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To what extent is feminism relevant today?

Her

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    Pretty sure I've been happy to discuss the issue at hand and have done so. I'm not discussing semantics to avoid that, I'm discussing semantics because I think it's a part of that.

    Perhaps, but I think you know that we have both certainly been around the block enough to know that most people with a negative or otherwise unsupportive view of contemporary (or rather, Western) feminism like to focus on semantics as part of derailing and avoiding more expansive discussions on the subject. I think there comes a point, particularly on PC, where you have to accept that you can't dig any further into the trenches on one detail.
     
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  • Perhaps, but I think you know that we have both certainly been around the block enough to know that most people with a negative or otherwise unsupportive view of contemporary (or rather, Western) feminism like to focus on semantics as part of derailing and avoiding more expansive discussions on the subject. I think there comes a point, particularly on PC, where you have to accept that you can't dig any further into the trenches on one detail.

    I won't deny that a lot of people argue against feminism because of their own misconceptions or focus on semantics to cover for a lack of education of their own. Just don't lump me in with them xD
     
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    Okay let me educate people on feminism really quickly.

    A woman who has a boyfriend giving her sex and pretty much prides her self on that usually are the ones to go into feminism. These women are very doable and very into it and all. However the thing is that without there boyfriend/husband/family they could never really have anytime for feminism.

    These women usually consist of better-off people from suburbs and small towns AKA rich kids. It is similar to roller-derby. Successful woman have big gap in her schedule and what does she uses it for.....rollerderby/feminsim. These women are very educated.

    On the other end of feminism are victims of it. The people who have barely and education and sits down and watches television. The women who are coward about everything involving the opposite sex. This is where feminism gets it's bad name from. When a person attempting to get into feminism is limited and usually these are the ones who makes a business of it. However they are not the upper ranking feminist.

    The evil-side of feminism is called womanism. They are man-hating women and many are Lesbians. There purpose is also towards segregation and negativity against the sexes. There are against the non-European and it has been shown the entire movement started against black men. A womanist is not a feminist as a feminist are for all men and sexually favors them a lot. If you see any negativity against men from feminist they most likely are in the ranks with Womanist ( who calls themselves feminists ).

    Solution to feminism bad rap. Get a man a job and marry early and have a family that reinforces the marriage, like a loan-shark AKA shotgun wedding.

    The problem is the victims of feminism is that normal woman when her marriage does not work out.
     

    Lucid

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    Okay let me educate people on feminism really quickly.

    A woman who has a boyfriend giving her sex and pretty much prides her self on that usually are the ones to go into feminism. These women are very doable and very into it and all. However the thing is that without there boyfriend/husband/family they could never really have anytime for feminism.

    These women usually consist of better-off people from suburbs and small towns AKA rich kids. It is similar to roller-derby. Successful woman have big gap in her schedule and what does she uses it for.....rollerderby/feminsim. These women are very good educated.

    On the other end of feminism are victims of it. The people who have barely and education and sits down and watches television. The women who are coward about everything involving the opposite sex. This is where feminism gets it's bad name from. When a person attempting to get into feminism is limited and usually these are the ones who makes a business of it. However they are not the upper ranking feminist.

    The evil-side of feminism is called womanism. They are man-hating women and many are Lesbians. There purpose is also towards segregation and negativity against the sexes. There are against the non-European and it has been shown the entire movement started against black men. A womanist is not a feminist as a feminist are for all men and sexually favors them a lot. If you see any negativity against men from feminist they most likely are in the ranks with Womanist ( who calls themselves feminists ).

    Solution to feminism bad rap. Get a man a job and marry early and have a family that reinforces the marriage, like a loan-shark AKA shotgun wedding.

    The problem is the victims of feminism is that normal woman when her marriage does not work out.

    Your posts today have been a real eye opener. I'm gonna go get right to pleasing my man and making sure my eggs don't fall out next time I'm in heat.
     
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  • I'm not pro-feminism in the slightest. However, this post says to me that you have been mislead rather severely. Feminism exists solely to fight against the silly gender roles most of your perspective is based in and has little to do with how educated they are, what profession (if any) they are in and if they have a happy marriage.

    I don't like feminism at all, but if you're going to argue against it you should try to at least learn about what it's actually about. The same as if you're going to argue for it you should.
     
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  • snip snip
    There is actually something here, which is that early feminist movements had (and some today still do) a tendency to reflect the wishes and aspirations of educated white women over others. That's a criticism I've seen leveled against feminists because of who some of the early feminists were, and of course it's right to call out bigotry and discrimination where it exists (or existed). But a modern day feminist isn't bound to the goals and ideas that early feminists had, though some today might be. Intersectional feminism (which seeks to address all the 'isms' like racism as parts of a larger problem instead of fighting each one separately) is far and away a different kind of movement than the one from the 19th century.
     

    pastelspectre

    Memento Mori★
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  • I feel like feminism is very relevant today. I think for me, personally, feminism is equal rights for female and men. I think that we need equal rights for both/all genders. We still have a long way to go though, in my view at least.
     

    Caaethil

    #1 Greninja Fan
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  • Feminism? Yes.

    The west's current butchered version of feminism? Please no.

    Feminism was a movement which achieved its goals and died out. Now women are trying to turn it into an ideology. We have an ideology for that folks, it's called egalitarianism, which fights for equality for all people. Feminism is about women's rights, which is grossly unfair in a society where inequality exists on both sides to some degree.

    Feminism as a movement works - women deserved the vote. They got it and they were happy. If you see another major problem (not the wage gap please), go ahead and start a feminist movement.Just please, no, no more feminist ideologies here. It's killing me.

    Unless you're in a third world country where women are actually oppressed.
     
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    feminism is nothing but a college major and these folks are just holding it up as much possible so they could continue to have there little job on the side when they are not serving there spouses. Otherwise you have a bunch of people ( both men and women ) abusing term feminism for there own glory.

    Also the study is called "Woman's History" alongside Men History, sociology, and of course psychology ( the other religion ). Anything else is just political science or your run of the mill philosophy.

    Without the attached job these people are nothing but beggars retreating. Take away the flow of sex and money and what are you left with? A homeless beggar looking for love in all the wrong places.

    The worst part is that these are some of the most melting pot of people and yet many of them are still worshipping supremacy by the end of the day.
     

    Karma Police

    Arrest this man
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    feminism is nothing but a college major and these folks are just holding it up as much possible so they could continue to have there little job on the side when they are not serving there spouses. Otherwise you have a bunch of people ( both men and women ) abusing term feminism for there own glory.

    Also the study is called "Woman's History" alongside Men History, sociology, and of course psychology ( the other religion ). Anything else is just political science or your run of the mill philosophy.

    Without the attached job these people are nothing but beggars retreating. Take away the flow of sex and money and what are you left with? A homeless beggar looking for love in all the wrong places.

    The worst part is that these are some of the most melting pot of people and yet many of them are still worshipping supremacy by the end of the day.

    You are the reason we still need feminism.

    Also, psychology, the other religion? What? Psychology is an applied science.
     

    Bounsweet

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    Reading nearly all of these posts in this thread has only just reinforced my belief that feminism is still very relevant and needed in modern times.
     
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    But do you understand that feminism is not womanism but many womanist call themselves feminist?

    Do you understand that womanist are woman worshipping women who promote the degrading of society?

    Do you understand that feminism is not helping women get jobs or promoting the beauty of women who are not beautiful.

    Do you understand that this is killing peoples lives and wasting your brain power that otherwise could be utilized? For example a man science cried, after Social Media asked about his James-Bond shirt and bullied him for the shirt he is wearing. The shirt was tasteful and yet nobody could pay attention to the actual work of science that he was committing himself to. I believe it was something about light speed travel.

    Point is that these feminist are monsters and they will stop at nothing until everything is bland like a communist regime, and the only men who reproduce or is happy are the ones with money. In the end they will still be sad and still be unhappy.

    It is a powerless person gripping on to power.
     
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  • ^

    Womanist theory, developed by Alice Walker, is a body of intersubjective research (study of multiple subjects, their similarities and differences) that addresses the inability of women (and men) to define gender identity on their own terms. This theory has been applied to other domains of identity.

    The goal of womanism is to allow local communities of individuals to define themselves and identities rather than having a monolithic society define women paternalistically. The goal is to "degrade" hegemony in societal and political spheres in order to eradicate superiority or inferiority based on "grouping" of people.

    Black Womanists want to escape the "everyday black woman's" experience in the US and rather want to create their own experience and identity -- basically they want to exist freely from white-male dominance.

    In order for this individuality to be achieved, smaller communities need to have some autonomy and the power to define themselves. Womanist theory allows for women to be self-defining of what womanhood is to themselves; so yes, women DO want power, but not the power to control others' bodies as does patriarchy, racism, and the culmination of the two.

    Womanists want women to be able to control their own bodies and minds; otherwise, women, are being violated -- period. Womanists also want to liberate men from the pressures of masculinity (which is often a source of violence against women) especially those who belong to out-groups.

    Womanist theory can be applied to LGBTQ people and other groups who the right to live their lives freely, self-define, and be free from judgement, structural disadvantages, and belief systems that seek to attack our ability to create meaning as individual identity as well as physical safety. Womanism is so relevant especially since racism, homophobia, transphobia, and xenophobia are rooted in white-male (heteronormative) virtue and that has not gone away.
     

    noa

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  • Hey, everyone! Your friendly neighborhood feminist Noa reporting in.
    Well, good news everyone! For everyone who hates feminism, think its no longer necessary, or simply just aren't fond of it, I have some good news for you.
    One day, the world will no longer need feminism! That's right, if we work hard, then we will no longer need feminism. You can help, but to achieve this we have to achieve the following goals:

    • Women are no longer vilified for their sexual agency.
    • Rapists are held accountable for their actions and people don't grasp at straws attempting to find any reason a woman deserved to be sexually violated
    • More women begin to enter the STEM field and we more highly encourage young girls to take an interest in math and science at a YOUNG age.
    • Women no longer feel afraid to walk alone at night in fear of men approaching them and making them feel unsafe.
    • Men no longer stalk, slander, and even murder women for rejecting their advances.
    • We teach men from a young age that rejection is a normal part of life and they should learn to channel their energy into something else instead of bitterness.
    • We dismantle beauty standards for women (and yes, men too!)
    • We can mention without feminism without something saying the word "tumblr"

    But Noa, wait- what about the men? Don't worry, I haven't forgotten about them. Actually, I am passionate about men's issues too. Feminism is actually working as we speak to make the world a better place for MEN as well. So, moving on, to reach a world where feminism is not necessary we must:

    • Encourage boys from a young age to express emotions rather than bottle them in because it's the "manly" thing to do.
    • Stop acting like your son is being possessed by Satan when he actually enjoys playing with a ""girl"" toy.
    • Stop down playing woman on male rape with comments like "I bet he actually enjoyed it" or "If he refused it, he's gay"
    • Stop making a joke out of male on male rape (yup, that includes everyone's beloved "don't drop the soap" jokes)

    Okay, that's great and all- but don't you have anything BAD to say about feminism? What about the dreaded tumblr feminism? Absolutely. I believe that you can't be a part of a growing social movement without critiquing it constantly.
    There are some things I can't stand about feminism, like:

    TERFS: Trans-exclusionary Radical Feminists. They are the scourge of modern feminism who hate transgender women. They are nauseatingly obsessed with gynocentric imagery and are the least progressive of them all. I and many others are constantly fighting against TERF ideology.

    Feminists who think harassment will make people listen to them. I always try my best to remain civil even with the most hateful anti-feminists, even if I am highly emotional, just because I like to be the bigger person. I do not condone harassment, doxxing, or violence of any kind. I am sorry if the actions of other feminists have led some to think this way. It is important to note, however, because of misogyny many people would take even a civil post like mine to be "screeching feminist behavior.

    So yes, feminism is absolutely relevant today. If anyone has any questions, feel free to ask, I'm always willing to discuss.
     

    Her

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    There are some things I can't stand about feminism, like:

    TERFS: Trans-exclusionary Radical Feminists. They are the scourge of modern feminism who hate transgender women. They are nauseatingly obsessed with gynocentric imagery and are the least progressive of them all. I and many others are constantly fighting against TERF ideology.

    I think it is interesting that self-identified TERFS (in online mediums, as TERF as a label is almost exclusively online and I can't think of any noteworthy 'real world' feminists who openly hate trans women aside from Germaine Greer and Camille Paglia) now go by the term of 'gender critical'. They do so because while they still believe the exact same things, the label of TERF has too many negative connotations for them to effectively do whatever it is they do. So now they congregate under the freshly painted banner of 'gender critical' because it doesn't yet have the same instantaneous reactions that TERF does. Such silly people.
     
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    Caaethil

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  • Hey, everyone! Your friendly neighborhood feminist Noa reporting in.
    Well, good news everyone! For everyone who hates feminism, think its no longer necessary, or simply just aren't fond of it, I have some good news for you.
    One day, the world will no longer need feminism! That's right, if we work hard, then we will no longer need feminism. You can help, but to achieve this we have to achieve the following goals:

    Oh wow, you make feminists sound like the heroes of society. Awesome. Let's see if you can carry that through.

    EDIT: I just want to add in that I find this above paragraph incredibly patronising. Honestly, I hate to generalise, but that seems to be classic feminism, always in the right. Please, we don't think feminism is important and just because you disagree doesn't mean you're educating us here. We aren't children. Give us an argument, not a lesson.

    Women are no longer vilified for their sexual agency.

    Oh, well this is just about vague enough to make zero sense.

    Rapists are held accountable for their actions and people don't grasp at straws attempting to find any reason a woman deserved to be sexually violated

    Men are raped. The only difference is that because feminists are getting there way, women are immediately preferred in court. That is sexism.

    More women begin to enter the STEM field and we more highly encourage young girls to take an interest in math and science at a YOUNG age.

    You don't need feminism for that, you need a good pair of parents. Stop tooting your own horn.

    Women no longer feel afraid to walk alone at night in fear of men approaching them and making them feel unsafe.

    Women are naturally weaker than men, that's why this happens. If women were stronger than men, men would be afraid to walk alone at night. That's how it works. You don't need feminism to solve this, you need to arrest bad people.

    Men no longer stalk, slander, and even murder women for rejecting their advances.

    Because women totally won't do this too? You know, you're sounding like the sexist one here. Stop accepting all these gender stereotypes, wow.

    We teach men from a young age that rejection is a normal part of life and they should learn to channel their energy into something else instead of bitterness.

    Then why are you called feminists? Sexist much?

    We dismantle beauty standards for women (and yes, men too!)

    Then why are you called feminists? Sexist much?

    We can mention without feminism without something saying the word "tumblr"

    What?

    But Noa, wait- what about the men? Don't worry, I haven't forgotten about them. Actually, I am passionate about men's issues too. Feminism is actually working as we speak to make the world a better place for MEN as well. So, moving on, to reach a world where feminism is not necessary we must:

    Please, stop. Egalitarianism. It's pretty cool. Feminism - no, that's about women. Stop taking a movement which has nothing to do with men's issues, and trying to turn it into a happy ideology for everyone. The name itself is incredibly sexist, and makes women out as the opressed in society. Women teach their daughters they are the victims and their sons that they need to be better than the rest of their sex. That is why feminism is disgusting. Sort your identity crisis out and then we'll talk.

    • Encourage boys from a young age to express emotions rather than bottle them in because it's the "manly" thing to do.
    • Stop acting like your son is being possessed by Satan when he actually enjoys playing with a ""girl"" toy.
    • Stop down playing woman on male rape with comments like "I bet he actually enjoyed it" or "If he refused it, he's gay"
    • Stop making a joke out of male on male rape (yup, that includes everyone's beloved "don't drop the soap" jokes)

    Then why is it called feminism!?

    Okay, that's great and all- but don't you have anything BAD to say about feminism? What about the dreaded tumblr feminism? Absolutely. I believe that you can't be a part of a growing social movement without critiquing it constantly.
    There are some things I can't stand about feminism, like:

    TERFS: Trans-exclusionary Radical Feminists. They are the scourge of modern feminism who hate transgender women. They are nauseatingly obsessed with gynocentric imagery and are the least progressive of them all. I and many others are constantly fighting against TERF ideology.

    Honestly, I find all of the feminists pretty bad. Even if they mean well, they're encouraging a perpetual cycle of this inequality and this unfair outlook on men. By teaching your children that 'feminism' is the right way, you're encouraging them to see men as the oppressors and women as the oppressed. It's disgusting and it needs to stop. Why does it need to be called feminism? If you care about both genders, act like it.

    Feminists who think harassment will make people listen to them. I always try my best to remain civil even with the most hateful anti-feminists, even if I am highly emotional, just because I like to be the bigger person. I do not condone harassment, doxxing, or violence of any kind. I am sorry if the actions of other feminists have led some to think this way. It is important to note, however, because of misogyny many people would take even a civil post like mine to be "screeching feminist behavior.

    All of my grips with feminism are down to the core ideology (which isn't even an ideology, it's some movement that happened last century that even the people running the movement didn't turn into their ideology, because they probably understood it's a really dumb idea for an ideology which promotes gender inequality in actively fighting for females. It's in the name). Anything else is a gripe with individual people, not feminism.

    So yes, feminism is absolutely relevant today. If anyone has any questions, feel free to ask, I'm always willing to discuss.

    So the main question is - why feminism? If you fight for both genders, why is the name of your ideology so sexist? Seems a bit hypocritical, no?

    Feminism was a movement. It seeked to solve a few core issues. When those core problems were solved, feminism ended. That's what feminism should have always been. The women who founded feminism wouldn't have turned it into some makeshift ideology. It doesn't make sense that way - why would you live your whole life under that banner? Certainly a little bit sexist.

    No matter how you try to slice it, feminism purports that men have always been and still are the superiors to women in society. Feminism wants to fix that, but nothing is broken, because the feminist assumption is flawed. You seem to personally have a bit of a 'no true Scotsman' issue going on, where whenever you hear about rude feminists, you will jump straight to 'those are bad feminists' or 'those aren't real feminists'. No, they're all real, they're all there.

    Distance yourself from them. It's a sexist ideology however you look at it. It's literally in the name. There's a name for an ideology which favours both genders, but it isn't feminism. Feminism has never been about equality for both genders. Most who claim it is are thinly veiling a few poor excuses to make them sound like they care about helping men, but usually they are indoctrinated into still believing that men are the oppressors.

    cb93a493d15540bb8d458ffd7810878c.png


    That is the definition of feminism. I don't see men's rights there. Because feminism does not fight for men's rights.

    See below. It might seem like just a name change to you which doesn't mean anything, but the ideology of feminism as a whole, for most people who follow it, is very dangerous. The more ground feminism gets, the more people will see women as oppressed. That isn't right. Women teach their daughters that they need to stand up for their rights, and they teach their sons that they need to be the best of society by being better than the other men by treating women as equals. That isn't fair. Feminism is as sexist as it is ridiculous. Drop the 'no true Scotsman' act. If you want to treat people as equals, stop trying to form your own homebrew branch of feminism and join something a little less outwardly sexist.

    71bd15f7cbd2432397ddfff02c2a8a33.png
     
    Last edited:

    noa

    sleeping cutie
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  • EDIT: I just want to add in that I find this above paragraph incredibly patronising. Honestly, I hate to generalise, but that seems to be classic feminism, always in the right. Please, we don't think feminism is important and just because you disagree doesn't mean you're educating us here. We aren't children. Give us an argument, not a lesson.

    Your right, reading it again it is a little sassy and accusatory off that bat. I'll check my sass at the door before entering the RT.

    Re: Sexual Agency
    Oh, well this is just about vague enough to make zero sense.

    To be clear, women continue to be vilified for having lots of sex (and enjoying it).
    http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00224490309552163#aHR0cDovL3d3dy50YW5kZm9ubGluZS5jb20vZG9pL3BkZi8xMC4xMDgwLzAwMjI0NDkwMzA5NTUyMTYzQEBAMA
    http://www.demographic-research.org/volumes/vol30/46/30-46.pdf (1331-1332 are especially important here)
    I also found this article pretty interesting as it links slut-shaming to class warfare: http://www.asanet.org/journals/SPQ/Jun14SPQFeature.pdf

    Men are raped. The only difference is that because feminists are getting there way, women are immediately preferred in court. That is sexism.
    I do talk about male rape later on in this post. Also, what do you mean "feminists getting their way?" Are you talking about when rapists are rightfully accused of rape? That's not "feminists getting their way," that's justice.

    You don't need feminism for that, you need a good pair of parents. Stop tooting your own horn.
    But it shouldn't be all on the parents. It should also be on schools promoting math and sciences from an early age.

    Women are naturally weaker than men, that's why this happens. If women were stronger than men, men would be afraid to walk alone at night. That's how it works. You don't need feminism to solve this, you need to arrest bad people.
    Well, yes we do actually, if we were taught not to approach single women trying to walk home their car at 8PM after work, then maybe women would start feeling safer in the streets.

    Because women totally won't do this too? You know, you're sounding like the sexist one here. Stop accepting all these gender stereotypes, wow.
    Well, there we go. I was enjoying this debate while it lasted, but you gave me the same sass that my initial response was apparently oozing with. Don't talk to me like I'm some unread child that you're attempting to one-up.
    It's not a stereotype, it's an actual thing that happens. The shadow of Elliot Rodgers is still hanging over us.
    http://www.rawstory.com/2016/04/texas-man-smashed-martini-glass-into-womans-face-after-she-told-him-to-stop-grinding-on-her/
    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/07/nyregion/teenager-sentenced-to-25-years-for-killing-girl-who-said-no-to-the-prom.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0
    http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2016/05/22/national/crime-legal/female-idol-stabbed-multiple-times-by-purported-fan-at-event-in-western-tokyo-police/#.V2AaGPkrLiy
    http://nymag.com/thecut/2015/06/nyc-man-attacked-asian-women-for-rejecting-him.html
    http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2016/01/22/police-investigating-deadly-shooting-of-woman-in-homewood/

    Re: "We can mention without feminism without something saying the word "tumblr"" What?

    Because feminism is unfortunately so heavily associate with tumblr, no one is willingly to research/discuss it past that. It's lazy.

    Please, stop. Egalitarianism. It's pretty cool. Feminism - no, that's about women. Stop taking a movement which has nothing to do with men's issues, and trying to turn it into a happy ideology for everyone. The name itself is incredibly sexist, and makes women out as the opressed in society. Women teach their daughters they are the victims and their sons that they need to be better than the rest of their sex. That is why feminism is disgusting. Sort your identity crisis out and then we'll talk.

    Then why is it called feminism!?
    How is the name sexist? Do you know what sexism is? It's when you believe that one sex is superior to the other. That's... not what feminism is about. Even in your google definition of feminism it says that it's EQUALITY of the sexes, not superiority. You are contradicting yourself.
    Women teach their daughters they are the victims
    Explain.
    and their sons that they need to be better than the rest of their sex
    What is wrong with teaching sons to treat their peers with excellence, when statistically, men commit the most crimes?

    So the main question is - why feminism? If you fight for both genders, why is the name of your ideology so sexist?
    It seems like the main reason that you and many others take a problem with feminism is because of the name. That icky "fem" part. Well, feminism was created for women, by women, and like any other social movement, evolved, changed and expanded. Feminism isn't just about "women" it's about femininity and dismantling the idea that femininity = bad, masculinity = good, noble, etc. Why can women engage in "masculine" behavior, but men can't engage in "feminine" behavior.
    This is why it's called feminism and not womanism.
     
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  • I think it's impossible to "teach men not to rape" in the sense that people who say that usually mean it. Testosterone predisposes men to violence, impulsivity and social dominance. No matter how much social conditioning there is, the hormonal contribution to behaviour will still be there. There will continue to be people who fall towards impulse or flagrantly defy the norms of society.

    So:

    • Women no longer feel afraid to walk alone at night in fear of men approaching them and making them feel unsafe.
    • Men no longer stalk, slander, and even murder women for rejecting their advances.

    I don't think either of those conditions will ever be met.
     

    noa

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  • I think it's impossible to "teach men not to rape" in the sense that people who say that usually mean it. Testosterone predisposes men to violence, impulsivity and social dominance. No matter how much social conditioning there is, the hormonal contribution to behaviour will still be there. There will continue to be people who fall towards impulse or flagrantly defy the norms of society.

    So:

    • Women no longer feel afraid to walk alone at night in fear of men approaching them and making them feel unsafe.
    • Men no longer stalk, slander, and even murder women for rejecting their advances.

    I don't think either of those conditions will ever be met.

    Oh, no, I definitely am aware that we live in an imperfect world and rape will never, ever go away.
    But that doesn't mean we can still do our best to prevent it. That includes teaching children to respect people's personal space, learn when no means no, NEVER excusing bad behavior with "boys will be boys", "she was asking for it" etc.
    And of course, this also means learning to properly defend oneself.
     
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