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Red/Blue remakes on 3DS

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  • Oh, I'm sure it's possible, but it's very difficult, especially with all of the hax that tends to infest these battle facilities.

    As for why the Emerald BF didn't return in ORAS, well, first of all, they were obviously trying to ignore as much of Emerald as possible. None of the Gym Leaders had their Emerald teams, and Juan was nowhere to be found. Don't ask me why they chose to do this (although, I can tell you that it isn't because they're going to make "DeltaEmerald" later), but it is what it is.

    And, time may have also been an issue. It's worth pointing out that both BFs were introduced in Third Versions, games that GF didn't have to build from the ground up, so that gave them more time to develop these large battle areas, create Frontier Brains, and the like.

    ORAS, on the other hand, were built completely from the ground up and took far more time to make than your typical Third Version, so it's possible that GF thought they could save time by just copying over the Battle Maison from XY instead of taking the time to recreate Emerald's BF in 3DS graphics. This is probably also why HGSS copy/pasted Platinum's BF instead of having a brand new one; it was easier to do, and it saved GF a lot of time.

    To be exact (although you may already know this), Masuda said in an interview that the Battle Frontier was gone because they thought not many people would care for it. But why would ORAS, a game that is remaking one they've done previously (and simply having to redesign some areas that were already in RSE) take more time to make than, say, Platinum? Gonna guess because of taking the RSE maps and turning them 3D.

    But that last point does make sense - if they wanted to save time to focus on other features then recycling the Battle Frontier wasn't completely out of line; the same logic can be made with B2W2 using the same Battle Subway as in BW.
     
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    But why would ORAS, a game that is remaking one they've done previously (and simply having to redesign some areas that were already in RSE) take more time to make than, say, Platinum? Gonna guess because of taking the RSE maps and turning them 3D.

    You pretty much answered your question. Platinum was nothing more than a slightly modified Diamond and Pearl rather than a completely new engine. ORAS, on the other hand, were a complete rebuilding of the old RSE on a completely new engine. The latter is, obviously, more time-intensive than the former.

    But that last point does make sense - if they wanted to save time to focus on other features then recycling the Battle Frontier wasn't completely out of line; the same logic can be made with B2W2 using the same Battle Subway as in BW.

    It's clear that GF sees battle facilities as a pure gameplay feature rather than anything with story importance, so they don't have any qualms about recycling the same facility in completely different regions (or giving sequels the exact same one that the prequels had). No, it doesn't make sense that Johto & Sinnoh and Hoenn & Kalos each have the exact same battle facilities with the exact same trainers, as the regions are all very far apart from one another, but that doesn't matter in GF's eyes.

    In short, Gen 1 remakes will inevitably get whatever battle facility Gen 7's main games introduce, regardless of whether or not it's in Kanto or the Islands.
     

    OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire

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  • You pretty much answered your question. Platinum was nothing more than a slightly modified Diamond and Pearl rather than a completely new engine. ORAS, on the other hand, were a complete rebuilding of the old RSE on a completely new engine. The latter is, obviously, more time-intensive than the former.



    It's clear that GF sees battle facilities as a pure gameplay feature rather than anything with story importance, so they don't have any qualms about recycling the same facility in completely different regions (or giving sequels the exact same one that the prequels had). No, it doesn't make sense that Johto & Sinnoh and Hoenn & Kalos each have the exact same battle facilities with the exact same trainers, as the regions are all very far apart from one another, but that doesn't matter in GF's eyes.

    In short, Gen 1 remakes will inevitably get whatever battle facility Gen 7's main games introduce, regardless of whether or not it's in Kanto or the Islands.
    In that case if what the Backpacker said is any indication then Kanto should get a big facility as he says his region (which will likely be the Gen VII region) has a impressive facility of some kind irc.

    At least in the case of Hoenn & Kalos it was explained (plus it makes sense as Hoenn is in the past) why there is a copy of the Maison in Hoenn (by Kalos' time the Emerald Battle Frontier likely already replaced the Maison). Unova's subway makes sense. Now Sinnoh & Johto sharing the same facility makes little sense...as there's only a small time difference.
     

    RandomDSdevel

    The EXP-Grinding Trainer
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  • I guess a Kanto re-remake will get stuck with whatever the game before it has as a facility :/ (hope it's good). Or maybe not, seeing how FRLG lacked the Battle Tower from Ruby and Sapphire. If it was due to time it would be nice for GF to just say so, rather than make up a bogus excuse :( .

    That isn't necessarily true! In FireRed and LeafGreen, there was a place called 'Trainer Tower' north of Quest Island, the island on which the town of 'Seven Island' was formed.
     
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    That isn't necessarily true! In FireRed and LeafGreen, there was a place called 'Trainer Tower' north of Quest Island, the island on which the town of 'Seven Island' was formed.

    Yeah, but making a generic "Trainer Tower" isn't quite the same thing as creating something as large and extensive as a Battle Frontier. Plus, I imagine that FRLG would've had Emerald's BF had the games been released after Emerald like HGSS were released after Platinum.
     

    OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire

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  • Trainer Tower was different from the Battle Tower. The tower north of Mauville in Emerald 'Trainer Hill' was more similar to Trainer tower so for Emerald they copied and pasted from FRLG (they also copied Alternate Cave), but FRLG didn't copy and paste from RS. So we have two Copy and Paste facilities in remakes, and one not. I guess chances for C&P are higher for the Gen VII facility.
     
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  • I want a RBY remake for the 3DS but I want a clean remake, not a sequel. I wasn't a huge fan of ORAS or X&Y because they were unnecessarily complex and I felt they deviated from prior gens too much. Call me a genwunner if you want but I'm just not a fan of Mea Evolutions and the like.
     

    RandomDSdevel

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  • I guess a Kanto re-remake will get stuck with whatever the game before it has as a facility :/ (hope it's good). Or maybe not, seeing how FRLG lacked the Battle Tower from Ruby and Sapphire. If it was due to time it would be nice for GF to just say so, rather than make up a bogus excuse :( .

    That isn't necessarily true! In FireRed and LeafGreen, there was a place called 'Trainer Tower' north of Quest Island, the island on which the town of 'Seven Island' was formed.

    Yeah, but making a generic "Trainer Tower" isn't quite the same thing as creating something as large and extensive as a Battle Frontier. Plus, I imagine that FRLG would've had Emerald's BF had the games been released after Emerald like HGSS were released after Platinum.

    I didn't say that I liked the entire idea of the Trainer Tower; I was just happy to find a battle facility there in my copy of FireRed when I first did. Given that I remember being somewhat annoyed when I figured out that battling there didn't earn me any Experience Points or Poké, I wouldn't mind seeing GameFreak replace it with something more substantial. I'm just saying that the Trainer Tower's location in FireRed and LeafGreen would be a reasonable place to put whatever battle facility ends up in the Kanto re-remakes.

    Trainer Tower was different from the Battle Tower. The tower north of Mauville in Emerald 'Trainer Hill' was more similar to Trainer tower so for Emerald they copied and pasted from FRLG (they also copied Alternate Cave), but FRLG didn't copy and paste from RS. So we have two Copy and Paste facilities in remakes, and one not. I guess chances for C&P are higher for the Gen VII facility.

    Speaking of Generation VII's battle facility, what do you think it'll look and be like? As I said above, I wouldn't mind seeing its Kanto/Sevii Islands counterpart be housed where the Trainer Tower is now, but that might be awkward depending on its original design in Generation VII's main games. If the Gen. VII battle facilities take up a vast area, then it wouldn't fit on northern Quest Island. In order for it to squeeze in there, it would either have to be reworked into some kind of more vertical format to fit inside a tower like the one that's already there or be hidden mostly underground or underwater and only have its entrance (and maybe a tower-like part of itself) visible aboveground. Personally, I think GameFreak should go the 'underwater' route since they've done pretty with making awesome undersea passageways in the past.
     
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    I'm just saying that the Trainer Tower's location in FireRed and LeafGreen would be a reasonable place to put whatever battle facility ends up in the Kanto re-remakes.

    Well, that's a given. The Battle Frontier was put in the same area in HGSS that the Battle Tower was located in Crystal, after all, so it makes sense that the new facility would go where the Trainer Tower was in FRLG. Of course, the Sevii Islands would (hopefully) get a drastic redesign, so that could possibly change that.
     

    OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire

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  • Well the Battle Resort is bigger compared to it's RS counterpart (but smaller than Emerald's) so they will likely just make it bigger to fit in the facility. I do hope that if they C&P the facility from the Gen VII games they change it up, like give it a color swap and different Frontier Brains.
     

    Cerberus87

    Mega Houndoom, baby!
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  • I sadly think 1st gen is too dated to remake. If you add Dark and Steel-types to the regional Pokédex, is it really a Kanto remake or a new game altogether? It would suffer from the same issue as ORAS, a game that doesn't know what it wants to be.

    Besides, if you remake Kanto again, you'll have to remake the subsequent generations again when the first remakes become too old... When will it stop, really? You'd possibly have generations with two remakes at the same time. That's too much work for GF.
     
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  • ^ Well I can assure you that you're not the only one to think that, not to mention with all the new mechanics it'd be likely that they might just be seen as attempting to make something different when really they could be simply rehashing old ideas.
     

    RandomDSdevel

    The EXP-Grinding Trainer
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  • I sadly think 1st gen is too dated to remake. If you add Dark and Steel-types to the regional Pokédex, is it really a Kanto remake or a new game altogether? It would suffer from the same issue as ORAS, a game that doesn't know what it wants to be.

    Besides, if you remake Kanto again, you'll have to remake the subsequent generations again when the first remakes become too old... When will it stop, really? You'd possibly have generations with two remakes at the same time. That's too much work for GF.

    Hopefully, this will only have to happen until every region is represented in a pair of games that's available on the eShop; after that, GameFreak can just issue updates every couple of generations or something.
     
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    Well the Battle Resort is bigger compared to it's RS counterpart (but smaller than Emerald's) so they will likely just make it bigger to fit in the facility. I do hope that if they C&P the facility from the Gen VII games they change it up, like give it a color swap and different Frontier Brains.

    Different Frontier Brains are unlikely, but a color swap could easily happen.

    I sadly think 1st gen is too dated to remake. If you add Dark and Steel-types to the regional Pokédex, is it really a Kanto remake or a new game altogether? It would suffer from the same issue as ORAS, a game that doesn't know what it wants to be.

    So, Gen 1 should just be left behind in the past and completely forgotten, then? Because, that's pretty much what's starting to happen. Fandom--even older fans--only care about the latest and greatest, which is why the Color/Metal and Advance Generation boards are less active than the others. If you're not into the newer games, then you don't have much of a community to turn to, anymore.

    The only reason Gen 1 (either RBY or FRLG) hasn't completely evaporated from memory is because of ROM hacks (and, more specifically, FireRed being the easiest base ever to hack, especially in comparison to the DS games). Sad that fan games are doing a better job of keeping the Gen alive than GF, but it is what it is.

    Besides, if you remake Kanto again, you'll have to remake the subsequent generations again when the first remakes become too old... When will it stop, really? You'd possibly have generations with two remakes at the same time. That's too much work for GF.

    Well, that's technology for 'ya. Old games become obsolete with new handhelds, and GF has decided that remakes are the solution to that problem, for better or worse.
     

    Cerberus87

    Mega Houndoom, baby!
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  • So, Gen 1 should just be left behind in the past and completely forgotten, then? Because, that's pretty much what's starting to happen. Fandom--even older fans--only care about the latest and greatest, which is why the Color/Metal and Advance Generation boards are less active than the others. If you're not into the newer games, then you don't have much of a community to turn to, anymore.

    The only reason Gen 1 (either RBY or FRLG) hasn't completely evaporated from memory is because of ROM hacks (and, more specifically, FireRed being the easiest base ever to hack, especially in comparison to the DS games). Sad that fan games are doing a better job of keeping the Gen alive than GF, but it is what it is.

    Yeah, pretty much. :P If you met me two years ago you'd know I was very vocal against Hoenn remakes (or any remakes after HGSS).

    I wish the old characters were still used in some fashion, but there are so many of them that it's a bit unreasonable for me to ask.

    I just can't see the need for a Kanto remake at this point, especially when to "modernize" it they'd probably modify it to the point it's not the original anymore. Pokémon is unique in that they make the game run on a different engine, but most remakes in gaming are basically re-releases with better graphics and rare gameplay enhancements. When they deviate too much from the original game they are often called a new game, like the New Super Mario Bros. series.

    Well, that's technology for 'ya. Old games become obsolete with new handhelds, and GF has decided that remakes are the solution to that problem, for better or worse.

    With which I disagree, since they'd keep remaking the same games periodically.

    The main draw of the new timeline is the Mega Evolutions. Origins isn't exactly canon but it gave us an idea of what the Kanto story would've been with Mega Evolution involved. So, story-wise, there's really nothing to see in a Kanto remake, if they deviated from it, it wouldn't be a "remake" anymore.
     
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    Yeah, pretty much. :P If you met me two years ago you'd know I was very vocal against Hoenn remakes (or any remakes after HGSS).

    Gen 3 was remade because it's impossible to play the games on modern hardware, and RSE lack many modern features that we know take for granted (like the P/S split... many fans consider the pre-DS games to be completely unplayable just for that one reason). Problem is that FRLG are in the exact same boat as RSE, so what do you do about them? Should people just abandon Gen 1 and move on for good (whether to the newer games or other fandoms, entirely)?

    I wish the old characters were still used in some fashion, but there are so many of them that it's a bit unreasonable for me to ask.

    And, the fandom pretty much only cares about the ones in the newest games or the older ones who keep on returning. It's no surprise that the franchise's most forgotten characters are all almost entirely from Gen 1 (with one exception), most of which failed to appear in any of the DS games. GF never cared about them, so fandom doesn't either.

    I just can't see the need for a Kanto remake at this point, especially when to "modernize" it they'd probably modify it to the point it's not the original anymore. Pokémon is unique in that they make the game run on a different engine, but most remakes in gaming are basically re-releases with better graphics and rare gameplay enhancements. When they deviate too much from the original game they are often called a new game, like the New Super Mario Bros. series.

    Didn't you say that HGSS was your favorite remake, and that FRLG were the "weakest remakes" at one time? HGSS changed a lot of things about the originals, while FRLG were barely more than an enhanced port (like you're describing). What changed?

    The main draw of the new timeline is the Mega Evolutions. Origins isn't exactly canon but it gave us an idea of what the Kanto story would've been with Mega Evolution involved. So, story-wise, there's really nothing to see in a Kanto remake, if they deviated from it, it wouldn't be a "remake" anymore.

    This is really blunt, but Origins sucked. The character design was eh, it failed horribly at gameplay and story segregation, and worst of all, it was extremely dry and boring. (When most of the Gym Leaders and E4 members are even less characterized than they were in RBY, your anime has serious problems.) It was also nothing more than a gigantic advertisement for Mega Charizard X.

    (I think most fans went gaga over it just because it starred Red instead of Ash, even when the special did what I thought was impossible in making Red an even duller and less interesting character than Ash ever was. Yawn.)

    Well, if we're going to cite non-canon fanfiction (which is essentially what Origins is) as an acceptable "substitute" for a Gen 1 remake, then let's give a shout out to ROM hacks and fan games. People who want a modern Gen 1 with Megas, Fairies, a P/S split, nicer graphics, and the rest of the goodies from later Gens should consider supporting Lighting Yellow, which is exactly what I described.
     

    Cerberus87

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  • Gen 3 was remade because it's impossible to play the games on modern hardware, and RSE lack many modern features that we know take for granted (like the P/S split... many fans consider the pre-DS games to be completely unplayable just for that one reason). Problem is that FRLG are in the exact same boat as RSE, so what do you do about them? Should people just abandon Gen 1 and move on for good (whether to the newer games or other fandoms, entirely)?

    I couldn't care less about RSE. It didn't deserve a remake IMO.

    If we keep remaking the old games, we'll get to the ludicrous situation 20 years from now where games will have two or three versions of each other. I really don't mind that 1st gen becomes forgotten, because its most important feature, its Pokémon, will live on.

    The only reason Pokémon games keep getting remade is because of connectivity, which makes the series unique, but even then you can't have all the regions represented in the same generation since we have six regions already. It's simply impossible.

    And, the fandom pretty much only cares about the ones in the newest games or the older ones who keep on returning. It's no surprise that the franchise's most forgotten characters are all almost entirely from Gen 1 (with one exception), most of which failed to appear in any of the DS games. GF never cared about them, so fandom doesn't either.

    Let's be honest, most Pokémon characters have little characterization. I can barely remember the Kalos gym leaders and the Team Flare admins, and we're talking about the current generation. I've always felt like GF allowed other media to characterize the opponents better. Characters in Pokémon very rarely leave their games. The anime writers have also forgot a ton of characters from the early days, but their "crime" was much bigger because Misty for example was an integral part of the show for a couple hundred episodes, and to simply write her off like they did left a bad taste in many people. Still, I'm probably saying this more because of my favoritism towards Misty than because they were wrong in doing it. :P

    I think that, except for Lorelei and Agatha, all of the 1st gen characters are in HGSS... And we even got Steven.

    Didn't you say that HGSS was your favorite remake, and that FRLG were the "weakest remakes" at one time? HGSS changed a lot of things about the originals, while FRLG were barely more than an enhanced port (like you're describing). What changed?

    Up to the League, HGSS was almost the exact same as GSC. The only differences were that it required you to make a trip to the Safari Zone, and also made you catch the box legendary before heading to Kanto, in an imitation of the plots in newer Pokémon games. HGSS never added Pokémon that weren't supposed to be there, for example, like you suggest for new Kanto remakes. Indeed, this meant the Pokédex was a little lacking in distribution, but that's what the original games were like, and they wanted to give the same experience of the originals. They didn't even fix the low level curve from GSC! Well, they sorta tried, but it was a half-assed effort.

    Quite a few of the changes in HGSS, especially in Kanto, were motivated by the need to integrate legendary Pokémon into the overworld. They brought back the Seafoam Islands and the Cerulean Cave for Articuno and Mewtwo, respectively. HGSS had many additions but the game is played mostly the same way as GSC.

    FRLG is not a port of the original RB. A port would mean it's the exact same game but for a different platform. FRLG was RB redone in a different engine, which is different. The problem with FRLG is that Kanto was so well-designed that it was a very "tight" region, making it hard to add something without breaking its "tightness". Therefore, they came up with the Sevii Islands, which I think they realized was a mistake since I believe they weren't referenced in any of the subsequent games. They were a nod to the Orange Islands from the anime, but they hardly had the same "charm".

    If I may use an analogy, I believe the remakes should be like when you add chocolate syrup on top of the vanilla ice cream, instead of replacing the vanilla ice cream with strawberry ice cream. You build upon the original game, not change it.
     

    OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire

    10000 year Emperor of Hoenn
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  • Yeah, pretty much. :P If you met me two years ago you'd know I was very vocal against Hoenn remakes (or any remakes after HGSS).

    I wish the old characters were still used in some fashion, but there are so many of them that it's a bit unreasonable for me to ask.

    I just can't see the need for a Kanto remake at this point, especially when to "modernize" it they'd probably modify it to the point it's not the original anymore. Pokémon is unique in that they make the game run on a different engine, but most remakes in gaming are basically re-releases with better graphics and rare gameplay enhancements. When they deviate too much from the original game they are often called a new game, like the New Super Mario Bros. series.



    With which I disagree, since they'd keep remaking the same games periodically.

    The main draw of the new timeline is the Mega Evolutions. Origins isn't exactly canon but it gave us an idea of what the Kanto story would've been with Mega Evolution involved. So, story-wise, there's really nothing to see in a Kanto remake, if they deviated from it, it wouldn't be a "remake" anymore.

    I can attest that Cerberus did in fact go against RSE remakes in the past few years (I recall it well as I was on the opposite side of the debate), along with any remakes post GSC remakes.

    I must say though that he does have a point in that it'll cause an endless cycle of remakes that I honestly can see no end to, and it hasn't even started yet (at least fully). It's sad to say but I do think sometimes that Gen I-III are heading to oblivion from now on. They will only be remembered by those who played the originals or their remakes, and by hack remakes of said generations. Gen II and III may be fresh so they may seem less distant but I certainly do feel that people are starting to forget about Johto, and once Gen VII (or even earlier) starts Hoenn will begin the process of fading as Johto did with BW's announcement. I would say this, that it'll be nice if GF gave Gens I-III one more remake in the distant future (maybe not so distant for Gen I), that of their third versions (more so Yellow and Emerald as they had things fans of those two missed from FRLG and ORAS). After that they can vanish into oblivion and hacks.

    It's sad to say but the only reference to the Sevii islands in recent years has been outside of the games, in Pokemon Special, with a character from the Sevii islands popping up in the ORAS saga.
     
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