I feel so cheap for doing it.

I just made a Protean Greninja with a Life orb (just to compete with the others in Online Battles). And I find myself winning so many battles, I see how cheap this Pokemon can be. The problem is that I feel that I have no choice but to use it. In my other team, I cannot fight without my Weavile. If I don't use it, I cannot win if my life depended on me. But on my second team, I needed another dragon killer, so I made a second Greninja (the first is a physical Torrent build). Now that this guy is in my team, people in Battle spot must be cussin my butt out. All it does is sweep whole teams by itself with the protean ability. Problem is that I can't stop using it. If I use any other build of ANY Pokemon, it always falls. I must have trained like 20 Pokemon with 20 different builds. And all it took to win a few battles was a Protean Greninja.

So tell me forum, how bad is the game getting when we find that we are left with little choice but to be cheap and win? I feel cheap for using my Greninja, but the game pretty much forces me to use it. Otherwise I am a punching bag for dragons and Gliscors.

On the one hand, you're absolutely correct. Greninja is such a standard for battles these days that one must always either prepare to face off against one, or use one themselves.

On the other hand, it presents quite a fun opportunity to be creative when building up teams. Guts Swellow, if given a safe switch in, will decimate any Greninja so long as the Swellow is running a Speed nature due to Greninja's pitiful defense stat.

It does bother me at times when certain Pokemon are clear favourites when other Pokemon like Farfetch'd and Delibird are continuously shafted each generation.

Honestly i tend to avoid the highly used seletion.
Greninja is a problem but all you really need is a good attacker with focus belt is it? Memory is a bit shot. The item to leave you with one HP. Plus Sceptle when trained souly in speed in my experience clears that face off for me.
Was pitted against one last night.
Either they had not trained it right or well who cares?
The ones i seem to hate more are the people that use Paralysis and Flinch together. Dark pulse is a favorite against me at the moment and i hate it.

St.Silver said:

Honestly i tend to avoid the highly used seletion.
Greninja is a problem but all you really need is a good attacker with focus belt is it? Memory is a bit shot. The item to leave you with one HP. Plus Sceptle when trained souly in speed in my experience clears that face off for me.
Was pitted against one last night.
Either they had not trained it right or well who cares?
The ones i seem to hate more are the people that use Paralysis and Flinch together. Dark pulse is a favorite against me at the moment and i hate it.

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My Greninja outspeeds any Sceptile (except scarfed ones). One Ice Beam, and that Sceptile is done.

Focus bands are also another commonly used cheap win. I use it to forcefully set up my dragon, and sweep. But then there is a counter for that, then a counter for that, then a counter for that. The chain of cheap tactics NEVER ends.

As someone who plays a lot of competitive, I've never quite understood the mentality that winning with something like Greninja is "cheap." Protean Greninja is a powerful special attacker, but frail, and against competent players wouldn't be able to 3-0 or 6-0. In VGC, it's not really that great.

What's cheap really are strategies like Baton Pass and Evasion or, lord forbid, OHKO moves. Anything that is that luck-reliant and uncompetitive is something that I think people should be mad about.

I don't think anybody should be considered cheap for using Pokemon that aren't overpowered, especially if those Pokemon are their favorites. People should be able to use Pokemon that help them win, and that's okay. If someone wants to use a lower-ranked Pokemon, that's okay too, so long as they realize that they might lose out on certain ways.

Sort of an aside, but this is why I really appreciate a tier-based system where lesser-used Pokemon can shine.

Sort of an aside, but this is why I really appreciate a tier-based system where lesser-used Pokemon can shine.

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I agree with you in a way, but at the same time I scratch my head. The tier based system does allow lesser used Pokemon to shine. BUT at the same time, why are there tiers to begin with? Why aren't ALL the Pokemon just as strong as one another? Why should Protean Greninja be that much more Powerful than a Torrent Greninja? Why should Greninja be much more Powerful than Samurott? Why should players avoid bringing their favorites just because Game freak doesn't believe in proper Balance?

Juxapose said:

I agree with you in a way, but at the same time I scratch my head. The tier based system does allow lesser used Pokemon to shine. BUT at the same time, why are there tiers to begin with? Why aren't ALL the Pokemon just as strong as one another? Why should Protean Greninja be that much more Powerful than a Torrent Greninja? Why should Greninja be much more Powerful than Samurott? Why should players avoid bringing their favorites just because Game freak doesn't believe in proper Balance?

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The answer to your question is simply that not all things are created equal. Greninja just happens to have the stats, ability, and moves to make it generally more useful than Samurott or some other Water types. Game Freak isn't always concerned about the metagame. But its not as if its impossible to win with your favorites; it just takes more skill.

Also, Protean is >>>>>>> Torrent on Greninja because Protean effectively gives it STAB on all its moves (something many pokes would kill for) and the type switching has its uses defensively. Greninja is too frail for Torrent to be reliable; getting down to less than 1/3 HP is incredibly difficult/dangerous for it, and it only boosts Water attacks, whereas Protean boosts ALL its attacks.

Salt&PepperDiner said:

Also, Protean is >>>>>>> Torrent on Greninja because Protean effectively gives it STAB on all its moves (something many pokes would kill for) and the type switching has its uses defensively. Greninja is too frail for Torrent to be reliable; getting down to less than 1/3 HP is incredibly difficult/dangerous for it, and it only boosts Water attacks, whereas Protean boosts ALL its attacks.

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Interestingly enough, I have made the build work. Early in my Online Playing days of Pokemon X/Y, Torrent Greninja has in fact won many battles. I made Greninja into a defensive build, which 9/10 allows it to survive attacks like Volt Switch, non-stab Aura Sphere, and Thunderbolt. Assault Vest or Focus Slash are also good items to help ensure it's survival. This allows it to activate Torrent, which I counter either with Powerup-Punch or Waterfall. Next is Spamming Water Shiruken which makes quick work of Pokemon like Ninjask, Smeargle, and other Baton Passers. Unfortunately, I learned that this Pokemon is a bit Situational, and people have moved on with their baton passers and use other tactics that Torrent Greninja cannot fight.

Best way to win every game is to get a gale wing talonflame and a charizard y on your team. No way to counter them both so you win.

I agree in that I had to breed a Protean Greninja as well. I'm still not the best at Rating battles etc but against friends, it feels like I'm cheating.

Juxapose said:

Interestingly enough, I have made the build work. Early in my Online Playing days of Pokemon X/Y, Torrent Greninja has in fact won many battles. I made Greninja into a defensive build, which 9/10 allows it to survive attacks like Volt Switch, non-stab Aura Sphere, and Thunderbolt. Assault Vest or Focus Slash are also good items to help ensure it's survival. This allows it to activate Torrent, which I counter either with Powerup-Punch or Waterfall. Next is Spamming Water Shiruken which makes quick work of Pokemon like Ninjask, Smeargle, and other Baton Passers. Unfortunately, I learned that this Pokemon is a bit Situational, and people have moved on with their baton passers and use other tactics that Torrent Greninja cannot fight.

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Huh, that's pretty interesting. I did try to use a physical Water Shuriken Greninja once, but it didn't really work; should've done it the way you did. Too bad it doesn't seem to work anymore.

mokonasakura said:

Best way to win every game is to get a gale wing talonflame and a charizard y on your team. No way to counter them both so you win.

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One word: Rocks

My situation is opposite, I'm currently losing so freaking much, I used to have a Win-Lose Pattern but now it's just losing, my Pokemon aren't doing anything. Guess people get tired of winning so much. I'm getting tired of losing so much as well, I want to have the Win-Loss pattern again.

Talon Flare said:

My situation is opposite, I'm currently losing so freaking much, I used to have a Win-Lose Pattern but now it's just losing, my Pokemon aren't doing anything. Guess people get tired of winning so much. I'm getting tired of losing so much as well, I want to have the Win-Loss pattern again.

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As time progresses, you have to see why you are losing and change up your team. People are desperate for wins, so they will use the cheapest methods to win. Almost all tactics have a weak point. Train new Pokemon and try new things out until you get more wins. The game evolves, and so do the trainers.

Juxapose said:

As time progresses, you have to see why you are losing and change up your team. People are desperate for wins, so they will use the cheapest methods to win. Almost all tactics have a weak point. Train new Pokemon and try new things out until you get more wins. The game evolves, and so do the trainers.

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As I said in a previous thread, this seems to be a constant problem with today's generation of trainers. No one is prepared to take the chance on an honourable loss by battling their way, and would much rather depart from their favorite style and win with brute force or "cheap" tactics that just bore the arse off most people and drain the joy from battling altogether.

I'll tell you what, Jux - I would like to battle you sometime. I don't subscribe to any sort of huge tactical play, I just battle the way I enjoy battling and i'm a bit of a purist. If you are interested, PM me. My friend code is at the bottom.

By the way, winning and losing ultimately mean nothing. If you don't enjoy the process, then the result is pointless.

You gotta do what you can do to win consistently. Winning comes with great satisfaction.

I prefer OP pokémon because it forces you to come up with strategies that will counter/utilize them

Sean said:

.You gotta do what you can do to win. consistently Winning comes with great satisfaction.

I prefer OP pokémon because it forces you to come up with strategies that will counter/utilize them

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I agree, but there has to be a balance. Using the same old bore-arse tactics again and again will only serve to alienate the online community and send everyone to sleep.

Like I said above, If you don't enjoy the battle, then the result is just an empty statistic.

Zekrom said:

Huh, that's pretty interesting. I did try to use a physical Water Shuriken Greninja once, but it didn't really work; should've done it the way you did. Too bad it doesn't seem to work anymore.


One word: Rocks

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Charizard y is faster then any rock user and all rock users are 1hko by him.

Relevant.



But every battles liiiike stealth rocks, earthquake, sticky web'n trick room, Gliscor, gengar, talonflame and breloom - we don't caaaare. We aren't caught up in this love affaiiiir

:P

But yo, on what you're saying - a few things.
1) It's not so much 'cheap' as it is highly unoriginal, uncreative, standard, and effective. There are counters, like anything that has a hard hitting mach punch can come in after its used Dark Pulse or against it first turn, and it has to run.

2) If you enjoy using it, hey - by all means man. Things are popular for a reason. And this may sound harsh or derogative towards you, but if the way you enjoy pokemon is just using the pre-defined meta, and using all the pokemon builds and teams everyone else is using without trying to come up with your own innovative solutions, then go for it. Even if you stopped anyways, it's not like you still wouldn't run into a million other people doing the exact same thing. Some people play to win, some people play to have fun. For some people, those are the same thing! Hahah.

Personally - I know I'll never touch any of those things. They're predictable, and as you said very overused and flooding the competitive scene. But hey, the fact that they're so common, gives me and people of a similar mindset, a great opportunity to use less common things effectively against them, since people who use the top usage mons don't know what some sillier things can do.

Wanna see a fun stat?

Whip out your Showdown damage calculators kids.

Pokemon 1. Usage Greninja, Timid, Protean, Life Orb 252 SpA and Speed. Ice Beam Hydro Pump and whatever else.
Pokemon 2. Stunfisk. Modest. Static (not that it matters) Assault Vest. 252 HP and Sp. Atk. Thunderbolt.

Check that Thunderbolt- Guaranteed ohko? Neato

But Greninja's waaaaay-hay-hay-hay faster, so check that ice beam.
Oh, a 2hko? That's rough buddy

What about Hydro Pump though, that's much stronger
Oh wait what, still a 2hko? ouch mate.


Yeah yeah, it can still protean its way out of a super effective thunderbolt, but there's the life orb recoil to consider, and if you put Choice Specs on Stunfisk instead of Assault vest - that just becomes a whole myriad of scenarios to consider. The point is - Stunfisk *can* mess up a Greninja. And I've seen it happen. I have the battle vids if you wanna see. :I

And that's where the fun in the game is for me.

mokonasakura said:

Charizard y is faster then any rock user and all rock users are 1hko by him.

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I'll give you that Mega Zard Y is hard to straight up counter; but checking it? Not hard at all. Scarf Terrakion outspeeds and OHKOs with a rock attack. Assault Vest Regirock and specially defensive Cradily can take a hit from Focus Blast or Solarbeam and OHKO with Stone Edge/Rock Slide. Even Assault Vest Tyranitar in the Sand can tank a Focus Blast and Stone Edge Mega Zard Y to death. There's also the fact that Stealth Rocks is very common in battles.

Basically anything that can survive one of Mega Zard Y's attacks or outspeeds and carries a Rock attack can beat it.

Zekrom said:

I'll give you that Mega Zard Y is hard to straight up counter; but checking it? Not hard at all. Scarf Terrakion outspeeds and OHKOs with a rock attack. Assault Vest Regirock and specially defensive Cradily can take a hit from Focus Blast or Solarbeam and OHKO with Stone Edge/Rock Slide. Even Assault Vest Tyranitar in the Sand can tank a Focus Blast and Stone Edge Mega Zard Y to death. There's also the fact that Stealth Rocks is very common in battles.

Basically anything that can survive one of Mega Zard Y's attacks or outspeeds and carries a Rock attack can beat it.

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So you are relying on stone edge which has a high chance to miss? Well I guess you would win half your games that way.