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Physical force in parenting

Her

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Obviously, or at the very least hopefully, no one here condones abuse. So let's not make any implications of such in responses - I would very much prefer for that to not be 'a thing'.

In your eyes, when it comes to parenting one's child, to what extent is physical force allowable? Can it be justified?
 

Her

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What really condones "abuse", though? This seems like a stupid question--and it probably is--but in the culture where I'm from, it's completely normal to get a beating, whether by a belt or just being slapped or by some other means. Caribbean parents don't play around with their punishments; when they say they're going to do something, they're doing to do it.

These days though, I see parents getting arrested for things like leaving bruise marks on their children after simply hitting them too hard or something. I dunno, maybe my perspective is so different because I'm from a different culture, but does it really seem like "abuse" is defined as just not hitting a child, period, or is it something else that I'm missing in regards to physical discipline? What's even the proper way to physically discipline a child?

Coming from an abusive household, I define abusive parenting as regularly causing suffering outside of the realm of parenting, using your status as the de facto power in the house in order to physically or emotionally harm your child because of your own problems. Willfully disregarding a previously established social line in order to exact a disproportionate/dangerous response to a child's indiscretion, mistakes, etc. You get the idea.
But that's a very clinical view, I think. Coloured by my own experiences and so forth.

The point of this thread is for people to decide amongst themselves what they consider to be a breach of a parent's role. To talk about the differences between cultures or social groups or whatever, to weigh up what they consider justified and what is too far. What may be defined as abuse to one may be a way of life for another.
 
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I have a problem with this method of parenting for two simple reasons.

1. It's not that effective. Okay so you threaten your kid with corporal punishment and they overstep again and now you're forced into a position where you have to dole it out or you'll never be taken seriously again or w/e. So you give them a spanking. What else is left after that? There's nothing left to be afraid of once you've already experienced it. Ultimately it's just pain and eventually your kid is going to just take it and continue to bother you. Maybe it's just because my family breeds stubborn children, but it happens lol.

It's much more effective to confiscate things or restrict privileges. That forces a change in behaviour eventually because the kid is going to want their shit back. Whilst if you smack them, they'll cry for an hour whilst playing video games and then just do it again.

Then there's the issue of age. Good luck disciplining your child physically once they're bigger than you.

2. Considering problem 1, where do you draw the line? If the fear of the pain stops what do you do next? You either have to switch to the restriction method (so why not just start there?) or you need to make it hurt more. If you go with the latter you'll repeat the process and basically you either end up on a slippery slope to the unacceptable and keep going until you're a criminal or you get off that train and switch to the more effective method eventually anyway.

I don't think it's exactly the evil it's made out to be to spank your child, but it's just not as effective as other options.
 

Lucid

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In terms of spanking, I think it's definitely cultural depending on where you live, it's still a common disciplinary method here, and it's not typically seen as over the top unless parents bruise their kids or hit them in the face, but it is becoming less prevalent with with the new generations. More so because I think a lot of people's parents equated fear with respect and don't want that experience with their own kids.

I see it becoming abusive when you do it as a form of retaliation. Like the kid pisses you off so you're going to take out that anger and frustration by hurting them, physically or emotionally. Even if you aren't leaving a mark, that isn't discipline and it's not productive.

I think a lot of people make guidelines for how they're going to raise their future children, what they think is stupid and what they're never do and what they want to try based off of what they wished their parents did with them as kids. More then anything I think it's important to be flexible and keep in mind that kids respond to different methods and people differently, and that response will continue to shift with age. The threat of a spanking or just raising your voice is enough for some kids. Taking away a privilege or item may not be as effective for a 1 year old as it will be for a middle schooler. I've heard people say that if their child were to throw a tantrum not to acknowledge the bad behavior, but toting around a kicking and screaming toddler while trying to run errands is a lot easier said then done. You feel like a jackass. Whatever method you end up using will more then likely be a lot more time consuming and require a ton more patience then you anticipated.
 

Somewhere_

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I believe in peaceful parenting (not hitting, spanking, or screaming), and the research supports it. But I need to research and delve into it more before i make a solid conclusion.
 

Shamol

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I'm not sure if there's any unified theory of parenting, tbh. My parents used to beat me quite a lot growing up. I don't think this compromised their love or concern for me in the slightest. At the end of the day, kids need disciplinary restrictions, and where I live that's usually cashed out via (among other things) beating. As long as parents love their children and feel themselves ethically responsible, beating as such can only cause so much damage.

Of course, if there are other elements to this, like if beating just becomes a way of the parents taking out their frustrations on their children, and if it keeps happening consistently- then that just becomes abuse. This is why the underlying intention behind disciplinary actions are so important.
 

Arsenic

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I honestly believe disciplinary beating is a good thing when justified. When I went way over the line I got it, and it looks like I turned out way better than the little POS kids I see now-a-days with no respect for their parents.

A little off topic but I think children need more fights in every aspect of life, like schoolyard fights and stuff is what I'm talking about. All I see is ever since that stuff was burned into the minds of children that it was the most wrong thing ever people have gotten way too sensitive . You call a kid ugly in today's world and they go home and blow their brains all over the wall with a 12 gauge, or they buy a hot coffee and sue the shop for all their money because it's hot but didn't say that on the cup.

Anyways, I think that parents should start threatening the belt again. Not only does it toughen up the kid, if they have two brain cells they are less likely to do something that causes pain. This peaceful parenting crap just raises kids who take whatever they want from their parents and treat them like shit from my experience.
 

Crizzle

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There's a time for giving a beating to a kid, when the kid goes too far. The problem is that too many parents beat their children too often and sometimes with the wrong motivations, like beating the kid of anger or as an outlet for their own frustrations.
 

Caaethil

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No, child abuse is wrong. Also sets a rather poor precedent when you're trying to teach your child that hitting people is wrong. Instead they learn that you should hit people to teach them lessons. And this creates bullies. This is backed by science. Anyone who supports what I will only describe as abuse (no, I don't care that you only hit your child occasionally) doesn't deserve a child in my eyes.

That's my hard line stance for the day.
 

Nah

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A few people so far have said that research shows that physical force is ineffective for disciplining your child, but does anyone got any links or anything to said research?

I would think that use of physical force is occasionally warranted, solely just for the fact that there are some times and people where force is the only thing that will work.

Don't worry Caaethil, I don't want kids anyway.
 
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A few people so far have said that research shows that physical force is ineffective for disciplining your child, but does anyone got any links or anything to said research?

I would think that use of physical force is occasionally warranted, solely just for the fact that there are some times and people where force is the only thing that will work.

Don't worry Caaethil, I don't want kids anyway.

Most of my information here comes from personal experience, the opinions of parents I know and stuff from uni textbooks I remember. So no links from me I'm afraid.
 

Lucid

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I still say it's going to vary from child to child. With some kids, all you have to do is raise your voice, but with others, practically nothing works. It all depends on the individual kid. I don't think there's any One True Way of parenting that's going to work every time. Environmental factors play a big part as well, if a family is dysfunctional, inconsistent and chaotic, no amount of discipline or positive reinforcement is going to work. So do developmental delays, disabilities, behavioral disorders, even unchecked ADD or ADHD.
 
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Imafroggy

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I think it's easy to judge others for hitting their kids when you don't have any kids of your own. I used to get hit as a kid because I was a little **** and misbehaved a lot. Did it work? Most of the time yes. I don't think taking my Gameboy or whatever would have stopped it either. It doesn't mean my parents don't love me and I don't love them. It's also a cultural thing with some. So believing that your culture's way of disciplining children is the only correct one is a little ethnocentric I think. All children are different.
 

Caaethil

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A few people so far have said that research shows that physical force is ineffective for disciplining your child, but does anyone got any links or anything to said research?
The recent meta-analysis on spanking in the Journal of Family Psychology claims that spanking can cause short-term and long-term harm. Children become aggressive, anti-social, have more mental health problems and misbehave more. It involved over 160 000 children and brought together a big pile of past studies to come to a proper conclusion (that's what a meta-analysis is).

Sadly you'll have to buy it if you're that interested in reading. The abstract is as follows:

Whether spanking is helpful or harmful to children continues to be the source of considerable debate among both researchers and the public. This article addresses 2 persistent issues, namely whether effect sizes for spanking are distinct from those for physical abuse, and whether effect sizes for spanking are robust to study design differences. Meta-analyses focused specifically on spanking were conducted on a total of 111 unique effect sizes representing 160,927 children. Thirteen of 17 mean effect sizes were significantly different from zero and all indicated a link between spanking and increased risk for detrimental child outcomes. Effect sizes did not substantially differ between spanking and physical abuse or by study design characteristics.

I would think that use of physical force is occasionally warranted, solely just for the fact that there are some times and people where force is the only thing that will work.
Do we teach our children that same principle when they're learning to interact with other children, then? Because I spent a damn long time treating my brother in that way.

Don't worry Caaethil, I don't want kids anyway.
Just trying to educate people. I hope that didn't sound too condescending, it really wasn't supposed to, I promise.
 
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Personally, I don't want to use physical force to punish my kids. I feel like there are more calm and loving ways to discipline, but that's just me. I don't criticize people that do use physical force to punish their kids, it's just not my style at all. I got hit as a kid and it didn't scar me or anything but I didn't respond as well to it as being grounded or having things taken away from me. It just hurt, but it didn't really ever keep me from doing something I wasn't supposed to do.

I can see how it would be useful for some but it's not my thing. I want my kids to feel more secure than that and know that disobedience has consequences, but that consequence won't be getting beaten, slapped, hit, shoved, or kicked. *shrug* Not trying to offend anyone that does those things.

(I use the word 'secure' because when I got hit or beaten as a punishment it mainly just made me scared of my parents and kinda distant from them. I want to be able to explain to my kids why what they did was wrong and offer solutions for next time while still giving them a consequence that will help them think twice about it next time.)
 
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Hitting children is pure stupidity. No rationality or reasonability just a deterrence through pain.

If I had children my goal would be to teach them to partake in critical thinking and discussion in order for them to LEARN critical thinking necessary to establish right and wrong, rather than PHYSICALLY program them to mindlessly adopt right and wrong.

Also, someone noted ethnocentricism as a defense of corporal punishment. That is relativism. Right and wrong is not relative. Hitting a child serves a function that is against their freedom of consciousness. Some traditions of parenting suppresses individuality and personhood -- basically this is tyrannizing the most important aspect of being.

Being guided by PURELY tradition without knowing why one follows traditions is pure brainwashing/false-consciousness. We need to value all people, and hitting and programming children is a mechanism that reproduces intolerance and rather promotes stunted ability to reason and empathize with others.

Lastly, other punishments, including verbal abuse and taking away privileges are not necessarily good if the parent fails to have discussions of right and wrong in order to actually teach their children how navigate morality. For instance, bringing in the Bible is could be just as hazardous, if not more hazardous than corporal punishment. (especially when combined!!)
 

Shamol

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Lastly, other punishments, including verbal abuse and taking away privileges are not necessarily good if the parent fails to have discussions of right and wrong in order to actually teach their children how navigate morality.

This bit makes me think you're not against disciplinary measures taken against children per se, except only when they're done without a broader rational context set in place. So if such a pedagogical context is made available for the child, how would corporal punishment be qualitatively different from other disciplinary measures? To phrase my question a little differently-

If I had children my goal would be to teach them to partake in critical thinking and discussion in order for them to LEARN critical thinking necessary to establish right and wrong, rather than PHYSICALLY program them to mindlessly adopt right and wrong.

I'm sure you'd admit it doesn't always have to be either/or, right? Even when there's a context conducive to the appropriate cognitive development, the child may still act irrationally or unethically, and that would warrant (to whatever extents) enforcing disciplinary measures. Again, you don't seem to be against disciplinary measures per se (correct me if I'm wrong). Why can't the caveats you're suggesting that may warrant enforcing some disciplinary measures (e.g. verbal abuse, taking away privileges) be applicable in the case of corporal punishments as well?

I'm just trying to understand in a bit more detail why are you drawing the line where you are.
 
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Verbal abuse = do something or be psychically abused.
Physical abuse = do something or be physically abused.

These two methods emphasize avoidance of a proximate harm first and foremost. As such, I would argue that neither are beneficial.

You cannot teach critical thinking skills when certain actions are met with a slap or verbal abuse; the fear of a proximate harm motivates behavior.

One could try to argue that providing a reason behind the punishment prior to either form of abuse can teach good behavior; however, there is a pedagogy in the punishment itself which indoctrinates a child to learn that coercing others through threatening or implementing harm is the best method for addressing others. Moreover, the child is being coerced into accepting right and wrong rather than being convinced. No parent has complete moral knowledge. If the goal is to teach contemplation and reasoning to our children so that they are able to understand their own actions and belief with respect to others and continue toward progressing social knowledge, we cannot tell them what is right or wrong and encode them with this knowledge through conditioning them with proximate harms.

As someone who lived in two households. One employed proximate harms and the other did not. I can attest to being better behaved and conscientious of others when I was in the household that did not employ those methods. The punishing household did nothing but make me do as I was told and accept a set of ethics that often led to conflicting practices in real situations. The reason why is that coercion itself is built into that system of punishment; it is diametrically oppose and NOT conducive with intersubjective ethics. Essentially, treating others with respect and understanding how people are coerced and assisting others and navigating a social circumstances to make the right decisions that do not contribute to oppression and coercion of others.

In many ways, being an enforcer of coercion often means one is also being coerced. This chain of coercion is not built upon a foundation of intersubjective knowledge or right and wrong. Teaching morality and its practice requires individuals to understand principles and applying them flexibly as to navigate a complex social reality. The proximate harm method is often stringent and does not provide the ability to know right or wrong, but rather to just blindly execute right or wrong (without knowing whether or not it is actually is right or wrong.)

Of course no person can ever completely know right and wrong, but we can at least be reflective of the principles we strive to abide by, for instance non-coercion and empathy. Empathy just means, understanding an other person's behavior. People with a coerced sense of right and wrong often are lacking the ability to get underneath to the nuts and bolts as to why someone is acting in the way they are acting. Without empathy, we resort to being coercive. In many ways, we cannot even understand or empathize with ourselves when we coerce others. Therefore, within this very pedagogy of coercion we lose our ability to understand right and wrong since we cannot even empathize with ourselves. As Foucault articulates in Punishment and Discipline, we get punished, and then we discipline ourselves, as such, we lose the ability to have any autonomy. Without autonomy, it is a pointless and meaningless exchange of coercion.

Teaching coercion as a principle is self-defeating, period. For the most part, this principle is not practiced in the education of children by both parents and schools because of larger systems of discipline and punishment often devoid of meaning. Though, there are instances of resistance against these forms of coercion enforced through religion, traditionalism, norms, capitalism, and other things that coerce what things we value through proximate systems of punishment.

We need to learn how these very systems are oppressive rather than implement them.
We need to learn pragmatically ways in which we can resist such punishment, in order to balance navigating a punishing society and practically applying values of non-coercion and empathy.
And before we can do any of that, we cannot be barbaric and hit our children.

Societal norms oppress genuine human individuality and human collectivism by imposing value systems, often only a few people participate in establishing these norms. Thus, these values are highly subjective because the concern is of the few and not the many -- true meaning is derived intersubjectively or incorporating the human interests that apply to all persons universally.

However, most people participate in being disciplined and punishing other defectors in a rather blind manner. Resisting these forms of oppression is often difficult and stressful, but actually gives an individual a sense that they are actually participating in creating meaning rather than having meaning coerced upon them.

This is what I was taught in my other household. I literally never was grounded, hit, yelled at, or punished in any way. I had long discussions and was talked to as an adult rather than talked down to. It seems counter-intuitive at first glance, until you think through the pedagogy of punishing and why it fails to "teach" anything of meaning. Being able to create meaning with others is really what a progressing society looks like. In some ways, we see this happening more and more. As such, when society has meanings and values established though autonomous individuals we can actually be both collective and be self-disciplining rather than being disciplined.

I'd rather assist my children in being able to discipline themselves rather than learning being coerced and disciplined by others is somehow to their benefit or livelihood.
 

Hands

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It's tricky, I was smacked as a kid a lot when I misbehaved, but it's not like my parents were abusive. It was never the face or anything, always the arm or arse. And I feel I probably turned out better for it. But at the same time, I could never do it myself to a child. It's a very grey area.
 

Melody

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Sometimes it's necessary. As a last resort a spanking on the rear end is more than enough. But the punishment itself should also have sufficient enough rarity that they don't grow resistant to the punishment or build up resentments from it.

But you gotta work up to it. I think the build up to the gentle paddling with a hand or something is kind of important. Good parents seldom need to spank their children; the threat is sufficient; and the mere existence of a possibility of a really painful paddling should often suffice.

Physical punishment is unfortunately often applied wrongly. So I don't think that a parent choosing to avoid this altogether is at all unhealthy or problematic or weak. It's a right and valid path to parenting; as is choosing to employ physical punishments sparingly is. It's really only bad or lazy parenting if the parents start to rely on or overuse physical punishments. As parents; you should know your child well usually. If you don't; you're not spending enough time with them. If you can't create a non-physical punishment that will sting them enough to deliver your lesson to their developing but stubborn mind, then why aren't you seeking some advice or aid?

If a parent knows they need to seek help but won't; then they're in the wrong. If a parent gives up, they're in the wrong. Physical punishment isn't a shortcut to good behavior. Overuse tends to harm the shortcut.
 
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