To what extent is feminism relevant today?

[Lucid]

I wanted to add that women aren't "favored" in court when it comes to rape or abuse cases. The evidence is favored. And I speak from personal experience when I say that solid evidence isn't so easy to come by. Getting a rape kit isn't even that solid because trauma an be caused by consensual sex. Unless your rapist or abuser is a total stranger, the whole thing comes down to your word against theirs. Look at anytime a woman speaks out against a high profile man in the media. It's far easier to back guy then the gold digging shrew who's trying to ruin his reputation or his bank account. I lost every friend I had because they either didn't believe me or did, but didn't want to get involved. No one wants to have to go to court as a witness unless they're ordered to. No one wants to believe that their friend, relative, or someone they love or admire could be capable of doing something so horrible to another person. It's far easier and much more comforting to just say that the victim is lying for whatever reason, and rest easy believing that these things are far more uncommon then the media wants us to believe. Anytime I tried to reach out, to the police or anyone else, my abuser wormed their way right behind me, assuring whoever I spoke to that I was just "being emotional, exaggerating things", or that "I was just angry at him and trying to punish him". My case didn't even make it to court, because I felt too beaten down by everyone around me to pursue it. No one around me supported me, I felt humiliated, and my spirit was totally broken from it. The process of pursuing one these cases is degrading and wears on you, it's not as easy as pointing a finger. Stop acting like women have all the power in a courtroom setting, because that's straight up untrue. A crying woman with a lawyer isn't some kind of trump card and the legal system isn't set up to be sympathetic to women over men.

Look, even going through years of physical, sexual, and mental abuse myself, I'm sad to say that my own knee jerk reactions to hearing about other women's experiences, regardless of it's rape, harassment, or stalking, is that they're lying or looking for some sort of sympathy or pay off for the exact reasons above, or that they somehow "asked" for or "deserved" the experience. If I have that problem, then I know other people do as well. That's toxic, that's misogynistic, that's deeply ingrained, taught behavior that needs to stop being reinforced by society.

 

[Omicron]

Oh wow, you make feminists sound like the heroes of society. Awesome. Let's see if you can carry that through.

snip

You are correct, feminism doesn't fight for men's rights. That doesn't mean that many of the things that feminism is fighting for won't benefit men too. Challenging gender stereotypes is very important for this and addresses many of the issues egalitarians fight for as well.

Also, I counted 8 ad hominems in your post. Needing to insult/discredit the person you're debating with in order to try and make your points makes your argument so much weaker.

 

[Bounsweet]

I think it's impossible to "teach men not to rape" in the sense that people who say that usually mean it. Testosterone predisposes men to violence, impulsivity and social dominance. No matter how much social conditioning there is, the hormonal contribution to behaviour will still be there. There will continue to be people who fall towards impulse or flagrantly defy the norms of society.

So:

• Women no longer feel afraid to walk alone at night in fear of men approaching them and making them feel unsafe.
• Men no longer stalk, slander, and even murder women for rejecting their advances.

I don't think either of those conditions will ever be met.

That's irresponsible scapegoat rhetoric. It's excuses like that that perpetuate the belief that "boys will be boys" which is the exact type of belief that feminism aims to stop.

Oh wow, you make feminists sound like the heroes of society. Awesome. Let's see if you can carry that through.

Hey, I can play this game too!

EDIT: I just want to add in that I find this above paragraph incredibly patronising. Honestly, I hate to generalise, but that seems to be classic feminism, always in the right. Please, we don't think feminism is important and just because you disagree doesn't mean you're educating us here. We aren't children. Give us an argument, not a lesson.

You seem to have some kind of personal vendetta against the feminist movement given your remark, "classic feminism, always in the right," so I'll let you stew in that on your own. Introspection is very nice.

Oh, well this is just about vague enough to make zero sense.

It actually is not vague in the slightest. A woman's sex life is more readily criticized for the sole sake that she's a woman. Now, tell me you haven't heard of this before: A man is a virgin, the general reaction is "wow, how sad," if he's promiscuous, he's commended for it. A woman is a virgin, "she's a prude, she's a 'good girl' for waiting for marriage, etc" or if she is promiscuous, "wow she's a slut, she's going to get raped someday," so on and so on. Nobody's sex life should be scrutinized like this, but women's are just for the sole fact that they're women.

Men are raped. The only difference is that because feminists are getting there way, women are immediately preferred in court. That is sexism.

Modern feminism works to validate rape against men by promoting women to take responsibility for "male-dominated" actions. This ranges anywhere from admitting that they are a rapist or that they're abusive to more domestic tasks like learning how to change their own car tires, mow the lawn, other "manly" tasks. Cause **** gender roles.

You don't need feminism for that, you need a good pair of parents. Stop tooting your own horn.

True, but this doesn't deny the fact that STEM fields are very male-dominated. Women are becoming more active in them though, finally.

Women are naturally weaker than men, that's why this happens. If women were stronger than men, men would be afraid to walk alone at night. That's how it works. You don't need feminism to solve this, you need to arrest bad people.

I'm not even going to open this can of worms. This rhetoric is sooo old-school it does not belong in a discussion about feminism in 2016 lol.

Because women totally won't do this too? You know, you're sounding like the sexist one here. Stop accepting all these gender stereotypes, wow.

A 20-second Google search can yield some very interesting results regarding domestic violence against women.
https://www.unwomen.org/en/what-we-do/ending-violence-against-women/facts-and-figures
https://www.ncadv.org/learn/statistics
While the presence of female stalkers, abusers, killers, etc. is still very prevalent, the majority of the victims are still women. That does not invalidate the men victims. It's just basic statistics.
Comedians have even made punchlines how many men have stories about "crazy ex-girlfriends," and when he wondered why women never had such stories, it was because they were dead. Like... come on now. Lol.
While I'm on this topic, much, much more men are killed in war than they are in domestic situations. Another aspect of modern feminism, as aforementioned, is the shouldering of responsibility. Imo, as a feminist (wow, bet you wouldn't have guessed that), is that women should be more active in the army. considering the fact that they make up less than 20% of its force.*

*Considering I'm a U.S. citizen, this is ofc from my perspective. I can't speak on other countries.

Then why are you called feminists? Sexist much?

Because feminism is an already present movement that has been adapted to meet modern issues that women face, and by extent help men with their issues considering they are very related. Child custody is a major issue that men face, and by adapting feminism into the mainstream and enforcing the belief that no, not all women are maternal or good mothers, more adept fathers will get deserved custody of their children.

Please, stop. Egalitarianism. It's pretty cool. Feminism - no, that's about women. Stop taking a movement which has nothing to do with men's issues, and trying to turn it into a happy ideology for everyone. The name itself is incredibly sexist, and makes women out as the opressed in society. Women teach their daughters they are the victims and their sons that they need to be better than the rest of their sex. That is why feminism is disgusting. Sort your identity crisis out and then we'll talk.

Know what else is cool? Feminism. Know what's even cooler? Google. But if your reaction to the name "feminism" in itself is that it's sexist, well... I'm not even gonna approach that. You seem very confused though, "women teaching daughters they are the victims and their sons that they need to be better than the rest of their sex," is exactly why we need feminism. I'm not sure what kind of preconceived misdirected notion you have about the movement, but it would do you well to read up on it and at least understand what you're trying to refute.

Then why is it called feminism!?

Already addressed this, and your questions are sooo repetitive. Modern feminism is an adaptation of feminism that began with women's suffrage in the early 1900s. Obviously sociologically speaking, women have different problems than our mothers and grandmothers had. That doesn't negate the fact that there are still issues that need to be addressed in this day and age. It is an evolved movement.

Okay, that's great and all- but don't you have anything BAD to say about feminism? What about the dreaded tumblr feminism? Absolutely. I believe that you can't be a part of a growing social movement without critiquing it constantly.

The fact that you take Tumblr's skewed view of feminism seriously explains everything that I asked beforehand about your understanding of the feminist movement.

There are some things I can't stand about feminism, like:

Honestly, I find all of the feminists pretty bad. Even if they mean well, they're encouraging a perpetual cycle of this inequality and this unfair outlook on men. By teaching your children that 'feminism' is the right way, you're encouraging them to see men as the oppressors and women as the oppressed. It's disgusting and it needs to stop. Why does it need to be called feminism? If you care about both genders, act like it.

All of my grips with feminism are down to the core ideology (which isn't even an ideology, it's some movement that happened last century that even the people running the movement didn't turn into their ideology, because they probably understood it's a really dumb idea for an ideology which promotes gender inequality in actively fighting for females. It's in the name). Anything else is a gripe with individual people, not feminism.

So the main question is - why feminism? If you fight for both genders, why is the name of your ideology so sexist? Seems a bit hypocritical, no?

Feminism was a movement. It seeked to solve a few core issues. When those core problems were solved, feminism ended. That's what feminism should have always been. The women who founded feminism wouldn't have turned it into some makeshift ideology. It doesn't make sense that way - why would you live your whole life under that banner? Certainly a little bit sexist.

No matter how you try to slice it, feminism purports that men have always been and still are the superiors to women in society. Feminism wants to fix that, but nothing is broken, because the feminist assumption is flawed. You seem to personally have a bit of a 'no true Scotsman' issue going on, where whenever you hear about rude feminists, you will jump straight to 'those are bad feminists' or 'those aren't real feminists'. No, they're all real, they're all there.

Distance yourself from them. It's a sexist ideology however you look at it. It's literally in the name. There's a name for an ideology which favours both genders, but it isn't feminism. Feminism has never been about equality for both genders. Most who claim it is are thinly veiling a few poor excuses to make them sound like they care about helping men, but usually they are indoctrinated into still believing that men are the oppressors.

That is the definition of feminism. I don't see men's rights there. Because feminism does not fight for men's rights.

See below. It might seem like just a name change to you which doesn't mean anything, but the ideology of feminism as a whole, for most people who follow it, is very dangerous. The more ground feminism gets, the more people will see women as oppressed. That isn't right. Women teach their daughters that they need to stand up for their rights, and they teach their sons that they need to be the best of society by being better than the other men by treating women as equals. That isn't fair. Feminism is as sexist as it is ridiculous. Drop the 'no true Scotsman' act. If you want to treat people as equals, stop trying to form your own homebrew branch of feminism and join something a little less outwardly sexist.

...You ended up repeating yourself and I can only take so much ignorant rhetoric, and I said everything worth saying, so.

 

[Caaethil]

Your right, reading it again it is a little sassy and accusatory off that bat. I'll check my sass at the door before entering the RT.

Re: Sexual Agency


To be clear, women continue to be vilified for having lots of sex (and enjoying it).
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00224490309552163#aHR0cDovL3d3dy50YW5kZm9ubGluZS5jb20vZG9pL3BkZi8xMC4xMDgwLzAwMjI0NDkwMzA5NTUyMTYzQEBAMA
https://www.demographic-research.org/volumes/vol30/46/30-46.pdf (1331-1332 are especially important here)
I also found this article pretty interesting as it links slut-shaming to class warfare: https://www.asanet.org/journals/SPQ/Jun14SPQFeature.pdf

And in my humble opinion, with absolutely zero sarcasm or spite intended, that's a real shame.

I do talk about male rape later on in this post. Also, what do you mean "feminists getting their way?" Are you talking about when rapists are rightfully accused of rape? That's not "feminists getting their way," that's justice.

I'm talking about courts constantly favouring women who claim to have been raped over men who claim to have been raped. I understand that you personally might find how men are laughed at for that disgraceful, but I blame feminism for letting that happen. When I say 'feminists getting their way', I'm talking about them consistently purporting that women are victims who need to be saved from the big nasty men. That might not be your view, but it's the view that the ideology as a whole promotes.

But it shouldn't be all on the parents. It should also be on schools promoting math and sciences from an early age.

Absolutely, but I don't see why that has to be something feminists and feminists specifically are making happen.

Well, yes we do actually, if we were taught not to approach single women trying to walk home their car at 8PM after work, then maybe women would start feeling safer in the streets.

I'm confused, are you basically just saying we should be teaching men not to rape?

Well, there we go. I was enjoying this debate while it lasted, but you gave me the same sass that my initial response was apparently oozing with. Don't talk to me like I'm some unread child that you're attempting to one-up.
It's not a stereotype, it's an actual thing that happens. The shadow of Elliot Rodgers is still hanging over us.

Perhaps I was a little brash, but the point remains. Your movement, ideology, whatever you'd like me to call it can call out an entire gender as oppressive and an entire gender as oppressed (if I'm getting the whole feminism thing right), but I can't comment on the sexism I find in feminism?

The proportions don't matter. If both genders can do it, both genders should be taught not to do it. This is not a feminist issue. It is not feminism that should be teaching people not to be stalking, slanderous murderers. That doesn't make sense to me. That's not an inequality in society women face. Men don't do that to women because they're female. If a person that crazy happened to be homosexual, they'd do it to a man. Not really a gender equality issue.

Because feminism is unfortunately so heavily associate with tumblr, no one is willingly to research/discuss it past that. It's lazy.

I don't use Tumblr and I've never associated feminism with it. But I guess that's just me, I'm not all-knowing.

How is the name sexist? Do you know what sexism is? It's when you believe that one sex is superior to the other. That's... not what feminism is about. Even in your google definition of feminism it says that it's EQUALITY of the sexes, not superiority. You are contradicting yourself.

Ah, sorry, let me elaborate on that. The problem I have in the definition of feminism is that it fights for women's rights to get equality. That's what the definition says. I believe men's rights are equally important (hence the equality part of all of this), and we should fight for those too.

Women teach their daughters they are the victims
Explain.

Some of our more brainwashed, 'men are the worst' type feminists like to continue the perpetual cycle. They make sure their daughters know that men are superior to women in every way in this flawed, evil society. My English teacher used to talk about it, as an example. The thought that she would sit and tell her daughter about how women are so oppressed in society and how she needs to fight against that (presumably the wage gap or something silly like that) makes me cringe.

and their sons that they need to be better than the rest of their sex
What is wrong with teaching sons to treat their peers with excellence, when statistically, men commit the most crimes?

Nothing. But there is something wrong with teaching boys to be nice to all of those poor underprivileged girls down the street who society is always out to get with its nasty sexism. It's spreading false, exaggerated ideas about gender inequality and I imagine would just make boys generally feel pretty terrible about themselves. If a girl hits a boy, the boy is laughed at. If a boy hits a girl, the boy is hated. And for reinforcing those terrible ideas, I blame parents who teach their sons and daughters these silly ideas on how society treats genders.

It seems like the main reason that you and many others take a problem with feminism is because of the name. That icky "fem" part. Well, feminism was created for women, by women, and like any other social movement, evolved, changed and expanded. Feminism isn't just about "women" it's about femininity and dismantling the idea that femininity = bad, masculinity = good, noble, etc. Why can women engage in "masculine" behavior, but men can't engage in "feminine" behavior.
This is why it's called feminism and not womanism.

I don't feel like it's called feminism because it's about femininity. I'm 110% sure the fem bit comes from 'female'. If it was called womanism, it would disqualify young girls, no? Maybe I'm putting too much faith in my Google definition here, but it does say women's rights.

I don't think my main issue with feminism is that I think it's just about women. I think my main issue with feminism is that the name and the ideas of the masses reach the masses. And the masses within feminism believe that women are oppressed and men are oppressors. They claim to be dismantling gender roles by setting up more.

I'm not saying that's you, and I am sorry if I seem like I'm trying to attack you personally (all of my childlike interpretations on feminism's view of the 'big mean men' and such are purely targetted at the mainstream, rather sexist feminist). No, my problem with feminism is the kind of 'no true Scotsman' fallacy that comes along within it. The name, to me, is outdated and does not encourage what society actually needs.

To me, it's like saying you're "a republican except really left wing". It doesn't make sense. No matter what you call yourself, you're something else entirely, really. And this is a thread on feminism, and I don't think feminism is the right name for an ideology that fights for gender rights and equality. Feminism is the name for an ideology that fights for women's rights whether women needs those rights or not. Whether you like it or not, that's what feminism is becoming. When the Google definition specifically states that feminism is fighting for women's rights, I feel you need to stop seeing the others who specifically fight for women's rights as "not real feminists" and accept that maybe your view of who you are doesn't quite fit with what feminism is.

At least, I don't think that's what feminism is. I absolutely support your views (mostly), but I don't like feminism and I feel like you and so many others are only really feminists by name. So if you want to call yourself a feminist, that's great, but this really becomes a pointless discussion, as we're spending our time debating names rather than ideas. It's just a waste for you to post something and for me to say "I agree with that but I don't think that's a feminist idea".

You are correct, feminism doesn't fight for men's rights. That doesn't mean that many of the things that feminism is fighting for won't benefit men too. Challenging gender stereotypes is very important for this and addresses many of the issues egalitarians fight for as well.

Of course feminist ideas can benefit men. All sorts of things I don't agree with can benefit me in some kind of roundabout way. That doesn't mean I have to agree with them. If somebody is shot dead, well, that's another job opened up for another person. That doesn't mean that it's a good thing.

Also, I counted 8 ad hominems in your post. Needing to insult/discredit the person you're debating with in order to try and make your points makes your argument so much weaker.

I didn't need to do anything, it was accidental as I feel passionate about the topic. I'm a naturally brash person and sometimes I can be a bit raw around the edges. I've already been called out for it. I don't think it needs to be said twice.

-snippity snip snip-

This is another person's response to the exact same point with a ton more ad hominem (wow I'm such a hypocrite), so I don't see much point in responding to it. If there's something important Noa or somebody else wants to add from this post, go ahead. I need to eat right now.

Slightly off topic, but just so everyone knows why I'm not responding to the post.

 

[noa]

I'm talking about courts constantly favouring women who claim to have been raped over men who claim to have been raped. I understand that you personally might find how men are laughed at for that disgraceful, but I blame feminism for letting that happen. When I say 'feminists getting their way', I'm talking about them consistently purporting that women are victims who need to be saved from the big nasty men. That might not be your view, but it's the view that the ideology as a whole promotes.

Do you really think that it's feminism that is letting this happen? Personally I think that the reason men are laughed at, not taken seriously when raped is because of toxic masculinity. Like I mentioned before, men are expected by their peers to enjoy and want sex, so the concept of them rejecting sexual advances is "weird", as barbaric as it may seem.
If you talk to other feminists, we don't think women are "victims" I think they're quite strong, actually, to be continuously fighting against subtle and outright misogyny in society.

(RE:Teaching girls about stem) Absolutely, but I don't see why that has to be something feminists and feminists specifically are making happen.

Why not though? I think it would be great if feminists banded together with schools to encourage young girls to take an interest in STEM.

I'm confused, are you basically just saying we should be teaching men not to rape?

I know it's not as simple as "teach men not to rape" because men who rape are already in a certain mindset.
I'll repeat what I said in another response: Oh, no, I definitely am aware that we live in an imperfect world and rape will never, ever go away.
But that doesn't mean we can still do our best to prevent it. That includes teaching children to respect people's personal space, learn when no means no, NEVER excusing bad behavior with "boys will be boys", "she was asking for it" etc.
And of course, this also means learning to properly defend oneself.

The proportions don't matter. If both genders can do it, both genders should be taught not to do it. This is not a feminist issue. It is not feminism that should be teaching people not to be stalking, slanderous murderers. That doesn't make sense to me. That's not an inequality in society women face. Men don't do that to women because they're female. If a person that crazy happened to be homosexual, they'd do it to a man. Not really a gender equality issue.

If both genders can do it, both genders should be taught not to do it. I agree. I mentioned this earlier.
That's not an inequality in society women face. ...Yes it is. Every single woman in my life, including me, dozens of times, has been inappropriately approached by a man, whether it's "hey sweetie" or something more sexually aggressive.
Men don't do that to women because they're female. Yes, they do. They want to sexually intimidate women because it gets their rocks off/boosts their ego/god knows whatever reason.

Ah, sorry, let me elaborate on that. The problem I have in the definition of feminism is that it fights for women's rights to get equality. That's what the definition says. I believe men's rights are equally important (hence the equality part of all of this), and we should fight for those too.

Why is it a problem that women have equal rights?

Some of our more brainwashed, 'men are the worst' type feminists like to continue the perpetual cycle. They make sure their daughters know that men are superior to women in every way in this flawed, evil society. My English teacher used to talk about it, as an example. The thought that she would sit and tell her daughter about how women are so oppressed in society and how she needs to fight against that (presumably the wage gap or something silly like that) makes me cringe.

Whoa, whoa whoa?! That's pretty crazy. Maybe there's some exceptions but i know of no feminist who would say men are superior to women.
As for the other stuff. I don't see a problem with teaching our daughters that there are ugly, sexist aspects of society. It's just how the world is.

And this is a thread on feminism, and I don't think feminism is the right name for an ideology that fights for gender rights and equality.

Once again, maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like your real problem with feminism is the name. If egalitarianism is exactly the same as feminism, just under a different name, would you say that would be better?

I feel like you and so many others are only really feminists by name.

What does this mean?

 

[Bounsweet]

And in my humble opinion, with absolutely zero sarcasm or spite intended, that's a real shame.

It is a real shame, which is why many feminists address it.

I'm talking about courts constantly favouring women who claim to have been raped over men who claim to have been raped. I understand that you personally might find how men are laughed at for that disgraceful, but I blame feminism for letting that happen. When I say 'feminists getting their way', I'm talking about them consistently purporting that women are victims who need to be saved from the big nasty men. That might not be your view, but it's the view that the ideology as a whole promotes.

I personally do not know any feminists who claim that women need to be saved from "the big nasty man." It's more of a societal issue, and what is considered the norm and what is and is not accepted. There are a few extremists who may ignorantly accuse men as a whole and not the entire workings of society, just like there are men who ignorantly accuse women for many problems in the same regard.

I'm confused, are you basically just saying we should be teaching men not to rape?

Basically, yes, but also no. Men who have ingrained values and ideologies would be more difficult to change their views. Teaching young boys the importance of body autonomy, respect, and not instilling backwards views and beliefs is a very effective first step, however.

Perhaps I was a little brash, but the point remains. Your movement, ideology, whatever you'd like me to call it can call out an entire gender as oppressive and an entire gender as oppressed (if I'm getting the whole feminism thing right), but I can't comment on the sexism I find in feminism?

That is incorrect, it is not a matter of black and white, man vs woman, etc. It is much more complex and interwoven.

The proportions don't matter. If both genders can do it, both genders should be taught not to do it. This is not a feminist issue. It is not feminism that should be teaching people not to be stalking, slanderous murderers. That doesn't make sense to me. That's not an inequality in society women face. Men don't do that to women because they're female. If a person that crazy happened to be homosexual, they'd do it to a man. Not really a gender equality issue.

Being the target of stalking and domestic abuse is indeed an inequality that women face, as I already linked in my previous post. As I already stated as well, it does not negate the fact that men are targets, but women have a disproportionately higher risk of being targets. That is inequality, that is the issue. As I've already stated.

Ah, sorry, let me elaborate on that. The problem I have in the definition of feminism is that it fights for women's rights to get equality. That's what the definition says. I believe men's rights are equally important (hence the equality part of all of this), and we should fight for those too.

It would be nice if you could specify what part of men's rights you are talking about, because like I said, they are very interwoven. I've already mentioned the issue about women's favor in court regarding custody, the high ratio of men in the army, etc. I would greatly appreciate if you could educate me on some more issues that men specifically face, since I am a woman and I don't have the first-hand experience and knowledge about it.

Some of our more brainwashed, 'men are the worst' type feminists like to continue the perpetual cycle. They make sure their daughters know that men are superior to women in every way in this flawed, evil society. My English teacher used to talk about it, as an example. The thought that she would sit and tell her daughter about how women are so oppressed in society and how she needs to fight against that (presumably the wage gap or something silly like that) makes me cringe.

There is nothing wrong with addressing issues in society with children, when they are a target of it. Not to completely derail, but even Rugrats nails it when Angelica's mother is talking about her and says, "if Angelica is ever going to make it in a male-dominated power structure, she's got to eat, breathe, drink and sweat self-esteem."
Nothing wrong with a healthy dose of self-esteem and self-awareness, especially in young girls who are the susceptible targets of much malicious media, marketing and advertising, etc. The approach that "men are evil" is unnecessary, crude, and plain ignorant, but I am absolutely in favor of teaching young girls the reality of Western culture and instilling a strong sense of self-esteem.

Nothing. But there is something wrong with teaching boys to be nice to all of those poor underprivileged girls down the street who society is always out to get with its nasty sexism. It's spreading false, exaggerated ideas about gender inequality and I imagine would just make boys generally feel pretty terrible about themselves. If a girl hits a boy, the boy is laughed at. If a boy hits a girl, the boy is hated. And for reinforcing those terrible ideas, I blame parents who teach their sons and daughters these silly ideas on how society treats genders.

Sorry, what? There's something wrong with teaching boys to be nice to poor underprivileged girls? Excuse me? I don't think I'm understanding your point very well because that is just a very outlandish statement, even after reading the context with Noa's original comment.

I don't feel like it's called feminism because it's about femininity. I'm 110% sure the fem bit comes from 'female'. If it was called womanism, it would disqualify young girls, no? Maybe I'm putting too much faith in my Google definition here, but it does say women's rights.

I'd agree you're putting too much faith into the Google definition. It is a very intricate and wide-scale movement that cannot be reduced to a simple Google definition.

I don't think my main issue with feminism is that I think it's just about women. I think my main issue with feminism is that the name and the ideas of the masses reach the masses. And the masses within feminism believe that women are oppressed and men are oppressors. They claim to be dismantling gender roles by setting up more.

I do not agree with oppression. Women are not oppressed, but there is absolutely an imbalance in power and other sociological aspects that require the movement in modern times.

I'm not saying that's you, and I am sorry if I seem like I'm trying to attack you personally (all of my childlike interpretations on feminism's view of the 'big mean men' and such are purely targetted at the mainstream, rather sexist feminist). No, my problem with feminism is the kind of 'no true Scotsman' fallacy that comes along within it. The name, to me, is outdated and does not encourage what society actually needs.

Sure, the name is dated. That does not necessarily mean outdated. I disagree, it encourages exactly what society needs in relation to gender issues.

To me, it's like saying you're "a republican except really left wing". It doesn't make sense. No matter what you call yourself, you're something else entirely, really. And this is a thread on feminism, and I don't think feminism is the right name for an ideology that fights for gender rights and equality. Feminism is the name for an ideology that fights for women's rights whether women needs those rights or not. Whether you like it or not, that's what feminism is becoming. When the Google definition specifically states that feminism is fighting for women's rights, I feel you need to stop seeing the others who specifically fight for women's rights as "not real feminists" and accept that maybe your view of who you are doesn't quite fit with what feminism is.

There is a lot of cause and effect in feminism that is very beneficial to men, as I've already stated in my previous post. Women accepting responsibility and insight that they are not perfect, and they can be rapists or abusers, opens up the path to acceptance that men are victims of domestic violence. Women accepting that they are not all meant to be maternal figures and accepting that in a lot of cases, the father is the best parent for custody, is beneficial to men. Women taking up responsibility for their country and enlisting in the army, where a very sadly huge number of men are killed every year, also helps out men. Feminism is about empowering women and allowing them to step up and allow themselves to take blame - while staying empowered and confident. Feminism struggles to achieve a balance of power and sacrifice in women. It's difficult, but that's why it's necessary.

At least, I don't think that's what feminism is. I absolutely support your views (mostly), but I don't like feminism and I feel like you and so many others are only really feminists by name. So if you want to call yourself a feminist, that's great, but this really becomes a pointless discussion, as we're spending our time debating names rather than ideas. It's just a waste for you to post something and for me to say "I agree with that but I don't think that's a feminist idea".

Of course feminist ideas can benefit men. All sorts of things I don't agree with can benefit me in some kind of roundabout way. That doesn't mean I have to agree with them. If somebody is shot dead, well, that's another job opened up for another person. That doesn't mean that it's a good thing.

Then, why disagree with it when you openly acknowledge that it is beneficial to you? That seems counterproductive.

This is another person's response to the exact same point with a ton more ad hominem (wow I'm such a hypocrite), so I don't see much point in responding to it. If there's something important Noa or somebody else wants to add from this post, go ahead. I need to eat right now.

Slightly off topic, but just so everyone knows why I'm not responding to the post.

Blatantly refusing to acknowledge any of my points lol, you do you. Not really how a debate works, though.

As Noa mentioned before, hypermasculinity is a very real and very serious problem in society. It ties in with feminism. It's a very complex system that deserves to be understood.

 

[Kanzler]

That's irresponsible scapegoat rhetoric. It's excuses like that that perpetuate the belief that "boys will be boys" which is the exact type of belief that feminism aims to stop.

Are you suggesting that there is no biological role in "masculine" behaviours and that any suggestion that such biological factor exists, to whatever extent, is an excuse?

Because Noa seems well-spoken on these issues, and acknowledges the nuance I am adding to her position.

 

[noa]

Are you suggesting that there is no biological role in "masculine" behaviours and that any suggestion that such biological factor exists, to whatever extent, is an excuse?

Because Noa seems well-spoken on these issues, and acknowledges the nuance I am adding to her position.

I personally believe that using biology as an excuse is unacceptable because we as humans are blessed with higher thinking and morals. We aren't animals who completely give into our desires to consume and attack. It doesn't matter whether or not those urges are there- we're more than our biology, and I expect human beings to use their higher thinking to well, you know- not rape, kill, or hurt others.

 

[Caaethil]

Blatantly refusing to acknowledge any of my points lol, you do you. Not really how a debate works, though.

And literally going out of your way to be outwardly rude in your response is how a debate works? As soon as you posted, it stopped being a debate. But this seems better.

It is a real shame, which is why many feminists address it.

I get the idea.

I personally do not know any feminists who claim that women need to be saved from "the big nasty man." It's more of a societal issue, and what is considered the norm and what is and is not accepted. There are a few extremists who may ignorantly accuse men as a whole and not the entire workings of society, just like there are men who ignorantly accuse women for many problems in the same regard.

Unfortunately, feminism is plagued by those people. I do not see a place for feminism in society because I see inequalities on both sides and I find it rather sexist to have one ideology specifically dealing with one gender as if the other is less important.

And no, I do not believe feminism is concerned with men's issues. You might be, but that doesn't mean feminism is.

Basically, yes, but also no. Men who have ingrained values and ideologies would be more difficult to change their views. Teaching young boys the importance of body autonomy, respect, and not instilling backwards views and beliefs is a very effective first step, however.

We should do the same with girls though, right? Is it not important to teach girls to respect men as equals rather than their butlers who will spend their lives opening doors for them, pulling their chairs out, and going out to work and make a living for them?

That is incorrect, it is not a matter of black and white, man vs woman, etc. It is much more complex and interwoven.

Maybe for you. We're talking about feminism though, and many feminist groups do find themselves in that place with that delusion. Just because you're better doesn't mean feminism is better. It's still an ideology about women's rights at the end of the day.

Being the target of stalking and domestic abuse is indeed an inequality that women face, as I already linked in my previous post. As I already stated as well, it does not negate the fact that men are targets, but women have a disproportionately higher risk of being targets. That is inequality, that is the issue. As I've already stated.

Yes, women suffer a disproportionately higher risk of suffering from domestic abuse and whatnot. However, is that a gender issue caused by sexism?

Think of it this way. Most relationships consist of one man and one woman. And in most relationships, that man is stronger and more prone to becoming aggressive. That's just something that's coded in his DNA. Women don't suffer more domestic violence because men are sexist and don't like women. Thus, it is not a gender issue.

It would be nice if you could specify what part of men's rights you are talking about, because like I said, they are very interwoven. I've already mentioned the issue about women's favor in court regarding custody, the high ratio of men in the army, etc. I would greatly appreciate if you could educate me on some more issues that men specifically face, since I am a woman and I don't have the first-hand experience and knowledge about it.

• Why does breast cancer receive 5 times the amount of funding of prostate cancer? They both affect roughly the same number of people.
• Why do women often get off with lighter sentences than men for the same crime?
• Why do men tend to receive less visitation rights for their children? Why do women seem to gain child custody so often? Just because they're women?
• Why do women have to meet less physical standards than men when going into the same jobs?
• Why are men often expected to be the ones making the money?
• Why do some women use their sexuality to empower themselves or play victim of sexual harassment? It's a double standard. If they're trying to use it to get somewhere in the world, it's great. Otherwise it's objectification.
• Men can't take advantage of sexuality like that. They'd be laughed at. Only in the media does that ever work.
• Why do men feel they can never report sexual harassment or rape because it makes them 'less of men'? In fact, why do so many men care so much about being 'manly'?

There is nothing wrong with addressing issues in society with children, when they are a target of it. Not to completely derail, but even Rugrats nails it when Angelica's mother is talking about her and says, "if Angelica is ever going to make it in a male-dominated power structure, she's got to eat, breathe, drink and sweat self-esteem."
Nothing wrong with a healthy dose of self-esteem and self-awareness, especially in young girls who are the susceptible targets of much malicious media, marketing and advertising, etc. The approach that "men are evil" is unnecessary, crude, and plain ignorant, but I am absolutely in favor of teaching young girls the reality of Western culture and instilling a strong sense of self-esteem.

It sounds like you're saying 'calling it "men are evil" is a bit crude and a nasty way to put it, but yes'. You don't like my wording, but you're basically agreeing with what I'm saying in that that's what happens. But I don't think we need to instill a strong sense of self-esteem in girls specifically. Everybody needs that. Boys face gender stereotypes too and they should be taught it's okay to be afraid, okay to cry, and okay to talk to people close to you about any and all problems, no matter how 'un-manly' they might think it makes them.

Sorry, what? There's something wrong with teaching boys to be nice to poor underprivileged girls? Excuse me? I don't think I'm understanding your point very well because that is just a very outlandish statement, even after reading the context with Noa's original comment.

By 'poor underprivileged girls' I mean normal girls with a dash of feminist claims of oppression. If you didn't get that, my bad.

I'd agree you're putting too much faith into the Google definition. It is a very intricate and wide-scale movement that cannot be reduced to a simple Google definition.

I don't see why you'd want to call anything more complex than 'fighting for women's rights for gender equality' feminism.

I do not agree with oppression. Women are not oppressed, but there is absolutely an imbalance in power and other sociological aspects that require the movement in modern times.

See my bulleted list above.

Sure, the name is dated. That does not necessarily mean outdated. I disagree, it encourages exactly what society needs in relation to gender issues.

See my bulleted list above.

There is a lot of cause and effect in feminism that is very beneficial to men, as I've already stated in my previous post. Women accepting responsibility and insight that they are not perfect, and they can be rapists or abusers, opens up the path to acceptance that men are victims of domestic violence. Women accepting that they are not all meant to be maternal figures and accepting that in a lot of cases, the father is the best parent for custody, is beneficial to men. Women taking up responsibility for their country and enlisting in the army, where a very sadly huge number of men are killed every year, also helps out men. Feminism is about empowering women and allowing them to step up and allow themselves to take blame - while staying empowered and confident. Feminism struggles to achieve a balance of power and sacrifice in women. It's difficult, but that's why it's necessary.

Then, why disagree with it when you openly acknowledge that it is beneficial to you? That seems counterproductive.

The point I was trying to make was that it helps in some ways and I agree with it in many cases of gender inequality, but overarchingly I disagree with it on a core level. Like, Hitler did a lot of really awesome things for the German people, and a lot of them thought life was pretty great at the time. If I lived in Nazi Germany after the massive depression Hitler got the Germans out of, I'd probably love Hitler too. That doesn't mean Hitler was a great guy or I should have loved Hitler, even though if I was a German at the time, my life would have been better overall.

Now, I am not at all trying to say Feminism is anything like the Nazis or Hitler. Perhaps that response may be triggered by the 'feminazi' nonsense. But that's not what I mean at all, I'm just trying to make a comparison to prove that something can benefit me in some ways, but I can disagree with it overall. It has nothing to do with the fact that the Nazis were super evil and therefore feminism is just as evil or anything like that. Just making sure I get the right idea across.

You say that feminism succeeding would help me, but there are lots of different feminists with different opinions. If Anita Sarkeesian's feminism was the one that came to pass, that would kind of suck.

As Noa mentioned before, hypermasculinity is a very real and very serious problem in society. It ties in with feminism. It's a very complex system that deserves to be understood.

Not sure where this ties in with anything I said, maybe it's just a closing note you wanted to add in. Yes, hypermasculinity sucks. We should go ahead and sort that out. I don't think we need feminism specifically to sort out men's issues though, I still prefer the name egalitarianism.

Do you really think that it's feminism that is letting this happen? Personally I think that the reason men are laughed at, not taken seriously when raped is because of toxic masculinity. Like I mentioned before, men are expected by their peers to enjoy and want sex, so the concept of them rejecting sexual advances is "weird", as barbaric as it may seem.
If you talk to other feminists, we don't think women are "victims" I think they're quite strong, actually, to be continuously fighting against subtle and outright misogyny in society.

That may also be a factor. I do, however, honestly believe that feminism plays a role. Stereotypes purport that men are the oppressors and women are the oppressed. Feminism spends so much time complaining about women being raped it does not stop to fight this idea. It seems to embrace stereotypes where it suits the agenda. But then, I'm not a feminist, so do correct me.

Why not though? I think it would be great if feminists banded together with schools to encourage young girls to take an interest in STEM.

I don't know when the last time you visited a modern school was, but boys and girls are encouraged equally to take interest in STEM fields. This isn't the early 20th century, nobody is sending the girls off to cooking.

I know it's not as simple as "teach men not to rape" because men who rape are already in a certain mindset.
I'll repeat what I said in another response: Oh, no, I definitely am aware that we live in an imperfect world and rape will never, ever go away.
But that doesn't mean we can still do our best to prevent it. That includes teaching children to respect people's personal space, learn when no means no, NEVER excusing bad behavior with "boys will be boys", "she was asking for it" etc.
And of course, this also means learning to properly defend oneself.

Why don't you include any messages for girls there? Why don't you talk about female rapists?

Yes, you can do your best to prevent it, but this is not something we should just be teaching boys is wrong, because it's not a gender-based issue - rape happens to both genders.

That's not an inequality in society women face. ...Yes it is. Every single woman in my life, including me, dozens of times, has been inappropriately approached by a man, whether it's "hey sweetie" or something more sexually aggressive.

That's not the point. The point is that that behaviour is not caused by sexism.

Men don't do that to women because they're female. Yes, they do. They want to sexually intimidate women because it gets their rocks off/boosts their ego/god knows whatever reason.

Let me clarify. I mean, they don't do it because they believe they are of the inferior gender. They don't do it because they're sexist. They do it because they're straight and they're attracted to women. That's not a gender issue, it's not sexism, it's genetics and it's dealing with bad people.

Why is it a problem that women have equal rights?

There are two parts to that definition:

• Women's rights
• Equality

Can you guess which part I take issue to? The first one. Because everyone should be fighting for the rights of both genders, not just women. Giving women rights will never create equality, men need more rights too.

Whoa, whoa whoa?! That's pretty crazy. Maybe there's some exceptions but i know of no feminist who would say men are superior to women.

You misinterpreted the quote. I said "They make sure their daughters know that men are superior to women in every way in this flawed, evil society". You took the "They make sure their daughters know that men are superior to women in every way" part. Let me rewrite the quote:

"They make sure their daughters know that men are oppressive to women and are considered superior in every way in this flawed, evil society"

As for the other stuff. I don't see a problem with teaching our daughters that there are ugly, sexist aspects of society. It's just how the world is.

I'm talking about teaching daughters exclusively as if it's only their problem.

Once again, maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like your real problem with feminism is the name. If egalitarianism is exactly the same as feminism, just under a different name, would you say that would be better?

I'd say it's better. But unfortunately, you as an individual do not represent feminism. Many feminists are very different to yourself. I disagree with feminism over-archingly, that doesn't mean I have to disagree with every feminist in everything.

To say again: You and others like you are not in any way 'true' feminists. The others who may be sexist towards men are just as much feminists as you are.

What does this mean?

I disagree with feminism because it fights for women's rights as if that will attain equality. Yourself and Hikari purport that feminism fights for men's rights too, but I do not believe that is what feminism stands for or has ever stood for. I believe the majority of feminists fight exclusively for women's rights. That's why I do not support it. I do not believe your beliefs correspond with feminism how I see it and how the world sees it.

It's like if we had one branch of really nice door-to-door sales people who offer you cookies at your door and ask for permission to advertise their thing and if you say no they politely leave, leaving a basket of cookies for you for your time. And they're the best cookies ever.

I'm still gonna hate door-to-door sales people.

 

[noa]

Stereotypes purport that men are the oppressors and women are the oppressed. Feminism spends so much time complaining about women being raped it does not stop to fight this idea.

Feminists ARE fighting it... I just don't think you see it/notice it. Things like "slut walks", solidarity events... That's what they're doing to speak out against rape.

I don't know when the last time you visited a modern school was, but boys and girls are encouraged equally to take interest in STEM fields. This isn't the early 20th century, nobody is sending the girls off to cooking.

Then what do think is the reason for women being so disproportionately represented in STEM?

Why don't you include any messages for girls there? Why don't you talk about female rapists?

This honestly seems kinda like deflection to me. I've mentioned multiple times in this thread that I am passionate about fighting for male rape victims, but as a woman and as someone living in society where the VAST majority of rape victims are female, I am more concerned about them.

(Re: Catcalling, sexually aggressive behavior, etc) The point is that that behaviour is not caused by sexism.

Yes it is. Sexism isn't just "Women are so dumb, men are much superior" It's much more complex than that. Men who catcall, display sexually aggressive behavior do so because they believe they CAN, do to sexist views about women.

They do it because they're straight and they're attracted to women.

Wow, okay. I'm going to have to stop you there. I know many straight men who are attracted to women and have NEVER done anything nasty to a woman. They do NOT do it because they're attracted to women, they do it because they are sick and want to intimidate them.

Giving women rights will never create equality, men need more rights too.

Women already have less rights than men so I'm not sure how giving more rights to both men and women will help the issue...

You and others like you are not in any way 'true' feminists.

Who are you to say who and who isn't a true feminist? Who gets to decide that? I'm definitely a true feminist, just because I may not fit your definition of a feminist doesn't mean I'm not one.

Yourself and Hikari purport that feminism fights for men's rights too, but I do not believe that is what feminism stands for or has ever stood for. [/QUOTE
This is where I'm going to attempt trying to get through to you on this particular matter about men's rights, I've demonstrated many times before how feminism helps men too but I feel like you aren't listening. If you would like to me to reiterate once more, I'd be happy to.

 

[Kanzler]

I personally believe that using biology as an excuse is unacceptable because we as humans are blessed with higher thinking and morals. We aren't animals who completely give into our desires to consume and attack. It doesn't matter whether or not those urges are there- we're more than our biology, and I expect human beings to use their higher thinking to well, you know- not rape, kill, or hurt others.

I don't think I was saying what I said before as an excuse. We aren't animals who completely give into our desires to consume and attack, however, we are animals and are affected by hormones and the distribution of hormones is a gendered one.

Right and wrong can be dictated by norms and law, but the extent to which we follow those dictates - completely or less than completely - will be influenced by biology. As such we cannot expect the complete eradication of those gendered behaviours, even as we try to curtail them to levels that are much safer for society. We're more than our biology, but we still have our biology. We should acknowledge that, and that's all I'm saying.

 

[Nah]

Women already have less rights than men

They do?

 

[Kanzler]

I think women by and large have the same rights as men, it's just that they're less privileged as a group of people. But most people just say "women don't have the same rights as men" as if the "right" not to be leered at in the subway is substantially equivalent to freedom of speech.

 

[noa]

They do?

Yeah, Kanzler is right, "rights" may not be the correct word for me to use. We all may have the same amount of rights but I've illustrated in this thread (my first post especially) the ways in which women get the short end of the stick in society.

 

[Caaethil]

Feminists ARE fighting it... I just don't think you see it/notice it. Things like "slut walks", solidarity events... That's what they're doing to speak out against rape.

I'm talking about fighting the idea that men are the oppressive rapists, not fighting rape.

Then what do think is the reason for women being so disproportionately represented in STEM?

Women don't want to go into STEM jobs, maybe? The human brain is incredibly complex. Males and females do not think alike. Sometimes it just boils down to preference. Maybe women just generally don't want to go into STEM jobs. That is a perfectly reasonable and rational explanation.

This honestly seems kinda like deflection to me. I've mentioned multiple times in this thread that I am passionate about fighting for male rape victims, but as a woman and as someone living in society where the VAST majority of rape victims are female, I am more concerned about them.

You misunderstand. You live in a society where the vast majority of rape victims are female in terms of convictions, but I've already mentioned time and time again how women are immediately favoured in court.

Yes it is. Sexism isn't just "Women are so dumb, men are much superior" It's much more complex than that. Men who catcall, display sexually aggressive behavior do so because they believe they CAN, do to sexist views about women.

Why, in your view, can't women look after themselves? Catcalling is not a threat to your health. All of this can happen to men but because it is more mainstream for it to happen to females it's suddenly a sex issue.

Wow, okay. I'm going to have to stop you there. I know many straight men who are attracted to women and have NEVER done anything nasty to a woman. They do NOT do it because they're attracted to women, they do it because they are sick and want to intimidate them.

You're misinterpreting my statement. What I'm saying is, if they were homosexual they'd do it to men. It has nothing to do with sexism.

Women already have less rights than men so I'm not sure how giving more rights to both men and women will help the issue...

For argument's sake, I'll assume women have less rights than men. The blatantly obvious fact, however, is that men and women have different rights. I thought you were fighting for equality. I thought you said you were fighting men's issues too. That's not what you're saying now.

Who are you to say who and who isn't a true feminist? Who gets to decide that? I'm definitely a true feminist, just because I may not fit your definition of a feminist doesn't mean I'm not one.

Eugh, I mean the opposite. I mean you're not a true feminist in that you're not more of a feminist than any other feminist. I'm saying there are no 'fake' feminists. Don't get all defensive.

This is where I'm going to attempt trying to get through to you on this particular matter about men's rights, I've demonstrated many times before how feminism helps men too but I feel like you aren't listening. If you would like to me to reiterate once more, I'd be happy to.

I've read it. Unfortunately I'm not feeling quite enthralled by the whole "do I have to explain this fact to you one more time" ordeal. Yes, some feminist ideas can help men. Of course they can. However, I believe there are better ways and better ideologies that can bring about those exact same changes and more, for the better. I've already explained all of that, I won't do it again out of fear of repeating myself, which I do enough of already.

It's like politics. Just because that one Conservative policy sounds really good doesn't mean I won't vote Labour, or vice versa. This isn't some black and white system where you join whichever camp ticks a box for you, there are many factors to consider. I don't totally agree with feminism, I'm still allowed to agree with some ideas of select groups of feminists if I want to without having to hear a barrage of "Well why aren't you a feminist then?"

Yeah, Kanzler is right, "rights" may not be the correct word for me to use. We all may have the same amount of rights but I've illustrated in this thread (my first post especially) the ways in which women get the short end of the stick in society.

Actually, in my response to Hikari, I used the exact same number of bullet points explaining different cases in which men suffer inequality too. Hell, I could make more if I really wanted to.

 

[gimmepie]

Over and over again Caethill's foremost point has been ignored, and quite frankly I made the same point pages ago. You might be a feminist who fights for mens rights, but that doesn't mean that is what feminism is all about. You as an individual do not represent the entirety of the idealism you follow.

If you are a feminist, or consider yourself a feminist, and fight for everyone that's great. But the very definition of feminism is about improving solely the rights of women. It's not the same as egalitarianism. Stop trying to speak for a whole movement. You are not feminism. Feminism as in the overarching concept has exactly nothing to do with mens right and I'm tired of people claiming it does. You got shown egalitarianism and feminism's definitions directly next to each other. The differences are obvious.

 

[Grey Wind]

Adherence to strict definitions is pedantic and distracts from actual issues at hand. The meaning of words evolves over time. The majority of feminists already advocate for men's rights/issues that affect men too, and I've always felt that trying to create another word to describe what's basically the same goal is pointless and born out of a petty dislike of feminism.

 

[noa]

Over and over again Caethill's foremost point has been ignored, and quite frankly I made the same point pages ago. You might be a feminist who fights for mens rights, but that doesn't mean that is what feminism is all about. You as an individual do not represent the entirety of the idealism you follow.

I did address his point, many, many times. He kept asking the same questions even when I had provided many ways in which feminism dismantles ideas of femininity and masculinity to make the world a better place for everyone.
I know what the question is that you and him are asking it's "Why does feminism claim to support men's rights when it's called FEMinism"? Like Grey Wind and Hikari have said, words do not have a set in stone meaning and have evolved over time. Yes, feminism during its birth may have been for strictly women back when women were severely oppressed, but it has branched out to so much more.
The problem doesn't even seem to be any of the above mentioned things anymore, it seems to be that people are so very bothered by the word "fem" that they refuse to see past it.

 

[Lucid]

Women's issues do effect men because women make up a large part of the population and the issues brought up in this thread effect the friends/sisters/daughters/mothers in everyone's lives and when those effects are substantial, it screws up everyone's lives.

I think a big problem is that people will automatically squick away from women's issues because those issues are so often associated with feminism, and I think we've learned that people hate feminism. The word is going to come up in those conversations and it's enough to make too many people loose interest or roll their eyes because they've already decided that they hate where the topic is going or it doesn't apply to them.

Anyway, I don't think anyone who's expressed interest in feminism in this thread is interested in villainizing the male gender, or supports the one step forward for women, one step back for men mentality. It's been pointed out over and over again that men are subjected to plenty of horrible things by society as well. There's plenty of oppression to go around, countering every person's problem with another doesn't make anyone' point any stronger.

As I pointed out in my other post, women constantly get away with treating each other like dirt and that isn't addressed nearly as much as it should. We're perfectly capable of being our own worst enemies.

 

[Caaethil]

Women's issues do effect men because women make up a large part of the population and the issues brought up in this thread effect the friends/sisters/daughters/mothers in everyone's lives and when those effects are substantial, it screws up everyone's lives.

I think a big problem is that people will automatically squick away from women's issues because those issues are so often associated with feminism, and I think we've learned that people hate feminism. The word is going to come up in those conversations and it's enough to make too many people loose interest or roll their eyes because they've already decided that they hate where the topic is going or it doesn't apply to them.

Anyway, I don't think anyone who's expressed interest in feminism in this thread is interested in villainizing the male gender, or supports the one step forward for women, one step back for men mentality. It's been pointed out over and over again that men are subjected to plenty of horrible things by society as well. There's plenty of oppression to go around, countering every person's problem with another doesn't make anyone' point any stronger.

As I pointed out in my other post, women constantly get away with treating each other like dirt and that isn't addressed nearly as much as it should. We're perfectly capable of being our own worst enemies.

I feel you're just trying to tell me in a round about way I'm dismissing all of the points made because "rawr feminism is the worst". Nobody here has done that. I haven't dismissed anything simply because it's feminist. I don't think it's a necessary point to make.

Then, to add on, why do feminists need to stop women being horrible to women? Isn't that just called being rude? It's not really to do with sexism or women's rights, is it?

Women make up 50% of the population, I don't think that's large enough to specifically go after their issues and not men's. No, I don't think any of you are interested in vilify the male gender or leaving it in the dust, but I think some of you may misunderstand the weight of the issues men face and that is caused be feminism purporting that women are oppressed. Some feminists may genuinely claim that they are fighting for men's rights, but if they were to see the full scope of the issues men also face, I don't think they would call themselves feminists.

As gimmepie reiterated, no matter what you personally think, feminism does not fight for men's rights. No, the majority of feminists don't give a toss about men's rights at all. I feel I need to address the statement which keeps coming up "words can change and evolve over time". Yes, the can, and it usually takes a long time. This feels more like changing it when it suits you.

We're talking about feminism, and your feminism isn't the only feminism. Whether you like it or not all of those incredibly ignorant women out their fighting to stop the pay gap are still feminists, and I don't like them very much. Hence, I dislike feminism. You fight for men's rights? Great, that's not feminism though. That's not the definition of feminism. Google isn't just wrong. It can be wrong, but it's pretty spot on here, because that's what feminism is. It hasn't evolved, a few of you have just decided to fight for men's rights and that's awesome. That doesn't mean I should stop hating feminism, because you don't speak for all of feminism.

It's the same thing as the example I gave about door-to-door sales people. Even if you're super awesome and leaves cookies at my door and ask nicely to advertise your product, I'm still going to generally dislike door-to-door sales people. I'm not going to say "Door to door sales people must have evolved!"

And even though you all do claim to support men's rights, I am having trouble accepting that the men and the feminists here are quite on the same page as to what stage men's rights are at, which is another major issue I have with feminism which doesn't boil down to whether they fight for men's rights or not, it boils down to how feminists are often unsure what standards they're actually trying to meet. They don't take notice to men's rights and men's issues, and if they do, they choose a very specific slice of men's issues like manliness.

Maybe this turned into more of a rant than a focused response to this specific quote, I just wanted to back gimmepie up a bit here and expand on my point.

 

[Adore]

Women make up 50% of the population, I don't think that's large enough to specifically go after their issues and not men's. No, I don't think any of you are interested in vilify the male gender or leaving it in the dust, but I think some of you may misunderstand the weight of the issues men face and that is caused be feminism purporting that women are oppressed. Some feminists may genuinely claim that they are fighting for men's rights, but if they were to see the full scope of the issues men also face, I don't think they would call themselves feminists.

You're not wrong when you that men have problems. They do. But I think your frustrations are misdirected, which is understandable. Feminism is something that is often misunderstood and vilified. This isn't a game of Who Has It the Worst, but rather an advocacy movement trying to solve problems faced by a specific gender. Just because you personally don't see a place in that movement doesn't mean you're being excluded, ignored, or persecuted.

In my experience many of men's problems stem from other men. For instance I am gay man. I am treated as less-than by other men because of my sexuality. Straight men see me as "female-like" because I am attracted to men like a straight woman would be. To them, this is a bad thing. Support from feminists would be helpful in solving this problem, because they argue being female and feminine is not a bad thing. There's more to it than that, but that's just an example and one angle to a multifaceted problem.

As gimmepie reiterated, no matter what you personally think, feminism does not fight for men's rights. No, the majority of feminists don't give a toss about men's rights at all. I feel I need to address the statement which keeps coming up "words can change and evolve over time". Yes, the can, and it usually takes a long time. This feels more like changing it when it suits you.

The feminist movement has been around for hundreds of years. Is that not long enough for a meaning to change over time? Additionally, it's only going to change faster as the Internet makes the transmission of ideas virtually instantaneous. There is no conference where feminists sit down every year and decide on a platform. It is a constantly evolving field of discussion and study.

We're talking about feminism, and your feminism isn't the only feminism. Whether you like it or not all of those incredibly ignorant women out their fighting to stop the pay gap are still feminists, and I don't like them very much. Hence, I dislike feminism.

There are indeed many branches of feminism (white feminism vs. intersectional feminism, for instance). I will concede that. However, it would be very foolish to dislike an entire group of people just because you disagree with a fraction of them.

You fight for men's rights? Great, that's not feminism though. That's not the definition of feminism. Google isn't just wrong. It can be wrong, but it's pretty spot on here, because that's what feminism is. It hasn't evolved, a few of you have just decided to fight for men's rights and that's awesome. That doesn't mean I should stop hating feminism, because you don't speak for all of feminism.

It isn't wrong, it's simplified. You can't rely on a Google definition when there are entire libraries worth of information on this topic that discuss all of the nuances of it. That's lazy. Do your research and make a truly educated decision.

Also, isn't the decision to fight for men's rights as well an evolution? Why wouldn't that be a branch of feminism that you would support?

And even though you all do claim to support men's rights, I am having trouble accepting that the men and the feminists here are quite on the same page as to what stage men's rights are at, which is another major issue I have with feminism which doesn't boil down to whether they fight for men's rights or not, it boils down to how feminists are often unsure what standards they're actually trying to meet. They don't take notice to men's rights and men's issues, and if they do, they choose a very specific slice of men's issues like manliness.

When you get thousands of people in discussion on a particular topic, they're only going to agree broadly at best. That's just human nature. Even organized political parties have individual variations in beliefs. But, again, writing off an entire group because you disagree with a fraction of it is foolish. Especially when, quite honestly, the vast majority of that group means you no harm.