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In and of itself

Lotus the Cat

Lotus the Cat

458
Posts
9
Years
    • I first noticed the use of the phrase "in and of itself" when on this forum. As someone who is familar with the use of the phrases "of itself" or, more commonly, "in itself" the combined version has always irked me.

    Reading it or hearing it to me is like nails on a chalkboard as it seems excessive and redundant to combine the two original phrases that would suit the uses I've seen "in and of itself" applied.

    As there are many here that use the phrase, why? How is it different than just saying "in itself" when making an argument? What additional information does it convey? Or, is it simply a cultural thing were certain phrases become popular (as I don't think I've ever encountered it in speaking or writing in Australia)?
     

    Kanzler

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    • "In and of itself" is just a more emphatic version of "in itself" or "of itself". Also it has a nice rhythm to it so I like how it represents a pause leading up to some important observation (that some thing doesn't intrinsically lead to something else).
     
    Lotus the Cat

    Lotus the Cat

    458
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    9
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    • Kanzler said:
    "In and of itself" is just a more emphatic version of "in itself" or "of itself". Also it has a nice rhythm to it so I like how it represents a pause leading up to some important observation (that some thing doesn't intrinsically lead to something else).
    Click to expand...
    If it is only an emphatic version, then it appears that it is indeed a redundancy. I also disagree with it having a nice rhythm as it sounds awful to my ear.
     

    Kanzler

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    • Lotus the Cat said:
    If it is only an emphatic version, then it appears that it is indeed a redundancy. I also disagree with it having a nice rhythm as it sounds awful to my ear.
    Click to expand...

    Well, yes it's redundant in the sense that it serves the same basic purpose, albeit to a more intensive degree. But the connotation of being more emphatic is unique compared to "in itself" or "of itself" and so it's not completely redundant.

    The thing about rhythm is that it allows you to take a pause before a point you want to emphasize. If you're just moving along you might just say "in itself, blah blah blah" but if you're getting to one of your main points you might say "in and of itself, blah blah blah" to signal to your audience that something big is coming up. It's rhetorically useful - I've used it in presentations and arguments myself, and can tell you there's a certain effect I get out of it. I could probably analyze it further and talk about the rhythm of both phrases in terms of the amount of beats it takes to say each phrase, but that's probably more than most people care to think about it.

    Okay you know what I'm doing it anyways. You say "in itself" in one beat. Snap your fingers to a beat like 80-90 bpm while saying "in itself" and you'll find each time you say "in itself" it'll fall on one beat. That means whatever you say following "in itself" will fall on the second beat, which is a weak beat. If you do the same to "in and of itself", you'll realize it takes two beats to say "in and of itself". Whatever you say after will fall on the downbeat or the strong beat and that gives the next phrase more emphasis, aurally.

    Also it sounds nice to my ears because I have an appreciation for the form and function of legalistic language. I know you're an engineer, so I wouldn't be surprised if you're not appreciative of that XD or maybe they just don't use it in Australia.
     
    Last edited:
    Lotus the Cat

    Lotus the Cat

    458
    Posts
    9
    Years
    • Kanzler said:
    Well, yes it's redundant in the sense that it serves the same basic purpose, albeit to a more intensive degree. But the connotation of being more emphatic is unique compared to "in itself" or "of itself" and so it's not completely redundant.

    The thing about rhythm is that it allows you to take a pause before a point you want to emphasize. If you're just moving along you might just say "in itself, blah blah blah" but if you're getting to one of your main points you might say "in and of itself, blah blah blah" to signal to your audience that something big is coming up. It's rhetorically useful - I've used it in presentations and arguments myself, and can tell you there's a certain effect I get out of it. I could probably analyze it further and talk about the rhythm of both phrases in terms of the amount of beats it takes to say each phrase, but that's probably more than most people care to think about it.

    Okay you know what I'm doing it anyways. You say "in itself" in one beat. Snap your fingers to a beat like 80-90 bpm while saying "in itself" and you'll find each time you say "in itself" it'll fall on one beat. That means whatever you say following "in itself" will fall on the second beat, which is a weak beat. If you do the same to "in and of itself", you'll realize it takes two beats to say "in and of itself". Whatever you say after will fall on the downbeat or the strong beat and that gives the next phrase more emphasis, aurally.

    Also it sounds nice to my ears because I have an appreciation for the form and function of legalistic language. I know you're an engineer, so I wouldn't be surprised if you're not appreciative of that XD or maybe they just don't use it in Australia.
    Click to expand...
    I wouldn't be surprised if it has something to do with the fact that it isn't used in Australia that rubs me the wrong way. I still find it interesting how commonly it appears to be used by North American speakers, however (based on seeing it written on websites and spoken (I heard it spoken for the first time in a tv interview yesterday)), as it is not generally encouraged to use other redundant phrases such as "absolutely certain".

    I can understand the importance of rhythm in spoken communication, but emphasis can also be achieved by pauses as opposed to "filler" words. For example, you could say "in itself", followed by a brief pause for emphasis or possibly achieve the same thing though use of tone.
     
    Akiba

    Akiba

    [img]http://i.imgur.com/o3RYT4v.png[/img]
    4,262
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    • "in itself" should be synonymous to "per se," so I think of "in and of itself" as a more explicit way of expressing a direct relationship. And because usually the phrase is used in a negative context, less is negated when something is "not X, in and of itself."

    For example, something could be "X, in itself," but also "not X, in and of itself."

    Heads will hurt.
     
    zakisrage

    zakisrage

    In the trunk on Highway 10
    500
    Posts
    10
    Years
    • Lotus the Cat said:
    I first noticed the use of the phrase "in and of itself" when on this forum. As someone who is familar with the use of the phrases "of itself" or, more commonly, "in itself" the combined version has always irked me.

    Reading it or hearing it to me is like nails on a chalkboard as it seems excessive and redundant to combine the two original phrases that would suit the uses I've seen "in and of itself" applied.

    As there are many here that use the phrase, why? How is it different than just saying "in itself" when making an argument? What additional information does it convey? Or, is it simply a cultural thing were certain phrases become popular (as I don't think I've ever encountered it in speaking or writing in Australia)?
    Click to expand...

    I don't think I've ever heard someone say "in and of itself" on here or anywhere IRL. It's probably considered nonstandard English, like using paparazzi as a singular word instead of a plural (the proper singular is paparazzo). I use nonstandard English quite a bit when I'm talking with my friends.
     
    Lotus the Cat

    Lotus the Cat

    458
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    Years
    • Akiba said:
    "in itself" should be synonymous to "per se,..."
    Click to expand...

    Agreed, "per se" and "in itself" have the same meaning. However...

    Akiba said:
    ...so I think of "in and of itself" as a more explicit way of expressing a direct relationship. And because usually the phrase is used in a negative context, less is negated when something is "not X, in and of itself."

    For example, something could be "X, in itself," but also "not X, in and of itself."

    Heads will hurt.
    Click to expand...

    This doesn't really make any sense to me. Firstly, I disagree that "in and of itself" is used generally in a negative situation vs. "in itself". I've seen it used in both circumstances.

    The use of "in and of itself" is still not markedly distinguished from the use of "in itself" or even "per se" (however, the general use of per se in a sentence's structure varies from the previous two, which are interchangeable). Let's look at a couple examples (bad with examples, sorry) of swapping out these terms and note that the meaning of the sentence, or for that matter the tone, does not change.


    1. The weather was not, in and of itself, the cause of the traffic delays
      The weather was not, in itself, the cause of the traffic delays.

    2. That, in and of itself, can be a shock
      That, in itself, can be a shock.

    zakisrage said:
    I don't think I've ever heard someone say "in and of itself" on here or anywhere IRL. It's probably considered nonstandard English, like using paparazzi as a singular word instead of a plural (the proper singular is paparazzo). I use nonstandard English quite a bit when I'm talking with my friends.
    Click to expand...

    Being Australian also, it's not a phrase I have ever encountered with another Aussie, written or spoken. However, pay attention and you will see it used in this forum and definitely in writing on other websites. It's not excessively used, but it's one of those things that once I paid attention to its use (as I'm not a fan of it), I started to notice it a lot more.
     

    Kanzler

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    • I don't think those are good examples for demonstrating the rhetorical effect of "in and of itself". In fact, I do perceive a difference, which is that the phrase with "in and of itself" sounds more pretentious. I think "in and of itself" only works in a larger context, when there's more of a climax of a developing argument. Without a larger context, there's no buildup and I think that's why its usage in those two examples fall flat.
     
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