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Pokémon Gaming Central For topics that aren't necessarily restricted to one game, Pokémon Gaming Central ranges from comparing and contrasting the differences in the gaming generations to discussing the gaming franchise as a whole.

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  #1    
Old February 9th, 2013, 02:09 AM
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I made a thread about how to be overleveled and someone pointed me out to an LPer. I'm following his videos and he always used the mascot legendary in his LPs. I asked him why and he told me it was because they're strong Pokémon so why not use them. But then, something dawned on me...

What if, canonically, you're supposed to use the mascot legendary? BW is the first game in which you're required to catch it to progress with the story, and in the post-game I imagine Hilbert/Hilda would use it to search for N and his own legendary. Likewise, in HGSS Ho-Oh and Lugia are waiting for a pure-hearted trainer to appear before them, and this trainer is obviously you.

The beauty of Pokémon is that you make your own canon, but I think that maybe there's an "official" way to go through the game...

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  #2    
Old February 9th, 2013, 02:50 AM
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No, if there was an official way, there would only be 1 starter that wd HAD to choose. Only 4 pokemon in the wild, that you HAD to catch. And you HAD to catch the main legendary.
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  #3    
Old February 9th, 2013, 05:04 PM
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Nah, an "official" way to go through the game spits on the entirety of Pokemon. Pokemon's always been about stepping into a large world full of hundreds of monsters and doing whatever you want from solo runs to catching everything. You can play however you want, and the only limits are the ones that you set yourself.

The mascot legendaries are more symbolic than anything. They pretty much exist to test you once you reach that part of the game. Do you have what it takes to capture or defeat them? More than likely, but that's not the point. There is only one, and it's in front of you right now. This is your only shot*. What will you do?

*if you don't save and reset but who wouldn't? Nothing's better than replaying that only shot until you get it right
  #4    
Old February 10th, 2013, 03:02 PM
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I don't think there's an official way to play the games. If there was, we wouldn't see all the options that Pokemon gives us and there would only be about 6 Pokemon per game, I'm sure.

I don't think it's canon to use the mascot legendary either, except in BW and even then, you don't have to, which further shows that you don't have to play the game a certain way to win or do it properly. Everyone has their own unique way of playing Pokemon. It's a very customizable game when you think about it.

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  #5    
Old February 16th, 2013, 08:26 AM
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Yes. The stories certainly encourage it, and in BW2 the prequels' protagonist is travelling with the other legend. The notion even appears to hold true for the first generation, as Red uses every box-art starter in the games since.


I think the posters here thus far don't understand the implications of canon: what outcome is considered canonical by the creator(s) doesn't have any effect on the game itself, only potentially on sequels and peripheral franchises (ex. the Pokemon anime, mangas, et al.). You know how fighting games have particular canonical endings but there are still endings scripted for every character? Like that.
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  #6    
Old February 19th, 2013, 10:31 AM
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There was only one thing that I really hated about Black and White, and that was specifically that the game tried to force the mascot legendary on me.

As noted, games need a canon if they're going to have sequels (otherwise they have to do something cheesy like the Dragon Break in the Elder Scrolls universe, where the multiple endings in Daggerfall are passed off in later games essentially as "something happened, but nobody's sure what.") That's fine. But if the game is going to have options, it'd damned well better honor those options at least in-game. I don't care if some later game wants to say that this or that happened, since I don't try to carry characters over from one game to the next anyway. But dammit - I went to all the trouble of catching and training and evolving the six pokemon I took with me on my E4 team because I wanted those six pokemon, and then suddenly this dragon thing is trying to butt in to my team. And I'm stuck either dumping one of my loyal companions in favor of some newcomer or throwing an enormous wrench in the middle of the story the game is trying to force on me. They're both bad choices, and no game should ever force me into one of two bad choices.

Yes - in the interests of keeping the story straight (which is what "canon" actually is), the designers have to have one particular story in mind. But the games are actually explicitly designed to allow multiple paths and countless permutations, so that "canon" story should be not only optional, but it should be possible to do something else with no effort and no contrivance. It's reasonable to drop enough hints that it's possible to see what the intended canon is, so that those who are so inclined can follow it, but the alternate paths need to be there as well, and with no penalties for following them instead.
  #7    
Old February 20th, 2013, 04:44 PM
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Well I as the OP consider it to be canon at least in BW, but I sure as hell won't use it in the final battle because it comes untrained with crap moves. Besides, Ghetsis has Pokémon specifically designed to shut down the mascot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arlo View Post
There was only one thing that I really hated about Black and White, and that was specifically that the game tried to force the mascot legendary on me.

As noted, games need a canon if they're going to have sequels (otherwise they have to do something cheesy like the Dragon Break in the Elder Scrolls universe, where the multiple endings in Daggerfall are passed off in later games essentially as "something happened, but nobody's sure what.") That's fine. But if the game is going to have options, it'd damned well better honor those options at least in-game. I don't care if some later game wants to say that this or that happened, since I don't try to carry characters over from one game to the next anyway. But dammit - I went to all the trouble of catching and training and evolving the six pokemon I took with me on my E4 team because I wanted those six pokemon, and then suddenly this dragon thing is trying to butt in to my team. And I'm stuck either dumping one of my loyal companions in favor of some newcomer or throwing an enormous wrench in the middle of the story the game is trying to force on me. They're both bad choices, and no game should ever force me into one of two bad choices.

Yes - in the interests of keeping the story straight (which is what "canon" actually is), the designers have to have one particular story in mind. But the games are actually explicitly designed to allow multiple paths and countless permutations, so that "canon" story should be not only optional, but it should be possible to do something else with no effort and no contrivance. It's reasonable to drop enough hints that it's possible to see what the intended canon is, so that those who are so inclined can follow it, but the alternate paths need to be there as well, and with no penalties for following them instead.
That's not how it works in most games... Take fighting games for example. In Mortal Kombat, you could defeat Shang Tsung with either of the eight combatants, but the canon story is that Liu Kang wins the tournament. The canon is what keeps the series going. Anything that deviates from the canon is a "what if" scenario.

In BW, it's never canonically stated whether the player becomes Champion by beating Alder, since the whole post-game is just that - post-game. It bears no relevance to the story. You can redo the E4 challenge and become Champion, but that's entirely optional. HGSS shows that catching the legendary birds and Mewtwo in FRLG isn't canon, since they're still there for Ethan to catch.

The Pokémon canon very rarely states that a legendary has been caught. This is for practical reasons, since it allows the legendary to be caught in subsequent games. I actually thought it was pretty cool that they hinted in BW that the "proper" way to advance the story was to catch the legendary and use it against N and Ghetsis. Unfortunately, like I said, if you have a team of overleveled Pokémon at your disposal, using the legendary might be counterproductive.

However, the fact Hilbert owns Zekrom/Reshiram IS canon.

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  #8    
Old February 20th, 2013, 08:54 PM
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I don't really think using the version mascot is canon, except for Black and White I guess. Black/White do force you to catch the mascot (Reshiram/Zekrom) but Ghetsis and N do have Pokemon trained to counter it, so you can't just basically curb-stomp them with just the mascot.

Also, going by the B2/W2 story, the mascot N doesn't have is apparently with Hilbert/Hilda, the B/W protagonist. I guess Hilbert/Hilda is riding their mascot to search for N. It's sort of like how Red has all the 1st Gen cover mascots on his team (Venusaur, Charizard, Blastoise and Pikachu), which Cassino stated earlier.
  #9    
Old February 21st, 2013, 01:46 AM
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No not really. The only exception to this was in BW and you were only required to catch it in order to move on. You didn't exactly have to use it to beat N, though the pretty much suggests that you do. And I'm sure alot of people did use their Reshiram/Zekrom to beat N though, cause I know I did. It's pretty much up to you what Pokemon you use on your teams in the games. I personally don't usually use the version legendary/mascot (unless I'm playing a Gen I game) or any legendary on my team cause it seems rather unfair cause of how strong they are ,though there's been times where I have.

Though however, Hilda/Hibert having Reshiram/Zekrom is pretty much canon and Red having the version mascots of the Gen I games on his team is canon as well. I imagine that Hilda/Hilbert are flying around the Pokemon world on it looking for N.

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  #10    
Old February 21st, 2013, 01:54 AM
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I try never to use the legendaries, even in BW (That Zekrom is hell-hard, and if I didn't have my Excadrill I'd be toast) but really, there's no need of calling them canon. In FR/LG there IS no mascot legendary but to improve the fun of the game you can take their corresponding mascot starters.
  #11    
Old February 21st, 2013, 12:08 PM
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I believe it's canon that "Hilbert"/Hilda catches Reshiram/Zekrom, but I don't think it's canon that he/she actually has to use said legendary Pokemon. As for my own usage, it may as well be 'canon', as I typically use Kyogre (Sapphire) or Rayquaza (Emerald) to tackle the Elite 4, Champion, and other pesky Trainers once I've caught said legendary Pokemon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerberus87 View Post
BW is the first game in which you're required to catch it to progress with the story, and in the post-game I imagine Hilbert/Hilda would use it to search for N and his own legendary. Likewise, in HGSS Ho-Oh and Lugia are waiting for a pure-hearted trainer to appear before them, and this trainer is obviously you.

The beauty of Pokémon is that you make your own canon, but I think that maybe there's an "official" way to go through the game...
Maybe I'm confused about events, but don't you summon Ho-Oh/Lugia (i.e., they come to you) rather than you going to Ho-Oh/Lugia's roost? "Appear before them" seems to me that they're waiting for someone to come to them; if you summon them, it kind of seems that they stumbled upon the player by chance...

And I agree, the beauty of Pokemon is that you make your own canon, although, unfortunately for some, some of the 'canon' established in sequels may gel with your 'own' canon...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweets Witch View Post
Nah, an "official" way to go through the game spits on the entirety of Pokemon. Pokemon's always been about stepping into a large world full of hundreds of monsters and doing whatever you want from solo runs to catching everything. You can play however you want, and the only limits are the ones that you set yourself.

The mascot legendaries are more symbolic than anything. They pretty much exist to test you once you reach that part of the game. Do you have what it takes to capture or defeat them? More than likely, but that's not the point. There is only one, and it's in front of you right now. This is your only shot*. What will you do?

*if you don't save and reset but who wouldn't? Nothing's better than replaying that only shot until you get it right
This, so very, very much (as in, in the scope of a single game, without considering prequels or sequels).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassino View Post
Yes. The stories certainly encourage it, and in BW2 the prequels' protagonist is travelling with the other legend. The notion even appears to hold true for the first generation, as Red uses every box-art starter in the games since.


I think the posters here thus far don't understand the implications of canon: what outcome is considered canonical by the creator(s) doesn't have any effect on the game itself, only potentially on sequels and peripheral franchises (ex. the Pokemon anime, mangas, et al.). You know how fighting games have particular canonical endings but there are still endings scripted for every character? Like that.
Even if the stories encourage it, I don't think it would be canon unless such usage is shown in a battle that drives the plot (i.e., "Hilbert"/Hilda is required to use Reshiram/Zekrom during a certain battle, or the game shows some sort of cutscene with Reshiram/Zekrom under the command of "Hilbert"/Hilda.).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerberus87 View Post
HGSS shows that catching the legendary birds and Mewtwo in FRLG isn't canon, since they're still there for Ethan to catch.

The Pokémon canon very rarely states that a legendary has been caught. This is for practical reasons, since it allows the legendary to be caught in subsequent games. I actually thought it was pretty cool that they hinted in BW that the "proper" way to advance the story was to catch the legendary and use it against N and Ghetsis. Unfortunately, like I said, if you have a team of overleveled Pokémon at your disposal, using the legendary might be counterproductive.

However, the fact Hilbert owns Zekrom/Reshiram IS canon.
As for the legendary birds, "catching them in FRLG" should be just as much canon as "catching them in HGSS", as there is the potential for there to be more than one of each legendary Pokemon (if you subscribe to the theory that legendary Pokemon are members of a species rather than being unique/one-of-a-kind). Moltres seems to be a more suitable example - it's possible that Red caught the Moltres living at Mt. Ember of the Sevii Islands while Ethan caught the one that resides at Mt. Silver in Johto.

I'm personally of the belief that legendary Pokemon are unique but have somehow been cloned and subsequently are running rampant throughout the various regions...if cloning technology was made once and yielded Mew, there's no reason that scientists wouldn't be able to clone Pokemon again or develop the technology again using data from the Cinnabar Island ordeal. I mean, either there are multiples of Legendaries, Legendary clone Pokemon are running around with wild abandon, or it's "canon" that some legendary Pokemon have migrated/remained uncaught since the events of preceding games. As for me, it helps to explain how I'm able to encounter all of these Legendaries during Link Battles. :cer_laugh: I envision that I own the 'original' copies of all the Legendary Pokemon, and everyone else has somehow managed to nab a clone and use it against me. But anyways...

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWsquared View Post
Though however, Hilda/Hibert having Reshiram/Zekrom is pretty much canon and Red having the version mascots of the Gen I games on his team is canon as well. I imagine that Hilda/Hilbert are flying around the Pokemon world on it looking for N.
Is canon defined by when the credits roll, or what...? I thought Red's battle at Mt. Silver was optional (note, I haven't actually played GSC or HGSS yet... >.<)...I remember reading the "true credits" rolling once you beat Red, but don't the credits 'roll' prior to that when you beat Champion Lance as well? If Red's Mt. Silver battle is optional, then I don't necessarily think it's canon that he owns all 3 (or rather, all 4) Kanto starters.
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  #12    
Old February 21st, 2013, 02:16 PM
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With the exception of BW, the only thing that's canon when it comes to the mascot legendaries is that the main trainer simply defeats them rather than capturing them, as a way to use them again as post-game legendaries for third versions/remakes/sequels.
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