You are right that I am personally more invested than I probably should be. I guess it's because until I went to America to see my boyfriend I had never really heard of gender fluidity and in seaking to understand it, it has become a bit of an obsession. Regardless, I will do my best to respond to what you said in your previous post.
I get what you are saying about finding the sense of community, and this is probably the biggest difference between living in England as opposed to America. Where I live (near Brighton - a very open gay community) means that the community has been there for me without me having to seek it out using labels. I used to take that for granted thinking it was the same in the entire western world. Now I know that homophobia is still a big issue especially in America, with LBTQ youths getting kicked out of their homes just for coming out to their parents.
That's great that you want to learn more about gender fluidity! What kind of research have you done? Have you read articles and stories from genderfuild people? I admit I don't fully understand it myself, but it's important to keep an open mind. :)
That's quite interesting, actually. I personally live in one of the big cities in Canada, and it's very LGBTQIA-friendly, so there isn't as much homophobia/transphobia here. But despite that, LGBTQIA people still tend to feel more comfortable in spaces and social groups they know are friendly, and those aren't always easy to find. That's the benefit of labels. The great thing about specifically having an LGBTQIA community is that those folks know they'll always be welcome there. Plus if you know you're surrounded by people like you, you know that they will support and understand you (or at least make an effort to), and you won't have to worry about persecution or discrimination.
I think that's the case with any group, though. I have friends who are fairly religious Jews, and while they have non-Jewish friends, they know that they'll always be welcome and comfortable within the Jewish community, no matter where they are in the world. Yes, I as a Jew will probably be accepted almost anywhere, but knowing that community is always there makes a difference.
(None of this to say that every community is perfect! As a non-practicing and atheist Jew I don't always feel comfortable in those communities. But it's still comforting to know that I can go anywhere and find a community of people who have beliefs and traditions that I know, and where I will be treated like family.)
Different definitions between gender and sex? Again you are right that we need a distinction between the 2 in terms of the biology and the psychology. My point is that people seem to put so much emphasis on their sex to dictate what they can and cannot do, in an age where people can do what they want regardless of sex. Go back 100 years or so and I could understand why some people don't like being separated into male/female brackets but now things are different. Being male or female doesn't mean nearly as much anymore as it did 100 years ago.
I realise at this point that I am not making my arguments as clear as I would like, mostly because I am still learning about how I truly feel about this. The points I try to put across make sense in my head but then I write them down and they sound silly and weak. But now I'm getting off topic. Hopefully this post will help explain myself a bit more.
I don't really agree that people feel quite so limited by their sex anymore. People are constantly breaking down those barriers in awesome ways. It's true that societal pressure still makes it difficult for men to use makeup or wear dresses, but even that is slowly being eroded. I think this will only improve with time.
However, I need to emphasize that people are not transgender because "I like dresses, but since I was assigned male at birth, that must mean I'm actually female" or "I like sports, so I'm probably a boy." That is not what being trans is. Men can be feminine and women can be masculine, but that doesn't mean they're transgender. Additionally, transgender woman (meaning male to female) can still be masculine, and transgender man can be feminine. That tends to confuse a lot of people, but
gender identity and gender expression aren't the same thing (refer back to the Genderbread Person I posted on page 1). Like you said, that's the great thing about gender identity; it's a spectrum, and anyone should feel free to be as feminine or masculine as they want, regardless of their gender.
Since I am cisgender, I cannot tell you exactly what being trans feels like (just as I could never explain what it feels like being gay), so I really encourage you to read trans people's stories to get a better idea. In writing this reply, I asked my trans friend about her experience, and one thing she said was
"if you ask yourself "am I trans?" and you don't already know the answer inside, you're probably not." That was her experience, and it may not be the same for all trans people - it's just one of many perspectives you'll find out there.
Wanting to mutilate your own body parts and pump yourself full of hormones is being a danger to yourself, plus they kill themselves a lot more than normal people. This is especially true of those non-gender dysphoric people who instead want to chop off an arm or blind themselves. A waste of perfectly healthy bodies really.
Not all trans people do hormone replacement therapy or gender reassignment surgery, but I hardly see how either of those things are a "danger to yourself" or "a waste" when done safely under the care and guidance of a medical professional.
Actually, we know from research that the reason that suicide rates are so high among trans people is
due to a lack of acceptance and an abundance of discrimination and violence. Sources:
trans people and violence, homicide and rape,
trans people and poverty,
trans people and job discrimination,
trans people and house discrimination and homelessness,
trans people and medical care.
Buuuuuuut studies have shown that
trans people with support from their parents are 57% less likely to seriously consider suicide. So attitudes like yours are actually what result in higher suicide rates.
Bigotry, now there's an actual buzzword. I don't care how you or "trans" people feel, nor am I required to. My purpose here is to remind you and others that live in a liberal echo chamber that some people will never believe you and will oppose crap like transgender bathrooms or giving hormone therapy to children so young they aren't even able to consent to sex, let alone having a sex change. When you find a provable, scientific cause for this mental illness I will begin to take these people more seriously.
You can pretty much replace most of those talking points to be about gay people. We're still waiting on "a provable, scientific cause" of homosexuality, after all, but that doesn't mean gay people don't exist and shouldn't be respected and given the same rights as anyone else.
I do not know what a "transgender bathroom" is, but I can also assure you that hormone therapy is reversible, and often the hormones given to children are ones that merely postpone the onset of changes due to puberty. This then allows them to decide how they want to proceed at a later time.
Gender definitions confuse me. And most people will probably put that down as me not having any issues myself and being an assumed cis male.
But the thing is... I'm not masculine? I don't fit the stereotypical male in many ways. I have plenty of feminine and neutral characteristics but I still define myself by my literal sex. So it somewhat confuses me :(.
That's totally okay! I've always been a bit of a tomboy myself, and some days I feel more girly than others. That doesn't necessarily mean either of us is transgender. Anyone should feel free to be as feminine or masculine as they want! But that's not really what it means to have
gender dysphoria.
I believe children who show attitudes or behaviors that are not typical of their culture's gender roles do not necessarily experience gender dysphoria or identify as transgender or gender nonconforming, and just as I am against religious indoctrination of extreme and mature themes for children, so too am I against "progressive" indoctrination of children who are too young to understand their feelings to be fit into a box of an alternate gender identity, based on quirks that their parents are left up to interpret and feel the need to immediately act on in an invasive transition for said child.
I'm pretty sure most people are on your side, actually. However, I've seen this argument a lot, and it just reminds me of people who claim that parents will indoctrinate their children into being gay.
Let's seriously consider this idea that parents would somehow
encourage their kids to be transgender. To go back to kids and homosexuality, most parents
don't want their kids to be gay because they know how huge an impact it has on one's life, and how gay people still aren't fully accepted today. It's unfortunate, but it's the truth. But even the most liberal of people living in the most liberal of places know that being trans comes with an even
bigger set of obstacles compared to being gay (see all of my links about discrimination towards trans people in response to Limerent). Plus, transitioning costs
in the tens of thousands of dollars. To be accepting is one thing, but to "indoctrinate" a child into being transgender, even if subconsciously, verges on ridiculous. What kind of parent sincerely wants that for their child? The only answer I have is "someone who isn't fit to be a parent," and I think we can all agree with that.
If a person ever comes forward and says "my parents convinced me I was transgender, but they were wrong," it would be worth discussing. But right now I really see
no reason to believe that this is really a thing that happens or that will happen.
Aren't gender identities entirely based on roles/biases/expectations? If men and women were 100% socially equal, then we wouldn't have genders, only sexes.
In the real world we live in, gender identities are more than gender roles. Trans people are not trans because they think "I am a stay-at-home-dad and enjoy cooking and cleaning, so therefore I must really be a woman." How they feel within their bodies are also a factor (but again, not all trans people hate their bodies or want to change them). Again, reading trans peoples' stories can help in understanding this.
I don't think we can assume that genders wouldn't exist if men and women were equal, because a) that's so far removed from our reality that it's hard to realistically imagine, b) it's not just about social equality, and c) many trans people want to change their physical bodies (aka their sex).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but when I read "Gender roles/biases/expectations are cancer that need to be brought to remission" I thought you meant we have to get rid of them. What I'm saying is that if we get rid of those roles/biases/expectations which inform both gender identity and gender expression, then wouldn't we be getting rid of gender altogether in the process? Gender is socially constructed, is it not? Animals have sexes but not gender because they do not live in societies with ideas and abstract concepts of how different individuals relate to one another. We humans on the other hand have ideas about what it means to be man or woman and how man or woman behave or should behave. If we get rid of those ideas, then we wouldn't have the source of gender anymore.
I personally find the idea of moving to a non-gendered world charming, but I don't think it's realistic. Gender is so central to our identities, whether you're cisgender or transgender. More realistic, and in my opinion more healthy, would be to move to a world where anyone can feel free to express themselves however they want without being limited by stereotypes or taboos (within reason).
You make many valid arguments. Unfortunately, "my kind of ambition" doesn't necessarily mean being rich or being esteemed by random people. I would rather not go into more detail, but let me assure you that I've done my research. Considering that this is the Round Table I'm posting in, I suppose a dismissive answer like that would be disappointing (or at least unexpected). It did provoke a detailed reply from you, so my comment wasn't a complete waste. XD
And yes. People who rely a lot on their race to determine their identity probably also lack the type of ambition I seek.
I'll be honest: I don't know why you felt the need to say this. It contributes nothing to the conversation and makes no effort at engaging in the topic, which is the whole point of this section. The fact that you admit that the only reason your post "wasn't a complete waste" was because it "did provoke a detailed reply" from me suggests you are aware of this.
~Psychic
