Steven

OMG THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR REMINDING ME! I've been meaning to see it for a while now! It's amazing, but I don't quite think it's as upbeat as Friday, "lol." No offense, but she pwns Lady Gaga. :P :cer_laugh:

Thanks! I don't like how you set it up so that each one of your points responded to mine and tried to explain them away, but I guess it'll have to do. We'll see how it turns out tomorrow and hopefully never talk about it again. I hate arguing and want to go back to joking, making Rebecca Black references, catching shinies, and being friends. ;)

Can I see the PM you sent people? I never finalized the list of reasons against, since you kept changing it. :/ I want to see what you sent people, if you don't mind.

Yeah, I wouldn't worry about getting votes from members with only one or two posts. That's fine.

Well, you can cheat on emulators, right? Like, you can put Pokemon in places they don't belong, like putting Mewtwo on Route 103. I guess x2 would be an emulator code, too.

Alright. They didn't in the old club, but I guess you're changing the rules. I don't remember exactly why they didn't count, but I think it had to do with the breeding chances. The egg you get at the beginning of the game is 1/64, I think.

Really? That's awesome! I never knew that.

Since you're now changing the PokeDex rules, do G/S/C shinies now count? I've said that they don't multiple times, but maybe that's the same thing as the emulator ones. :/

No, I don't think they can. :(

4 directly goes against what you yourself posted: "Only Pokemon in handheld games count." You put that at the top of the Pokedex and I just copy/pasted it. (On a different note, I think XD and Colosseum shinies should count.)

That's understandable. I respect the privacy of voting.

*vote for ROMs

You're right, this is repetitious. I keep saying that I refuse to break the law (since it's illegal where I live) and I refuse to support other people who break the law. You're shown that you're okay with supporting other people breaking the law, and that's where the difference lies. Neither of us are going to change based on our two different ethical standards. I don't know why you're arguing with me at all since the club is voting - you're not going to convince me to support illegal actions.

If the club does vote to accept ROMs into the Dex, I would suggest:

1) only for people who live in a country where they're legal
2) only for people who only have a functioning copy of the original game
3) only at normal speed
4) only playing the actual game, no ShinyGold or putting Mewtwo on Route 103

These are just suggestions for if the club does vote against ROMs.

So you're not going to send me the PMs mentioning me?

Apparently you've already decided on the issue, so you're going to need to find yourself a new Dex updater. It's against my morality to give my consent to things done illegally.

You keep saying that I'm taking what you say out of context, but I'm not doing that at all. I'm showing you how foolish your logic is by applying it to other situations, where it clearly doesn't hold up.

Sure, this isn't a country, but all of its members live in countries and have to abide by their respective laws. It's not hundreds of laws to keep up with - if ROMs are legal in a given country, okay. If not, it's not okay. It's really not that complicated.

The whole concept of not bothering to make a rule because it's so easy to lie goes back to what we were discussing a few days ago. People can lie about hacked shinies through AR, yet we ban that. I don't expect members of the club to lie - maybe you have a lower perception of them than I do.

The murder comparison is necessary because you're not taking this seriously at all. You think ROMs are some kind of joke, but real people lose their jobs because Nintendo is losing money over them. It might not be important to you, but for people who work in thegame industry, their lives depend on income from Nintendo, which some ROM users are taking away from by not buying the actual games. You don't realize that you're committing a crime and could be arrested. You obviously take murder seriously, but not piracy. They're both crimes.

Out of curiousity, could I see the PMs that mention me? I understand if you say no.

You're the owner and have the final say, and it's really not up to me. If you want to support emulators, it's your club. I just don't want to see a club that I'm in supporting people committing crimes.

So because it's not a club dedicated to following the law, that means you're not going to respect the law? If you allow it for everybody, you're giving Americans your permission to break the law.

I don't understand where you got the idea that if something is okay in one place, it should be allowed everywhere or banned everywhere. Using your logic, if murder is illegal in America but legal in, say, Britain, you would say that it's okay for club members to murder because "the legality doesn't matter as it's not consistant throughout the entire world." Even though it's illegal in America, you're going to let Americans do it because it's legal somewhere else?

You didn't address the illegality at all. You're focusing on the smaller points and completely avoiding the important one. :/

6. You quoted it in your own post. I would expect you to read what you have quoted, especially if you include it in your own post. You actually called me out for not reading a post carefully enough a couple of days ago.
8. We ban AR codes, so why not ban emulator codes? I don't understand what you're debating here.
9. It does, because that's what you said in the PM to which I was replying.


You just completely contradicted yourself by first saying it's only okay if they already own it, but then you said it doesn't matter. Nintendo said that they're illegal whether you have it or not, but you've already shown that you don't respect what they say. What do you believe? You posted two exactly opposite things. :/
10. I never said that, and you're getting away from the point. I'm saying that MetalMario is a member I respect a lot, and I wouldn't want to lose him from the club.

11. That's really faulty logic there. I don't mean to attack you, but that doesn't make any sense at all. If there was a way to speed up a DS, would you allow it, since it's like playing 2 DSes? Would you allow x4 with AR because that's like playing on 4 legit DSes?

12. Thanks for the explanation - I completely agree with that.

13. I'm a member of 4 shiny clubs/sites, and none of them ban emulators, except one does for contests to make them fair. Could you name one shiny club or forum that does?

I don't know why we're debating this - I thought we were both just putting lists in a PM and letting the members vote. You're not changing your mind because you're a ROM hacker and that's how you play the game, and I'm not going to change my mind because it's illegal, and no number of points about past members or that you can hack DSes is going to make it legal. Piracy is theft, and since this isn't "a Legal System FanClub," as you said, why don't we just let people steal the actual cartridges from game stores? I'm sorry to be so blunt, but you don't seem to understand the magnitude of breaking the law. It's like saying that your club supports robbing banks - do you really want that? Piracy is a crime, whether or not you nuance it with "oh, well it's legal in some other places."

Are you really okay with doing something illegal? Is that what you want the Shiny Hunter's Club to be about?

6. You made a post 3 hours after mine. :/ Actually, you directly quoted that post, including the part where I banned emulators, "lol." So technically, you have in one of your posts a ban on emulators. :P
8. How is it out of context?
9. This is one of the things I was talking about with being careful with the rules. If you do allow emulators, you need to make sure the person has the original game. If they don't, it won't count.
10. That's true, but you're going by post count, not intelligence or post quality. ;)

Higher speeds is something that can't be done on the actual games. Playing on 2 DSes would be like playing 2 emulators at once - if you're going to allow emulators, allow playing on 2-5 emulators, but not playing any of them at higher speeds. At the very least, you have to be doing the same as you could do on an actual game.

I agree with letting people post - I'd probably let people post anything, but not count them for the Dex. But that's up to the co-owners now, just the Dex is up to me.

I'm not entirely sure what a save state is, but I'll go with you on that one.

Regarding 3, do you know of any forums that ban them? I don't, unless you count SH's SHTC, which is a contest that needs all the ground to be fair and doesn't even allow MM or chaining so that everyone is at 1/8192. The only other 2 shiny forums I know of both allow emulators.

4. True, they don't. But if a company releases a statement saying not to do something regarding their products, it does count for something.
5. There were! It's not mentioned in the beginning, but MetalMario, Lady Demoonica Darkmoon, Yami_Zidane, and ryan explicitly banned ROMs. I don't have the exact post, but if you really want me too, I'll go and find it for you.
6. That's true now, but I was a co-owner at the time, and I was continuing a rule from the previous. It's not unreasonable to think that all rules will carry over unless you specifically say otherwise. I made that post in response to a member's question, and I thought it was an official rule like in the last club. You saw my post and didn't say anything about it, so I (and probably others) took that to mean consent.
8. That is true, but we ban that, don't we? AR shinies don't count, and hacked or edited emulators shouldn't either. (The debate is over normal, unhacked emulators - it's safe to say that everyone agrees that hacking shinies or gaining an unfair advantage, like x2, is wrong, right?)
9. So if you don't have money, it's okay to illegally pirate something? I don't have enough money to afford 10 Lexuses, 3 Ferraris, a limo, and 8 Hummers - does that mean I can steal them? If you don't have enough money to afford FireRed, does that mean you can steal it? It's pretty much the same situation.
10. Maybe you don't care, but I do. There are several members who make this club what it is and it really wouldn't be as fun without them. This isn't really a reason against emulators, it's just something about the club.

Also, you need to keep in mind that by supporting emulators, you need to be ready to put rules in place that are needed. If emulators are accepted, you'll need to make rules banning x2, banning changing percentages, banning changing what Pokemon appear (maybe not Altering Cave, but like if someone put Lugia on Route 1 or something), and you'll need to make everyone tell you what country they live in so that you'll know Americans can't use emulators but people in other countries can, for example.

Please don't take this as an argument or being rude - I hope I was polite and civil, I'm just expressing my opinion (backed up with facts). You said I was rude last time we were talking about this, and I don't want it to sound that way again. Let me know if I'm saying something offensive or something, I'm not trying to cause any problems. ;)

Thanks for the opportunity. I'm guessing you're going to PM everyone in the club with a list of reasons for and against? Cool, that works for me.

4. Nintendo released an official statement saying that all ROMs are illegal everywhere, even if you have the game.
5. They weren't counted in the old club.
6. Using them takes profits from Nintendo and, either directly or indirectly, decreases the chances for future Pokemon games (or at least the budget for them). This also takes away jobs from real people (over 10,000 people are unemployed because of ROMs) and hurts economies with an estimated $15 billion lost annually.
7. I told someone in March they weren't allowed, so anyone who saw that post might have thought they were banned in this version of the club.
8. They're really easy to hack.
9. Some of us buy another game when one breaks, and it's not fair that some people lose money buying another game while others illegally get them over the Internet.
10. MetalMario will leave if they're not banned (if he hasn't already), and he's done more for the club than anyone else and is one of the most intelligent and friendly members of the club. Losing him would really hurt the club.

Oh my God. That is TERRIBLE. I don't even.... just oh no....