To what extent is feminism relevant today?

[Esper]

The fact that you think women's issues are more of a problem than the things other groups face pretty much proves my point.

And why do you think that's what I think? Please point me to where I said anything to imply that.

Aside from that though, I've known and met a lot of people (both men and women) who identify as feminists and exactly zero of them have supported anything that wasn't about improving the status of women.

Feminism isn't the path to equality. Back in the twenties or thirties (probably up until much more recently in fairness) it made sense because women were pretty much oppressed. It's not like that any more and women's rights issues deserve no more attention than anybody else's. You can claim "we want equality for everyone" as much as you want, but that is the mindset of individuals not the mindset of the movement.

I've also met lots of people who identify as feminists who care about a range of things from healthcare to the environment to poverty to war. These problems don't exist in a vacuum and more often than many would like to think the problems are worse for women. Like I began to say in my first post where I said "lots of unequal things tend to fall harder on women's shoulders and feminists don't want that fact to be glossed over", ignoring the inequalities within other problems does a disservice to women and, moreover, does not treat the problem in the best way possible and ignores possible solutions.

Modern feminism uses things like this to explain why feminism is still necessary but then they never actually do anything about it, then they post about #manspreading or #fartrape on the internet.

Admitting there is a problem is the first step in solving a problem. Just because every problem hasn't been solved doesn't mean that criticisms are invalid. Also, people can address multiple problems at the same time and those problems don't have to be of the same intensity.

 

[Lucid]

Feminism is still needed in first world countries because sexism and misogyny are still issues in first world countries. There's no reason women should make 79 cents to the dollar compared to their male coworkers. Same for the pink tax, it's real, women for the most part spend more on personal products, clothing, undergarments, there's an extra tax on menstruation products depending where you are. Negative problems in our culture regarding the way we treat women still abound. Women are more likely to be sexually harassed, assaulted or discriminated against for their gender. You can have misogynist and sexist attitudes without despising women are wanting any harm done to them, without even realizing it, just like you can engage in racist behavior or thoughts without hating people of color. But the point is to acknowledge when you do engage in those negative behaviors and not repeat them. Internalized misogyny is a big issue amongst women too. It's deeply engrained in our culture, just like classic gender roles, stereotyping, racism, white privilege, homophobia, ablism, the whole lot. Ignoring these issues and saying they don't exist doesn't benefit anyone. I think just the initial reactions when someone brings up feminism... sarcasm, disgust, passive-aggressive, eye rolls, snarky comments, say a lot regarding this topic. You can not care about an issue, not like the people who champion it, but it doesn't give you the right to discredit issues and discrimination you haven't yourself experienced first hand. No ones cause should take priority over anyone else's, no one should have to "wait their turn". The bottom line is, we still live in a society where people are discriminated against and treated unfairly for bigoted reasons, gender being one of many. Just because we've progressed from where we were 200 years ago, and things are better then they were, and that some of the issues women face in society don't directly effect you or your daily life doesn't mean the problem's solved and we as a society can top caring.

 

[Lipstick Vogue]

Modern feminism sure does speak about a lot of issues, a lot of these are only issues in their heads, but they certainly aren't fixing anything.

Also I'll say that I don't feel that feminists should be banding together to go and fight Boko Haram, they just shouldn't use the plight of women in completely different worlds to push their own agendas.

There are absolutely issues in today's society, some of which but not all affect women, I just that feminism needs a serious shake up if it wants anybody outside of university campuses and tumblr to take it seriously. There are reasonable women within it's walls but the majority follow nutcases like like Sarkeesian or attention whores like Laci Green.

I wonder which alternate world would be more sexist, one ruled by Boko Haram or one by Anita Sarkeesian.

 

[Satanael]

I would like to add, simply, that the wage gap was debunked and the experiment that discovered that famous statement was intentionally skewed.

 

[Lipstick Vogue]

There's no reason women should make 79 cents to the dollar compared to their male coworkers.

LOL no, if this was the case then men wouldn't be able to find work because businesses would only hire women.

Same for the pink tax, it's real, women for the most part spend more on personal products, clothing, undergarments, there's an extra tax on menstruation products depending where you are.

Those few pennies on your tampons must hurt. It's easy to not spend on clothing, that's your personal choice. Good quality bras are important but again, it's not a requirement. Get some bandage and wrap yourself if you can't afford it.

Negative problems in our culture regarding the way we treat women still abound. Women are more likely to be sexually harassed, assaulted or discriminated against for their gender. You can have misogynist and sexist attitudes without despising women are wanting any harm done to them, without even realizing it, just like you can engage in racist behavior or thoughts without hating people of color. But the point is to acknowledge when you do engage in those negative behaviors and not repeat them.

Loads of women hate men too. I'll take your point about women being more likely to be physically hurt because of these people but that's not really going to go away. Some people will always hate one another, most people will not though. Not a feminism issue imo, it's a general human one.

Internalized misogyny is a big issue amongst women too. It's deeply engrained in our culture, just like classic gender roles, stereotyping, racism, white privilege, homophobia, ablism, the whole lot. Ignoring these issues and saying they don't exist doesn't benefit anyone.

HAHAHAHAHA INTERNALISED SEXISM, you actually buy into it. I just think that the testosterone induced headbutting that occurs between men shows itself as bitchyness when it comes to women. This isn't a patriarchal force, it's probably got evolutionary roots, things like not wanting other women near a potential mate.

As for gender roles, women can choose to have a career and generally do anything a man can last time I checked. A 40 year old single man will get asked why he hasn't had kids too.

I think just the initial reactions when someone brings up feminism... sarcasm, disgust, passive-aggressive, eye rolls, snarky comments, say a lot regarding this topic. You can not care about an issue, not like the people who champion it, but it doesn't give you the right to discredit issues and discrimination you haven't yourself experienced first hand.

Just like you've experienced being kidknapped by Boko Haram? You DO NOT have to experience something to comment on it. A lot of the negativity is down to those figureheads, it wouldn't get anywhere as much hate if it was being lead by a Christina Hoff Sommers type feminist.

No ones cause should take priority over anyone else's,

Tell that to feminism.

The bottom line is, we still live in a society where people are discriminated against and treated unfairly for bigoted reasons, gender being one of many. Just because we've progressed from where we were 200 years ago, and things are better then they were, and that some of the issues women face in society don't directly effect you or your daily life doesn't mean the problem's solved and we as a society can top caring.

Hey, you almost ended on a good note there but then you had to had to build that strawman. Nobody is saying that society is perfect but a lot of the issues feminists ram down our throats are absolutely non issues or even worse non issues with. Society cares about women FAR more than it does about men.

 

[Lucid]

this was the case then men wouldn't be able to find work because businesses would only hire women.

??? What? I don't understand what your saying. But if the .79 to the dollar thing is a myth, then that's great.

Those few pennies on your tampons must hurt. It's easy to not spend on clothing, that's your personal choice. Good quality bras are important but again, it's not a requirement. Get some bandage and wrap yourself if you can't afford it.

It add up after a lifetime, especially for those who live on budgets and well below the poverty line. There's no reason for the tax and feminine hygiene products, it's not right. Men's clothing tends to be cheaper, regardless of the brand or store, even if it's just a t shirt. You can not wrap your breast with bandages, you can damage your rib cage and causes skin problems. Yeah, you can not wear a bra, but women in western society are expected to wear them as breast are sexualized and they do provide a degree of cover. Just like with women who don't shave their legs, they're perceived as sloppy and unkept. I don't think I if I went to a job interview without a bra on, I'd be taken very seriously. I mean this is obvious, I shouldn't even have to defend this.

Loads of women hate men too. I'll take your point about women being more likely to be physically hurt because of these people but that's not really going to go away. Some people will always hate one another, most people will not though. Not a feminism issue imo, it's a general human one.

Sure, but a lot of people don't hate anybody but and still engage in harmful or offensive behaviors. It's still not ok. If you're behaving in a way that makes someone uncomfortable, or they find offensive or disrespectful, the right response is to apologize and not repeat the behavior. Not justify it or make excuses. People can be flawed, ignorant or just plain hateful, but to improve on those behaviors and act with empathy and respect is how we improve ourselves as people and a society. It's totally a human issue that applies to everyone.

HAHAHAHAHA INTERNALISED SEXISM, you actually buy into it. I just think that the testosterone induced headbutting that occurs between men shows itself as rattatayness when it comes to women. This isn't a patriarchal force, it's probably got evolutionary roots, things like not wanting other women near a potential mate.

As for gender roles, women can choose to have a career and generally do anything a man can last time I checked. A 40 year old single man will get asked why he hasn't had kids too.

It is. That catty behavior is not okay. It's written off as girls with be girls. Being envious, unkind and hypercritical aren't good qualities on any one, but women get away with it towards each other and it's even encouraged in plenty of instances.

And yeah, men and women can choose, but the hire rates for certain carriers will vary depending on gender and what they are. Single mothers in particular have disadvantages.

Just like you've experienced being kidknapped by Boko Haram? You DO NOT have to experience something to comment on it. A lot of the negativity is down to those figureheads, it wouldn't get anywhere as much hate if it was being lead by a Christina Hoff Sommers type feminist.

I didn't make any comments on the boka haram, or any of these or their feminist you're talking about.

Tell that to feminism.

Obviously not everyone's views of feminism are the same. Not all feminist believe in or champion the same causes or principles.

Hey, you almost ended on a good note there but then you had to had to build that strawman. Nobody is saying that society is perfect but a lot of the issues feminists ram down our throats are absolutely non issues or even worse non issues with. Society cares about women FAR more

The media does tend to give more spotlight to people with extreme and often volatile views and that's a shame. Like I said, that doesn't mean that those people speak for everyone. Misogyny and sexism are real issues and they're very fixable. Just because you don't like some things some people are saying doesn't mean you can ignore the fact that these issues exist and hurt people.

 

[Nah]

I would like to add, simply, that the wage gap was debunked and the experiment that discovered that famous statement was intentionally skewed.

Do you happen to have the link to the study or whatever about this? The wage gap thing comes up literally every time this topic happens so it may or may not be useful to have for the discussion this time

 

[Kanzler]

AFAIK the 79 female cents on the male dollar figure exists at the broadest level, without taking into account full/part-time, type of profession, etc.

Once you take into all of those factors into account, whatever's left is probably due to discrimination. I think about 5-10 cents of the wage gap is unaccountable (likely due to discrimination) but I really don't remember the figures. It also varies depending on which profession you're looking at - I think 5-10 might be an overall figure.

 

[Lipstick Vogue]

If women were earning 1/5th less for the same job/hours then nobody would hire men. There's a difference between wages and earnings, men work more hours so they get paid more. Single mothers might struggle to get some positions but so would a man in the same position, employers need to know their employees are able to dedicate themselves. I'm not saying that all single mothers are going to be missing days all of the time but there are certainly risks.

Pennies per product in tax would not add up to much. But hey, if you really can't afford it you could do what pre-industrial era women did. Cotton wool. I'm sure there are many housholds across the world where blokes pay for them too. It's not a requirement, there's no reason it shouldn't be taxed. The results of these conveniences can be recreated at a much lower price.

Women's clothing is more expensive because women want their clothing to be more desirable, in general men aren't as into fashion. Cheap clothing is available for both men and women. I shouldn't even need to mention that he fashion industry is run by women and homosexual men, how this is a feminism issue I really don't know.

The bandaged up breast comment was tongue in cheek. I've had a look around and I can't seem to find a simple answer to how much a good bra should cost. Although a lot of the expense does seem to come down to design. Lots of women are perfectly comfortable in cheap ones. Others aren't so I guess that's bad luck.

As for women shaving their legs, and I suppose lots of other beauty routines. You don't have to do it, people might judge you but it would be the same for me if I turned up to work as an unshaven mess. Women do have higher beauty standards than men but I would say that a lot of these are actually self imposed. Speak to men and you will find out that they really don't care about a lot of the things women feel insecure about. Even those men that have grown up on ''unrealistic'' depictions of women in playboy and films. Men just really like women.

People do take offence too easily, you are correct. Maybe they should grow up a bit. I'm not saying we should ignore everything but we should certainly pick our battles.

You didn't but I was speaking in general about modern pop-feminism.

I don't see a 'fix'. Education will help but whenever I see feminism trying to educate youngsters it always looks closer to brainwashing.

I didn't respond to your internalised sexism thing because I didn't really understand what you were getting at.

 

[Her]

I don't think I've ever heard the names Anita Sarkeesian or Laci Green mentioned once offline, regardless of the person's views on feminism and women in general. They seem to be buzzwords exclusively reserved for internet dwellers and not at all indicative of the views of any large group or following in the movement. Both women are 'respectively' used as an example as to why feminism is not relevant, if not outright dismissable, and yet they have little to no presence outside certain corners of the internet. So seeing them namedropped as if they are global leaders in the movement whenever feminism is a topic is a bit... frustrating.

 

[Kanzler]

I don't think I've ever heard the names Anita Sarkeesian or Laci Green mentioned once offline, regardless of the person's views on feminism and women in general. They seem to be buzzwords exclusively reserved for internet dwellers and not at all indicative of the views of any large group or following in the movement. Both women are 'respectively' used as an example as to why feminism is not relevant, if not outright dismissable, and yet they have little to no presence outside certain corners of the internet. So seeing them namedropped as if they are global leaders in the movement whenever feminism is a topic is a bit... frustrating.

Seconding this. They don't seem to be mentioned much in mainstream news so I'd say that the masses by and large aren't interested in them. I don't think many of my IRL friends would be able to recognize their names.

 

[Esper]

Pennies per product in tax would not add up to much. But hey, if you really can't afford it you could do what pre-industrial era women did. Cotton wool. I'm sure there are many housholds across the world where blokes pay for them too. It's not a requirement, there's no reason it shouldn't be taxed. The results of these conveniences can be recreated at a much lower price.

Are you suggesting that it's fair that women should have to DIY products or pay more than men?

Women's clothing is more expensive because women want their clothing to be more desirable, in general men aren't as into fashion. Cheap clothing is available for both men and women. I shouldn't even need to mention that he fashion industry is run by women and homosexual men, how this is a feminism issue I really don't know.

These sound like a bunch of stereotypes. Women want to be desirable? Not any more than anyone else from my experience. And there are lots of fashionable and fashion-loving men. Women's clothing is often really cheaply made and falls apart quickly compared to men's clothing. Go to a department store and feel the material that men and women's jeans are made of, do the same with shirts.

The bandaged up breast comment was tongue in cheek. I've had a look around and I can't seem to find a simple answer to how much a good bra should cost. Although a lot of the expense does seem to come down to design. Lots of women are perfectly comfortable in cheap ones. Others aren't so I guess that's bad luck.

This is getting off topic a bit but depending on where you live your bra options are pretty good or pretty bad. In the US you can find a Victoria's Secret most places, but they don't have much more than a few sizes and try to get everyone to fit into them. A few department stores will have a wider range but the price goes up quickly. An ill-fitting bra would be like wearing a jockstrap with metal wires built into it.

As for women shaving their legs, and I suppose lots of other beauty routines. You don't have to do it, people might judge you but it would be the same for me if I turned up to work as an unshaven mess. Women do have higher beauty standards than men but I would say that a lot of these are actually self imposed. Speak to men and you will find out that they really don't care about a lot of the things women feel insecure about. Even those men that have grown up on ''unrealistic'' depictions of women in playboy and films. Men just really like women.

Women do have higher beauty standard, but while they exist it does make it harder for women to be seen as professional. Men wouldn't have to wear makeup to a job interview, for instance. I don't think one can say whether they're self-imposed or not. It's too big an industry and social expectation and has been for so long. Regardless, women shouldn't feel they have to and while they do there's a need to support women in their decisions. Saying "you don't have to" and leaving it at that doesn't really fix the problem.

 

[Kanzler]

There's no conspiracy against women in the market, however. If women's clothing is of lower quality, then that's probably a function of women's fashion trends changing faster than mens' as well as the kind of quality the women market is willing to accept at a given price. Not exactly a matter of fairness or unfairness.

 

[Pinkie-Dawn]

Seconding this. They don't seem to be mentioned much in mainstream news so I'd say that the masses by and large aren't interested in them. I don't think many of my IRL friends would be able to recognize their names.

Both Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn came to the U.N. asking for censorship on the internet to protect women who have been "oppressed." It's something that should've been known to the mainstream public by now due to the U.N.'s involvement (they even proposed Japan to ban the use of sexualized women in anime, manga, and video games because of this).

 

[Kanzler]

Both Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn came to the U.N. asking for censorship on the internet to protect women who have been "oppressed." It's something that should've been known to the mainstream public by now due to the U.N.'s involvement (they even proposed Japan to ban the use of sexualized women in anime, manga, and video games because of this).

It's not that big of a deal to have dealings with the UN, it's not like they gave a speech at the General Assembly or anything significant like that. All they've done is participate in a working group against cyberbullying. Not exactly groundbreaking news.

 

[Her]

Both Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn came to the U.N. asking for censorship on the internet to protect women who have been "oppressed." It's something that should've been known to the mainstream public by now due to the U.N.'s involvement (they even proposed Japan to ban the use of sexualized women in anime, manga, and video games because of this).

This needs to be clarified as you have an incorrect understanding of the issue.

As far as I can tell, Japan has not had a formal 'proposal' of sorts put forward to them on banning anything - suggestions in a discussion on a wider issue, but no legally binding proposals as of yet. Secondly, what you're referring to was not 'sexualised women', but sexual violence - the most identifiable point being games where the user is engaged in rape.

http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=17028&LangID=E

It was part of a forum between the UN & Japan on various women's issues altogether.

 

[Sir Codin]

AFAIK the 79 female cents on the male dollar figure exists at the broadest level, without taking into account full/part-time, type of profession, etc.

Once you take into all of those factors into account, whatever's left is probably due to discrimination. I think about 5-10 cents of the wage gap is unaccountable (likely due to discrimination) but I really don't remember the figures. It also varies depending on which profession you're looking at - I think 5-10 might be an overall figure.

Maddox made an excellent video talking about this issue:

 

[Pinkie-Dawn]

This needs to be clarified as you have an incorrect understanding of the issue.

As far as I can tell, Japan has not had a formal 'proposal' of sorts put forward to them on banning anything - suggestions in a discussion on a wider issue, but no legally binding proposals as of yet. Secondly, what you're referring to was not 'sexualised women', but sexual violence - the most identifiable point being games where the user is engaged in rape.

http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=17028&LangID=E

It was part of a forum between the UN & Japan on various women's issues altogether.

I should've said "pressured" rather than "proposed," as that would've been more understanding. Also, the ban was refuted by a Female Japanese Representative of the Women's Institute Of Contemporary Media Culture because she doesn't think there's no point in banning fictional violence towards women. In other words, this shouldn't be a bother towards other feminists.

 

[gimmepie]

This thread is interesting. The more that I think about it the more I find it perplexing how we all want equality but we all have such very different ideas about how to achieve it and even about what constitutes it.

 

[Sir Codin]

This thread is interesting. The more that I think about it the more I find it perplexing how we all want equality but we all have such very different ideas about how to achieve it and even about what constitutes it.

That depends on the type of "equality" that people are looking for. It's important to note the differences between "equality of opportunity" vs "equality of condition."

Also, a challenge for you all if you will, for the sake of debate:

If feminism truly is about "equality" then give me some examples throughout history on how the movement has helped men.