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Sexism against males - why does no one acknowledge this?

Rezilia

319
Posts
10
Years
  • Age 30
  • Seen Jun 19, 2022
Silais said:
So you believe that your personal experiences constitute better statistics than the ones I provided? If you would like my resources, please read below:

2012 Gallup report link here:
http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.e...ics-studies/gallup-special-report-18oct-2012/



This link takes you to RAINN (Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network):
http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims



If these statistics aren't enough to prove my point, them I'm not sure what you are looking for. I would appreciate if you would tell me how and why these websites do not provide reliable statistics.
Click to expand...

313.jpg


^ From Google.

The LGBT statistics were done with 120K people.

000.jpg


^ Not enough of the population to be accurate, as far as I'm concerned.

--

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/feb/21/us-more-men-raped-than-women

^ Read the article to what it says about RAINN's statistics.
​
 

Magic Christmas Lights

Magic Manic
287
Posts
11
Years
BlahISuck said:
Okay, it's about time for someone to say it. A quarter/third/fifth of women will be sexually assaulted some time in their lifetime, not raped. There's a very wide spectrum within that crime, which is quite simply assault that happens to have a sexual nature. Assault is any kind of physical contact without consent. That's all. To interpret that as rape is misleading, because it's not the case. Most cases of sexual assault, at least in Canada, is some form of groping. About of fifth of those cases are of a more serious nature - that's split between sexual assault with a weapon and aggravated sexual assault - ie. rape, invitation to sexual touching and sexual exploitation.

It's also interesting how some of us can tell us how we were or weren't raised. I "received" a "communally based socialization, in which upholding harmony, not offending others, and also saying no is discouraged". I really can't disagree with any of those traits, lol. Maybe I should confront my parents about how they didn't give me a more masculine childhood? It's not just my parents though, its my teachers and my friends and everybody I bumped into - it's socialization, after all. I think that the way you're putting it is unnecessarily drawing lines in the sand that don't exist.

Also, I like how that this thread was about sexism as experienced by men, but we have to talk about women's issues in an overly generalized manner.



This is a good place to start. Men are pressured to be strong, and to sacrifice themselves. It's not something that one chooses to do as a male.
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Anecdotal evidence does not predict general trends. To what do you attribute the vast difference in victimization rates between men and women?
 

Kanzler

5,983
Posts
15
Years
Scarf said:
The reason women are brought up a bunch in these discussions is because we shouldn't create false equivalencies. We have to make sure that we don't say "Well, men have problems, too" without qualifying that or we may give the impression that men have as many and as serious problems as women. Particularly, if we did we might start focusing on some relatively minor problems men have in comparison to relatively serious problems women have.

Yes, it sucks to be part of a group that's considered no good with children and in need of always being masculine, but it sucks even more to be part of a group that gets passed over for leadership positions and that comprises the vast majority of targets of sexual violence. Don't discount all sexual assaults that aren't rapes. Nobody should have to feel violated in their person.
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Nobody's been making false equivalencies. In fact, nearly everybody on this thread has qualified whatever they said with the statement "women have it worse". This isn't a pissing contest about which sex is more victimized. To frame the question as such is counter to gender equality in general as well as what I interpreted to be the purpose of this thread, to have a space in which we discuss how sexism affects men. It's not difficult to make comparisons between men and women.

We don't need someone to tell us all the time that "women have it worse". We already do it every day. Part of the problem with recognizing the inequalities men face is people telling you it's not as serious. How about we actually have a discussion about what inequality faced by males is instead of judging without a discussion? Aren't feminists against comments like "it's not that serious" because it undermines the discussion that people are trying to make?

Nobody's been discounting sexual assaults either. The fact of the matter is that misquoted facts make understanding the problem worse for everybody. It causes unnecessary conflict and misleads people. I don't think anything more needs to be said about this. There seems to be paranoia that talking about the inequalities male face somehow undermines that of females, and so we must constantly remind ourselves just who "has it worse". It's unnecessary.

It difficult to attribute that to anything without taking a closer look. Women being raised as meek is not a good reason. Most rapes happen to somebody the victim knows, taking advantage of her - "a boyfriend" who doesn't give a ****. I don't think it's fair to frame the question in terms of a cleavage between men and women, because most men do give a ****.
 

Silais

That useless reptile
297
Posts
10
Years
  • Seen Jul 17, 2016
Rezilia said:

313.jpg


^ From Google.

The LGBT statistics were done with 120K people.

000.jpg


^ Not enough of the population to be accurate, as far as I'm concerned.

--

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/feb/21/us-more-men-raped-than-women

^ Read the article to what it says about RAINN's statistics.
​
Click to expand...

The NCVS is not completely accurate, I will admit. But as I had said in a previous post, I have already acknowledged that there is a dark figure of crime; that not all crimes are reported, and thus we do not truly know the complete, undeniable percentage. Based on data collection, these numbers are the most accurate to date. If you are looking for statistics that are 100% accurate, you will never find them. What we gather is never going to represent a population completely and thus we rely on the data we collect to give us a general idea of the actual percentage. If you look up "percentage of homosexuals in America" you will be unlikely to find a number higher than 3-4%. The estimate is around 3-4 million Americans are homosexual or consider themselves homosexual. And based on what we know about male sexual assault, 3-4% of males are, or will be, the victims of sexual violence/rape.

I will say it again: we do NOT know the true percentage, but we have gathered enough information to reasonably, logically and confidently produce these numbers. I am not going to retract any of my previous statements; I stand by the numbers I have produced.
 

CoffeeDrink

GET WHILE THE GETTIN'S GOOD
1,250
Posts
10
Years
Magic Christmas Lights said:
This isn't true. We live in a culture that encourages several things which lead to the sexual assault of women more than men. Women's bodies are objectified and sexualized in a dehumanizing way, on a greater level than men's bodies; the way we think of consent is flawed (we should be trying to provoke a "yes, I want this" rather than "no, I don't want this" to signal consent); and women are socialized differently. Women receive a more communally based socialization, in which upholding harmony, not offending others, and also saying no is discouraged. So when someone is bearing down on you in spite of that terrified look on your face, it becomes hard to fight back. You've been conditioned for years to not make waves, to not cause a scene. Men do not receive this kind of socialization. Also, women face the same issues with credibility, something like 97% of rapes go unconvicted. There's a reason why one in four women will be raped or almost raped while only three percent of men will be. Underreporting or not, that is a massive gap in who gets victimized.

The last part, people thinking women are saints, is putting women up on an unrealistic pedestal. It is a form of benevolent sexism, which is damaging in the same way normal sexism is. Women are penalized for straying from a pure, saint-like image. There's a reason why the "****" always dies in horror movies - it feeds on the stereotype that good women are pure.
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See, koff~

This is how the Catholics get away with molesting little boys. Nobody cares about the boys. Children (male and female) are both equally susceptible to the nasties out in the world. And I didn't say women are angels. What I said was that some people like to place them on pedestals, which is not appropriate (paraphrase). The fact that people keep ignoring the fact that men can be victims as well and aren't 'that big a deal' creates the problem imposed in the original posted question. It's also feeding into the 'Men should be warrior' stereotypes which then creates the 'women should be chefs' stereotypes. Sure, women are typically the victims in most cases, but it does not diminish the fact that victims who are men have to scrape the floor to get help.

It also is not the fault of the rapists or the women that result in a low conviction rates for rape crimes. I laid out certain reasons and tactics that can be used in the court room. The justice system is not perfect, but I would dare say that there are more claims of rape then there should be. A man can't just start yelling 'rape' and have a women carted off in cuffs, you dig? In cases of home and domestic arguments, this buzz word can send a man to jail for a period of days while he waits for something that he didn't do, koffi~

Also, I remember a certain program "Just say no" that was placed in effect. Saying that every woman is raised to say yes is laughable.
 
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Esper

Esper

10,769
Posts
14
Years
BlahISuck said:
Nobody's been making false equivalencies. In fact, nearly everybody on this thread has qualified whatever they said with the statement "women have it worse". This isn't a pissing contest about which sex is more victimized. To frame the question as such is counter to gender equality in general as well as what I interpreted to be the purpose of this thread, to have a space in which we discuss how sexism affects men. It's not difficult to make comparisons between men and women.

We don't need someone to tell us all the time that "women have it worse". We already do it every day. Part of the problem with recognizing the inequalities men face is people telling you it's not as serious. How about we actually have a discussion about what inequality faced by males is instead of judging without a discussion? Aren't feminists against comments like "it's not that serious" because it undermines the discussion that people are trying to make?

Nobody's been discounting sexual assaults either. The fact of the matter is that misquoted facts make understanding the problem worse for everybody. It causes unnecessary conflict and misleads people. I don't think anything more needs to be said about this. There seems to be paranoia that talking about the inequalities male face somehow undermines that of females, and so we must constantly remind ourselves just who "has it worse". It's unnecessary.

It difficult to attribute that to anything without taking a closer look. Women being raised as meek is not a good reason. Most rapes happen to somebody the victim knows, taking advantage of her - "a boyfriend" who doesn't give a ****. I don't think it's fair to frame the question in terms of a cleavage between men and women, because most men do give a ****.
Click to expand...
I'll concede I've been preemptively defensive. Bad experiences with this topic.


CoffeeDrink said:

See, koff~

This is how the Catholics get away with molesting little boys. Nobody cares about the boys. Children (male and female) are both equally susceptible to the nasties out in the world. And I didn't say women are angels. What I said was that some people like to place them on pedestals, which is not appropriate (paraphrase). The fact that people keep ignoring the fact that men can be victims as well and aren't 'that big a deal' creates the problem imposed in the original posted question. It's also feeding into the 'Men should be warrior' stereotypes which then creates the 'women should be chefs' stereotypes. Sure, women are typically the victims in most cases, but it does not diminish the fact that victims who are men have to scrape the floor to get help.

It also is not the fault of the rapists or the women that result in a low conviction rates for rape crimes. I laid out certain reasons and tactics that can be used in the court room. The justice system is not perfect, but I would dare say that there are more claims of rape then there should be. A man can't just start yelling 'rape' and have a women carted off in cuffs, you dig? In cases of home and domestic arguments, this buzz word can send a man to jail for a period of days while he waits for something that he didn't do, koffi~

Also, I remember a certain program "Just say no" that was placed in effect. Saying that every woman is raised to say yes is laughable.
Click to expand...
The Catholics? You mean some Catholic priests, yes?

The justice system is pretty broken all around when it comes to prosecuting rape since a victim is often put on trial to try to make it seem like they couldn't have been raped since they supposedly had the chance to say no or stop it somehow. In this sense men who are victims have a problem convincing people they can even be a victim in the first place on top of the regular problems of getting the law to believe you. I think the statistics are 1 in 10 rape victims are men, but don't quote me on that.
 

Crux

Evermore
1,302
Posts
11
Years
Feminism is corrupt.
Fighting sexism from one side is like screwing for virginity.
Don't get me wrong, I've met some legitly nice people, who actually just wanted everybody to get equal treatment, but the percentile when compaired to the number of 'Feminists' who just want all women to be treated better is miniscule.

And, of course, the media is corrupt, so they just jump on one bandwagon and try to shoot down the rest. There's a good reason why I don't usually go to mainstream media as a news source.

Feminists, Rights Groups, and those of ilk are doing more damage then good to be honest. You can't reach a consensus by working on one side.
 

Reecho

61
Posts
10
Years
Things like sexism are pendulums. When one group is wronged in some form or fashion, public opinion will shift, eventually to the other extreme if left unimpeded. Women were wronged earlier in history and the pendulum has swung back. Sexism, racism, or any other thing that is based off of "the person external" is inherently wrong. Sorry if this sounds preachy.
 
Esper

Esper

10,769
Posts
14
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Rococo said:
Feminism is corrupt.
Fighting sexism from one side is like screwing for virginity.
Don't get me wrong, I've met some legitly nice people, who actually just wanted everybody to get equal treatment, but the percentile when compaired to the number of 'Feminists' who just want all women to be treated better is miniscule.
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Have you got some source to back this up? I've met a lot of people who identify as feminists and that is not my experience at all. Perhaps you're referring to radical feminists, although even among those groups I'm sure "miniscule" is still a bit of a stretch.
 

Corvus of the Black Night

Wild Duck Pokémon
3,416
Posts
15
Years
My only question is what is wrong with people being themselves? Why does society have to shut either one down?

Also women aren't a minority society, lol they occupy half of the people. Regardless, people should be allowed to be who they are. jeez this is the issue with gays and all that... I wish people weren't so freaking shallow and close minded.

I work with kids and it just annoys the **** out of me whenever I see "Oh pink is a girls colour you can't like that"... says who? **** society, the concept of gender roles is so asinine in this day and age that there's no reason for either gender to be oppressed.
 

Toutebelle

Banned
122
Posts
11
Years
CoffeeDrink said:
This is how the Catholics get away with molesting little boys. Nobody cares about the boys.
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I'm Catholic and I have NEVER molested any boys. Watch what you say.

Anyway, the country of Sweden encourages sexism against men - Sweden forbids gender-specific marketing to children (as if a little boy is so likely to ask for play make-up or something). Sweden gives favorable treatment to women in EVERYTHING. A man can be strip searched by a woman but a man cannot strip search a woman. Swedish women are given money just for giving birth, even if they prove themselves to be terrible mothers. And a gross percentage of Swedish children never get to see their own fathers. Seriously, Sweden, do you even care about your male citizens? Blame it on Sweden being controlled by feminists - it's surprising that the prime minister is a man. I guess Sweden is to feminism as Saudi Arabia is to misogyny - taking it too far.

Considering Sweden's a very blond country, it only fuels into the disgusting myth that blond men are effeminate by nature. (Yet Norway, Finland, Germany, Poland, and Russia are also very blond countries and they don't treat men like that. Actually, other Scandinavian countries do get a little carried away with feminism too, but at least Norway, Finland, and Denmark treat men better than Sweden does.)

Actually, Sweden isn't feminist. It's feminazi. Real feminists do not advocate treating men as second-class citizens. It's just that feminazis have hijacked the feminist movement the same way that Islamists have hijacked Islam.
 
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twocows

twocows

The not-so-black cat of ill omen
4,307
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15
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Full disclosure: I consider myself a men's rights advocate.

This is a very simple issue to me. Men face a lot of problems, probably the most severe of which is the misandry present in the US legal system today. There are people who deny men have any problems whatsoever: those people are wrong. There are people who outright attack MRAs and those who support their message: those people are being malicious and should be called out as such.

Unfortunately, the MRA movement is quite varied and the message is sometimes inconsistent (though to be fair, the same can be said about feminism). Some people get turned off to MRAs because of an argument one MRA made that they disagreed with without realizing that many MRAs have different (and sometimes conflicting) agendas. However, this does not give license to anyone to deny men's issues or, worse, outright attack those trying to call attention to them. That is unethical and should be called out as such by everyone, every time it happens.
 
zakisrage

zakisrage

In the trunk on Highway 10
500
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10
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lollygag said:
I'm Catholic and I have NEVER molested any boys. Watch what you say.

Anyway, the country of Sweden encourages sexism against men - Sweden forbids gender-specific marketing to children (as if a little boy is so likely to ask for play make-up or something). Sweden gives favorable treatment to women in EVERYTHING. A man can be strip searched by a woman but a man cannot strip search a woman. Swedish women are given money just for giving birth, even if they prove themselves to be terrible mothers. And a gross percentage of Swedish children never get to see their own fathers. Seriously, Sweden, do you even care about your male citizens? Blame it on Sweden being controlled by feminists - it's surprising that the prime minister is a man. I guess Sweden is to feminism as Saudi Arabia is to misogyny - taking it too far.

Considering Sweden's a very blond country, it only fuels into the disgusting myth that blond men are effeminate by nature. (Yet Norway, Finland, Germany, Poland, and Russia are also very blond countries and they don't treat men like that. Actually, other Scandinavian countries do get a little carried away with feminism too, but at least Norway, Finland, and Denmark treat men better than Sweden does.)

Actually, Sweden isn't feminist. It's feminazi. Real feminists do not advocate treating men as second-class citizens. It's just that feminazis have hijacked the feminist movement the same way that Islamists have hijacked Islam.
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Yeah. Sweden really made me mad about the way they treat men. The problem is that Swedish feminists are VERY vocal. I've encountered a few Swedish female tourists and they get offended by everything courteous that a man can do. One of them was actually offended when a guy tried to hold a door for her! Isn't that ridiculous?

By the way, Sweden has the highest divorce rate in the world. Nearly three-fifths of all Swedish marriages end in divorce (and if you don't include immigrants, then the rate is even higher). That's higher than even the US.

Even worse, Sweden has the most liberal definition of rape. Swedish men can even be accused of rape by looking at a woman funny. It's this reason why Sweden has the highest instance of rape. It has nothing to do with Muslim immigrants. France has more Muslim immigrants than Sweden and there are fewer reported rapes there.

Feminism doesn't encourage this kind of attitude and in fact it only worsens gender relations.
 
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Magic Christmas Lights

Magic Manic
287
Posts
11
Years
zakisrage said:
Yeah. Sweden really made me mad about the way they treat men. The problem is that Swedish feminists are VERY vocal. I've encountered a few Swedish female tourists and they get offended by everything courteous that a man can do. One of them was actually offended when a guy tried to hold a door for her! Isn't that ridiculous?
Click to expand...

I can understand this. It is a bit patronizing, isn't it? Women are perfectly capable of opening their own doors; it takes less than five seconds and it's no problem. I get offended when guys pull out chairs for me and do other stuff like that. It's like, gee thanks for doing something that I could've done myself in two seconds. It doesn't really help the woman in a meaningful way.

It's called benevolent sexism, and it's still sexism even if it seems positive.
 

Kanzler

5,983
Posts
15
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It's true. I happen to hold doors open for men as well as women. I think it's rather preemptive for someone to assume that something's being done for them on the basis of sex - now that's prejudice and perpetuating the stereotype of opening doors as being some kind of sexist tradition.

Also, doing things for people is about service, not about oh you're a woman and you can't do it yourself. It's about the attitude, not about any material benefit really (because it's true, anybody /could/ do it themselves). I've have a friend of mine do all this in 'reverse', if anyone really wants to think about it that way. It's about showing someone you care that you actually do/treating them well if there's no real personal connection - i.e., service.
 

Kanzler

5,983
Posts
15
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I could go as far as to say '[getting] offended when guys pull out chairs for me and do other stuff like that' as an example of sexism against males - it's a judgement based on a pre-conceived notion that males are brainwashed into the traditions of patriachy instead of acting because they're thinking for themselves and they want to do it out of the bottom of their heart. It's dehumanizing because you're not looking at a man as an individual, only as the product of his environment and what society "told" him to do.
 

Magic Christmas Lights

Magic Manic
287
Posts
11
Years
BlahISuck said:
I could go as far as to say '[getting] offended when guys pull out chairs for me and do other stuff like that' as an example of sexism against males - it's a judgement based on a pre-conceived notion that males are brainwashed into the traditions of patriachy instead of acting because they're thinking for themselves and they want to do it out of the bottom of their heart. It's dehumanizing because you're not looking at a man as an individual, only as the product of his environment and what society "told" him to do.
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Holding chairs out isn't just polite behavior though, that really is can be something men do for women after years of conditioning that it's the "right" thing to do, and there are people that expect to get a pat on the head for it. Not in every situation, certainly not in the majority, but it does happen. You gave one very specific example that does not cover all experiences with door holding/the pulling out of the chair, etc. There are contexts where it really is about treating a woman delicately. Why is it a norm that the man pays for dinner on a date? It comes from this very subtle cultural belief that women are weak. I don't think most men would consciously endorse that, but that message is still there in our culture and influences behavior in a subtle, implicit way and it affects the shape that certain polite, expected manners take on. It's not about the individual man, there's nothing wrong with him and his heart is certainly in the right place. It's about the system, the underlying cultural values that implicitly affect us all.

I talked about benevolent sexism because holding doors open was being talked about in the context of chivalry (EDIT: after re-reading the post, maybe not), which is a form of benevolent sexism. The whole "he may or may not be doing it to be polite" was not part of that context. Yes, what you described is a form of sexism - going off stereotypes which are very likely to be wrong. Chivalry is also sexist. This illustrates what I'm trying to say a bit better.

I hate to turn this into another "sexism women face!!!!!" post in the thread about sexism against men, but I felt that commenting on benevolent sexism was worthwhile. It affects men negatively too, often putting too much pressure on them to provide. On the topic of men facing sexism, I think it's pretty unfair that men are expected (less so in the current generation, but I still see it) to provide the entertainment on dates, pick the venue, and pay for it. That's an awful lot of pressure and stress. Speaking of men being put into a providing role, I recently read a study whose conclusion was that men are judged negatively for becoming stay at home dads, even if the mother earns more than enough to provide for the family. That's not cool.

EDIT: Sorry I edited like a million times, I just kept thinking of better ways to word my thoughts ahaha.
 
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