VGC 16

I'm trying out the VGC format, since I'm planning to go to a competition that hosts the format at my university. The point of this team is to provide beatdown on the opponent. I moved this team out from the Team Building thread, since I also got advice on what to put in from the eSports club the other day. I'm looking for more feedback.

Kyogre:

-Origin Pulse
-Ice Beam
-Thunder
-Protect
Nature: Modest
EVs: 116 HP/140 Def/252 SAtk
Item: Blue Orb

Rayquaza:

-Dragon Ascent
-Extreme Speed
-Earth Power/Overheat
-Protect
Nature: Naive
EVs: 252 Atk/4 SAtk/252 Spe
Item: Life Orb/Lum Berry

These two Pokemon are the Ubers I picked and the focus on the team. Even though Rayquaza's Air Lock and Delta Stream will negate Primal Kyogre's Primordial Sea, it helps Kyogre land Origin Pulses on Primal Groudon, since the former ability also ignores Desolate Land. Rayquaza also has the option to Mega Evolve to gain Delta Stream and shed its Flying weaknesses when needed. I'm undecided between Earth Power, Overheat, or Swords Dance on Rayquaza, since Earth Power hits Mega Mawile and Primal Groudon, Overheat hits Mawile, Ferrothorn, and Aegislash harder, and Swords Dance lets Rayquaza hit harder in general at the cost of being walled by most Steels.

Crobat:

-Super Fang
-Tailwind
-Quick Guard
-Taunt
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 HP/4 SDef/252 Spe or 36 HP/252 Def/220 Spe (latter spread avoids the OHKO on Mega Kangaskhan's Double-Edge)
Item: Mental Herb/Sitrus Berry/Lum Berry
Ability: Inner Focus

Crobat provides speed control for the team via Tailwind. Super Fang lets it chunk non-Ghost walls hard to let the harder hitters finish those walls off. Quick Guard blocks priority, while Taunt prevents setups. When paired with Mega Rayquaza's Delta Stream, Crobat will lose its Flying weaknesses, which is nice.

Weavile:

-Fake Out
-Knock Off
-Icicle Crash
-Low Kick
Nature: Jolly
EVs: 252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spe
Item: Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure

A check to Mega Salamence, as well as an anti-lead alongside Rayquaza. Knock Off removes non-Mega Stones, Icicle Crash hits the aforementioned Mega Salamence hard, Low Kick hits Steel Pokemon, and Fake Out can potentially prevent setups as well.

Amoonguss:

-Giga Drain/Sludge Bomb
-Rage Powder
-Spore/Clear Smog
-Protect
Nature: Bold
EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 SDef
Item: Sitrus Berry/Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator

Amoonguss can use Rage Powder to save the other teammates from potentially fatal non-spread moves. It can also screw with Xerneas by putting it to sleep with Spore or wiping away its Geomancy boosts with Clear Smog.

Even after the advice that was given to me, I'm still undecided on the last slot between Mega Mawile and Aegislash:

Mawile:

-Iron Head
-Play Rough
-Sucker Punch
-Protect
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 124 HP/252 Atk/132 Spe
Item: Mawilite
Ability: Intimidate

I decided on Mawile on my own, since it's a hard hitter that pairs nicely with Primal Kyogre, which makes it immune to Fire attacks thanks to Primordial Sea. The above EVs allow Mawile to outspeed threats up to Mega Salamence under Tailwind.

Aegislash:

-Gyro Ball
-Shadow Ball
-Wide Guard
-King's Shield
Nature: Quiet
EVs: 252 HP/252 SAtk/4 SDef or 252 HP/100 SAtk/156 SDef
Item: Leftovers/Weakness Policy

The guys at the club suggested Aegislash instead because it provides Wide Guard support, while still being able to take on Xerneas. However, it's kind of risky, since Xerneas can Protect to block Gyro Ball, which KOs Xerneas after it's boosted up.

I'm aware of the pretty crippling Fire weakness on the team; once Kyogre goes down, I'm screwed. I don't know what to take out for another Fire resist, though; any suggestions on how to deal with this?

Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.

I've been watching some VGC analysis and attempting to ladder some so I have a general idea of the format. not too much knowledge though...

If I may suggest something, you pointed out your huge fire weakness. You do automatically lose to Pdon if your Kyogre faints or if you are in a position where you lose the weather war. I really like your team as a whole but one option that you could consider is Landorus-I over Weavile. Weavile definitely is a solid answer to Mega Salamence but I feel like Kyogre and Mawile deal with it well enough. Especially the latter if it lacks Fire Blast or Flamethrower. Landorus-I lets you pick up the 1HKO on Primal Groudon while also netting KOs on Mega Gengar and Mawile. HP Ice also does a lot of damage to things like Salamence and Yveltal.

252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Earth Power vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 203-242 (106.8 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 182-218 (106.4 - 127.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yveltal: 86-101 (42.5 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Another small thing you could consider is running Specially Defensive Amoonguss. I feel it's a bit better this year in VGC because it needs to be able to tank Origin Pulses, Water Spouts, Moonblasts better etc.

Again these are just some suggestions and probably aren't the best but are worth considering.

Castform said:

I've been watching some VGC analysis and attempting to ladder some so I have a general idea of the format. not too much knowledge though...

If I may suggest something, you pointed out your huge fire weakness. You do automatically lose to Pdon if your Kyogre faints or if you are in a position where you lose the weather war. I really like your team as a whole but one option that you could consider is Landorus-I over Weavile. Weavile definitely is a solid answer to Mega Salamence but I feel like Kyogre and Mawile deal with it well enough. Especially the latter if it lacks Fire Blast or Flamethrower. Landorus-I lets you pick up the 1HKO on Primal Groudon while also netting KOs on Mega Gengar and Mawile. HP Ice also does a lot of damage to things like Salamence and Yveltal.

252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Earth Power vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 203-242 (106.8 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 182-218 (106.4 - 127.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yveltal: 86-101 (42.5 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Another small thing you could consider is running Specially Defensive Amoonguss. I feel it's a bit better this year in VGC because it needs to be able to tank Origin Pulses, Water Spouts, Moonblasts better etc.

Again these are just some suggestions and probably aren't the best but are worth considering.

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The thing is, I'm working with what I currently have. Yes, Incarnate Landorus could be good, but I already caught an Adamant one and turned it to the Therian forme in-game. Would the Therian version work too, since it provides Intimidate support? I already know that it won't KO a healthy Primal Groudon right away.

I'll find out what I can do about Amoonguss, though.

Swampert gets Wide Guard and is not Fire weak, so there's that. Could even be a secondary Mega if you decide to not use Mega Ray, though I'm pretty sure Swampert is usable in its non-mega form in VGC and it might be better to leave it that way actually.

Nah said:

Swampert gets Wide Guard and is not Fire weak, so there's that. Could even be a secondary Mega if you decide to not use Mega Ray, though I'm pretty sure Swampert is usable in its non-mega form in VGC and it might be better to leave it that way actually.

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I could do that, but I don't want to get boned too much by Ferrothorn. I'll consider that, too.

PlatinumDude said:

The thing is, I'm working with what I currently have. Yes, Incarnate Landorus could be good, but I already caught an Adamant one and turned it to the Therian forme in-game. Would the Therian version work too, since it provides Intimidate support? I already know that it won't KO a healthy Primal Groudon right away.

I'll find out what I can do about Amoonguss, though.

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I don't really know how good Therian Landorus is but might be worth a shot. The Intimidate support helps against Talon and Kang for sure but Groudons are usually special I think. An Assault Vest set with EQ, Rock Slide, Knock Off/U-turn, and Explosion might be something.

Update us on the Amoonguss though!

Landorus isn't as strong as it once was after being dethroned by Groudon as king of VGC. Because of incarnate's lack of it's hidden ability, it loses out on a lot of power and is really not that great in the VGC doubles meta. On paper it may seem nice, getting some decent KOs here and there, but with protects mixed in with fake outs and other support moves accompanied by decent plays, Landorus-I is not going to have the best of times. Even in VGC15 it suffered, rarely being seen near the end of the season in higher level play. Landorus-T on the other hand, strong earthquakes and intimidates used to be it's strong point, nowadays it's meh. He doesn't even break into the top 12 on battle spot anymore (Although he did make the 12th spot in most used in the International Challenge). More people are running mixed/special Groudon due to it's lack of a strong physical fire type move, so intimidate is becoming less of a necessity. It's not all bad though, most of the viable megas this year are physical or mixed leaning towards physical (Kangaskhan, Salamence, Mawile, Rayquaza). Just don't expect too much out of him with Groudons, Kyogres, and Xerneas running rampant.

Your Groudon weakness is fairly obvious if they get rid of your Kyogre, but your best bet is to just work around it with Kyogre and Rayquaza. I guess you could say they're Groudon's "counter" and check respectively. Just try and make safe plays while keeping at least one of these in the back to prevent Groudon from taking advantage of weather.

No Swords Dance. When using a nature that lowers one of your defenses, you don't want to be taking hits while trying to set up in a doubles environment unless it's like a Geomancy boost or a super-effective double PuP. Have you considered waterfall? Earth power and overheat are both great choices depending on what you're having trouble with. Stab Draco Meteors are always strong too. Just play around with it, Rayquaza is very diverse.

As for the Mawile vs Aegislash, I'd personally choose Mawile mainly because of play style preference for this meta. It gives you a choice of mega, consistent Xerneas counter-ish (most only run fairy type moves but beware of Hidden power variants in higher level play), intimidate support pre-mega, and highly significant damage. With the introduction of legends this meta, everything is so naturally bulky and revolves mainly around the Pokemon that hit like semis.... Aegislash is just so easily played around and predictable with it's somewhat awkward ability and limited moves choices. Not saying Aegislash couldn't work in this meta, just depends what tier of a VGC player you are. Aegislash misplays are really hard to jump back from since you can be punished extremely hard for it.

I haven't really played VGC16 as much as I've played 14 and 15 but I do keep up with the scene seeing as I live within a small radius consisting of many world's class players. Team looks solid and what I would expect to see from good players and possibly top cut. If you want to figure out what Pokemon to replace, all I can really say is practice with the team and see who the weakest link is. Testing is highly essential to team building.

But yea, try specially defensive Amoonguss. You'll have a much better time against Kyogres with Ice Beams and Xerneas with Hidden Power. And as long as you're able to not reveal too much, many are afraid to physically attack Amoonguss with a pokemon like Kangaskhan.

My mates and I are all running Rayogre teams so far, and I gotta say, Jolly is the way to go on Rayquaza's nature, especially if you're looking into Overheat in the third move slot. With a Life Orb, Mawile has to EV ridiculously to live and Ferrothorn has a snowball's chance in Arizona:

0- SpA Life Orb Rayquaza Overheat vs. 252 HP / 164+ SpD Mega Mawile: 133-156 (84.7 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0- SpA Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Mawile: 143-169 (91 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

(No one is running this Mawile spread obviously)

So yeah. Just sayin. You can live Ice Beams and unboosted Dazzling Gleams, and it's a roll against Double-Edges and Dragon Ascents from all the popular contenders.

Also what do the EV's on your Kyogre accomplish? A good friend of mine is running a similar bulky offense set but he runs 252 HP / 116 Def to always live Ferrothorn's Power Whip.

skyburial said:

My mates and I are all running Rayogre teams so far, and I gotta say, Jolly is the way to go on Rayquaza's nature, especially if you're looking into Overheat in the third move slot. With a Life Orb, Mawile has to EV ridiculously to live and Ferrothorn has a snowball's chance in Arizona:

0- SpA Life Orb Rayquaza Overheat vs. 252 HP / 164+ SpD Mega Mawile: 133-156 (84.7 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0- SpA Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Mawile: 143-169 (91 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

(No one is running this Mawile spread obviously)

So yeah. Just sayin. You can live Ice Beams and unboosted Dazzling Gleams, and it's a roll against Double-Edges and Dragon Ascents from all the popular contenders.

Also what do the EV's on your Kyogre accomplish? A good friend of mine is running a similar bulky offense set but he runs 252 HP / 116 Def to always live Ferrothorn's Power Whip.

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The EV spread lets Kyogre take Life Orb Mega Rayquaza's Dragon Ascent from full health:

252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 116 HP / 140 Def Primal Kyogre: 160-188 (84.2 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It also lets it take Ferrothorn's Power Whip if said Ferrothorn isn't using a Brave nature.

Besides, I caught that Rayquaza a long time ago and I can't do anything about its nature. So yeah, I have the feeling I'm going with Overheat simply because I have the feeling I'm going up against plenty of Ferrothorn, while Kyogre can handle Groudon as long as I can keep my weather(s) going.

Edit: I decided to work on re-breeding a specially defensve Foongus/Amoonguss after doing a favor for a friend. Would the old specially defensive spread of 188 HP/164 Def/156 SDef with a Calm/Sassy nature work?

PlatinumDude said:

Edit: I decided to work on re-breeding a specially defensve Foongus/Amoonguss after doing a favor for a friend. Would the old specially defensive spread of 188 HP/164 Def/156 SDef with a Calm/Sassy nature work?

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Should work fine. After Sitrus Berry, Moonblast from +2 Modest Xerneas is a 3HKO:

+2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 188 HP / 156+ SpD Amoonguss: 108-127 (50.7 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Other important calcs:

252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 188 HP / 156+ SpD Amoonguss: 132-156 (61.9 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 188 HP / 156+ SpD Amoonguss in Heavy Rain: 67-79 (31.4 - 37%) -- 82.4% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 188 HP / 164 Def Amoonguss: 117-138 (54.9 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4 SpA Rayquaza Overheat vs. 188 HP / 156+ SpD Amoonguss: 128-152 (60 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Aerilate Mega Salamence Hyper Voice vs. 188 HP / 156+ SpD Amoonguss: 132-156 (61.9 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(most mences don't even run this much Sp.Atk anyways)




This spread let's you survive a lot really and even gives you the option to run Mental Herb if desired tbh.

IMO for staying power you have Amoongus run with Giga Drain, spore, Sitrus berry. Extra Calculations maybe need to be considered for a Harsh Sun Flamethrower from Groudon unless it gets OHKOed anyway then it wouldnt matter. You way also want to consider someone that can take a hit from Amoongus's weakness if you are going to switch out in addition to Kyorge.