The PokéCommunity Forums  

Go Back   The PokéCommunity Forums > Off-Topic Discussions > Discussions & Debates
Sign Up Rules/FAQ Live Battle Blogs Mark Forums Read

Notices

Discussions & Debates The place to go for slightly more in-depth topics. Discussions and debates about the world, current events, ideas, news, and more.

Reply
Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.  
Thread Tools
  #26    
Old June 15th, 2013 (12:47 PM).
Kanzler's Avatar
Kanzler
naughty biscotti
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Toronto
Age: 21
Gender: Male
Nature: Relaxed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenneking View Post
Comparing these with the pictures of the "Dove girls". It would appear one of them is in the high 20's, another is around 32-33 percent, and the other two are around 35-36 percent.
Just. no. You should consider what women actually look like, not just some illustration. I don't want to argue about perceptions, but even given the picture not one of them looks close to 35%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenneking View Post
Large body frame has nothing to do to lean mass to body fat ratio.
Exactly, which is why I'm saying that can skew your perception of how much body fat they have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenneking View Post
Accepting that the average American male and female are which exceeds 30 percent in women and 25 percent in men, is healthy, is false based off medical guidelines of body fat composition and health risks.
Who says that anybody is accepting that as healthy? I think the consensus is that we accept that the average indicates a majority of Americans (and in many other countries too) have unhealthy weights and we have to do something about it. Like I've said before, being at peace with your body image is not the same as accepting obesity or being overweight, if that happens to be the case.
__________________
Axeliira. ugh so late
Reply With Quote
  #27    
Old June 15th, 2013 (01:08 PM).
Anna's Avatar
Anna
(( and whisper my name as you do it ))
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Ankh-Morpork
Age: 21
Gender: Female
Nature: Bold
Wow you're making judgements based on a one-angle picture with no actual context behind it? Ok. Even besides the fact that some people have a deceptive amount of muscle mass and differently weighted and structured bones that would affect percentages and ratios, that's just plain ridiculous. That picture is showing one person at one angle with different body fat percentages. You are going to claim that represents the average? You are going to claim that we should all look like one of those pictures when we have the same body fat percentage? You claim that if we look like on of those people, then we will have the same body fat percentage? No. That is entirely wrong.
Quote:
Judgmental people don't like to see fat people? Where is this coming from?
The reason this is more of an issue to people than anorexia or similar is because our culture promotes thinness. We equate thin to beautiful. People who judge based on that standard of beauty (many) don't like seeing bigger people. This is the thing we have all been saying this whole time. Where's it coming from? Oh I have no idea.
Quote:
The women in the pictures are "clearly healthy" by widely adopted American standards, perpetuated by our media and actually depicts the average woman in America. In the vast majority of nations, those women would be considered in the top percentile of body fat content.
In the first picture, the ones you claim are obese & overweight, they are not the American standard who are represented and perpetuated in media. Those would be the second picture you are thinking of. The ones who are obviously thin. You seem to have a very skewed view of media representation.

Quote:
Again, you mentioned that there is also a side to the media that promotes rail-thin skinny women. The media agitates the situation by stressing that skinny is attractive and weight loss is healthy. Adding, attractiveness into the mix does help, and rather, one should lower body fat mass and fat loss while maintaining a certain amount of lean body mass in order to obtain a healthy body. Thus, starvation is out of the question since that would deplete ones metabolism and lean body mass. Eating disorders are usually the result of pressure on image, and thus, taking the most extreme actions to counteract them. Those on restrictive diets are not concerned of health, they are concerned with attractiveness, and thus, often lose sight of achieving health. Why not educate and use the media to remedy this?
Why are you using this as an argument? Nobody is disagreeing with this. Everyone here is saying the media should promote health and wellness. Why do you seem to think we're saying they should promote obesity? I'm saying you need to reconsider your perception in order to accurately gauge what is overweight/obese.

I'm just absolutely baffled by all of your responses.

EDIT
Quote:
Who says you need to starve or look like a supermodel? Just because one extreme, malnutrition/underweight, is unhealthy doesn't mean that being overweight/obese is healthy.
a) the media implies that you should look like a supermodel, so that is the solution people come to
b) nobody said that it was oh my god
__________________
PokéAni +
RT/AH Club +
Detroit +
Pairs +
Family +
Nakama +
Signature +
Avatar +
Reply With Quote
  #28    
Old June 15th, 2013 (01:11 PM). Edited June 15th, 2013 by The Dark Avenger.
The Dark Avenger's Avatar
The Dark Avenger
The Flyest Avenger
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: The States
Age: 22
Gender: Male
Nature: Adamant
Comparing these girls to the ones I have given measurements to at the university athletic center. The two end women have around 35% and the others, again, some where near or over 30%. I have no way to scientifically prove so, though I have experience measuring body fat percentages.

Men especially, have a skewed perception of their body fat. They come up to me in disbelief that their body fat could be around or over 20%. the majority of men underestimated their body fat percentages by 4-10+ percent. The same could be said for myself the first time I measured my body fat. I thought I was around 15% a couple years ago, which is fit, but I was actually 22% - which is overweight. People truly are upset given the skewed self-perception of health regard body fat percentage. They believe a lower weight means that they are healthy since weight is easily measured.

The ratio I suggest rules out those with LOW body fat that have no muscle mass, since that is unhealthy. Those with HIGH body fat and high or low BMI, are still considered obese either way.

Many people we believe are healthy and not prone to health risks, including ourselves, are indeed at risk to health ailments due to body fat. Thus, people are not aware of their own health risks, and that is the primary issue. By promoting the average women as described as healthy you are doing everyone a disservice to their own health and perception of body fat composition.

Other countries do not have this warped perception of body fat to the save degree or prevalence as the United States.

Anna- That statement was in response to this, "Sure, obesity is a problem, but there are so many other eating disorders created as a result of the stigma generated about being fat. I am pretty big, but I don't think my current size is a problem. Many other people my size get easily coaxed into thinking they need to be a super model, and as a result they starve themselves. Now, obesity may be a big health issue, but I'm pretty sure that malnutrition is far more dangerous."
Reply With Quote
  #29    
Old June 15th, 2013 (01:34 PM).
Anna's Avatar
Anna
(( and whisper my name as you do it ))
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Ankh-Morpork
Age: 21
Gender: Female
Nature: Bold
Quote:
Anna- That statement was in response to this, "Sure, obesity is a problem, but there are so many other eating disorders created as a result of the stigma generated about being fat. I am pretty big, but I don't think my current size is a problem. Many other people my size get easily coaxed into thinking they need to be a super model, and as a result they starve themselves. Now, obesity may be a big health issue, but I'm pretty sure that malnutrition is far more dangerous."
Which is still not saying that obesity is healthy, it is just his opinion that malnutrition is more dangerous. May I repeat? Nothing in there says "being overweight is healthy". It says, "I think malnutrition is more unhealthy."

I don't think you're qualified to be accurately judging body fat based on pictures.

Should we perhaps turn this discussion back to its actual intent, rather than inept calculations? Let's get back to representation in media. There has been a trend lately of accepting bigger people into mainstream media, but it's very very small. It's still not nearly enough to worry that people will get some notion that they should strive to be overweight. For one, the continued marketing of thin as beautiful and obvious muscles as attractive still far outweighs (ha) anything regarding overweight people or even average people. Honestly, you are not even very likely to see an average-sized girl in your TV shows and movies. And if you see an average, overweight, or obese person on a show, can you name them or their character? Do they have a decent role? How much of their story arc is about their weight, either dealing with it or correcting it? Until you get a significant amount of legitimately good characters who happen to be bigger and are NOT the butt of weight jokes and DO NOT get major focus on their weight, you can really not say that anything is influencing people to try to become overweight.
__________________
PokéAni +
RT/AH Club +
Detroit +
Pairs +
Family +
Nakama +
Signature +
Avatar +
Reply With Quote
  #30    
Old June 15th, 2013 (01:37 PM).
Kanzler's Avatar
Kanzler
naughty biscotti
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Toronto
Age: 21
Gender: Male
Nature: Relaxed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenneking View Post
Many people we believe are healthy and not prone to health risks, including ourselves, are indeed at risk to health ailments due to body fat. Thus, people are not aware of their own health risks, and that is the primary issue. By promoting the average women as described as healthy you are doing everyone a disservice to their own health and perception of body fat composition.
They're healthy because they don't like 30%+. We don't disagree with statistics, we disagree with your perception. Dem thighs. Flat stomachs visible waists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenneking View Post
Other countries do not have this warped perception of body fat to the save degree or prevalence as the United States.
Yes, but that's beside the point. Furthermore, 22% body fat for a man is not overweight, I don't know why you would interpret the number that way. Sure, it may be above average, but to call it overweight as we use it colloquially would be an overreaction. For men I guess, if you can see a bit of muscle definition, you're in the clear to me. People are built differently. You can see the outline of my ribs, but I still have a pot belly. Go figure.
__________________
Axeliira. ugh so late
Reply With Quote
  #31    
Old June 15th, 2013 (02:04 PM).
The Dark Avenger's Avatar
The Dark Avenger
The Flyest Avenger
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: The States
Age: 22
Gender: Male
Nature: Adamant
Everyone else seems to calculate the body fat percentages based on arbitrary subjectivity stating that there is no way the body fat of any of those women exceeds 30. Whereas I have two years of experience estimating and measuring actual people, I am qualified to throw an estimate ; those pictures are there for those who have no sort of foreknowledge to compare these women's body fats. Those women have tens and tens of extra pounds of fat being stored disproportionately on the hips, stomach, and thighs, that are apparent anyone who has worked in health or fitness related jobs.

These women are not "Average" in comparison to the median body fat percentages among most other nations, even developed ones. Further, their body fat percentage is not healthy it is quite apparent that it exceeds, for at least 3 of them, the 30% mark.

I don't believe people are trying to become overweight, but rather they are complacent and not aware of their own health risks. (Many would not consider themselves overweight or obese that are.)

The media, yes, in entertainment especially, there is a huge push for thin thin thin. However, when it comes to news media and social media this a a big push to expose the entertainment industry for pushing thinness/weight loss upon women especially, which is meritable. However, there is also the push to accept average american women as symbols of health, when, in fact the average women that is shown often exceeds 30% body fat. Thus, creating additional issues for self-perception of health.

For that reason, many posters on here, and it is understandable why, would believe that the women in the dove commercial are healthy as far as body fat composition, but they are in fact not. Social media and news media, along with some entertainment media has told them otherwise. There are various forms of misinformation among all types of media, and this is one of the in the United States.


And..
Well, 24% body fat for men is actually consider a health threat because it creates an estrogen hormone imbalance in the stored excess fat. 22%, is boarder-line. That is why I have reduced mine to 15-16%, last time I checked, which is relatively healthy, though not optimal.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #32    
Old June 15th, 2013 (05:51 PM).
Kanzler's Avatar
Kanzler
naughty biscotti
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Toronto
Age: 21
Gender: Male
Nature: Relaxed
The thing is, my estimate happens to be that they look sub 30%. Consider the following links:

http://www.leighpeele.com/wp-content...res-female.jpg
http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ll...45ayo1_500.jpg
http://campaigns.tribesports.com/ima...anfatwomen.png

Third from the left, between 20 and 25%. Second from the left, she's got to be around 25% with a waist like that. The women on the sides, well they're around 30% but definitely not 35%. The leftmost lady looks under 30%. The rightmost lady doesn't have an average body shape, maybe due to her ethnicity or just plain genetics. I say 30% maybe a little above. But none of them have love handles.

That's why I think they do in fact look average and healthy. Unless you wish to say that the pictures I found on the internet are inaccurate, in which case none of us can offer a counterargument. Again, we believe them to be healthy because they do in fact have a healthy body composition, not because our standards have been skewed as you continue to insist.

And 15% body fat would be highly flattering in the eyes of many men and women. I suppose optimal for you is looking like Daniel Craig? You'd be considered lean or fit, which last I checked was healthy, better-than-average, and a complement to boot.
__________________
Axeliira. ugh so late
Reply With Quote
Reply
Quick Reply

Sponsored Links
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Minimum Characters Per Post: 25



All times are UTC -8. The time now is 01:30 PM.


Style by Nymphadora, artwork by Sa-Dui.
Like our Facebook Page Follow us on Twitter © 2002 - 2014 The PokéCommunity™, pokecommunity.com.
Pokémon characters and images belong to The Pokémon Company International and Nintendo. This website is in no way affiliated with or endorsed by Nintendo, Creatures, GAMEFREAK, The Pokémon Company or The Pokémon Company International. We just love Pokémon.
All forum styles, their images (unless noted otherwise) and site designs are © 2002 - 2014 The PokéCommunity / PokéCommunity.com.
PokéCommunity™ is a trademark of The PokéCommunity. All rights reserved. Sponsor advertisements do not imply our endorsement of that product or service. User generated content remains the property of its creator.