Fanfiction Lounge

[Astinus]

As a reader/reviewer, is there some specific type of antagonist or evil plot that you would not want to see in a fanfic?
I'll be one of those odd people and say that I really don't care what's used in a fic for the antagonist. (Seriously, the whole "alien race that isn't understood" has been used multiple times in sci-fi books, yet I just love my favorite book.) Really, it doesn't matter to me who the antagonist is, or the protagonist. Just as long as the story is written in a new exciting way and isn't just a rehash of the games/anime.

Alter Ego, we have "first fic insecurity" in common. Weird how we seem so confident when reviewing, yet when it comes to our own stories, it just never gets perfect.

 

[Dragonfree]

Do you use themes in your fics? If so, what are some examples?
The themes tend to weave themselves into the story and then I get interested in them. The Quest for the Legends, therefore, is full of themes that I didn't exactly deliberately decide I wanted to write a fic about, but which just sort of appeared and I started thinking about after that:

Spoiler:

- Imperfection, fallibility
- There is no ultimate fate or purpose
- Nothing is "just because"
- "White lies"
- How individual choices affect the world
- What would you really do for love?
- Truth
- Letting go of the past
- Standing up to authority
- Eternity
- Death

Scyther's Story had the primary theme of corrupt society, standing up to it, rising above the masses and overcoming childhood indoctrination. The Fall of a Leader picks up the theme of corrupt society and adds the major theme of hypocrisy, along with the road to Hell which is paved with good intentions and how power corrupts.

As a reader/reviewer, is there some specific type of antagonist or evil plot that you would not want to see in a fanfic?
Villains who are stupid. I can't stand villains who are stupid. I want some real conflict, not the hero escaping a group of bumbling idiots every couple of chapters. Villains who are stupid include any villains repeatedly doing things on the Evil Overlord list, such as revealing their plans to the hero because "he's going to die anyway", conveniently explaining to the hero how the doomsday machine works or wanting the hero to die by his own hands. The hero can make mistakes, but villains can't be properly threatening unless the hero truly escapes through a method they couldn't possibly have foreseen. For the love of God, don't make the villain waste his time taking on the hero in a fair Pokémon battle. I don't want to see the hero get away because the villain wanted to "humiliate him" but didn't even consider that he could lose the battle. Come on, that's just cheap.

 

[txteclipse]

I use a lot of themes, but they are usually just the result of telling the story. It's kind of unavoidable, I guess, even though I would see no reason to avoid them in the first place...

As for villains, I like what you said. I'm trying to make mine as believable as possible, so I'm trying to avoid monologues and "mercy situations" that conveniently allow the protagonists to escape. They just seem cheezy, and the villain comes across as less powerful and intimidating.

 

[purple_drake]

As a reader/reviewer, is there some specific type of antagonist or evil plot that you would not want to see in a fanfic?

Uhm... yeah. Dragonfree pretty much said it all. ^.^;; I love the unfairnessness of a realistic villain, which is one of the reasons why I advocate using guns and things in fics--'cos c'mon, the Rockets in particular aren't about to let go of any advantage.

I guess it kinda ties in with the whole 'child saviour' thing the games have got going, because the Rockets do come across as kinda stupid that way... which they'd have to be in order for a child to 'realistically' take them down like that.

...I could tell you the kinds of villains I like to see, but yeah, other than that one, I can't think of any others I wouldn't. ^.^;;

 

[Elite Overlord LeSabre™]

Regarding the villain issue:

While the head antagonist should not be so stupid as to reveal his/her plan, not all of their subordinates (admins/commanders/executives/grunts/peons/etc) might not be so intelligent. Or show that level of common sense. Or they are overly narcissistic and boastful. After all, the leader only has so much control over their underlings, especially in the field. And any punishment that the leader does inflict on their henchmen will be too little, too late as far as alerting the protagonist.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is, don't have the big leader reveal their plans, but if it fits the character of certain subordinates to let slip tidbits of information, I have no qualms with it.

 

[Deathspector]

As a reader/reviewer, is there some specific type of antagonist or evil plot that you would not want to see in a fanfic?

I agree with Dragonfree and purple_drake that the antagonist should not be a stupid bumbling idiot who trips over his or her own feet just in time for the protagonist to escape. While I am fond of extremely innovative villains, I'm not fond of the typical evil genius who wants to rule the world. Neither am I fond of the scientist villain who has some scheme that would blow the world up if the hero wasn't there. So while I'm not a big fan of stupid villains, the over smart ones are just as bad. A lot of people say that your protagonist should be balanced and realistic. Well, the villain should too.

Deathspector

 

[Alter Ego]

A perfect little Gary-stu/Mary-sue. The're yucky. Also, those depressed loser emo people that are starting to be a tad overused know. Can't we just have a kid who blends in once in a while? Jebus...

A Mary-Sue gone evil (not to be confused with goth-sue, I mean someone who has the usual lightside Mary traits down to a T but goes for world destruction anyway xD) actually seems rather appealing to me, I must admit. In an absurd 'WTF am I thinking' kind of way. xD

Alter Ego, we have "first fic insecurity" in common. Weird how we seem so confident when reviewing, yet when it comes to our own stories, it just never gets perfect.

Heh, having reviewed for the fandom before writing for it might be a drawback in this case. I mean, after going about and saying what should and shouldn't be done, you have to make really sure that you aren't going against your own advice, ne? xD Besides, if my fic goes into the region of 'bad without any redeeming qualities' my credibility as a reviewer will be shot. *Flails under performance pressure* Bleh, I'm always making too big a deal of these things. xP


Oh, and to answer my own question: yeah, I can't stand the stupidly evil villains, especially the 'I do bad things because...because I'm EVIL! MUAHAHAHAHAA!' types. <.< I like antagonists that can be taken seriously, thank you very much. As for the plots...well, Glajummy already got to know this one but I'm sick and tired of the 'we changed the DNA to make super pokémon' shtick. >_< Seriously, gimme' a plausible superpowered pokémon scenario that doesn't even mention DNA and I'll be very, VERY happy and love your fic forever.

Or at least for a while. :3

And since purple_drake brought it up...

What's your favorite kind of antagonist?

 

[JX Valentine]

What's your favorite kind of antagonist?

One question I'd love to answer. XD

Two types:

1. The kind who are actually psychotically evil. I'm not talking about the mad James Bond scientist who randomly tells the protagonist about his evil plans and uses genetically mutated sea bass. I'm talking about the kind who mess with the protagonist's mind. The kind who don't have a lab to experiment on puppies but prefer to set puppies' tails on fire instead. The kind who are just messed up, lax angsty past or logical motivation (other than "Heehee! Burn things!") to make them that way. I'm thinking maybe along the lines of Hannibal Lecter.

2. The kind who are evil, even though even the audience can't tell they're evil. They're the kind who act like protagonists but, as a twist, end up being one of the main characters' worst enemies. Prime example: Kaworu Nagisa (Neon Genesis Evangelion). My gods, these kinds of villains have such a potential to make a story interesting because the audience just never knows what they'll do.

 

[Bay]

To combine the two topics on villians, I am actually fine with stupid antagonist if it is their character and if the story is comedy. I have one in "Simplicity" (at another forum), though it's comedy. XD As for his/her assistants, I am also okay if they are stupid too. Like DarkPersian said, the assistants probably don't know what is their leader's plans.

As for villians I like to see: developed ones. What I mean by that is villians who are going towards their goals but also kind of iffy about it. They are not one hundred percent sure if everything will be right because of the protagonists going for him/her, his/her assistants aren't doing their jobs, there were some plans that suddenly didn't worked out, etc. Eventually the villian will realise there were some things that have to change if he/she wanted to make her plans work.

And well, even though there is one fic I have read (a trilogy to be exact) that is with the usual elements of stupid assistants, DNA superpowered Pokemon, and the leader that wanted to take over the world, I still love that fic because the author put a lot of character development on the main characters (both the good and bad characters).

 

[Astinus]

What's your favorite kind of antagonist?
The misunderstood ones. I love reading about enemies who are made out to be evil, and then when defeated, you find that they're not evil and the person who defeats them comes to understand them.

I really think I need to take some time off to read my favorite books again. .-.

Heh, having reviewed for the fandom before writing for it might be a drawback in this case. I mean, after going about and saying what should and shouldn't be done, you have to make really sure that you aren't going against your own advice, ne? xD Besides, if my fic goes into the region of 'bad without any redeeming qualities' my credibility as a reviewer will be shot. *Flails under performance pressure* Bleh, I'm always making too big a deal of these things. xP

Exactly. It's why I'm always rewriting my own fanfic. Because I can see that it's not up to whatever standards I think others hold me at from my reviews. I think that everyone sees me as one of the great writers and I still see myself as a mediocre writer...at best. >>

One of the things that helped me is the quote "To do a common thing, uncommonly well, brings success". I'm hoping that even though all I'm writing is a generic OT fanfic with a generic plot that the quality that I bring to it will make up for not having anything never seen before by the fandom.

 

[Scarlet Weather]

My least favorite kind of antagonist, actually, isn't the cliche villain. It is the villain who does not have the common sense to send in his Admins to do some sort of high-priority heist as opposed to useless grunts who fall to the hero. Actually, I'm pretty tired of the whole "evil team takes over the legendary".

My personal favorite antagonist is a variation on Hanako's. They want to accomplish some sort of goal "for the good of everyone", but they use the wrong methods to do so and disregard anyone who gets hurt along the way. In fact, their recklessness to accomplish their own ends corrupts and destroys them.

 

[Dragonfree]

Regarding the villain issue:

While the head antagonist should not be so stupid as to reveal his/her plan, not all of their subordinates (admins/commanders/executives/grunts/peons/etc) might not be so intelligent. Or show that level of common sense. Or they are overly narcissistic and boastful. After all, the leader only has so much control over their underlings, especially in the field. And any punishment that the leader does inflict on their henchmen will be too little, too late as far as alerting the protagonist.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is, don't have the big leader reveal their plans, but if it fits the character of certain subordinates to let slip tidbits of information, I have no qualms with it.

But why would the subordinates all be stupid? What sort of intelligent antagonist puts bumbling idiots into positions of power in his organization in the first place? Okay, so some of the grunts might perhaps not be the brightest bulbs in the box, sure, but then the head antagonist would NOT leave them in charge of anything remotely approaching importance and especially not anything having to do with the capture or guarding of a prisoner who is a great threat to the organization.

Besides, having the protagonist's life saved by any antagonist's stupidity, no matter how reasonable it might be that this particular antagonist really could theoretically be that dumb, is just lame. I mean, can you get any more anticlimatic than that? Hero has been captured by villains who want him dead, but instead of killing him on the spot, he's put into a prison cell with only one guard who happens to think it's fine to sleep on duty with his keys somewhere in plain sight? Hero has been locked in a room with some elaborate mechanism to kill him activated, and nobody thinks of watching him to make sure he's actually finished off before going to celebrate? Hero is walking somewhere and sees two of the antagonists openly discussing the details of their evil plan where anyone could hear them? A hero who prevails thanks to such passive strokes of luck is one hell of a dull hero and, more importantly, completely fails to make the reader actually want him to win, because he has simply done nothing to deserve it.

So basically, even if you can argue that that half of the evil team is going to have brains the size of peas, then please, please, for the love of God, have it be the other half that's after your protagonist. Nobody likes to read about a hero whose primary feat is having overcome a group of idiots who, had they possessed any inkling of common sense, would have easily killed him in chapter two. Comedy, of course, is an exception to rules like this, since you're never meant to feel like the protagonist is really being threatened, but in any non-comedy, stupid villains are a no-no.


What's your favorite kind of antagonist?
- Antagonists you can sympathize with. The ones you can really, really understand, whose point actually makes a lot of sense when you think about it. The ones who are genuinely troubled and conflicted about the evil they do. I'm a sucker for conflicted characters.
- Antagonists who are utterly psycho in an interesting way, where you read about that antagonist and realize that his mind is messed up in the most twisted yet fascinating way. I love characters with psychological disorders. They absolutely have to be intelligent for this to work, though, and I need to get some actual insight into their minds. Characters who are just there and whose villainy is simply waved off with "Oh, he's just a lunatic" are disappointing.


To expand upon this: What do you like and dislike in a protagonist?

I'm a real sucker for weakness (mental, rather than physical). I don't want them to be whiny crybabies about everything that happens to them or anything, but I melt over scenes where, say, the protagonist lands himself in a situation where he is positive he is about to die and can't do anything about it, stops being Mr. Courageous Hero and just gets really freaking scared (provided it's well written and described, of course). Likewise, "tough guys" who absolutely never have such a moment of weakness even when called for, no matter how otherwise balanced the character may be, don't really strike that chord with me.

In general I love reading about fear, rage and despair, really. I think they're by far the most interesting feelings on the spectrum of human emotion. Definitely far more interesting than the tiresome old romance in my opinion.

 

[Toed]

Hey I'm a rookie here, I have wroten one fan fic. I'll write it all here

Chapter 1
You think I'll actually write a story here, you think.
I'll actually write a story, here, you. Think. I'll. Actually write a story here you think, I'll, actually write a story.
Here, you think.
I'll write a story here.
Once upon a time, You a child met a guy named Think who met a guy named I'll who met a hot girl named Actually who likes Write who met a strange man named A whos sidekick was Story who liked a girl named Here.

Hope you enjoy it!!!

 

[Isaac Gravity]

But why would the subordinates all be stupid? What sort of intelligent antagonist puts bumbling idiots into positions of power in his organization in the first place? Okay, so some of the grunts might perhaps not be the brightest bulbs in the box, sure, but then the head antagonist would NOT leave them in charge of anything remotely approaching importance and especially not anything having to do with the capture or guarding of a prisoner who is a great threat to the organization.

Besides, having the protagonist's life saved by any antagonist's stupidity, no matter how reasonable it might be that this particular antagonist really could theoretically be that dumb, is just lame. I mean, can you get any more anticlimatic than that? Hero has been captured by villains who want him dead, but instead of killing him on the spot, he's put into a prison cell with only one guard who happens to think it's fine to sleep on duty with his keys somewhere in plain sight? Hero has been locked in a room with some elaborate mechanism to kill him activated, and nobody thinks of watching him to make sure he's actually finished off before going to celebrate? Hero is walking somewhere and sees two of the antagonists openly discussing the details of their evil plan where anyone could hear them? A hero who prevails thanks to such passive strokes of luck is one hell of a dull hero and, more importantly, completely fails to make the reader actually want him to win, because he has simply done nothing to deserve it.

So basically, even if you can argue that that half of the evil team is going to have brains the size of peas, then please, please, for the love of God, have it be the other half that's after your protagonist. Nobody likes to read about a hero whose primary feat is having overcome a group of idiots who, had they possessed any inkling of common sense, would have easily killed him in chapter two. Comedy, of course, is an exception to rules like this, since you're never meant to feel like the protagonist is really being threatened, but in any non-comedy, stupid villains are a no-no.

...I don't think that's what she was getting at...

She never said that all subordinates are/will be idiots (at least to not what I read). Think about it, The big boss has his close set who he handpicked (and usually, truly understands their vision) and leaves all his faith and trust in them to carry out his will. That close set will then run some recruitments with probably their own set of favorite subordinates who they give leeway to specific details who will then recruit members on their own and so on.

All I'm saying is that despite the groups "vision" there will be some in there who joined for reasons beyond that. And moreover, are recruited by who knows in that said group but as far as that overall group is concerned are in there as one thing: Extra hands/hired muscle to achieve the dream. Yup, not the smartest but they're brute force gets the job done. Ruthless thugs, bullies, won't be above firearms and blunt weapons will use an extra Pokemon or two the moment their "fair" fight is screwing them over etc. (Man, if something like that happened in the games, specifically Gen III which started the double battle concept... that would've been too cool.)

If these things with hero's outwitting bumbling lowly bad guys bug you so much then simply get annoyed at the sort who abuse this concept. I mean, the game, along with the Rocket trio in the anime, is at fault here too when that's concerned and that are the primary drives to how many writers do stuff. I don't know how people think but they got their reasons that's totally beyond me.

Not everyone/anyone in a said group is gonna know the hero (not until they somehow do so much collateral damage to the team they get blacklisted), but I do agree with your point that even the lowliest of members will NOT be a pushover when it comes to some kid meddling in on their affairs. Who knows, they might just take it easy as its just a kid as the villains in the games always tend to do. But that doesn't make them pea-brained either.

It's really something in the eye of the beholder. Lame or not, DarkPersian479 has a point, the big boss and his mini bosses don't really have total control over their underlings and what they think and do, give a damn about their motives unless they somehow learn of it themselves and deem it a stain to their dream enough to do something about them. It's the author's call if they want their hero to always run off with such innate luck for reasons all their own.

Hah... But yeah, a lot of reasons for that. And oh, please avoid stuff like "Nobody likes..." it feels like your speaking for me and... that pisses me off actually as my ideals aren't like yours.

 

[purple_drake]

What's your favorite kind of antagonist?

Well, ACC-M just mentioned one of my favourite kinds of villains--the kind with the right intentions but totally the wrong means. Unlike him, though, I like seeing those characters redeeming themselves. By that I don't mean suddenly realizing they were wrong at the last minute (through the efforts of the protagonist) and stopping short all their plans; but I do like seeing them survive whatever happens and realizing where they went wrong, and just kind of starting to put their life back together.

Plus conflicted antagonists, like Dragonfree said... and I'll agree with the psychotic antagonist too, but I'll also expand on that and say I love antagonists who can really mess with your protagonist's mind (which often, but not always, goes along with the psychotic thing). Karasu from Yu Yu Hakusho is a good example of that. :3 I love mind games.


What do you like and dislike in a protagonist?

I'm not entirely sure how to answer this one... I'm sure if I thought about it I could think of some things I'm not fond of (saying Mary-Sues/Gary-Stus is a given so I'm not even gonna bother) but most of the time I just go along with however the protagonist is written and if I don't like them then I just forget about them later. O.o

Hmm... well, one thing I can think of is that I love seemingly tough guys (or seemingly cold guys) with a like for something you'd never expect. Like Kuwabara from Yu Yu Hakusho (sorry about all these non-Pokemon refs, I started reading/watching YYH again recently! ^.^;; ), who is, at first glance, your stereotypical brawny tough guy who loves street fighting and isn't too hot at school, but he also really likes studying and is obsessed with cats. So yes, characters with unexpected (but not unrealistic) quirks. :3

I also like snark. :3 And I love calm, unreadable characters (with the optional aura of 'danger') and characters who seem to know everything, but not to the point where they're... hmm, how to explain... 'over-hyped', I guess. They don't constantly lord it over others, it's just what they do.

...although now that I think about it, I usually only like male characters who are like that. O.o Or maybe it's just because the only ones I can think of right now are male.

Female characters are a little harder for me to pinpoint... I'm not particularly fond of really strong-willed women because I can get bored of them really easily, but I also don't like it when the female is a china doll who can't do anything. So something in-between, probably, although I do tend to lean towards shy/reserved female protagonists.

...Oh! I like characters who are devoted parents (or pseudo-parents), too. :3

 

[Dragonfree]

Um, what I said was that the admins, the ones in a position of power, are at least going to be somewhat intelligent, but the grunts perhaps not necessarily. You seem to be stuck in the notion that I was somehow saying every villain on any evil team ever should have an IQ of 200 and be perfectly devoted to the motives of the group, which is not at all what I meant.

My main point was that even if some people in the group are bumbling idiots, having the plot be about a hero escaping a group of bumbling idiots precisely because they are bumbling idiots simply does not make for good fic unless it's comedy. Get annoyed at the people who abuse this concept? To hell with abusing it; I've never seen it done well and can't for the life of me imagine it being "done well", period, no matter how great the writer is, unless that particular villain or group of villains is in the story for purely comedic purposes (i.e. not to provide some actual conflict for the story). Sure, an author can do it if he likes, but it will just not be interesting. It never even crossed my mind that any person on Earth could find it exciting to watch a hero escape a group of utterly incompetent villains simply because they're incompetent; it struck me as the kind of thing that's not exciting by definition, hence why I felt fairly justified in claiming that "nobody likes" it. People can like it for comedic reasons, that is, if that's what the idiot villains are there for, but it just makes for one hell of a weak conflict.

Also note that seeing some random ten-year-old and not assuming he/she is going to be a major threat =/= incompetence or stupidity. That is perfectly reasonable. It becomes stupidity when it is blatantly obvious that the person isn't just any random ten-year-old and they're still not taking reasonable precautions, or when, on the assumption that it's just a random ten-year-old, the villains somehow figure the kid won't call the police if he's just heard them openly describe their planned assault on important corporation X. It may well be realistic for some of the villains to be stupid and incompetent, but it's just painfully uninteresting to read about villains whose stupidity and incompetence is used as a plot device to get the hero on with the story. It's kind of like characters going to the bathroom. Yeah, sure, it's realistic, but that doesn't mean it's something people want to read about.

 

[Astinus]

Hey I'm a rookie here, I have wroten one fan fic. I'll write it all here

Chapter 1
You think I'll actually write a story here, you think.
I'll actually write a story, here, you. Think. I'll. Actually write a story here you think, I'll, actually write a story.
Here, you think.
I'll write a story here.
Once upon a time, You a child met a guy named Think who met a guy named I'll who met a hot girl named Actually who likes Write who met a strange man named A whos sidekick was Story who liked a girl named Here.

Hope you enjoy it!!!

Dude, that's just spam. It's completely random and has no place here since it's not even a real story. It's just utter nonsense. So you know, either talk about the subject we're talking about now, ask a question concerning fanfiction, or don't post. No random stories about nothing. Learn about how things are handled around here to avoid trouble.

What do you like and dislike in a protagonist?
I like the protagonist who has some inner demon to conquer. Like their views on the world get changed from what they originally thought over the course of the book. They have to go out with some flaw and learn to overcome that flaw in some way.

I dislike the perfect protagonist, who can't do anything wrong at all. They're made out to be perfect in whatever they attempt to do, and they attempt to do anything. There's never anything that they can do wrong, whether it be Pokemon battling or relations with other people.

On the "bumbling antagonist" subject, isn't that how things are normally run with evil crime things? (Unless I am completely wrong, which I could be, since I never studied the history of evil crime syndicates.) There's the head honcho of the scene, who's running the whole mess, keeping his eyes on everything so that things go his way. Then there are the people below him, who take care of controlling the grunt group. And then in the grunt group, there's bound to be some grunts who are so excited that they're helping the boss that they make some mistake. Like celebrating that they captured the hero and haven't yet killed the hero. Those sent to do the meaningless grunt group are bound to make mistakes.

And it's as Isaac said with the evil team fighting a young trainer. In the beginning, nothing is going to look like a serious threat to the evil side unless it's some official, like a Gym Leader or even the Elite. The grunts aren't going to see some punky ten-year-old kid, or however old the hero is, and think that they're in trouble until they start losing to the hero. The hero might get easy streak in the beginning, and might meet the grunts who make a mistake.

 

[Elite Overlord LeSabre™]

First, I just posted Chapter 3 of my fic! Please read and review!

Just to elaborate on my stance on villain underlings:

It doesn't matter how smart the leader is, unless he's got ESP, it's impossible for him to know every detail and characteristic of every person he hires. I'm going to briefly mention that emotions like anger and fear can cause a person to momentarily act out of character (i.e., your normally calm and subdued underling going ballistic and spouting off details when they're close to defeat), as when emotions run high, mistakes can be made that ordinarily wouldn't be made. Not that this should happen each and every time, but occasionally, emotion should get the best of a villain.

Some people excel at hiding their true intentions. In the villain example, consider a person who's simply joining for the power and wealth, not caring about the leader's true vision. He can be all, "Yup, totally agree with you" during the interview process, and even afterward when having meetings with the boss, but on the field they follow their own agenda. The head honcho can take every precaution to make sure their underlings are all on board with the plan, but having a tight-knit organization without any rogue agents is nearly as unrealistic as having a gang of total morons.

In real life, think of the company that ends up hiring someone who defrauds the company, or the school that hires a teacher who turns out to be a child predator. Of course, if the company or school knew of these intentions, the person would never get the job. But these people can be so skilled at throwing up a facade of being an upstanding citizen that the higher-ups never have a clue about these ulterior motives until the damage has been done. And running background checks won't always pick up these guys either, with the amount of identity theft we have today. So realistically, picking up on a person's true intentions can be difficult, regardless of how intelligent or how many resources the recruiting party may have at their disposal.

No, not every grunt should be an idiot. But, all members needn't be this perfect group of flawless villains. IMO, both are rather unrealistic situations. Your villains don't need to be idiots, but nor do they need to be perfect, unemotional drones.

 

[Isaac Gravity]

Well everyone's defended their points in the past and I'll defend mine.

Um, what I said was that the admins, the ones in a position of power, are at least going to be somewhat intelligent, but the grunts perhaps not necessarily. You seem to be stuck in the notion that I was somehow saying every villain on any evil team ever should have an IQ of 200 and be perfectly devoted to the motives of the group, which is not at all what I meant.

Okay, first, don't put words in my mouth and assume what I'm saying for your gain. If I read what you wrote correctly then you touched villains in general and questioned why the head or higher ups (not just admins) would leave "idiots" in charge, thus pulling out other points about hero being boring if they get through because of botch-ups. That's the basic argument of that post. Not the stuff you're trying to clarify for me, but thanks for that. I am a simpleton like that.

Sadly to say, I'm not stuck on any notion, I call it how I see it. And because of that I brought about my reasoning about the big boss has his group (the admins) they, while carrying out their missions, may have their favorite few who they trust and they may have their subordinates and so forth. So who gets into the group and why and how they think and why is totally up to them and the various media points people pool these ideas from. (Or the writer whose making them...fair enough) THAT'S what I argued.

I felt fairly justified in claiming that "nobody likes" it. People can like it for comedic reasons, that is, if that's what the idiot villains are there for, but it just makes for one hell of a weak conflict.

Sorry, couldn't use the ahead part, wanted to get to the point. That's all good and nice for you, but that point you made doesn't justify anything. If anything, it just justifies why you and those willing to step up feel it doesn't work. I couldn't give a damn why someone wants to do what they do but I'm not gonna twiddle my thumbs and have someone self-righteously (if not narrowly and indirectly) proclaim under the fic or entertainment name what I like seeing!

EDIT: Not every conflict (villain related or not) in a chapter has to be some giant epic/psychological field-scape/happy-go-lucky merry go around with villains/morals of the day after all. And that's the vibe I'm starting to get from you in general with that comment, so do correct me if I'm wrong.

Also note that seeing some random ten-year-old and not assuming he/she is going to be a major threat =/= incompetence or stupidity.

I never made such a point, please don't screw around with my words. I said a mere muscle (grunt) of a group may not be the smartest (for the sake of reference to the topic but hey I don't know what another author has planned) but that won't mean they'll let anyone meddle or get too close to their operations but might take it easy if its a kid or not due to the nature the writer gave them. But that kid can be seen as a threat overtime if enough damage is done on their part (EDIT) but even then, would the said villain in question truly care? Too many factors come into play with these kinda things, I don't wanna narrow it down to get a point across or am capable of listing every existant scenario. All I can say is that there's more to it that it seems and should be taken into account, intresting to you or not...

If anything, Hanako better emphasized what I tried to describe so look at that point if I'm not a viable enough source.

Never flat out said you're wrong, I just don't agree with (or honestly like) your approach as I have my own ideals and pretty much agreed with DarkPersian479's stance on things. The villain underling, which I took to the whole big bad organization rank system, especially the grunts because I'm such a grandstander like that. "Nobody likes..." was what got me riled enough to post at all. Self-righteous? Maybe, but I'm in here for me.

 

[Grovyle42(Griff8416)]

I like complicated protagonists and I don't like protagonists who are completely static and/or are very "Ash-like".