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  #151    
Old April 22nd, 2013, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by TRIFORCE89 View Post
Egg on your face then, I guess.

Muslim doesn't mean you look middle eastern.
+1

I'm Muslim and I'm Caucasian. People mix up Persian and Arab ethnicity with being Muslim. Chinese people can be Christian. An Arab could be Buddhist. A Hispanic person could be Jewish. Really has nothing to do with it. Just because a certain people is stereotyped as being a certain religion - Arabs being Muslims, Hebrews being Jewish, Americans being Christian - doesn't mean they all are whatsoever, and it certainly doesn't mean that that religion is exclusive to a particular ethnicity either (as I've just proven with my own religious beliefs).

Not to mention, like Christians, there are different levels of "extreme" in Muslim societies. Whereas the Saudi Arabians have so integrated their religion into their politics (interpreting the Book at will and controlling the people with it - think, pre-Marthin Luther and Protestant society), other Muslim societies have developed women's rights and pretty much all of them outside of the Middle-East protest the burkah. I've seen some pretty extremist Christian riots and acts, too, like abortion clinic bombings that are on-par with stuff other people from other religions have done. It's all equally terrifying.

Anyway.
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  #152    
Old April 22nd, 2013, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Yusshin View Post
Christian riots and acts, too, like abortion clinic bombings that are on-par with stuff other people from other religions have done. It's all equally terrifying.
But much less frequent.

Everyone has crazies, religious or not.
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  #153    
Old April 22nd, 2013, 07:21 PM
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I think it's hard to "look" Middle Eastern. Technically, they're all Caucasian if you go by racial anthropology. And do Greeks look so different from Turks? I can't tell an Israeli Jew from an Arab Muslim. The Lebanese and Syrians look pretty white to me. If you give a Mediterranean man a big beard, he'll looks "Muslim" enough.

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Everyone has crazies, religious or not.
But Salafism is a big deal, and you can't say the same of any other religion in the world.
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  #154    
Old April 22nd, 2013, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Sydian View Post
Well, I'm aware of that, lol. But more often than not, they're not Caucasian. So if they do turn out to be Muslim (which I hope they aren't because that'd be more fuel for the people that jump to those conclusions) then egg on my face for assuming they're not Muslim. lol
The older one was probably an extremist. The FBI got reports from Russia that he held radical islam views a few years ago, and the younger one from what I've read wasn't that religious (smoke and drank often) but also called himself a muslim.

And yes, they're Caucasian Muslims out there; country I'm from (Albania) is pretty much all white and 70% of the population follow Islam iirc.


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Originally Posted by Rain Dancer View Post
I'll leave these here.


http://www.fromthetrenchesworldrepor...comment-396258

http://imgur.com/a/sUrnA

http://rt.com/op-edge/boston-bombers...-brothers-172/


This has been awfully strange since the start.. Never hurts to inform ourselves, you can't trust all that comes out of the TV. Too many interests there controlling. ;)
I don't understand why people think there are conspiracies about this. After seeing this pic, reading about Tamerlan having radical views (Youtube account had videos of other radicals I think), and both of them having bombs and weapons with them when confronted by police it should be pretty clear that they were the ones responsible for it.

If they were innocent they would have just went to the police and clear their names, just like the guy that wore blue who was falsely accused of being a suspect by people on the internet. Instead they shoot an MIT officer for no apparent reason and carjack someone.
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  #155    
Old April 22nd, 2013, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by BlahISuck View Post
But Salafism is a big deal, and you can't say the same of any other religion in the world.
It's only a big deal because the USA has made it one. Things like this have happened throughout history. There are things of this nature happening elsewhere in the world between different radical groups, but at most it'll get 20sec on the evening news, if acknowledged at all.

I read somewhere that the news adheres to what pertains to the audience. The only reason we think that it's a big deal is because we're not being told the "deals" in other countries and places, unless we specifically search for them online. We might not even react the same because it's not "happening to us" either, and the journalists feed off that reaction. It kind of ties into desensitization where we have become so used to violence on TV and in video games, etc. that it is only appalling or horrific if it happens at home or close to it. Otherwise, the war in Iraq? As far as we're concerned, other people aren't dying; only our soldiers are. Women being raped in crimes of war? Nope, that doesn't exist either /protective-bubble-effect

Plus, with the USA being a "super power" in the world atm, it's not farfetch'd to say that the news is biased towards USA-related events. The only time I ever see a highlight of violence in Europe is when Muslims are thought to be involved. Really, anywhere it's only "news" if Muslims are involved. The USA started that with their "War on Terror" nonsense. I totally get the premise, and it's a somewhat understandable reaction to what happened in '01, but imo it's gone on long enough. No good teaching the next generation to be racist and stereotypical; there's enough of that influence in other forms of media.

Though I'm part of the "government may be behind certain things" people, so my opinion might be different than that of others.



Is there any new "news" about the bombing itself, though?
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  #156    
Old April 22nd, 2013, 07:41 PM
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This has been the only recent headliner-worthy news:

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As he lay seriously injured in a Boston area hospital, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, 19, was charged with using a weapon of mass destruction and malicious destruction of property, counts that could bring him the death penalty. He made his first court appearance in an unusual, non-public proceeding in which a federal judge and several lawyers went to his hospital bed.
Source

Other than that, the only thing I've heard is that he can't physically speak since being taken into custody because of a wound to throat. As for that wound, I've heard both that it was inflicted by the police and that it was a failed attempt of suicide while he was in the boat.
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  #157    
Old April 22nd, 2013, 08:10 PM
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Salafism is taking root in many Arab countries that have previously been secular, modernist states. What used to be Arab nationalism is now giving way to an Islamic revival that is more literal than we liberal democrats would like. Jihadism is only comorbid with Salafism, but a growing spirituality and fundamentalism is evident in the Middle East. Even fashions are changing as men are increasingly sporting beards as an expression of their faith - that would've been unfashionable in Mubarak or Hussein's time - and look at al-Assad, but President Morsi has a beard. What they're doing now probably have the great Islamic philosophers rolling in their graves.

Even if it is given more attention than is deserved to the mainstream audience, it is nonetheless a powerful force that is changing how politics is done in the Middle-East and will inevitably affect the entire world. While this is no reason to stereotype Muslims, especially those who live in Western countries (although I feel this needn't be said), it's unfair to say that all religions have their fundies. Christian fundamentalism is a joke if you look at how the debate on homosexuality and abortion have turned out.
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  #158    
Old April 24th, 2013, 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Caelus View Post
I don't understand why people think there are conspiracies about this. After seeing this pic, reading about Tamerlan having radical views (Youtube account had videos of other radicals I think), and both of them having bombs and weapons with them when confronted by police it should be pretty clear that they were the ones responsible for it.

If they were innocent they would have just went to the police and clear their names, just like the guy that wore blue who was falsely accused of being a suspect by people on the internet. Instead they shoot an MIT officer for no apparent reason and carjack someone.
Then point out a clear motive that makes sense for them to have done this.



Not that religious brainwashing story. The kids were having a life and certainly they couldn't have fallen for this stupidity.

And explain these pictures that are all over the net http://imgur.com/a/Nx8EU , the inconsistencies and fear mongering all over the story by the media, the drill being in place when the bombings occured, testimonies from friends and families of the two kids about them, the CISPA coincidence, the convenient throat wound that doesn't make sense, the incredible police state tactic the government staged in Boston; effectively throwing the rights of a million people out of the window, treating them like prisoners, over searching for one man.
The police confrontation is up for debate as there's conflicting versions and no videos clearly proving it.

I still don't understand why people think there's no conspiracies about this.

I mean, really. It's been too much going on ever since this took place, and the official version looks like an improvised script that went bad. Many say the government did it. Who knows, but it is possible, and there's plenty of evidence to look at.

Sadly most watch too much TV, and at the sight of a different version on things, reject the whole thing outright without even researching the evidence.. That's not smart. :\
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  #159    
Old April 24th, 2013, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
I mean, really. It's been too much going on ever since this took place, and the official version looks like an improvised script that went bad.
And that's the main reason why I think it hasn't been staged. Reality does look like a badly improvised script. It would be much more suspicious if it seemed "too perfect". But, as you said, it's way too badly executed to be an actual plot and not the result of human beings being forced to act under great deals of stress in short time.

Quote:
Then point out a clear motive that makes sense for them to have done this.

Not that religious brainwashing story. The kids were having a life and certainly they couldn't have fallen for this stupidity.
And you know that explanation is fake because...?

No, really, do you think that it is more likely that there is a giant conspiration of elected officials and members of the administration to kill three people for some mysterious reasons than it just being the act of two deranged individuals, like Columbine? The first option would require hundreds or thousands of people being "in the know" and hiding it out very well; the second one only requires two guys going crazy- or rather, one bringing his younger brother along. Occam's razor- usually the simplest explanation is the correct one. Not saying this is necessarily the case here, but when giving a first glance at it... yeah.

Oh, also, the older brother was in a FBI suspect watchlist since 2011, after they got a "tip-off" from a Russian source. Although well, there is the chance that they put him in that list two years in advance knowing he'd be in Boston that day so they could blame him for the attacks they were already planning back then, the same way the evil masterminds that be published a message announcing the birth of Kenyan Barack Obama in two Hawaii newspapers the day after he was born knowing that would come in handy several decades later. But it doesn't look very likely.

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And explain these pictures that are all over the net http://imgur.com/a/Nx8EU
People on the "conspiracy" mindset looking for "errors" with blurry images you can't really tell properly. You know, they might be right, but I can't say anything about many undated pictures just floating round the interwbez that could have been doctored by anybody- including me, if I had wanted to.

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the inconsistencies and fear mongering all over the story by the media
Hello I work for the media. You know how it is when there is a car accident and every police officer tells you X, the victims say Y, a witness says Z and you need to report it as soon as possible because that's what makes your reporting worth it? Well, you get inconsistencies. Or you avoid reporting things people disagree about. Or you say X and then realize that Y is what actually happened and have to retract yourself. That's the last thing I'd worry about. We are just people trying to find out what happened to explain it to people. I'm sorry if we don't have the magical "script" telling exactly what happened from the very first moment.

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the drill being in place when the bombings occured
...any sources? I mean, any sources other than random websites on the internet citing one eyewitness- which is the lowest possible level of trusted evidence you can possibly find. Because the only thing I found is that the Boston Bomb Squad was having bomb training (I know, unbelieveable, right? What kind of bomb squad undergoes regular training exercises?) somewhere else on the city- and I have only found a tweet from the Boston Globe about it.

Oh, and the main rule: Improbable Things Happen.

Quote:
testimonies from friends and families of the two kids about them
What?

Quote:
the CISPA coincidence
Improbable Things Happen. Although it's not really improbable that the House -this House- would pass a failed law in the newly-assembled Congress- we are talking about the same House that has voted to repeal Health Care what, 40 times now? In three years.

And how is Cispa related to the bombings anyway?

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the convenient throat wound that doesn't make sense
I'd like to hear more about it, Doctor.

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the incredible police state tactic the government staged in Boston; effectively throwing the rights of a million people out of the window, treating them like prisoners, over searching for one man.
Well, it's called "Shelter in place". It's a standard procedure for terrorist attacks that has been used a dozen times in US history and, by design, can only be mantained for a day or just a little more time. So don't worry, they are not hijacking your rights. It's a security measure.

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I still don't understand why people think there's no conspiracies about this.
Because there are logical explanations for most of the "questions" that arose and many people opt to generally trust people with power than to consider that they must be lying by default and look for every possible lingering detail to conclude that the entire thing is false. I'm not saying that it is good or bad, I'm just stating a fact.

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Many say the government did it. Who knows, but it is possible, and there's plenty of evidence to look at.
Well, you are using a very broad definition of "many" here. And yeah, maybe the evil Australian Government is behind all this, who knows.

Quote:
Sadly most watch too much TV, and at the sight of a different version on things, reject the whole thing outright without even researching the evidence.. That's not smart. :\
It's not smart though to believe every explanation presented by every other man out there either. And it's not that they reject the thing because "it's a different version" than the one "show by the TV". I'm a journalist, I don't watch TV, I write the stuff that goes on TV, and I'm obviously going to be wary of a story constructed out of suspicions, blurry videos and the general idea that what looks obvious is actually an elaborate plot by evil sinister forces. You know, they might be right- but I like more evidence to believe that. Watergate was discovered because a member of the FBI fed official info to the journalists, not because they looked at blurry camera footage hoping to see something.
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Last edited by Went; April 24th, 2013 at 08:27 AM.
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  #160    
Old April 24th, 2013, 08:37 AM
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Went was right on the money with pretty much everything... okay maybe our government here isn't quite evil... but everything else was dead on.
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  #161    
Old April 24th, 2013, 09:18 AM
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Well, I was being general and vague in my last post, perhaps to awaken some curiosity in people so they could start their own research.


Here Went, I was just reading here this one a while ago. It's called solid evidence, and this one's backed up by medical knowledge and a video of the events:
http://educate-yourself.org/cn/bosto...k20apr13.shtml

We can dissect this whole topic piece by piece, starting with this one. I don't like having 10 or so arguments at the same time in one post. Let's focus on one at a time.

This one looks tough to explain. What do you say?
Couldn't have been cauterized.. That would've required too much intense heat.. Where are the gallons of blood spurting out here?

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  #162    
Old April 24th, 2013, 09:42 AM
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The tourniquet isn't professional because as a bystander, you don't come equipped with a tie stick. You rip off articles of you own clothing and make do with what you have. If this was acting, they probably would have overproduced by having everybody use proper equipment.

People give directions because they're trained to be first responders. One of the things you have to do is order random bystanders to call 9/11 or get help because you are preoccupied with helping the victim. Also, blood is really that red. I've seen what my own blood looks like on the ground in decently large quantities. The camera sensor can also have a part to play in how it turned out in the photo.

Also the last part about Vogt vs. Bauman. Whoever wrote this article is on crack or needs glasses. They do not have the same hairline. Vogt clearly has a lot more forehead, but I guess the author found it in him or herself to outright lie. And Vogt has straight hair while Bauman has curly hair.
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  #163    
Old April 24th, 2013, 10:15 AM
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About Lt. Vogt, I'll let these guys speak instead: http://www.snopes.com/politics/consp...oston.asp#vogt

Continuing from where BIS left it right before me, the guy does look very pale, due to, I don't know, losing a ton of blood? I'm not a doctor- I don't know whether the guy writing that is either because it's just a random unknown writing on the Internet who could be pretending to be Margaret Thatcher if they wanted to. Also the "it's fake blood because I say so" part doesn't convince too much. And the Holywood Spy Movie "signals in 10 frames" thing sounds too stupid. Also tehre is a more logical explanation: they were just people in shock trying to react. Oh, and the glasses? To protect his eyes from the dust. I have no idea, I'm just trying to find a logical explanation that doesn't involve actors and "flashing powder" (and it's not taking me too much brainpower to do so).

Anything else to prove your point?
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  #164    
Old April 24th, 2013, 01:06 PM
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This pisses me off.
In this day and age you're either a sheep, or berated as an idiot who's entirerly wrong.

Proscribing so heavily to the explaination you've been given is no better then completely dismissing it.
In fact, it's worse. Why, you ask? Because you stop thinking.

Rain dancer, you should know better then to throw pearls.

And the rest of you, you should be ashamed of yourselves.
You occupy your minds with false beliefs because you agree with them, and you close your eyes to anything that doesn't fit in with your picture.
Maybe you are right, maybe this entire thing has been answered, and the government is all happy friendly to it's people and they would never lie to us.
But maybe your not. You acknowledge that possibility, right?
Now, on the chance that you're wrong, would you rather that everybody just swallowed this explaination and this whole thing was forgotten?
Answer that question for yourself. Hell, think about it.
But know you this, every great mind, every man who has changed the world, has done so by letting go of their fear to be wrong.

Livewire, whilst as I'm sure you are tempted to delete this post, and may well, I ask that you leave it up. At the very least maybe it'll be shocking enough to turn gears.
But I don't know, maybe I'm just an idiot.
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  #165    
Old April 24th, 2013, 02:16 PM
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I fail to see how there can be any conspiracy about it. Every argument I've read saying it's a conspiracy can get refuted if you've done your research. Like the one with that principal at Sandy Hook; I can't really disprove that for I didn't watch it, but did that person ever think that maybe they were referencing her? The words on the screen don't always go with the image and Newport is pretty close to Boston, so maybe Donna was running the marathon in honor of her?


The only conspiracy that I can understand is why was the backpack black when Johar had a white backpack. My two theories are that it's either Tamerlan's backpack (he had a black one) or when it exploded the backpack went inside-out, showing the black interior instead (don't even know if that's possible but it's only a theory of mine).



On a related note, Johar is telling them that the attacks were inspired by religion (no surprise) and that they were defending their faith. There's still several unanswered questions but at least he's talking.
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Old April 24th, 2013, 05:48 PM
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In this day and age you're either a sheep, or berated as an idiot who's entirerly wrong.
It's funny you say that because it sounds like you're berating people who believe it wasn't a government plot as idiots who are entirely wrong.

I don't see any problem with believing it was an attack by two brothers. That kind of things has happened before, and will sadly probably happen again. That collage of images with lines and circles that was in a link posted earlier on this page doesn't convince me that it means anything. Like was said, they're not dated, timestamped, or anything like that. They show... what? Backpacks? Most backpacks are pretty similar. With a crowd like there was I'm sure there were plenty of backpacks. People looking "away" in a still photo? That doesn't mean anything, people can have their attention caught by anything and glance at it in a moment, or just turn their heads because they have an itch or anything. There's just conjecture and nothing definitive. It feels more like a story that people went looking for evidence of than a conclusion of people who were open to all the evidence and wanted to know what happened.
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  #167    
Old April 24th, 2013, 09:36 PM
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If it's a conspiracy, what's... the point of it exactly? Government did it just for fun? Wouldn't they have had to gain something out of it?

And the lock-down wasn't a big deal. It was voluntary (or strongly-encouraged)

Also, pictures of people not looking at the race? Really? That's suspicious. You know what? I don't like sports. I've been to more sporting events than I can count and for pretty much all of them I'm distracted by the rotating advertisement boards. You wouldn't be able to get a picture of me looking at the field, court, what have you. And if I was at the marathon, it'd probably be because I had a family member running. And if they weren't crossing at the moment, then I'm sure as hell not watching for people I don't know or care about. I'll be doing something on my phone most likely or looking around for a doughnut shop. It isn't suspicious. Jeez

Even with that other guy people were fixated on for a bit. The guy running away without helping anyone. If I was on my own (and whoever I was waiting for at the finish line wasn't there at the time) then I'd be doing the same thing. A bomb just went off. I wouldn't know what could possibly be happening next. So, I'd be sure to get my butt out of there before something else possibly blows up. If I was there with family for instance, yes I'd help them and make sure we're all safe. But, if not? You're on your own, sorry. I'm running away to safety.
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  #168    
Old April 24th, 2013, 10:03 PM
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To add to what TRIFORCE89 said, it can be very hard for bystanders to act properly. Many of them are probably caught in a loop between running away and trying to help. Ultimately you can feel stupid for standing around doing nothing, which would explain why one of the men kind of stood there for minutes before helping. A situation like a bomb would be the perfect scenario to showcase how irrational and instinctual man can be.
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Old April 24th, 2013, 10:16 PM
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I'm no sheep. I question every action the government takes, and disagree with most of them. I'm even willing to give conspiracy theories a listen, but life isn't as mystical as you think. There is no magic in this world. The people running our governments are just that: people. Just like you and me. There is no way they could cover up the majority of the conspiracy theories I hear, or control all of our lives without us knowing. It's just not possible for humans to do.

That said, through the media and politics, they can control far more than I'd like... but these are all relatively small things, like changing laws, and more importantly, they're all done for the same reason, whether it be individuals or corporations: money. So that begs the question; where was the money in the Boston Bombings? Or perhaps intentionally arresting the wrong people? (Who just so happened to be the suspects the FBI identified, posses multiple explosives, USE those explosives against police, and not attempt to clear their name at all.) I don't see how anyone (important) could have profited from this.
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Old April 25th, 2013, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by TRIFORCE89 View Post
And the lock-down wasn't a big deal. It was voluntary (or strongly-encouraged)
*Knocks on your door followed by screams, you open.*

*A loaded assault rifle is pointed at your face*

OUT OF THE HOUSE! NOW!
HANDS UP! MOVE, GO GO GO!

*Officers storm your house and take your family outside by gunpoint*

You can't leave the house; and if you're out, you can't go in. You can get arrested for any reason, many were because they were walking in the wrong areas. Your property is momentarily seized as you, horrified, come to the realization that nothing you 'own' is really yours, when those in power have the authority to do as they please with you and all you have.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2be_1366536241

It probably isn't a big deal, you say? Oh, it's for national security?
Keep sleeping and pay your taxes, prisoner.

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Originally Posted by Scarf View Post
It's funny you say that because it sounds like you're berating people who believe it wasn't a government plot as idiots who are entirely wrong.

I don't see any problem with believing it was an attack by two brothers. That kind of things has happened before, and will sadly probably happen again. That collage of images with lines and circles that was in a link posted earlier on this page doesn't convince me that it means anything. Like was said, they're not dated, timestamped, or anything like that. They show... what? Backpacks? Most backpacks are pretty similar. With a crowd like there was I'm sure there were plenty of backpacks. People looking "away" in a still photo? That doesn't mean anything, people can have their attention caught by anything and glance at it in a moment, or just turn their heads because they have an itch or anything. There's just conjecture and nothing definitive. It feels more like a story that people went looking for evidence of than a conclusion of people who were open to all the evidence and wanted to know what happened.
Most backpacks are pretty similar?

WRONG.

Evidence:
http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2013...a-photo-essay/

More pearls.
Why is everyone so seemingly afraid to analyze the evidence that's out there that contradicts the "official" story? What do you fear?

That your whole lives were based on lies?

If this is not evidence to you, -photo and video evidence-, let me say.. Then what is? Blind trust on the system and media?

Well that sounds like a religious belief.


If we were to discuss about possible motives the government may have to make these acts, well, that's another different topic, and a broad one. This thread is about the Boston bombings, let's keep it at that.

Last edited by Rain Dancer; April 25th, 2013 at 10:53 AM.
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Old April 25th, 2013, 11:09 AM
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Someone needs a chill pill.

You can't get arrested for just any reason. Law doesn't work that way. There were people getting their panties in a bunch about the 4th Amendment but their reasoning for searching homes was very well justified given the nature of the victim's little disappearance for roughly 12 hours. They were taking above and beyond precautions to locating Dzhokhar and I commend them for that.

Also, I personally don't feel like a prisoner. Maybe in your eyes you see Americans as such but I really don't and I'm actually happy that our government took such drastic measures to apprehending a man known for bombing, shooting, and even running over his own brother and dragging him for about 20 feet. But hey! If you wouldn't want your government to make every effort in apprehending them then by all means you're free to feel that way.

Neither of your sites seem reputable by any means, either. They're mostly shock effect conspiracy theories.

Sorry but pretty much everything your posting is easily debunked. The evidence is there that this was an attack by two brothers. I also heard that Dzhokhar has given a report that the reasoning behind the attacks was religious motivation. That's entirely legit given their background and the brother's activity in Russia and online. That's it, and if you feel that there is a whole background of government sleuth and conspiracy then frankly friend, that's your problem.
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Old April 25th, 2013, 11:15 AM
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That would be too easy Azalea. Claim all the information is coming from low reputable internet sites and you just solved this whole thing? Well.. Thing is most to all of those pictures were published in the mainstream media too.

If I was to "de-bunk" all of this, also.. It wouldn't be easy at all. Sorry.
Perhaps you'd like to lend a hand?

You just can't come up with lazy explanations like this to prove your beliefs. Give me proof. Not the official story, not the speculations, but pictures, theories that make sense.

People were treated like prisoners there in Boston, with guns pointed at them, that's fact. Most didn't feel like it, though, they thought they were doing the right thing, and it's perfectly fine to feel that way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Went View Post
About Lt. Vogt, I'll let these guys speak instead: http://www.snopes.com/politics/consp...oston.asp#vogt

Continuing from where BIS left it right before me, the guy does look very pale, due to, I don't know, losing a ton of blood? I'm not a doctor- I don't know whether the guy writing that is either because it's just a random unknown writing on the Internet who could be pretending to be Margaret Thatcher if they wanted to. Also the "it's fake blood because I say so" part doesn't convince too much. And the Holywood Spy Movie "signals in 10 frames" thing sounds too stupid. Also tehre is a more logical explanation: they were just people in shock trying to react. Oh, and the glasses? To protect his eyes from the dust. I have no idea, I'm just trying to find a logical explanation that doesn't involve actors and "flashing powder" (and it's not taking me too much brainpower to do so).

Anything else to prove your point?
Perhaps he was supposed to look pale; his legs we ripped apart.

But, allright, whoever he was, how is he still alive?
And because of it, he should be spurting blood like a fountain, with wounds like that. No, I mean, actual, real blood. The dark one, plenty of gore too.. not that shiny red thing, whatever it is.

Coming form the doctors:

"If you loose both your legs from explosive trauma half your blood is gone in one minute via the femoral arteries, you're dead after two. Bleeding out is worse with blunt force trauma (like shrapnel) because flesh is torn rather than cut, exposing more arterial and vascular tissue. The human body holds 5 to 6 LITERS of blood. If that really happened, you would see blood EVERYWHERE, the guy would be drenched in it. You would also see what’s called arterial spurting from the injury. Most likely he would vomit after turning ghost white from shock, then turning delirious or passing out. As for the “tourniquet”…

It's not even tied off, it's suspended via gravity, which would literally do nothing to an arterial sever. There’s no pressure applied. There’s no knot with a turn stick for leverage. You can clearly see a gap in the nonexistent wrap job on his left inner thigh (left anterior proximal for you experts). His hands have no blood on them. There’s no blood on the ground. The color in his hands and lips shows good circulation.

No blood is present. The bone is dry, no blood on his leg above the knee, no blood on the woman, no arterial spurt, nothing."

Last edited by Rain Dancer; April 25th, 2013 at 11:30 AM.
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Old April 25th, 2013, 11:22 AM
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Is there any evidence he actually did anything religious in Russia? His mother or aunt (can't remember) claims he went to renew his passport (or something similar); his trip was prolonged simply because he wanted to stay a little longer, which I don't think is suspicious. It only becomes suspicious in the bombing context because imo some people try to fish for details to puzzle together a scenario that satisfies them. Human nature.

Have not read anyone in Russia claiming to have seen him doing terrorist activities, "training" or hanging out with the bad sort. His father is convinced it's a set-up.

I just want to know what evidence there is that he was actually "in training" for terrorist acts in Russia.
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Old April 25th, 2013, 11:38 AM
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His "terrorist" nature is a little more homegrown from what I saw on the news last night. He had an acquaintance in the Boston area who was also of Islamic belief and convinced him to stop drinking, give up boxing, etc. They're trying to locate him but have had no success yet. The whole background with the brother is a little hazy right now, but what's throwing red flags up about his visit was that two years ago the FBI was tipped by the Russian government that Tamerlan may be up to extremist activities.
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Old April 25th, 2013, 12:49 PM
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We are not "afraid" that "our whole lives" were based on lies. We don't think that the Government "always says the absolute truth". There is a loooooooooooooooot of different colours and shades between "sheep" and "berated idiots".

I can't speak for everybody in here who supports the official version, but in my case this is what I think:
-First of all, the Government is not a magical alien thing full of inhuman beings. In a democratic country, specially one with a complex system of checks and balances as the US, Governments are supposed to be composed of normal people which can be elected and dismissed every few years. There certainly are corrupt Governments out there who lie and manipulate for their lives, as a way of controlling population, in places without any citizen supervision. The US though, has a powerful legislative and a heavily inquisitorial media who would eat them alive if caught lying (see: Nixon, Clinton, Bush).

In other words, I can believe that there can be corrupt officials, or that every politican will try to paint their actions in the best light to get their points across or just to be reelected. But that's human nature, and that's why we can vote them out if we feel they are too human.

What I just cannot understand though, is the idea that the Government is part of a crazy millenial plot orchestrated by some mysterious people in charge of everything and who are behind everything that happens. Mostly because you can't keep such a ridiculously complex plot going on indefinitely. Quoting Lincoln: "It is true that you may fool all of the people some of the time; you can even fool some of the people all of the time; but you can't fool all of the people all of the time".

tl;dr: If a Government lied to us all the time, we'd end up finding out and voting their asses out of our way. Nixon demonstrated.

- Second: trust. It is bad to blindly believe everything you are told is true all the time; it is equally as bad to blindly believe everything you are told is false all the time.

As human beings, we deposit trust on other people. You go to a doctor who has studied a career in medicine because you trust he'll know about your illness, you go to a lawyer who has an official degree because you think he'll advice you properly, you go to a restaurant people have recommended because you trust X people won't be too wrong about your tastes. In this case, people will trust investigators with investigating cases and their elected officials with managing politics.

It's true that some people will not go to doctors because they believe in Chinese energy therapies, will reject lawyers as they believe they'll try to undermine them instead and won't go to any restaurants in fear of being poisoned or will believe a random guy on the interwebz who claims to know the truth instead of a police speakperson, but most people will "put their defenses down" and generally give trust to people until they break it. It's not a matter of "brainwashing", just of human nature. We live in societies, we can't be wary of everybody all the time. It's not healthy.

So now let's go into the actual case. I saw:

- A fairly large, chaotic and complex situation that would have required from insane coordination if it was an act, but would have been perfectly natural if it had just been what it looks like, a situation of chaos.
- Policemen and investigators, who are supposed to investigate, conducting an investigation and arriving to some results. Since I haven't followed their logic, I can't be sure they arrested the right people, and I know they have made mistakes very, very often in the past, so I won't just accept everything they say. But then the suspects happen to be included in a terrorist watchlist since 2011, attack policemen, do nothing to clear their names, and even accept their involvement. Since I don't know exactly how the investigation was developed but there were lost of people watching and reporting live, several witnesses to the interrogations, etc, I'm inclined to believe them.

-In turn, I see people resorting to undated ("naked suspect", which could have been taken in 2008 for all we know), partial ("unharmed suspect", where we can only see a side), blurry pictures (virtually all of them), some of them openly manipulated (see: picture of the Sandy Hook principal, which is photoshopped), misjudged ("Army Lt."), etc., and my opinion is: "Oh, look, people already made a picture of an "Evulz Guvmint Lie" and are looking everywhere for any small detail they can twist into serving their narrative". Most of all, all reasons seem to be designed from the basis that everything was a lie. This is not a logical sequence of pictures, details and all assembled in a way to open the possibility of a cover up; it's a bunch of pictured assembled from the basis that everything was a lie and therefore there must be errors somewhere.

- Then, there is Occam's Razor: the easiest explanation for anything is usually the correct one. There is no saying which is easier: two crazies setting off two bombs for ideological reasons or thousands of people staging an evil plot for some reason.

- Furthermore, there is no real explanation for this. The "declaring martial law" thing would be okay except no martial law has been declared anywhere that I know of and "turing the US into a dictatorship" has the small problem of being illegal and unconstitutional, meaning any lowly district judge from Alabama has the power to overturn that declaration, the Congress can impeach him and the political pressure from everywhere would be barely bearable- not to mention that would be most likely to create a civil war scenario as a huge chunk of armed people in the US are either independent or under States' jurisdiction.

Taking our gunzz? Well, again, it's unconstitutional, and if *insert number of people dead in shootings as of now* hasn't been enough of a reason for the Republicans to accept even some small gun control measures, three more people WON'T change a thing- and indeed haven't.

"Covering up" the fact that the Republican-controlled House has passed CISPA for the second time in a year? Well, that's kind of stupid as a) the House passing a law doesn't mean anything in itself, and b) the Ivulz Democratic Guvmnt does not support it and, in fact, would profit from going all "hey look, the Republicans are passing this law. Young people/internet users mostly from cities, this goes against your interests! Vote for us, we'll overturn it again!" on TV. They gain nothing from "covering it up"! And, in case you didn't hear it, it was the Democratic-held Senate that voted CISPA down less than one year ago and made that law passed by the House a worthless piece of trash paper. And the same Senate controlled by the same people is planning to do the same thing this year with the law the House just passed. And the evul leader of the Guvmint, Obama, has vowed to veto that law since, you know, without his signature, any law is a worthless piece of trash paper.

So we have a extraordinarly intrincate plot, that would require thousands of people from several agencies, the army, the police, the administration, you name it, being "in the know" and not telling anybody; and instead making stupid mistakes as "not feeding the right info to TV's" or "allowing witnesses to see the truth" and even take pictures of it, which sounds incredibly amateurish for such a complex plot.

And we don't know any logical reason why the Government would do that when they already have enough power of their own, and their actions do not follow the sinister "martial law coming any day now!!" theories, which have been said a million times with no martial law having been declared yet.

In the 30's, the German Parliament caught fire and Hitler took the chance to blame a communist, send all communists MP's to jail or just kill them, and illegalize the party, reducing the amount of votes he'd need to pass a law declaring himself dictator, as it finally happened once he managed to get rid of enough opposition MP's. I can understand conspiracy theories arising then as the Government had a very good reason to do so, profited handsomely from the event and was perfectly capable of pulling it off, since it only required one crazy grunt and the Nazi Party had thousands of those at their disposal. But here? I don't see any way in which a conspiracy theory would make sense other than the general mindset of "the Government is always evil and everything bad that happens must be their fault somehow". And I can't follow that logic, sorry.

Also- just saw the update. Who is that doctor anyway? A guy calling himself a doctor on the internet talking about pictures and off-hand descriptions of the event? Sounds something I wouldn't doubt a second to ignore when writing any story at work.

(Also dropping this here: http://www.nbcnews.com/id/26315908/n...show/#51653479 )
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Last edited by Went; April 25th, 2013 at 01:14 PM.
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