So this thread got me a lot of notifications so--happy day!--people actually care. At least a little bit. I was partially afraid no one would respond, but you guys proved me wrong. I am a bit disappointed in the direction the discussion went, however. I do like that we're discussing this whole clique issue but it was not the point of this thread, more so the point of it. The fact that it became such a big topic makes me think that I may have hit a sore spot in the aforementioned clique, but I think all of that can be solved while making PC a better place for beginners. Also I'd like to apologize for taking so long to respond. I have a lot of responsibilities (that I'm currently ignoring to respond to this) that I have to fulfill.
I'm just going to go through and respond to each of these. If a post goes over what I already answered (or what I think I already answered) I'm not going to mention it here.
Okay!
I'm inclined to disagree. Whilst I can see why some of us come of a bit cliquey since we talk a lot on Skype there's plenty of RPs here that are perfectly open to people who are newer to roleplaying and I know that the majority of us who GM do our best to help beginners rather than chase them out. In fact, there's actually been quite a few newer RPers/GMs come into the RPT. Off the top of my head LinearAxel, JohnnyMustang, Merlin, Milotic and desinishon are all newer to the corner and they aren't the only ones.
I guess, aside from some of us being really close friends, I just don't see where you're coming from at all. I think that the RPT has become a lot less elitist in recent years and I know for a fact that most of us are thrilled to see new faces around here.
While it is nice that all of the RPs made are open to everyone, that doesn't take away from the fact that Advanced RPs are often intimidating to beginner RPers. Especially if there's nothing written in the OP to encourage them. And I never said that the RPs prevent people from coming into the RPT. I don't doubt we have new people coming in often, Pokemon is a popular topic, same would be true for RPing. The other subjects we have here are also great for attracting other people. It's the fact that we have a huge lack of RPs that less skilled players are comfortable joining or feel welcome to join. PTA seems to be the only one other than RPs made by other beginners that aren't joined because they usually aren't made well (though that can also be improved by making RPC more beginner-friendly). I think it's also important to know that someone new to the forums is not necessarily going to be a beginner RPer.
I'd also like to comment that being less elitist now than in the past doesn't mean the problem is fixed. Just improved.
I'm sorry you feel this way. I do agree with you to a point that it can be very intimidating for new RPers to branch out and RP like the way they want to. But I can say that I used to be one of the new members, and still am really, and can say that I really enjoy it here. One just has to feel confident in their writing but be open to feedback. I can say that I really appreciate several members who have been GMs or just members in a skype chat for giving me advice on my writing. My first ever post was absolute trash when i made it, but I like to think I have made progress and I thank the people I've RP'ed with for being the reason. Something as simple as reading their posts has been a major reason for my writing getting steadily better.
I don't get the clique vibe at all. I get more of the "long time members who talk with each other a lot and have become friends" vibe. I know that if i asked for help, more than enough members here in the RP section would be happy to help.
As fort those who aren't as good at RP'ing, I feel I can say on behalf of the RP community, and for sure myself, that we would be happy to help them out in their writing. I understand feeling scared or nervous about asking for help from such good writers but we are all extremely nice and want this community to be great.
Anyways I again am sorry that you feel this way. If there is anything I can do to help, reach out to me!
That goes for any member that feels their writing is not as good. No one should feel bad about their writing. It's one of the greatest stress relievers I've found and a lot of fun to immerse yourself in your own and other's stories! :)
I'm glad you're having such a great time in the RPC, but anecdotal evidence is only that. Anecdotal. It doesn't prove an argument wrong unless you have substantial evidence.
Unfortunately, not everyone is like you. There are a lot of people who aren't confident enough to try and join an RP regardless of their skill level and there are less people who are confident enough to ask for help. I've noticed (and I think this is true) that writing is a lot like drawing. If you don't think you've produced something outstanding, you're not too excited about showing others. This is especially true when you're with people you perceive as being much better than you. Not everyone, of course, but most people feel this way. It's hard to break in when you don't think you're good enough to take that big leap into an RP that might be at a higher level that you are. This is even more true if you think that you'll be rejected based on your skill and there's nothing to tell you that's not the case.
I'd also like to say that the friendship asset is a big part of this too. If you don't come into PC with friends and you aren't the type to just talk to someone and try to form a relationship, then it gets a bit harder to really break into the community. There is nothing here that encourages new or old members to meet new RPers and make new friends. That is, unless you're brave enough to join a more advanced RP where they have Skype chats. I will say that Skype improves the making friends and breaking out issue a lot. You get to talk to new people, discuss your RP, and hopefully build confidence. However, again, that is only if you're already brave enough to join an RP that has a Skype chat which is most usually the advanced RPs. The RPT Skype Chat doesn't require this but is not a public space so it doesn't do any justice. Something like a welcome thread of an open RPT chat would improve the meeting people issue.
I am going to be entirely honest. I agree with Kikpanther in many aspects of their post, though I believe they did word some things rather awkwardly looking back on it.
There is a distinction on the RPT that sets apart beginner style RPs from that of advanced RPs. It may not be noticed by many, but its there. Its not necessarily a barrier of skill and length, but also how attractive the RPs can appear to a person just getting into the writing scene. Beginners will not post in 'advanced' RPs, even if their grammar and writing style are well enough to get by.
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Now, I agree that there is a clique, though this isn't necessarily a bad thing. A lot of time, I see a RP mentioned in the skype group targeted towards the GMs particular group of friends. Its mentioned there, and as soon as its posted, the skype chat is blown up with the news that its been accepted and the friends of the GM flock into RESERVE their spot.
This stops a lot of beginners from getting the chance to get in the RP when there is limited spots. Hell, when there isn't, the fact that a large group whom have obviously RPed together for awhile coming into a thread can intimidate literally anyone. I wouldn't really say this is a problem in its entirety, but it is a thing that has been happening a lot recently and needs to be addressed.
I'm going to be entirely honest and say that's totally your fault? I told you I didn't like the way the OP sounded and sent it to you to proofread and you said it was fine. XD
But onto the rest of the post... I figure I should try and define what an Advanced RP and what a Beginner RP is in case anyone was confused by that or just didn't understand me.
Advanced RP: An RP for advanced roleplayers. These RPs expect high-quality character creation, grammar, writing technique, and all that good stuff. Some Advanced RPs have word counts and some don't, either way, they expect lengthy replies from the players (usually more than one or two paragraphs). There are also many Advanced RPs (though it is more common in Advanced RP Forums) that dictate the type of faceclaim (or picture) is required for a character and if they are required. Advanced RPs generally have well thought out/deep plotlines and are generally more aesthetically pleasing than Advanced RPs. Advanced RP Forums are usually very strict when it comes to these factors.
Beginner RP: An RP for beginner roleplayers. These RPs do not expect high-quality anything from the RPer. The requirements are generally that whatever is written is readable for the GM and that they like the SU. Posts can be any length they want to be though they are generally a paragraph or less. Plotlines in beginner RPs are not usually as well developed, are much shorter than an Advanced RP, or have a never-ending style kind of like PTA. A lot of beginner RPs, but not all of them, have unlimited spots.
Intermediate RP: An RP for intermediate roleplayers. Not advanced and not beginner. Generally have more Advanced leanings than Beginner does.
As you probably already know, RPC is not a forum that has requirements that would denote it as an Advanced RP setting. It is very much a Beginner Forum that allows users to make Beginner to Advanced RPs. I also decided to add in the Intermediate option since it does exist but isn't as common as the other two I don't think. Most of the RPs we have here have Intermediate to Advanced leanings rather than Beginner. Now I'm not saying that the Advanced RPs we do have are in any way as strict as some of the characteristics I've listed for the Advanced RP category. This goes back to my mention in the post that the Corner tries to be an Advanced RP forum more than it does try to be a Beginner Forum. In truth, if we did a lot of comparisons and debating, we might be closer to Intermediate, but that doesn't take away from the fact that our Beginner RP experience is pretty lacking. Like I said before, Intermediate or Advanced, I don't think we give the encouragement to Beginner RPers like we should.
Going on to Quest's next point, I'd also like to say that having cliques are not necessarily a bad thing. People have friends, friends form groups, cliques naturally happen. It's impossible to escape cliques. It's when cliques dominate social spheres (or in this case, dominate RPs) that it becomes a problem.
Like I said before, the RPT Chat is a great place for people to get together to make friends and collaborate, but it doesn't work if it isn't public. As a private chat (or invite only, since people can get into the chat if they're invited in) it enhances the clique issue. Maybe the Corner has less of a clique vibe when you don't know the Chat exists, but when you do know that it exists I think you can see it creates a problem. I think the biggest one is that the majorities of RPs here are thought up in and discussed within the Chat. The RPs discussed there are usually made for the people in the Chat to join. This creates the flocking to reserve as Quest says.
I think we can all see that the majority of the RPs here are made and joined by the same people. Whether it be because of cliques or because of intimidated beginners, that has to be a sign of a problem, right?
I don't have time to write a lengthy response right now, but just addressing one of Quest's points: what do you suggest we do about the "flocking to reserve" thing, then? I don't see how we could forbid friends to RP together, and I also don't think it sounds reasonable to try and do that. However, as a GM myself, I recognize the scenario and have been wanting to get more new faces in. I think rather it's up to the GM what people to let in to the RP than something we need to officially regulate though? People here are responsible. People can be responsible GMs. Or maybe that's what you were trying to get at; the mindset of GMs needs to change?
Eliminating or changing the rules of reserves would be a pretty instant fix for this. Getting rid of reserves automatically makes signing up a fair game. You can even improve that by not auto-accepting the first finished SU, but judging it by its quality, concept, and/or the enthusiasm and willingness of the RPer.
And I don't mean to say we need to regulate who gets to be in and who doesn't get to be in RPs. Like I said before, we need to make PC more accepting to beginner RPers. That can be through the encouragement for the generation of more Beginner RPs made specifically for, or are more open to , beginner RPers. I think it'd be especially helpful if these Beginner RPs were made by advanced RPers so they can help beginner Rpers improve their skills. More stickied threads about better character creation and improving ones writing will help. A welcome thread or an open RPT Chat will also help. There are a lot of ways we can improve the situation, an open discussion can help us with generating ideas.
I'm busy trying not to rip my keyboard in half because I just lost my 1k word response to the OP. It was nice, but I'm not writing that out again. :'(
All I'm going to say is, if anyone would like an example of how an RP community is built, look up an RP called Titans. It was made this previous year, by myself, and I was very new to the RPC at the time. Almost none of the users that signed up knew each other in the beginning, with a few exceptions. We had mods, newbies, old-timers, and lurkers. The RP didn't last very long, but I talk to almost every one of those people now somewhat regularly.
That's how it should be. People RP together, and build communities. People shouldn't be afraid to try new things, and they shouldn't keep people from trying them.
Sorry to hear that Bidoof! =/ I have completely lost all drive on entire threads because of things like that. If you're on Firefox there is (or at least, was when I was using FF) a plugin called Lazarus that saves your writing for you so you don't lose it if your page gets deleted somehow. :)
I also think what you put up is/was a great example. We need more of that here at PC. I think the key to your example is that ll of the players were new or didn't know each other. We barely have that in the RPT anymore. Like I said before, the majority of RPs here are made by the same people and played in by the same people. There is hardly any variety and opportunity for new people to meet new people. People shouldn't be afraid to try new things and meet new people, but they are and we should make RPC a more encouraging place to make more cases like Titans.
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Now to the beginners RP part; If a beginners RP is poorly made then that's the GM's fault. What do you mean by properly advertised?
How do you know exactly, when an RPer is unknown to the forum?
About the elitism and clique: You said it yourself, this isn't a small community; As in real life, elitism and clique-ishness are common. Sometimes, some people get along better with a specific group, personalities varies vastly. This happens in every section of PC. It also happens in every little part of the world. This is no one's fault and it is not something to be fixed.
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Although I do agree with the fact that there are very little resources to help unskilled writers, but I think everyone knows this. If you raised all these questions, you might have some thoughts about it and I would like to hear them.
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I have to be honest, I'm not entirely sure I understand your points here? It mostly seems like your saying "okay so there's a problem, problems happen all of the time, so what?" which frankly doesn't make sense to me. If you see that here is a problem or that something can be improved why wouldn't you improve it?
But going on to what you said...
Properly advertise meaning if someone made a beginner RPs for beginners they didn't say it was a beginner RP. Also, I don't know every single person on PC but there are a lot of RPers within PTA that I have seen only within PTA. And I doubt the couple of people who post in and make threads/RPs are the only people that visit the RPC.
Also, your point about clique-ishness and elitism being everywhere isn't a very good point? There are many organizations that try and eliminate cliques or grouping completely so people aren't alienated or bullied as a result. My college has restrictions to eliminate cliques so? And like I said before, nothing is wrong with having friends. It's when that group begins to dominate things is when it becomes a problem.
I've already addressed some of my thoughts on this in this posts and I think improving RPC. The parts of your post I didn't quote has already been answered somewhere else in here.
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Thirdly, we have the Starting Pad filled with guidance, hints and help, and a place to ask questions should there be any. On top of that, I think in general GMs have been very willing to help and guide newcomers (and even encourage them to join things) lately. Or actually, not even lately. Always. I might be blinded somehow, but I have never (in the last 5 years at least) felt like people can't get help here if they seem to need it. Remember how people almost literally jumped at a chance to greet a newcomer and provide help when they poked their face into the old Roleplay Discussion thread? c:
As for people who join and create RPs with the same RPers over and over again, that is really up to the RPers themselves. Which I also touched on in my previous post. We can't police the wants and preferences of people, only do our best to cater for as many wants and preferences as possible.
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In all honestly, I totally forgot about The Starting Pad. Though now that I am remembering it, I think that it is a bit old. While the information in there is helpful I think a lot of it could use some nice updating (I'm sure the people who made old threads in there have learned something new) so the information is more up to date or more detailed and fleshed out. It could also use more of a variety of topics to help people who have unexpected questions. I think some of the subjects of the threads here are evidence that we need more guides and information.
And I remember the Roleplay Discussion thread, but the Roleplay Discussion thread doesn't exist anymore so there isn't nearly the amount of asking and jumping like there used to be.
Sure making RPs for friends is up to the players, but that doesn't make it less of a problem. As I'm saying for I'm sure the third time now, there's nothing wrong with having friends. You can RP with just your friends if you want to. People do that for many reasons. They aren't confident enough to RP with strangers, they don't want to RP with other people, or maybe even time constraints. I for one have started only joining RPs GMed by friends because my time schedule makes it hard for me to post and they'll be much more forgiving about my inactivity than someone I don't know that well.
The problem comes when the vast majority of RPs available are RPs made just for friends. This comes back to my earlier point that if you don't come in with friends, you don't have many places to go. I've already talked a bit about ways to fix this up top.
I realized that in my short little summation I left out a few of the key points I wanted to make previously, before Chrome ate my response.
In the spirit of keeping things constructive, I think we should focus on what we can do to make the RPT better, as well as addressing any problems that may arise. My suggestions:
- To me, it sounds like people just need to talk more. More communication, more opportunities for discussion, etc. This includes private conversations as well.
- Second, I've heard divided opinions on this, but possibly someone experienced could run an "Intro to Roleplay" type RP, (as opposed to just writing it off as a beginner RP, which for some reason has a negative connotation for most) where people could learn about how we roleplay here in a less intimidating format, or just work on improving their writing skills. It could be open to everyone, that way people who already have experience could join with the intent of making connections with some newer faces. Just a thought.
- Just wanted to add that it's I believe it's sort of healthy for someone to bring up this kind of thing once in a while. It forces us to look at ways we can improve the RPT, and addresses possible concerns that people may have. Hopefully we never become a community where people are discouraged from sharing their constructive opinions.
Just quoting this here to show that this is a good example of what I'm talking about. I think these are good suggestions towards improvement and hopefully we can expand on these when the conversation continues in whatever format.
Though I'm not totally sure what you mean by "Intro to RPing". Do you mean an RP that works as a tutorial or a guide?
NGL I empathise with the OP on a certain level. When I first came back to PC's roleplaying scene in 2015, I did feel a little left out and had that "the newbie" feeling stuck on my head. I mean, with stuff like Titans collab (in which almost everyone was involved in), people constantly discussing ideas about JPs, and veterans having many nostalgic trips, it was easy to feel excluded (not to mention timezones and other factors). But then I realized that it was me, where the issue lied. I wasn't being proactive myself. Sure, the RPT community may feel a little "clique-y" but I fail to see where there is an elitist atmosphere (and trust me, I know about elitism; the community was way worse in 2010/2011 *coughRPAcough* which was why I left). I was not shunned from the community despite only having signed up for one roleplay, nor did my freshness prove to be a problem with future roleplay signups. Honestly, when I began to participate more and become more active in getting to know the people, it felt as though I was already old friends with them and that I was merely reunited. It is human nature to group together and have some sort of common identity; there is no way to stop such a behaviour. As long as healthy relationships are being forged, I fail to see a problem. I think I can safely say that nobody here wants to feel excluded and nobody here wants to make others feel excluded, especially in a setting that thrives on inclusivity. [That being said, it's counterproductive waiting for someone to extend an invitation (which may also be seen as imposing) if one is reluctant on coming out of their shell.] To echo gimmepie, the RPT has been seeing a stream of new faces, and it doesn't hurt that we have a little alliance with the WoPC forums. :D
To directly answer the thread title, I'd say no. This isn't a place for beginners. There are no "beginners" here. Nobody is "more/less advanced"than anyone else here. To judge and compare one's writing with another, is an act of conceitedness. There is no way one can define solidly what a "beginner" or an "advanced" roleplayer is. A "beginner" roleplayer may have plenty of experience being a solo writer and merely wanted to taste the art of collaborative writing. And to categorize roleplays like that is to restrict creativity, as well as further divide the community. I've seen this kind of thing done before, in Marriland's roleplaying forums (iirc; they no longer have such a thing, I wonder why) and RoleplayerGuild. It's not really welcoming to say the least...
NGL, it's very easy to criticize something, but it's very hard to actually do something. I am guilty of that myself. If you want more "beginner RPs", why not make one yourself, rather than deflect responsibility onto others? I like to think that the current mod team is doing a fine job running the RPT, and thus, perhaps the question to be asked is, is there a demand for "beginner" roleplays? Food for thought.
I feel like this is highly loaded and bordering on false accusations/misinformation, but I'm sure it was unintentional. Also, I feel like I hardly see you around, and I think you're a person with lots of ideas and opinions that are worth sharing, so why not come visit us in our regular haunts and realize that perhaps you may have a few misconceptions about the RPT? :)
edit: TL;DR I don't see a real clique problem (but it is good to have such concerns) and anyone is free to join our skype chats and events. TBH I'm kinda sick of the regular faces like Foxrally (ew) and I want to meet new faces.
Again, I'm going to say anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, but you make a good point about you having to take the first step in integrating. However, as you may know this isn't an easy step. I'm not saying we have a problem because that step isn't totally eliminated for new people who come into the forums. There is obviously a level of personal responsibility. I think the problem is is that the RPC lacks that encouragement that gives new RPers the extra confidence to take that step.
I'm going to have to disagree with your second point, though. I don't think acknowledging someone as "beginner" or "advanced" is necessarily a sign of elitism or restricting of creativity. I don't think it's hard to tell where someone is in terms of skill level in creative writing based on what they put down on paper. Some people are more skilled than others in all aspects, that's totally unavoidable. It becomes elitist if you treat someone differently, have preconceived notions about them, or shun someone because of their skill level. And I'm not saying anyone here does that, it's just an example. Beginner RPer, while it also applies to people who are new to RPing, is mostly a judgment of skill level than anything. And, of course, skills can always be improved with help and willingness. As for the creativity comment I don't think saying an RP is Advanced or Beginner stumps creativity. While I did put up definitions for Beginner and Advanced above, they are in no way the rule. You can easily make what could be considered an Advanced RP but intended for Beginner audiences which is what I personally prefer, tbh.
I also don't understand the deflecting comment? What am I deflecting? I haven't been accused of anything? Aren't I trying to do something now by bringing up this issue and trying to facilitate discussion? If I had just said "PC sucks and this is why" and ended it at that okay. But I stated a problem and I opened the floor up to possibilities on how to fix it. As for making an Beginner RP myself, I do have a PMD RP in the works (almost done to, though someone beat me to it!) that was made with a beginner audience in mind. Though I will admit it was a bit muddled because I did also end up making it for friends who desperately needed to RP (though they have to compete just as everyone else does). The new PMD RP might help that a little, but...? I don't know, it really depends on interest and I have some backup plans for everyone involved just in case. Other than that I had an idea for a never-ending style Beginner RP to replace PTA since it seems like it's struggling a bit to survive. Though I don't think that what I'm doing entirely matters since I've taken the first step to make this a community mission. I can't fix the problems in RPC by myself. It takes everyone to do that.
As for not being around much. I have been around the forum since Atlantis Arising (with a three month hiatus in between). I just only come on to post in the RPs I'm in (mostly in JP format tbh) rather than post around the forum since I don't really have enough to say to make a big thread about it. That and I don't get the community vibe from PC at all. I know things have been changed and improved since then, but I don't get the same bustling sphere that I got during the times of Atlantis so I don't see many reasons to come on. The emphasis on Skype chats, I think, have made the place seem more empty. I know people make threads, but with the existence of the entire RPT Chat they seem more like attempts to keep the "main forum" from dying than anything. (Just an opinion, though. Not really anything that has to do with this thread). Other than that, I also have friends on PC that I talk to on Skype that only make their appearances for posts as well. And that whole "only joining friends RPs" thing I talked about before is a factor too.
I used to be apart of the RPT Chat but I wasn't too big of a fan of the discussions there so I left. Maybe if it was made into a true RPT Chat by going public I'd try to join again, but it wasn't my cup of tea. I might have been suffering from that not-getting-involved syndrome that you had but it's done and I'm not upset about it.
Also how could you get tired of something this cute????
I don't think that there is elitism per say, but I do think that there is a bit of a clique problem. However I don't really think that is something that we are able to fix, some people just get along with other people better than others, and that's just part of society. And as for using Skype, I think that can make people think that we are being elitist in some way, not including others in our conversations. But that can be a tool to use within a group of roleplayers as well, so I don't think that using Skype as an example of elitism is a good one...
However I think that the major problem that this place does have is a lack of more basic roleplays. I've gone on to a couple other sites for short amounts of time looking around, and from what it seems like a lot of other sites do is they have different difficulties in terms of the roleplays. They have one section for easy roleplays that are a few sentences to a paragraph where beginners can kind of get a hang for it, or where experienced roleplayers can go to do a more relaxing less demanding story. Then they had intermediate and advanced, each having more length and quality expectation required in each category. Maybe that's something that we need to do, try to cater to those who want to have basic and fun roleplays, as well as longer ones with more expectations required.
I know that for one is something that bothers me when I roleplay with other people is simply quality of writing. Maybe that is elitist of me, but I have roleplayed with people in the past with little things about them that just seem to get irritated at them, whether is was grammar or a garish CSS or their personality in or outside of the RP. Maybe that's something that I need to work on as a person, be more accepting of others in general including their mistakes.
I think the Skype problem goes back to what I was saying about the RPT Chat and the comments Retro Bug made. There is an RPT Chat, but it isn't publicly available to everyone. Sure it has been referenced, but if it was really public then there would be a stickied thread or dedicated posts advertising it. This only extends to the RPT Chat, though. Obviously Skype rooms for certain RPs should be exclusive to those RPs. The commonality and problem with cliques I have already discussed.
I have seen what you're talking about as well and when I see the lack of different kinds of rolplays in PC, a place that doesn't advertise itself to be only for one type of roleplay, it concerns me. I know that you can make whatever roleplay you want, but I think it's important to make spaces for less skilled writers to feel comfortable in and improve their writing without fear.
And no, I don't think your preference for who you roleplay with is a sign of elitism. Everyone has preferences. Elitism comes in with the way you treat others/your perception of others (and sometimes yourself) based on skill. Making more Beginner or Advanced or Intermediate RPs will help make it easier for you to get into spaces where you can RP with people at your skill level.
I wasn't going to join in with this, but I want to point something out regarding this, and only this.
I myself also do protest against become official, however my reason for this does not include the one you listed here. In fact, I would argue many people also do not feel this way. This is proven by the fact that a) anyone who asks gets in pretty much straight away b) people not even in the RPT have been added in at some point before. We aren't "selective" about who gets in, it's just we have to let them in if this isn't official.
The reason I myself don't want the chat to become official is because then the rules of the chat have to be hardened to mimic those of PC. And should that happen, a lot of the fun, banterous and quirky conversation we have would disappear.
Saying that we "select" who gets in suggests that we seclude people because we don't we don't want them around. The fact that there have been, and will in future be arguments and disputes in the RPT and RPB suggests otherwise. That statement is, in my opinion nearly entirely wrong, and sheds the entirety of those involved in the RPB in a very bad light.
I don't understand how picking the people you want to be in the chat isn't selective? And I don't understand the "hardened by PCs rules" thing. What is so strict about PCs rules that it wouldn't also automatically apply to the chat?
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The notion that RPs are made for a certain group seems a bit crazy to me. There is indeed a group that seems to join each others RPs a lot, but in honesty, it's the group of 40~ active RPers that are in multiple RPs at the same time, and dedicate a lot of the time to this section, so a lot of RPs will have a lot of returning faces. Even RPs not made by people that are part of the active regulars here have multiple of these people in them, so I think it's more a volume thing. A lot of RPs here don't have a player cap, so the fact that people join each other's RPs doesn't create a problem there. People will flock to RPs they find interesting, and it helps if people they know are in it/GM it. But, generally, RPs with settings they are interested in are still joined, and there is without doubt room made for newer people to join in. As I said, literally every single RP I've been in, I've RPed with at least one new person, but most of the times it's more than that.
I feel like I mistyped something terribly, or forgot to make a point in this post, but I'm getting a bit tired, so let's just hope that I haven't, haha.
The stuff I took out I either addressed/agreed with but didn't want to take up space/think is a good suggestion for improvement.
As for the RPs made for certain people thing:
*DISCLAIMER: These lists are taken from the OP so please take into account any name changes. All of these lists are from RPs that are closed for applications/started/were made in 2015.
There's variation here and there, but I think you can see there is a lot of the same people. It may not be intentional (and technically it's not against the rules) but it's happening.
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If someone can't make a RP that garners interest for whatever reason, they should hold off and join another RP to whet the appetite. I personally don't recommend people seek out guides on a role-play forum on how to write because with my experience in other places it's the blind leading the blind, but someone can look at the original post of a successful or active roleplay and glean elements from there to compare with what they attempted, and hopefully learn from the differences.
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If there are "elites" and you're bothered that you aren't "elite" at role-playing, then it sounds like someone wants to get in on an exclusive crowd, or go on a witch hunt to seek out and tear down the bourgeoisie they aren't a part of. True elitism in an rp group is shunning or actively shaming people however they can, only letting in their designated crowd of people while they make it a point to call themselves superior, or imply you are inferior with some shady tactics or outright blatancy to prevent the plebians from trickling in. Being good at writing amidst other good writers is not elitism. People who aren't confident in themselves to join a group that would otherwise take them in should they give it a shot should not call the people they put on a pedestal elites.
And, tbh, I am not that 90% statistic. That's poor rhetoric, jumping the gun by punctuating your argument with the accusation that anyone who may possibly disagree with you somehow doesn't count, as per your bogus generalization. As for me, I'm not an rp activist here. I don't care enough to be in something like a clique, especially not on some subforum for pretending to be a Pokemon Trainer, for instance.
A Pokemon forum with a role-play section has no obligation to coddle people with an assortment of writing guides for beginners. Someone wants to join a roleplay but they can't write well and want to learn how to write better? Well, if it isn't a learning disability preventing them, I'm sure paying attention in English class can help with how to improve one's writing skill. I'm sure someone can Google "how to write well" and get just as many expert journals from English professors, child-oriented worksheets from elementary school teachers, peer-level advice--helpful or just as uninformed--on public "answer" feedback forums like YahooAnswers or a separate RP site that pulls up in the search engine results.
Look, I'm just going to say right now, the only person who can boost their own confidence is oneself. Yes, there are boosters and slights in the form of other people, but if you don't have the drive to do it, or you have such fragile sensibilities, then how unfortunate. The encouragement you get on a role-play forum is in joining a role-play and interacting with the other participants, those whom you feel like you may have a level of understanding with, or whom you may admire. If you can't encourage yourself to jump in, it shouldn't be everyone else's duty to seek you out and swaddle the newborn. That's what introduction threads are for, that's your initiation to the community. That's your praise for your mere presence. Now, go out and connect. Be sociable on this text-based medium.
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I thought the argument with your bae was that this forum isn't so friendly to beginners. If a beginner is not joining an advanced rp, then they are joining something more fitting to beginners. Then that's not a problem. Their desire for something lesser and creating/joining it solves itself.
I agree with the point that reserves with limited spots are a waste of time. I was surprised entering this forum that people here reserved and were allowed to. When I make a roleplay (I've yet to make one here and am hesitant for reasons not specific to this forum), I do not allow reserves. The issue with reserves is that people put in a reserve, and they forget about it, or procrastinate. Maybe they weren't really too sold on the rp, but they thought they'd get the inspiration to post a character later, and they at least would have a spot saved to make sure, whenever they get around to it. And then they don't kick their rear in gear until there's a notice that the reserve deadline has or will be met very soon, and then they throw something together last minute. Or worse, they rear their ugly head in to complain or seek pity. And GMs who are desperate for their rp to start with a full cast may even extend that reserve because they are hopeful, and that further denies entry from other potential participants in a space that would have otherwise been cleared up.
None of this would happen if people just post their finished applications when they have the time to. I, as a GM, don't like waiting on people and expecting them to keep their word and come around before my reserve deadline. I, as a potential applicant, don't care to see a full list of reserves in what appears to be limited spots, when I can have my application filled out in the same day of being completely sure of wanting to join.
But being intimidated to a role-play because a lot of people have already signed up is no one else's fault but the person feeling insecure. There are people who join late in the game. That is no excuse.
This is a niche subforum. You will have a certain number of people who are active and join a number of role-plays, some at the same time. Is it their fault of their interest? If you eliminate reserves, those names may very well still be there. What would be the alternative in that case, that they not be so active so as to let other people in?
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Again, the parts I deleted I already answered.
As for the rest of this... I have to be honest I am confused by a lot of what is written here. So I'll try to take this one point at a time. Honestly, these leftover parts have me a bit disappointed that this is the most liked post. I was much more pleased by other responses to this, dissenting or not.
Your first point about no guides on a roleplay website. What? So you're saying that we shouldn't have roleplay guides because the people who write them don't know how to write well anyways? Is that what you're saying? I honestly hope not. Even if (in your opinion frankly) the guide isn't from the hand of God, anything that can help someone improve is helpful. You don't need to be the best selling author to make a guide. And suggesting that someone have to read through entire RPs to improve is also a bit ridiculous. First of all, if the guides won't be good enough then why would the RPs be good enough? Second, not everyone has the time to read an entire RP and imitate what they see to improve when a guide works just as well. I really don't even like the implication that writers who want to get more skilled should just copy the things more skilled players do. While borrowing what you like is always helpful, writing style is a big factor to anything you produce that's written. You shouldn't just copy what someone else does on the false pretense that since that person is good you have to write like them to get better. Unless you're talking strictly grammar and the rules of the English language (or whatever language you're writing in) that's just completely untrue.
Also, I don't understand how thinking someone is a better writer than you is seeking to join an exclusive crowd? Is it because the word "elite" is being used or??? Just because you want to get to the level of a more skilled RPer doesn't make you "bourgeois-seeking" or whatever analogy you were making here.
As for the elitism here I'm just gonna address it now since I skipped over it in previous posts. I made this comment because I remember commentary about being better writers from people here in the forum. Maybe that is just a feeling I got from the forums after I heard that. I don't know, but that's where it is coming from. And it was a while ago as well, so I'm not saying the people/person who said it didn't change their minds.
So for the 90% thing, not really sure where the "those people don't count" thing came from. I never even said that. If that's what you got out of it, sorry. I more meant to say that if you're within the clique you're more likely to say it's not a problem. That's what people do, especially if they feel attacked by something. Honestly, by some of the comments, I think people thought I was trying to attack whoever I thought was in the clique. Maybe in some attempt to tear them down, but that is far from the true. However, being in a clique somehow mean your opinion doesn't matter. If that was the case why would I even post the thread? I mean, 90% is a lot. I think it was clear that was more of an exaggeration than an actual testament to the problems in the RPC. Especially since this discussion isn't even supposed to be ABOUT the clique thing in the first place. Honestly, it was just supposed to be a supporting point. After that I think you just went even way more off base. I don't think anyone here is an RP activist and the whole "especially on a subforum for pretending to be a Pokemon Trainer, for instance". This is just? What? I really don't understand this inclusion and honestly
this sounds a bit elitist. Is there something wrong with being on a subforum about Pokemon? Because you make the idea of having a clique here sound ridiculous and silly. Like having a clique is more worthy in a "more sophisticated" or "more realistic" RP setting. I honestly
really hope this is not what you meant.
I'm also really hoping you just had bad word choice for the bolded part next. I bolded this because this part was a shocking to me with what you said. Are you really implying that someone might not be good at roleplaying because they have a disability, don't pay attention in their English classes, or need to review elementary level worksheets?
Seriously? You can't be serious and I really hope you're not. You do not need to actively bully someone to be an elitist. The things you say and the things you do determine that as well and this frankly sounds really elitist to me. Honestly, it does. I'm even more shocked that you would use a guide off of another RP site as possible help even though you
already said it doesn't help. Or even imply that someone could easily find or even need to find scholarly articles on creative writing techniques as an alternative to members of the RP forum they're already on giving out advice. Roleplay forums may not be obligated to do anything, but that doesn't mean it's not a good thing to do. What's wrong with being helpful and improving the site as a whole?
And like I've said before, yes, getting connected to people is also a responsibility of the person who wants to be involved. However, saying "oh well too bad for you" or assuming that person is fragile or infantile is
pretty insulting when giving out an extra helping hand isn't backbreaking work and something the members have said they would do anyways.
"I thought your argument with your bae..."? What? I'm not sure if this is supposed to be sass or sarcasm but I really need you to hold it back. I do have a name you can call me by. Unless this is some jab at the fact that we're friends? In which case this is even more confusing. And the argument
still is that the forum isn't friendly to beginners. If there aren't Beginner RPs to join then where do they go? Off site? Your point didn't prove anything except that we might potentially be losing members for the forum. I would think the problem was solved if I wasn't also convinced that we
want people to stay in the RPC.
Okay, next bolded part.
WOW! I'm not a fan of reservations either, but this was totally uncalled for. Reserving a spot doesn't make someone lazy or uninspired or whatever you were trying to say by this. This is extremely insulting to anyone who likes using and allowing reservations and I really think you should have thought this through before you said it. I think this part is just as, if not more, elitist than the last bolded section. Not reserving doesn't somehow make you the better person and reserving doesn't make you detrimental to an RP as you implied.
And I think Quest may have worded this part a bit poorly here or maybe that was how he felt about it. With how quickly people are accepted here on RPC, a full set of reservations almost guarantees that the RP is going to be full straight away. People rarely drop or miss their reservation so another person can jump in. It's even less likely that you'll be accepted despite a reservation. Not signing up because of that isn't a weakness or whatever you are trying to imply here.
With 50+ RPers here in the RPC (according to Ice's post) I don't think it's unrealistic to expect to see more than a couple of faces around here. Especially with the high level of traffic the entire site gets. I think it's really
really hard to believe that out of the thousands of people on PC, less than 100 have the desire to RP.
Anyways, that's the end of the replies. I'm sorry if I got a bit aggressive at the end there, but that just really turned me around. If I didn't address something here please tell me about it so I can get to it, but I think I got everything.
If everything is cleared up now I think we should focus this thread more on how we can improve the beginners situation on the website rather than the whole clique thing. (Again, that was not the point of this thread). I think by talking about this we can make a better situation for everyone here at RPC. Even if things seem fine now, if there's a possibility of improvement I really don't see why we shouldn't take that chance!
