• Our software update is now concluded. You will need to reset your password to log in. In order to do this, you will have to click "Log in" in the top right corner and then "Forgot your password?".
  • Welcome to PokéCommunity! Register now and join one of the best fan communities on the 'net to talk Pokémon and more! We are not affiliated with The Pokémon Company or Nintendo.

US President Obama expands Afganistan War

Should the President have expanded the Afganistan War?

  • Yes, and we must finish our objectives there.

    Votes: 2 14.3%
  • Yes, but our commitments must not be open-ended.

    Votes: 4 28.6%
  • No, we should have began withrawal ASAP.

    Votes: 8 57.1%

  • Total voters
    14

Uecil

[img]https://i.ibb.co/4jfYrCT/tHdpHUB.png[/img]
  • 2,568
    Posts
    14
    Years
    america gets alot of support i learnt it from my general studies lesson that they get public, goverment,financial, scientific and much more support yes but like what are we fighting for exactly? power everyones got it in them but on the contrary this is silly millions of people die fighting about differences and why cant they fight it out with the people that is the cause of it?
     

    Agent Cobalt

    Proud U.S. Army Soldier
  • 191
    Posts
    15
    Years
    The Axis Powers may no longer exist, but Nazis sure do. Neo Nazis may not be in huge numbers but they still exist.
    Does Nazi Germany though? The point is eliminating state sponsors of terror and disrupting the terror network, not policing thought. Yeah, we have commies in our universities, but they aren't immediate threats like the Soviets were. Yes there are skinheads, but they're not sinking our ships with U-boats. I think a little context is needed here.
    On a separate note, I'm not entirely sure on how the American system works, but I heard that in the Iraq war we (including Britain here) went in despite the fact that the UN deemed it an unjust cause. I may have just made that up, I'm not sure, but I'm certain that one of the things needed to be in the UN is to only fight in wars that they have voted to back up (so's the abolition of the death penalty but that's another story).
    The UN can deem whatever it wants. It's a body of dictatorships, socialists, terrorist states, and anti-semitic leadership. Yeah, it's illegal if you believe Kofi Annan, the most corrupt Secretary-General in history. Otherwise it's completely justifiable taking into account United Nations Security Council Resolutions 660, 661, 662, 664, 665, 666, 667, 669, 670, 671, 674, 677, 678, 685, 686, 687, 688, 689, 692, 699, 700, 705, 706, 707, 712, 715, 773, 778, 806, 833, 899, 986, 1111, 1115, 1129, 1134, 1137, 1143, 1153, 1154, 1158, 1175, 1194, 1205, 1210, 1241, 1243, 1266, 1275, 1280, 1281, 1284, 1302, 1330, 1352, 1360, 1382, 1409, 1441, 1443, 1447, 1454, 1476, 1483, and so on.

    america gets alot of support i learnt it from my general studies lesson that they get public, goverment,financial, scientific and much more support yes
    We really don't get that much support. The leading nine countries combined only have 29,860 troops in, well under even half what the US has there. Those nine BTW are the only ones that have sent at least 1,000 troops in. You know how many troops Austria has in Afghanistan to "support" us? Four. Not four hundred, not four thousand, just four. You know who we get the most support from? Afghanistan itself, which has over 90,000 troops protecting its country and fighting alongside us. Of our biggest allies, France is refusing to send more, Canada is going to pull out, the British want a pullout date, and only the Australians and Poles are reliably sticking around.
    but like what are we fighting for exactly? power everyones got it in them but on the contrary this is silly millions of people die fighting about differences
    It amazes me how people ask "what are we fighting for in Afghanistan" like an open-ended question, like it's just as unanswerable as "why are we here?" How can anyone not possibly know why we're in Afghanistan?
    and why cant they fight it out with the people that is the cause of it?
    ...What do you think we're doing? We're not fighting the Chinese over there.
     
    Last edited:

    Feign

    Clain
  • 4,293
    Posts
    15
    Years
    • Seen Jan 25, 2023
    That's pretty much what it came down to. Lack of communication between levels of government and intelligence, incompetent leadership in the 90's, and so on. I implore you, before you side with any conspiracy theorists like those Loose Change nuts, visit sites like Popular Mechanics which use real science and evidence to debunk the myths and lies of conspiracy theorists. If you don't know the science or about architecture then the wild claims you get from Loos Change and whatnot might seem plausible, but not after learning the facts.

    Call me naive, but I don't have the intention of watching Loose Change XD Though of course, we could add another conspiracy theory into the bucket, saying that Popular Mechanics was paid to say so. XD Of course I don't have time or the money to find out for myself (getting a degree in engineering among other things).

    Uhh, no, the civilian casualties, while high, were not intentional. There were military targets in those cities. The atomic bombings, like the bombing of Dresden in Germany, has been twisted into a purposeful attack on civilians. We were annihilating military targets. Yes, the cities had many people in them, but it had to be done to avoid further casualties and force Japan's surrender.

    I suppose then they were expecting a high level of innocent casualties...

    And considering the enemy in this war is largely in the mountains of Pakistan, a nuclear power, I don't see it happening. I'd rather focus on missiles, predator drones, and boots.

    Ah yeah... the whole MAD issue would arise from that...

    Why's this about culture? <=/The soldiers have done a phenomenal job. Again, we accomplished more in our invasion alone than the USSR and British accomplished their entire occupations. And yes, resources (like troops) could be used more wisely. Like increasing manpower and making a troop surge. >_<

    Might have just been a misuse of the word (as I explained at the bottom of my previous post, XD). Is that your own personal bias though that the soldiers are doing a phenomenal job? :P (There's that whole 'I respect the soldiers, but I don't like what it is they are doing' thing).

    As for carpet bombing, it's been done by the Russians, but they did it against civilians. Not sure how effective it'd be for us doing it in mountains. For one it's part of Pakistan and they're always complaining about their sovereignty. Second, it'd probably be more effective using what we're already using- predator drones. They can take out specific targets rather easily.What's that have to do with anything? <=/

    Speculating out loud (so that an end can come to this soon)... Sovereignty... I have mixed feelings for that... I mean we're all human beings, isn't it just as easy to be under one nation? I know it isn't as easy as that... (what with ideals etc etc), but concern for power just seems so irrelevant... Are people just that materialistic? They just want to have that power for their lifetime?

    They're still shining examples of the liberalization and reconstruction. They're rich, technologically advanced, civilized, and free. Birthrates... that's kind of on them.

    Or the world for that matter X_x Demographists believe that India will soon exceed China in the country with the largest population...

    I'm torn though... I realize that if you wanted to live the life you wanted to, and were impeded by a warring nation, I would think it right to defend that freedom... The thing is at some point it gets to be pointless, especially if it is some kind of dragged out several generations thing, such as the middle east... At which point, you'd think common sense would pervade. However that is not the case... Parents teaching kids who the bad guys are (etc). Like at the same time, war shouldn't be necessary, and yet it exists... If only it were easy enough to oudst those, who are and were responsible for the ideals of power to begin with (among other things), but like before... it isn't as simple as that...

    If the armys of two nations could be taught to live in peace, I'd think of that as the best outcome... Take for example the Protestant and Catholic Irish, they've been in various conflicts over time, and while not war-like it is the same idea. What some people ended up doing, is starting a kind of program, where both Catholic and Protestant teenage kids were brought in to live with each other for a month. At first they were quite hostile towards each other, but soon began to like each other, and were phased by the fact that once the program was over, they'd have to go back home to their family's view (while not wholy accepting it, the pressure to do so could be great).

    I don't know... XD
     

    Agent Cobalt

    Proud U.S. Army Soldier
  • 191
    Posts
    15
    Years
    Is that your own personal bias though that the soldiers are doing a phenomenal job?
    No, just historicity. We were able to invade Afghanistan, connect with the Northern Alliance (the opposition of the Taliban), overthrow the Taliban, secure Afghanistan's gas pipelines and resources, rebuild a stable government, introduce democracy, and put the terrorists on the run and into hiding. The Soviets faced constant struggles through their nine years of war and left with their tails between their legs, demoralized, embarrassed, and with tens of thousands of casualties. We gave them their own little Vietnam. We on the other hand haven't even reached nine hundred casualties in eight years and have made many advances.
    Speculating out loud (so that an end can come to this soon)... Sovereignty... I have mixed feelings for that... I mean we're all human beings, isn't it just as easy to be under one nation? I know it isn't as easy as that... (what with ideals etc etc), but concern for power just seems so irrelevant... Are people just that materialistic? They just want to have that power for their lifetime?
    Uhh, I know I don't want to live under a one world government, and I'm sure most people don't. Global trade, good. Global governance, not at all. It's understandable that Pakistan wants to defend its borders; think of how many Americans are pissed about our open borders. The problem is that we're not the invaders, the terrorists are; we're allies and still Pakistan is resistant to allowing us to be more involved in the mountains. That's the problem. They're allies and yet not the most cooperative. Granted most of their people literally support al-Qaeda over the US and the government faces a lot of internal opposition to taking on Islamists. It's complicated.
    I'm torn though... I realize that if you wanted to live the life you wanted to, and were impeded by a warring nation, I would think it right to defend that freedom... The thing is at some point it gets to be pointless, especially if it is some kind of dragged out several generations thing, such as the middle east... At which point, you'd think common sense would pervade. However that is not the case... Parents teaching kids who the bad guys are (etc). Like at the same time, war shouldn't be necessary, and yet it exists... If only it were easy enough to oudst those, who are and were responsible for the ideals of power to begin with (among other things), but like before... it isn't as simple as that...
    War will always exist, and honestly, while it's not pretty it's often a necessary tool of nations and people to settle disputes. As a Christian I can't in good conscience support the abolition of war. Rather, it is the just war we should advocate and the unjust war we should oppose.
    If the armys of two nations could be taught to live in peace, I'd think of that as the best outcome... Take for example the Protestant and Catholic Irish, they've been in various conflicts over time, and while not war-like it is the same idea. What some people ended up doing, is starting a kind of program, where both Catholic and Protestant teenage kids were brought in to live with each other for a month. At first they were quite hostile towards each other, but soon began to like each other, and were phased by the fact that once the program was over, they'd have to go back home to their family's view (while not wholy accepting it, the pressure to do so could be great).
    The hostility probably goes back to the Reformation era. Honestly that's a cultural difference that those people can choose to reconcile on their own; it really isn't my concern. I really can't say much about the Irish other than I dig them not having a high corporate tax.
     

    Feign

    Clain
  • 4,293
    Posts
    15
    Years
    • Seen Jan 25, 2023
    No, just historicity. We were able to invade Afghanistan, connect with the Northern Alliance (the opposition of the Taliban), overthrow the Taliban, secure Afghanistan's gas pipelines and resources, rebuild a stable government, introduce democracy, and put the terrorists on the run and into hiding. The Soviets faced constant struggles through their nine years of war and left with their tails between their legs, demoralized, embarrassed, and with tens of thousands of casualties. We gave them their own little Vietnam. We on the other hand haven't even reached nine hundred casualties in eight years and have made many advances.Uhh, I know I don't want to live under a one world government, and I'm sure most people don't. Global trade, good. Global governance, not at all. It's understandable that Pakistan wants to defend its borders; think of how many Americans are pissed about our open borders. The problem is that we're not the invaders, the terrorists are; we're allies and still Pakistan is resistant to allowing us to be more involved in the mountains. That's the problem. They're allies and yet not the most cooperative. Granted most of their people literally support al-Qaeda over the US and the government faces a lot of internal opposition to taking on Islamists. It's complicated.War will always exist, and honestly, while it's not pretty it's often a necessary tool of nations and people to settle disputes. As a Christian I can't in good conscience support the abolition of war. Rather, it is the just war we should advocate and the unjust war we should oppose.The hostility probably goes back to the Reformation era. Honestly that's a cultural difference that those people can choose to reconcile on their own; it really isn't my concern. I really can't say much about the Irish other than I dig them not having a high corporate tax.

    The thing is though, with wars at the soldier level they are merely tools... Think of a child who grew up in a nation unlike our own, one with a different religion and ideals. We could presume this child to be innocent. Then perhaps they are told to go to war for the betterment of their country and the countries of others. Assuming the person thinks this all right, what is it to the opposition, to that one other person who has had the same or similar experience, and believes their views to be right? Is it just right for the army that has the most power (etc) to win? Even the ideals of right and wrong are pretty vague here.

    It's a bit unfair really... Is how I see it...

    Of course while impossible, I wish it could be so that everyone would adopt the same viewpoint on the frutilessness of power and such...

    Then is it merely lucky for me that I live in a free nation where for the most part I can choose on what to do with my life?

    I suppose at this point I am driving myself into a circular argument... XD

    And while I would like to continue, I must do my stupid essay, so if I do not respond today, you'll know why. XD
     

    Agent Cobalt

    Proud U.S. Army Soldier
  • 191
    Posts
    15
    Years
    The thing is though, with wars at the soldier level they are merely tools...
    No, we're just soldiers doing our job, and that job happens to be executing war and killing our enemies. We're not being taken advantage of; we're doing our job and following our contractual obligations to our country, Constitution, and people.
    Think of a child who grew up in a nation unlike our own, one with a different religion and ideals. We could presume this child to be innocent. Then perhaps they are told to go to war for the betterment of their country and the countries of others. Assuming the person thinks this all right, what is it to the opposition, to that one other person who has had the same or similar experience, and believes their views to be right? Is it just right for the army that has the most power (etc) to win? Even the ideals of right and wrong are pretty vague here.
    Unpleasant an answer as it might be, the answer is obvious- justice doesn't always prevail and the weak will die. As for America's enemies? They're going to die too, and hopefully as quickly as possible. There's a right and a wrong, and while someone with a different world view might disagree on what right and wrong are, that's not going to stop an M16 from blowing holes in their chest cavities after they tried attacking a convoy. I'm not a moral relativist. Evil is evil, regardless of what some seventh century barbarians in the mountains of Pakistan think. Either murder is wrong everywhere, or it's not wrong at all.
    It's a bit unfair really... Is how I see it...
    War isn't about fairness, and neither is life. Fairness is a relative concept, and justice and morality aren't relative.
    Then is it merely lucky for me that I live in a free nation where for the most part I can choose on what to do with my life?
    Yes. You and many others, myself included, were blessed by God and should thank Him every dang chance available for being born free men. And God bless those souls not as lucky.
     

    Feign

    Clain
  • 4,293
    Posts
    15
    Years
    • Seen Jan 25, 2023
    No, we're just soldiers doing our job, and that job happens to be executing war and killing our enemies. We're not being taken advantage of; we're doing our job and following our contractual obligations to our country, Constitution, and people.Unpleasant an answer as it might be, the answer is obvious- justice doesn't always prevail and the weak will die. As for America's enemies? They're going to die too, and hopefully as quickly as possible. There's a right and a wrong, and while someone with a different world view might disagree on what right and wrong are, that's not going to stop an M16 from blowing holes in their chest cavities after they tried attacking a convoy. I'm not a moral relativist. Evil is evil, regardless of what some seventh century barbarians in the mountains of Pakistan think. Either murder is wrong everywhere, or it's not wrong at all.War isn't about fairness, and neither is life. Fairness is a relative concept, and justice and morality aren't relative.Yes. You and many others, myself included, were blessed by God and should thank Him every dang chance available for being born free men. And God bless those souls not as lucky.

    That death, and ascension would perhaps be the best outcome for those that are innocent but otherwise in the wrong place?

    Would I not have a bias towards the side I was born under? Is that natural or right?

    While I realize we are ebbing slightly off topic, I do feel I have to mention it.

    I believe that we were not fated thus thanking God isn't necessary... I am what would be called a Deist, so I believe in God, one that is watching his creation off in the distance (after setting off a chain of reactions that was the big bang, knowing that humanity would eventually come about). Furthermore, I do not believe in a Heaven or Hell... Just a Kingdom where everyone will go and develop the same understanding of God and Love. Then with that, I say that morals are relative, and a Human created thing. Which further emphasizes my thoughts that because there is no right or wrong, people are free to experience life as they see fit. This doesn't mean people should become anarchical, I mean we have to function in a society somehow... So the morals that one learns as a child are important.

    That is why I find that humanity, at the most basic level is free, and is all fair, and equal, regardless of anything. It is the social (etc) barriers that we bring up that change the way things are, such as the economy and how there are poor people.

    I cannot accept the fact that God willed particular people to be poor etc.

    That is why I find the war to be pointless, because I don't see Americans fighting Afghans (etc). I see humanity fighting humanity...

    One thing I do not understand (perhaps besides tradition and memories associated with that person) is why a person's grave often times has an American flag upon it... I mean God wouldn't give a hoot where you were from...

    Yeah I responded XD Despite my ever domineering essay.
     

    Agent Cobalt

    Proud U.S. Army Soldier
  • 191
    Posts
    15
    Years
    That death, and ascension would perhaps be the best outcome for those that are innocent but otherwise in the wrong place?
    Nobody is innocent. Perhaps in the wrong place at the wrong time. And yes, death comes to the terrorist even if he's only pointing an AK-47 because his parents didn't hug him enough.
    Would I not have a bias towards the side I was born under? Is that natural or right?
    Yes you would, it's the human condition.
    I believe that we were not fated thus thanking God isn't necessary... I am what would be called a Deist, so I believe in God, one that is watching his creation off in the distance (after setting off a chain of reactions that was the big bang, knowing that humanity would eventually come about). Furthermore, I do not believe in a Heaven or Hell... Just a Kingdom where everyone will go and develop the same understanding of God and Love. Then with that, I say that morals are relative, and a Human created thing. Which further emphasizes my thoughts that because there is no right or wrong, people are free to experience life as they see fit. This doesn't mean people should become anarchical, I mean we have to function in a society somehow... So the morals that one learns as a child are important.
    Ah, Deism. I used to be a Deist as well. However I soon drifted from it realizing a fallacy in my thinking. What kind of God creates yet cares not for his creations? I then saw that it was obvious that any god would care about the condition of his creations and became more open to the interventionist god. Regardless, my God is a law giver, and just as the stars and heavens follow laws so too must mankind. And those morals are universal and trump all tribal instincts. God's law above the law of the jungle. And if morals here are different than in Communist China, that doesn't make both equal, it makes one right and the other wrong.
    That is why I find that humanity, at the most basic level is free, and is all fair, and equal, regardless of anything. It is the social (etc) barriers that we bring up that change the way things are, such as the economy and how there are poor people.
    That's what we call the state of nature. It's where natural rights, or God-given rights, originate. Man was created free and thus should live as such.
    I cannot accept the fact that God willed particular people to be poor etc.
    Never said God willed people poor or wants them so.
    That is why I find the war to be pointless, because I don't see Americans fighting Afghans (etc). I see humanity fighting humanity...
    It's actually more about Americans and Afghans fighting Islamists.
    One thing I do not understand (perhaps besides tradition and memories associated with that person) is why a person's grave often times has an American flag upon it... I mean God wouldn't give a hoot where you were from...
    Usually as a show of allegiance, or a symbol of national service.
     

    Feign

    Clain
  • 4,293
    Posts
    15
    Years
    • Seen Jan 25, 2023
    Nobody is innocent. Perhaps in the wrong place at the wrong time. And yes, death comes to the terrorist even if he's only pointing an AK-47 because his parents didn't hug him enough.Yes you would, it's the human condition.Ah, Deism. I used to be a Deist as well. However I soon drifted from it realizing a fallacy in my thinking. What kind of God creates yet cares not for his creations? I then saw that it was obvious that any god would care about the condition of his creations and became more open to the interventionist god. Regardless, my God is a law giver, and just as the stars and heavens follow laws so too must mankind. And those morals are universal and trump all tribal instincts. God's law above the law of the jungle. And if morals here are different than in Communist China, that doesn't make both equal, it makes one right and the other wrong.That's what we call the state of nature. It's where natural rights, or God-given rights, originate. Man was created free and thus should live as such.Never said God willed people poor or wants them so.It's actually more about Americans and Afghans fighting Islamists.Usually as a show of allegiance, or a symbol of national service.

    Jesuits and Missionaries aside, isn't that a bit silly? An isolated tribe in the Amazon (in what people would say that they hadn't been "saved"...) are wrong?

    I figure that because God just watches from the distance, he lets humanity experience mortality of its own accord, and then directs them or something like that in the afterlife.

    Dang I should really stop... Essay... >.>
     

    Agent Cobalt

    Proud U.S. Army Soldier
  • 191
    Posts
    15
    Years
    Jesuits and Missionaries aside, isn't that a bit silly? An isolated tribe in the Amazon (in what people would say that they hadn't been "saved"...) are wrong?

    I figure that because God just watches from the distance, he lets humanity experience mortality of its own accord, and then directs them or something like that in the afterlife.

    Dang I should really stop... Essay... >.>
    Well if a child is wrong upon birth, then yeah I'm guessing jungle pagans are too. <=/
     

    Feign

    Clain
  • 4,293
    Posts
    15
    Years
    • Seen Jan 25, 2023
    And the only way to save them is to bring the word of God to them and hear their confessional belief?

    Still seems unfair (and not just in a religious sense either).

    Ironically, the paper I am currently writing, is that of the King James Bible. Not directly about its scripture etc. But rather the style it was written, why it was written, King James' actual role etc
     

    Rich Boy Rob

    "Fezzes are cool." The Doctor
  • 1,051
    Posts
    15
    Years
    • Seen Mar 15, 2016
    Nobody is innocent. Perhaps in the wrong place at the wrong time. And yes, death comes to the terrorist even if he's only pointing an AK-47 because his parents didn't hug him enough.Yes you would, it's the human condition.Ah, Deism. I used to be a Deist as well. However I soon drifted from it realizing a fallacy in my thinking. What kind of God creates yet cares not for his creations? I then saw that it was obvious that any god would care about the condition of his creations and became more open to the interventionist god. Regardless, my God is a law giver, and just as the stars and heavens follow laws so too must mankind. And those morals are universal and trump all tribal instincts. God's law above the law of the jungle. And if morals here are different than in Communist China, that doesn't make both equal, it makes one right and the other wrong.That's what we call the state of nature. It's where natural rights, or God-given rights, originate. Man was created free and thus should live as such.Never said God willed people poor or wants them so.It's actually more about Americans and Afghans fighting Islamists.Usually as a show of allegiance, or a symbol of national service.
    That has to seriously be the most ignorant thing I've ever heard. Is your view of the world really that black and white? Just because you believe that your views are better than another's, doesn't make yours right and theirs wrong. There are probably ideals in both parties that are just as good, and surely a mixture of the two can at least possibly lead to a better quality of life, which is what morals are about are they not?

    I don't know if that made sense or not, as it was quite hard to write what I mean.
     

    Agent Cobalt

    Proud U.S. Army Soldier
  • 191
    Posts
    15
    Years
    That has to seriously be the most ignorant thing I've ever heard.
    Oh please. Do you even know what ignorant means? Everyone and their mother uses that word to describe anything and everything they don't like or agree with. "If you don't agree with X, Y, or Z then you're ignorant!" "You think ___? You're ignorant!" I'm lacking very little in understanding that part of the world, especially considering I'm a soldier and historian. Seriously, take that elsewhere.
    Is your view of the world really that black and white?
    Yes. There's a right and a wrong, and no in between. There's no gray. I know that's hard for supporters of moral ambiguity to support, but not me.
    Just because you believe that your views are better than another's, doesn't make yours right and theirs wrong.
    Ugh, so what you're saying is, my opinion is my opinion. I'll never understand the need for people to point the obvious out to people (that their position is an opinion) in an effort to validate every other opinion. As if I'm speaking for everybody else.
    There are probably ideals in both parties that are just as good, and surely a mixture of the two can at least possibly lead to a better quality of life
    This is called moral relativism, and it's a meaningless attempt to validate backwards societies and cultures and put them on the same level as civilized society. All cultures are not equal, the mere idea is ludicrous.

    "I mean, sure, Nazi Germany *may have* done *some* "bad" things by our standards, but think of how they modernized highways! See, all societies have something to offer!"

    I mean, this line of thinking is so far out of left field.
    which is what morals are about are they not?
    No. Morals are principles or habits with respect to right or wrong conduct. That's it. Right and wrong are the criteria for morals, not relative ideals.
     

    Feign

    Clain
  • 4,293
    Posts
    15
    Years
    • Seen Jan 25, 2023
    That has to seriously be the most ignorant thing I've ever heard. Is your view of the world really that black and white? Just because you believe that your views are better than another's, doesn't make yours right and theirs wrong. There are probably ideals in both parties that are just as good, and surely a mixture of the two can at least possibly lead to a better quality of life, which is what morals are about are they not?

    I don't know if that made sense or not, as it was quite hard to write what I mean.

    It's not that he (and other Christians) believe their views to be better, but rather know they are right. It could be classified as ignorance, but it could also be classified as a strong conviction to one's faith. So I understand where the Christians are coming from, but like you I don't agree with it. Of course in several religions this is where the line is... When it is crossed you get Extremists and Fundamentalists...

    EDIT: Ninja'd; Was I on the spot though Cobalt? XD (Finished the essay btw)
     

    Uecil

    [img]https://i.ibb.co/4jfYrCT/tHdpHUB.png[/img]
  • 2,568
    Posts
    14
    Years
    I don't have much against Obama, but I hate that we're staying in there until 2011 now.. ><;

    I was really hoping that he would pull the troops out soon, not send more in, and give them two more years to stay there, thus destroy more of their lives. D:[/QUOT

    yes i agree but the more we send the more they die and were left with guilt
     

    Agent Cobalt

    Proud U.S. Army Soldier
  • 191
    Posts
    15
    Years
    And the only way to save them is to bring the word of God to them and hear their confessional belief?
    If by confession you mean that stuff with priests? No, that's not biblical at all, it's just something made up and passed down by Catholic tradition; I'm a Protestant and stick to what the Bible teaches, so faith alone is the path to salvation.
    Still seems unfair (and not just in a religious sense either).
    Well, since we're born into sin because of man's transgressions, I'd hardly call it unfair. It's a consequence really.

    Anyway, on a more on-topic note- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJGS4VHdMpc

    Just thought that'd be funny to anyone who wasn't won over by hope and change.

    It's not that he (and other Christians) believe their views to be better, but rather know they are right. It could be classified as ignorance, but it could also be classified as a strong conviction to one's faith. So I understand where the Christians are coming from, but like you I don't agree with it. Of course in several religions this is where the line is... When it is crossed you get Extremists and Fundamentalists...

    EDIT: Ninja'd; Was I on the spot though Cobalt? XD (Finished the essay btw)
    Well if by extremists you mean murders or something, I guess. Fundamentalist though? All that means is that you believe what the Bible says, so really every Christian should be a fundamentalist. To not be one is to deny major doctrines of the faith, thus not really being a part of it.

    But yes I would agree with your assessment that Christians know in their hearts that their faith and thus codes are right. I do. It is a very strong conviction indeed. There's nothing ignorant about it.
     
    Last edited:

    twocows

    The not-so-black cat of ill omen
  • 4,307
    Posts
    15
    Years
    Yes. There's a right and a wrong, and no in between. There's no gray. I know that's hard for supporters of moral ambiguity to support, but not me.
    Suppose you've been convicted of treason, and the punishment is the death of one of your children (you have multiple children). Which child's life should be taken? If the world was as black and white as the moral absolutists claim, there would be a clear-cut solution. I certainly can't think of one, though.
     
    Last edited:

    Agent Cobalt

    Proud U.S. Army Soldier
  • 191
    Posts
    15
    Years
    Suppose you've been convicted of treason, and the punishment is the death of one of your children (you have multiple children). Which child's life should be taken? If the world was as black and white as the moral absolutists claim, there would be a clear-cut solution. I certainly can't think of one, though.
    There are so many logical fallacies present here it's overwhelming. I'm not sure if this qualifies as an Argumentum Ad Speculum, a Straw Man, Misleading Vividness, Many Questions, or Argumentum Ad Temperantiam. Regardless, you've created a ridiculous hypothetic situation in which you've presupposed that the black and white is choosing Child A or Child B. That presupposition is the imploding factor of your hypothetical, because no Christian is ever to sacrifice a life, especially a child. Assuming this was me, which you've suggested, I'd make a plea to the established authority to take my life instead. This whole situation is also rediculous because it's pressuming I'd commit treason. It assumes that I'm willing to commit treason against my country but also care about my children.

    Your attempt to trap me is rather weak. Unshaken, I reject your gray middleground once more.
     

    Feign

    Clain
  • 4,293
    Posts
    15
    Years
    • Seen Jan 25, 2023
    If by confession you mean that stuff with priests? No, that's not biblical at all, it's just something made up and passed down by Catholic tradition; I'm a Protestant and stick to what the Bible teaches, so faith alone is the path to salvation.Well, since we're born into sin because of man's transgressions, I'd hardly call it unfair. It's a consequence really.

    I used 'confession' in the wrong sense then, Perhaps professing, admitting or acknowledging might have been better.

    Also, I think you've already made out that I don't believe in sin at birth (again with that aspect of fairness mentioned earlier). A consequence to existence in and of itself, I find to be mortality... Not to say that I wish to extend my life, but rather that I only have one chance to experience a mortal life.

    Anyway, on a more on-topic note- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJGS4VHdMpc

    Just thought that'd be funny to anyone who wasn't won over by hope and change.
    Politicians :rolleyes: XD

    Well if by extremists you mean murders or something, I guess. Fundamentalist though? All that means is that you believe what the Bible says, so really every Christian should be a fundamentalist. To not be one is to deny major doctrines of the faith, thus not really being a part of it.
    I meant extremism in more in terms of the extent to the belief, because even though they are two different denominations, there are some similarities.

    More specific to the ones that press their belief in others, and use a form of guilt as a tool to manipulation... The film Jesus Camp goes to exemplify this...

    But yes I would agree with your assessment that Christians know in their hearts that their faith and thus codes are right. I do. It is a very strong conviction indeed. There's nothing ignorant about it.
    Gah! I had a good question I was going to ask (an open one), but now I forget it... It has something to do to some extent about Original Sin (and the first quote).

    EDIT: Okay well I just remembered it, and it had nothing to do with Original Sin. Rather while I admit I am not fully learned on the history of the Bible itself, could the validity of the Bible be called into question (aside from mistranslations etc) because of the ommitance of an entire work? The Book of Thomas being an example...

    To me it shows how "humanistic" the Bible really is... I don't know...
     
    Last edited:

    twocows

    The not-so-black cat of ill omen
  • 4,307
    Posts
    15
    Years
    Regardless, you've created a ridiculous hypothetic situation in which you've presupposed that the black and white is choosing Child A or Child B. That presupposition is the imploding factor of your hypothetical, because no Christian is ever to sacrifice a life, especially a child. Assuming this was me, which you've suggested, I'd make a plea to the established authority to take my life instead.
    And yet, with today's judicial system being completely strict to the letter of the law, the authority would probably turn down your plea and reassert the question: which child dies?

    This whole situation is also rediculous because it's pressuming I'd commit treason. It assumes that I'm willing to commit treason against my country but also care about my children.
    Or that someone is willing to have you falsely convicted. That part was mostly irrelevant; the point was what choice do you make in a no-win situation, not whether the situation would arise in your particular case.

    Also, your list of logical fallacies make no sense. I know what every one of those means, and I fail to see how any of them apply.
     
    Back
    Top