Infernape really crummy =/.

MixMence dies to death fodder (typically Rotom) + ScarfTar/Scizor.

Well you could try a couple of things to help with Forry;

• Rotom-H >> Rotom-W @ Overheat
• HP Fire on Latias
• Ive seen some players use Fire Blast on ScarfTar over EQ.
• Nido @ Fire Blast/Flamethrower

Depends on what you want really.

As far as Nido using Flamethrower/Fire Blast goes, I still suggest you just drop Taunt and go with Relaxed ect. as I mentioned above. I understand your insisting to keep taunt and have only one attacking move, but now that you lack your STAB attack, things Nido would normally scare off now have easier switch ins like Heatran who not only loses his fear of EQ, but is almost guaranteed to get his Flash Fire boost if you attack and doesn't care about T-Spikes.

Edit: Something else you could do for your team is to change rotom-W to H so you can fake Overheat assuming you haven't revealed all your attacks already. This wouldn't replace putting a fire attack on Nido but it gives you a bit of safety since if you predict the spin or they spike, they'll switch out fast and you can get screens up.

I can't drop Taunt. It's too vital to the set. Had this been in the early and more theoretical stage of building this team I would have accepted your advice but you'll have to trust me on this one--it's vital that I can Taunt Skarmory, especially since it can get up a few layers before getting hit with Fire Blast. Heatran is not a problem for my team at all (Suicune/Liatas/Tyranitar plus Scizor luring with Superpower is more than enough), so I'm not really worried. I appreciate the suggestion though.

On a similar note, I have started with the testing of Fire Blast, and already I played a TauntSkarm (which is faster), but Fire Blast put it in its place quickly, and my opponent just left lol. I'm hoping for Similar results with Forretress since it's almost exclusively for that. Based on my previous experiences all I would have needed to do is press the "Fire Blast" button and it would have worked but idk. If I begin to miss Earthquake, I'll have to cut something of vital importance from Nidoqueen, but for now, I'm good.

Also of note was a Hail stall team I played that 5-0ed me quite easily, largely due to SubSeed Sceptile and Abomasnow (it took four Rotom Shadow Balls to not break its Sub), and this was the first time I really missed Gengar since I set up my hazards and all I really needed was for them to not get spun away and I probably would have won. I don't want to overreact to this too much, especially given how uncommon both SubSeeders and Hail stall teams are, but I thought I'd mention it in case anyone has any thoughts.

Still need some input on my predicament with Suicune, if possible. Thanks for the help though everyone. Even if I didn't take your suggestion it likely made me think of my team critically, which has helped me understand it well. My now I am pretty good at using it even though some problems with stall remain. though despite that, I don't recall ever losing to a conventional offensive team (aka not dual screen/bp/sweep) ever with any version of this team, which is nice.