Gender

So um. i've never really started a serious topic before.. ah ;v; um. so. how do you guys feel about gender? do you think you were born as the gender you were assigned? if not, why? and when did you find out? are you out to anybody? do you think any other genders other than female and male exist?

How I feel about gender: I feel that it is very complicated and a social construct created to make people feel left out or odd if they are not those two genders that are male and female.

Do you feel you were born as the gender you were assigned?: To be fair, I am still figuring that out. I don't know. Somedays I feel extremely uncomfortable in my body, and somedays I don't. I don't know, really. I'm still figuring out who I am and how I label myself. I found out possibly a year ago maybe? Yes, a year ago I think around this time.

Are you out to anybody?: When I thought I was genderfluid or nonbinary, I did come out to my facebook friends. But now I am not so sure about myself and I'm not really out to anybody about my gender issues. It's very difficult for me to talk about to be honest.

Do you think any other genders than male and female exist?: Yes. I think there is genderfluid, nonbinary and many others that I may not know about at this time.

i'm bad at making serious topics I'm sorry ;v; just, uh, answer the questions and have a discussion c:

I think gender is a very straight forward concept. Your sex depends on which Chromosome pairing you have. Males have XY and females have XX. As a human, you a biologically bound to this gender assessment. In rare cases of hormone inbalance you can get people who have aspects of the opposite gender physically. But to answer your question, I think that gender makes sense and is scientifically explainable.

I do think I was born as the gender I was assigned, because I am. I'm a boy, and definitely not a girl.

I think this idea of other genders existing is purely psychological, and perhaps it can be related to biological means such as homosexuality may be. If you feel lost, I think it might be worth consulting a professional. There's nothing wrong with feeling differently, and thankfully, in today's society people are more accepting. I say, don't worry and take the time to figure things out.

Biologically it's not really confusing. If you're having troubles mentally accepting your gender, then that's totally cool. Don't worry too much, you'll come to your own conclusion eventually. I'm not really qualified to give that advice because I've been a straight male all my life, but I think it'd apply :D

I am transgender. Was born male, but nope not male as it turns out :v

And yeah, it's really stupid how we teach kids that there are "boy toys" and "girl toys." Like, does it matter? I think an even worse argument is that pink is a girls color, and so on.

Sex is purely biological, gender isn't. Your sex is physical, while gender identity is mental. Here's a basic definition of Gender. "Gender is the range of characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between and from masculinity and femininity." I believe that gender might be socially constructed to a certain degree, but I really don't know how much and we can only really make assumptions.

Even though I'm a 'normal' cisgendered female I think that it's natural that some people don't feel comfortable in their bodies because who we are at birth is. well.. completely freakin' random to us. >__> Sometimes I wish I could have surgery to make myself prettier, but even surgery wouldn't make me look like a model. I honestly think it's so unfair, but we need to learn how to accept and love ourselves because some things can't be changed, and we all have beautiful characteristics about ourselves that we take for granted! I don't wanna get too off topic though~

Also I'm sorry that you are dealing with body dysphoria because I can't imagine how uncomfortable that must be to deal with at times. :/ If you ever want to talk more in depth about it or anything VM me and I'll try to help. :)

I view gender strictly as a biological concept. Society's view and construction on the roles of each gender are a different issue and honestly they should all be ridden of. The concept of gender was created relating to what is determined by one's biology and assessing the strengths of one and the other. (However, as FBI stated earlier, hormone imbalances may be a factor.) If you feel alright with what your biology dictated or not, it's another matter and, in my view, simply part of your personality - in which we are all different and there's no need to stick a label on everything. Labels are driving us apart and creating rifts by emphasizing our differences when they should drive us closer and celebrate our similarities.

Before you start to rage on me: In absolutely no way do I discriminate or think lowly of those that do not feel alright with their biology and I will not treat them differently because of that. You are, first and foremost, a human being to me and I will treat you as such, and the same way I would treat any other; you can identify as whatever the hell you want, I couldn't give less of a shit. You're a human. However, my sexual and romantic preferences take into account a person's biology. (As in, if you don't have the female reproductory system I will not date you or engage in sexual intercourse with you, no matter what you identify as)

I was born as male, and never really had any doubt that I feel good with what my DNA determined.

(First time I post on this matter and will not bother to do so again.)

Cultures throughout history and all over the world have recognized that gender isn't as simple as we're often led to believe. Here are a few dozen examples of cultures with varying gender identities, including a third gender, a non-binary identity, and transgender identity.

Research on gender has been slow-going, but we're learning more and more about what gender is, and just how much of it is socially constructed. We've always had very strict ideas about what is "male" and what is "female" in terms of biology, appearance, behaviour, labour and interests, but those concepts are incredibly outdated and false. They create boxes we feel forced to fit into, limiting our freedom, creativity and individuality. Discarding those ideas benefits people of all gender identities.

A big part of what we know now is that gender and sex are two very different things. It took me awhile to wrap my head around it, but the following chart really helped, so I hope it'll do the same for other people!



If you don't believe there's more to gender than cismales and cisfemales, please consider listening to trans people and hearing their stories. You may be surprised by what you hear. :>

~Psychic

Katalyst said:

I view gender strictly as a biological concept.

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I just want to point out you're confusing sex and gender. This might help out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction .

tl;dr sex has to do with genitalia, gender has to do with the societal constructs of male/female.

As for gender I'll state that I've never really personally cared much for being related to either gender. I suppose you could identify me as agendered. Relating to that I'm sexually closer to asexual but perhaps saying demi would be more apropriate? Romantically I'll admit a female preference but under the right circumstances and with the right person I might not mind a dude. Admittedly I've never really felt the need to sort out my gender, sexuality or anything because I've never felt any pressure.

I don't really think there's anything to "come out" about with agenderedness and asexuality because you're essentially just seen as a sad lonely heterosexual. It also makes it pretty easy to act in "normal" society. That being said my brother (biologically sister) came out to our family, her school, and extended (conservative Christian) family.

I think that genderedness is an entirely personal choice that no one has any right to intervene with.

As for thinking that other genders exist I think it's easy to answer this with some logic. The idea of a male and female in a societal concept had to be created ergo brought into existence. Therefore I don't think it's a stretch to assume that if we invented male and female identities based on sex then there should be more that are not based on sex.

What I don't understand is that humans are animals right? But people use different definitions for the same term for humans and other animals. When you say what gender your dog is, all you are asking is whether they have a penis or a vagina. It should be the same for humans in my opinion. There are other examples as well such as asexualality. In other animals, asexualality means the animal has sex with themselves (e.g. worms) but in humans we mean the person doesnt have sex at all.

These multiple definitions unique to humans are quite frankly ridiculous and cause more harm than not. Anyway, going back to gender, the reason why gender (as opposed to sex) is such a ridiculous notion is because it is based on social stereotypes that could change at any moment. There was a time when it was socially unnaceptable for women to wear anything other than a dress or skirt. Now they can wear whatever they want. Similarly, years ago, blue was the "girl's" colour whereas pink was the "boy's" colour. Now it's the other way around.

To the OP, if you have a penis your gender is male. If you have a vagina you are female. If you have both you are a hermaphrodite. That's all. Now if you happen to be a male who likes things that are typically things females like/do, that doesn't make you any less of a man. You are still a man, just a man who likes things other men don't. There is nothing wrong with that and you don't need to use made-up terms like gender fluid to justify your likes and dislikes.

Midnight shadow said:

What I don't understand is that humans are animals right? But people use different definitions for the same term for humans and other animals. When you say what gender your dog is, all you are asking is whether they have a penis or a vagina. It should be the same for humans in my opinion. There are other examples as well such as asexualality. In other animals, asexualality means the animal has sex with themselves (e.g. worms) but in humans we mean the person doesnt have sex at all.

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You...may want to do some research before making posts like this, just fyi. For one thing, as has been explained by multiple posters, sex is biology, gender is identity. The two tend to be used interchangeably, but if you want to talk about language and words then you should know these definitions. When you talk about whether a dog is male or female you're talking about its biological sex. We don't know what a dog's gender identity is because dogs don't really have the capacity to conceptualize gender, and even if they did, they would have no way of communicating it to us. Humans are different because we can do those things.

Additionally, you're confusing asexuality with asexual reproduction. Asexual reproduction is when someone reproduces without having sex, and people who identify as asexual are not interested in sex. The reason they sound the same is because "a" means "not" and "sexual" means...sexual. So asexuality as a sexual orientation makes sense, and asexual reproduction as a means of reproduction also makes sense. The thing about language is you're allowed to use the same word in multiple ways.

Midnight shadow said:

These multiple definitions unique to humans are quite frankly ridiculous and cause more harm than not. Anyway, going back to gender, the reason why gender (as opposed to sex) is such a ridiculous notion is because it is based on social stereotypes that could change at any moment. There was a time when it was socially unnaceptable for women to wear anything other than a dress or skirt. Now they can wear whatever they want. Similarly, years ago, blue was the "girl's" colour whereas pink was the "boy's" colour. Now it's the other way around.

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Your first sentence honestly does not make sense. Human gender and sexuality are ridiculously complex (have read any academic papers on the subjects?), and we need terms to be specific. That's just how it works.

For transgender individuals, it's not just about "I like dresses, so I must be a girl." In fact, there are trans women who can be masculine, there are trans men who can be feminine, and there are trans individuals who are androgynous or don't even fit in the male/female boxes. We obsess a lot over how trans people need to "pass" as the gender they identity as, and that's actually pretty harmful to both cis and trans people.

Midnight shadow said:

To the OP, if you have a penis your gender is male. If you have a vagina you are female. If you have both you are a hermaphrodite. That's all. Now if you happen to be a male who likes things that are typically things females like/do, that doesn't make you any less of a man. You are still a man, just a man who likes things other men don't. There is nothing wrong with that and you don't need to use made-up terms like gender fluid to justify your likes and dislikes.

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No, if you have a penis your sex is male, and if you have a vagina your sex is female. Your biological sex is not necessarily related to your gender. If you're going to complain about how we use words, then you should be using the correct ones.

Also...every word is made-up. That's how words are created. But even if these words were "made-up," how does that make them any less legitimate? These concepts are still very real and treated seriously in the academic, psychological and medical realms. This isn't really a solid argument.

~Psychic

Psychic said:

You...may want to do some research before making posts like this, just fyi. For one thing, as has been explained by multiple posters, sex is biology, gender is identity. The two tend to be used interchangeably, but if you want to talk about language and words then you should know these definitions. When you talk about whether a dog is male or female you're talking about its biological sex. We don't know what a dog's gender identity is because dogs don't really have the capacity to conceptualize gender, and even if they did, they would have no way of communicating it to us. Humans are different because we can do those things.

Additionally, you're confusing asexuality with asexual reproduction. Asexual reproduction is when someone reproduces without having sex, and people who identify as asexual do not have sex. The reason they sound the same is because "a" means "not" and "sexual" means...sexual. So asexuality as a sexual orientation makes sense, and asexual reproduction as a means of reproduction also makes sense. The thing about language is you're allowed to use the same word in multiple ways.


Your first sentence honestly does not make sense. Human gender and sexuality are ridiculously complex (have read any academic papers on the subjects?), and we need terms to be specific. That's just how it works.

For transgender individuals, it's not just about "I like dresses, so I must be a girl." In fact, there are trans women who can be masculine, there are trans men who can be feminine, and there are trans individuals who are androgynous or don't even fit in the male/female boxes. We obsess a lot over how trans people need to "pass" as the gender they identity as, and that's actually pretty harmful to both cis and trans people.


No, if you have a penis your sex is male, and if you have a vagina your sex is female. Your biological sex is not necessarily related to your gender. If you're going to complain about how we use words, then you should be using the correct ones.

Also...every word is made-up. That's how words are created. But even if these words were "made-up," how does that make them any less legitimate? These concepts are still very real and treated seriously in the academic, psychological and medical realms. Focusing on linguistics is probably not the wisest choice, here.

~Psychic

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Question: why do we need separate definitions for sex and gender? What purpose do they serve? Every human is unique and people are naturally going to like different things. Who gives a damn if you don't fall into the typical "male/female" stereotype? It's like saying if I like watching cartoons that are typically aimed at children does that make me any less of an adult? Do I need to use another word to justify myself watching cartoons? I believe we need to move away from this idea of giving ourselves endless amounts of lables to define who we are. We are all people, and we are all unique. We need to accept this and not try to fall into categories based on social stereotypes that are constantly changing.

Midnight shadow said:

Question: why do we need separate definitions for sex and gender? What purpose do they serve? Every human is unique and people are naturally going to like different things. Who gives a damn if you don't fall into the typical "male/female" stereotype? It's like saying if I like watching cartoons that are typically aimed at children does that make me any less of an adult? Do I need to use another word to justify myself watching cartoons? I believe we need to move away from this idea of giving ourselves endless amounts of lables to define who we are. We are all people, and we are all unique. We need to accept this and not try to fall into categories based on social stereotypes that are constantly changing.

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Answer: we need words to talk about things. That is the purpose of language. We need specific words to talk about specific things so we can be precise. Try telling an anthropologist that they don't need separate definitions for things, because "we are all people"! Gender and sexuality occupy a huge space in academia, and trying to write a paper or have a discussion on a topic without having any words to describe the precise things you're talking about would be ridiculous, wouldn't you say?

It is incredibly fortunate that many of us do not need to find specific words to define our identities. It's great that a lot of people can say "I don't believe in labels" and live by that. However, it is ignorant to assume that this means that labels have no value. In being able to label ourselves, we take ownership of our identities, empower ourselves, tell the world who and what we are, and we can find others like us in order to create community. Until we live in a world where everyone can be a special snowflake and not be asked "what is your gender/sexuality/race/nationality/religion/hobby/etc," having labels simply makes sense for people.

Why do we need separate definitions for sex and gender? Because they are separate things. Because in doing so we can be more precise, and can identify when we're talking about biology and when we're talking about psychology. If you want to do some research into gender studies and can make a case that researchers and psychologists and doctors are wrong to make this distinction, I would be happy to hear it.

It's great that you think people shouldn't care whether people fit into male/female boxes, but why are you then so invested in telling people that the way they identify is wrong and that the words they use are bad? If everyone should just be themselves as you say, what do you have against their specific ways of doing so?

~Psychic

Psychic said:

Answer: we need words to talk about things. That is the purpose of language. We need specific words to talk about specific things so we can be precise. Try telling an anthropologist that they don't need separate definitions for things, because "we are all people"! Gender and sexuality occupy a huge space in academia, and trying to write a paper or have a discussion on a topic without having any words to describe the precise things you're talking about would be ridiculous, wouldn't you say?

It is incredibly fortunate that many of us do not need to find specific words to define our identities. It's great that a lot of people can say "I don't believe in labels" and live by that. However, it is ignorant to assume that this means that labels have no value. In being able to label ourselves, we take ownership of our identities, empower ourselves, tell the world who and what we are, and we can find others like us in order to create community. Until we live in a world where everyone can be a special snowflake and not be asked "what is your gender/sexuality/race/nationality/religion/hobby/etc," having labels simply makes sense for people.

Why do we need separate definitions for sex and gender? Because they are separate things. Because in doing so we can be more precise, and can identify when we're talking about biology and when we're talking about psychology. If you want to do some research into gender studies and can make a case that researchers and psychologists and doctors are wrong to make this distinction, I would be happy to hear it.

It's great that you think people shouldn't care whether people fit into male/female boxes, but why are you then so invested in telling people that the way they identify is wrong and that the words they use are bad? If everyone should just be themselves as you say, what do you have against their specific ways of doing so?

~Psychic

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You are right that scientists need to have those specific words in order to be precise. But I'm not talking about scientists. I'm talking about your every day average person. I should probably clarify at this point that I am not against labels in general. They can be very useful for the reasons you specified. What I'm against is the mindset a lot of people have in needing to justify their actions and motives by using labels to try and fit into certain groups. Remember those old cartoons set in middle or high schools where everyone was split into their stereotypical groups. There were the Jocks, the Nerds, The "cool kids", the glamour girls, the cheer-leaders, etc. Kids at that time were obsessed with a sense of belonging to a particular group and this whole Gender thing is no different.

You can identify with yourself anyway you wish, but you shouldn't feel that you need to label yourself and be in a particular group to know who you are. That is what I'm fighting against, the idea that if you are male you should be like x/y/z and if you are female you should be like a/b/c. In this day and age (in the western world at least) your sex doesn't dictate what you can and cannot do so be who you want and do what you want without feeling the need to justify yourself by using labels.

Midnight shadow said:

What I'm against is the mindset a lot of people have in needing to justify their actions and motives by using labels to try and fit into certain groups.

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But the rest of the world uses labels and we live in that world. Lemme use a recent example to explain.

In North Carolina the city of Charlotte passed a law that said it was okay for people to use whatever bathroom. Higher up the government chain at the state level they passed a law to stop this (which they have the legal power to do, usually) that said you could only use the bathroom that matched the sex/gender you were assigned at birth. Basically, if you were trans you wouldn't be able to use the bathroom that matched your gender.

We can (hopefully) all agree that this move was dumb and hurtful and probably done out of fear and not understanding. The thing is, if you are a trans person you probably don't want to be associated with the gender you were assigned at birth. If the law is trying to force you to do that, it's going to be uncomfortable and potentially dangerous for you. Ideally you'd not have that kind of law, but since it exists you can only fight against it by explaining what it means to be a trans person, by using definitions to fight against the misconceptions of other people. If we don't use labels, don't have terms for different expressions of gender and sexuality, then someone is going to act on a misconception because they don't know any better. That can cause harm.

Midnight shadow said:

You are right that scientists need to have those specific words in order to be precise. But I'm not talking about scientists. I'm talking about your every day average person. I should probably clarify at this point that I am not against labels in general. They can be very useful for the reasons you specified. What I'm against is the mindset a lot of people have in needing to justify their actions and motives by using labels to try and fit into certain groups. Remember those old cartoons set in middle or high schools where everyone was split into their stereotypical groups. There were the Jocks, the Nerds, The "cool kids", the glamour girls, the cheer-leaders, etc. Kids at that time were obsessed with a sense of belonging to a particular group and this whole Gender thing is no different.

You can identify with yourself anyway you wish, but you shouldn't feel that you need to label yourself and be in a particular group to know who you are. That is what I'm fighting against, the idea that if you are male you should be like x/y/z and if you are female you should be like a/b/c. In this day and age (in the western world at least) your sex doesn't dictate what you can and cannot do so be who you want and do what you want without feeling the need to justify yourself by using labels.

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Except that your everyday, average person benefits from having these specific terms as well. The more we learn about human gender and sexuality, the more people become knowledgeable about the subject, the more people benefit from being able to 1) explore their identity in new and exciting ways, or 2) put a name to their identity and find others like them. People in the LGBTQIA umbrella have faced indescribable discrimination throughout history and to this day, and being able to form a community of support and understanding is hugely beneficial. We have proof of this: for example, because "LGBTQ students are at higher risk for suicide, in part because they are more often targeted for bullying and discrimination," "LGBTQ youth and heterosexual students in schools with anti-homophobia policies and Gay-Straight Alliance clubs had lower odds of discrimination, suicidal thoughts and suicide attempts." There are similar studies showing the same thing – having a place where you know you'll be accepted and understood makes a huge difference.

As I said before, trans people do not want to transition because they think "I'm a boy but I can't wear makeup, so I must be a girl." If it was that simple, then trans people wouldn't go through the psychological evaluation, the hormone therapy, the sexual reassignment surgery, and other surgeries and therapies (all of which costs thousands of dollars). They wouldn't endure the struggle of choosing the right bathroom and getting the sex marker changed on their official records, not to mention all of the social stigma and discrimination that trans people face on a daily basis. I would highly encourage you to read trans peoples' stories to better understand their perspective.

I don't really know what else to say without repeating myself, as you haven't really responded to the last 3 paragraphs from my previous post. You're claiming that labels divide us, and have yet to provide any proof. I just don't see why you're so personally invested in not having labels for gender identity, considering it doesn't affect your life while significantly benefiting others.

MiracleGhost47 said:

I let my actions define my identity, not my gender. I expect nothing less from anyone wishing to be my friend. It's not that I'm a transphobic bigot, it's just that people who focus so much on their gender tend to lack my kind of ambition. At least, that's all I've noticed so far. Regardless, I wish you luck on your identity quest.

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"It's not that I'm a racist bigot, but the people who focus on the fact that they're not white aren't really ambitious."

I hope you realize how that sounds and will reconsider this frame of mind. I don't know what "my kind of ambition" means, but my impression is it sounds like you don't think "people who focus on gender" can be ambitious or successful. If that's the case, I'd like to point out that while, like other LGBTQIA people, trans people tend to struggle more financially because of the job discrimination and the housing discrimination (which are legal in most of the world) and high rates of homelessness trans people face, on top of that, transitioning also costs thousands of dollars. That definitely makes things harder.

But in spite of all that, all you have to do is Google successful transgender people to see plenty of "ambitious" and successful transgender folk, non-binary folk, and other people who don't fit in the cismale/cisfemale boxes. And that's not to mention the esteemed authors, academics, anthropologists, psychologists and doctors who focus on gender (cis or otherwise).

It's great to hear you're still supportive, but imo we have to consider the world that trans people live in and the unique struggles they face, and the fact that many have been able to do great things regardless. :)

~Psychic

I think all gender identities exist somewhere along the binary spectrum between male and female. The reason for this is that male and female gender roles were derived from differences between the sexes. Other gender identities were derived from male and female gender roles. I think there is a male-female dimension of gender but no further dimensions.

Psychic said:

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I don't really know what else to say without repeating myself, as you haven't really responded to the last 3 paragraphs from my previous post. You're claiming that labels divide us, and have yet to provide any proof. I just don't see why you're so personally invested in not having labels for gender identity, considering it doesn't affect your life while significantly benefiting others.

regardless. :)

~Psychic

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You are right that I am personally more invested than I probably should be. I guess it's because until I went to America to see my boyfriend I had never really heard of gender fluidity and in seaking to understand it, it has become a bit of an obsession. Regardless, I will do my best to respond to what you said in your previous post.

I get what you are saying about finding the sense of community, and this is probably the biggest difference between living in England as opposed to America. Where I live (near Brighton - a very open gay community) means that the community has been there for me without me having to seek it out using labels. I used to take that for granted thinking it was the same in the entire western world. Now I know that homophobia is still a big issue especially in America, with LBTQ youths getting kicked out of their homes just for coming out to their parents.

Different definitions between gender and sex? Again you are right that we need a distinction between the 2 in terms of the biology and the psychology. My point is that people seem to put so much emphasis on their sex to dictate what they can and cannot do, in an age where people can do what they want regardless of sex. Go back 100 years or so and I could understand why some people don't like being separated into male/female brackets but now things are different. Being male or female doesn't mean nearly as much anymore as it did 100 years ago.

I realise at this point that I am not making my arguments as clear as I would like, mostly because I am still learning about how I truly feel about this. The points I try to put across make sense in my head but then I write them down and they sound silly and weak. But now I'm getting off topic. Hopefully this post will help explain myself a bit more.

Limerent said:

There is no such thing as gender, only sex. If you want to mutilate your body parts you should be in an asylum. If you really insist on this crap don't cry when people like me don't recognize it, it was your own decision to embrace insanity.

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So, what qualifications or experiences do you have to justify your point of view? Personally I think you're just using a buzzword to justify your own bigotry.

Insanity, craziness or madness is a spectrum of behaviors characterized by certain abnormal mental or behavioral patterns. Insanity may manifest as violations of societal norms, including a person becoming a danger to themselves or others, though not all such acts are considered insanity; likewise, not all acts showing indifference toward societal norms are acts of insanity. In modern usage, insanity is most commonly encountered as an informal unscientific term denoting mental instability, or in the narrow legal context of the insanity defense. In the medical profession the term is now avoided in favor of diagnoses of specific mental disorders; the presence of delusions or hallucinations is broadly referred to as psychosis.[1] When discussing mental illness in general terms, "psychopathology" is considered a preferred descriptor.[2]

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Insanity is a very broad and hard to define term and there's a reason most people working in the psychological field avoid it. You could argue that gender dysphoria is a psychological disorder, but

Gender dysphoria or gender identity disorder (GID) is the formal diagnosis used by psychologists and physicians to describe people who experience significant dysphoria (distress) with the sex and gender they were assigned at birth. Evidence suggests that people who identify with a gender different from the one they were assigned at birth, may do so not just due to psychological or behavioral causes, but also biological ones related to their genetics, the makeup of their brains, or prenatal exposure to hormones.[1]

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I think using the term insanity is a bit of a stretch. I think perhaps rather that stepping all over people who don't fit your narrow scope of the world, you should actually make an effort to understand them and help them. Bigotry will never be justified, no matter what dodgy definitions you dredge up.

Limerent said:

Wanting to mutilate your own body parts and pump yourself full of hormones is being a danger to yourself, plus they kill themselves a lot more than normal people. This is especially true of those non-gender dysphoric people who instead want to chop off an arm or blind themselves. A waste of perfectly healthy bodies really.

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I want to touch on this point. Statistics like this are meaningless without knowing the cause and the context behind it. For example, are the transgender people who commit suicide doing it because of the torment in their own bodies (e.g. from the surgery or hormone treatment) or from the prejudice they receive in society? If it's the latter then surely the problem lies in the society rather than the trans-gendered person.

Is Transgenderism a mental disorder? Technically speaking it is for here is the definition:

A mental disorder, also called a mental illness or psychiatric disorder, is a diagnosis of a behavioral or mental pattern that can cause suffering or a poor ability to function in ordinary life.

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It's plain that many trans-gendered people suffer before they decide to get a sex change, so you could argue that it is a mental disorder. But again, is that down to the feelings they have inside them or purely a matter of social expectation? Sometimes, when we find out something about ourselves that is socially "unacceptable" it takes a long time to overcome it, to accept it as who we are. Many homosexual people I know grew up always being taught that homosexuality is bad before realizing that they are gay themselves. That can put a huge amount of mental strain on the person while they come to terms with it. So again, this disorder isn't so much caused by the person experiencing it, but rather the society that has insisted that said behaviour is "evil".

Limerent said:

I have as many qualifications as all the other psychologists in this thread. Psychology is a soft science easily molded by societal trends, they thought being gay was a mental illness a few decades ago and now look at that. If you believe everything you're told by them and the media you may as well listen to a dissenting opinion.

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/mic...atrist-transgender-mental-disorder-sex-change

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My point was more focused on the fact that there are actual transgender or gender-fluid people on PC, who may or may not have contributed to the discussion or might later. I think that what they feel and experience probably tumps you or I here, barring the presence of good evidence or qualifications in a relevant field.

Psychology is not nearly as soft as people make out, certainly nowhere near so as it was in the past. I have no problems hearing out a dissenting opinion, but your original post contained no information aside from your own narrow viewpoint. I originally wasn't going to participate in this discussion for similar reasons, but your post irked me enough to pull me in xD.

Wanting to mutilate your own body parts and pump yourself full of hormones is being a danger to yourself, plus they kill themselves a lot more than normal people. This is especially true of those non-gender dysphoric people who instead want to chop off an arm or blind themselves. A waste of perfectly healthy bodies really.

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It's hardly mutilating your body if the end result is a perfectly functioning body with a new sex that subsequently fits your gender. As for suicide rates, I would suggest they have a lot more to do with people like you who find fault in the trans community rather than the hormones/change in sex simply judging by discussions I have had with people whom are trans or gender-fluid.

Bigotry, now there's an actual buzzword. I don't care how you or "trans" people feel, nor am I required to. My purpose here is to remind you and others that live in a liberal echo chamber that some people will never believe you and will oppose crap like transgender bathrooms or giving hormone therapy to children so young they aren't even able to consent to sex, let alone having a sex change. When you find a provable, scientific cause for this mental illness I will begin to take these people more seriously.

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It's not really a buzzword if it's an accurate description of behaviour. A quick google search is all it takes to find viable scientific evidence, I gave you wikipedia's information also and you can find many valid sources at the base of that page. As for living in a "liberal echo-chamber", there's a lot of issues I am pretty conservative on actually and even aspects of this issue I'm less sure of, however I don't think there's anything wrong with demanding equality for my fellow human beings.

Gender definitions confuse me. And most people will probably put that down as me not having any issues myself and being an assumed cis male.

But the thing is... I'm not masculine? I don't fit the stereotypical male in many ways. I have plenty of feminine and neutral characteristics but I still define myself by my literal sex. So it somewhat confuses me :(.