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In an attempt to get this thread out of this **** Smogon-hate that happens every god damn iteration of this thread:

I have to sadly agree with the Mega-Mawile ban. That thing has incredible defensive typing, as well as a massive attack stat that is unparalleled (152 points higher than Mewtwo-X's base 190, assuming max-investment for both). I mean this thing is a ****ing monster. I'm sad to see it go because it's my favorite Mega design-wise and it was pretty much my only locked in slot for an OU team, if I had made one.

.Aero said:

In an attempt to get this thread out of this **** Smogon-hate that happens every god damn iteration of this thread:

I have to sadly agree with the Mega-Mawile ban. That thing has incredible defensive typing, as well as a massive attack stat that is unparalleled (152 points higher than Mewtwo-X's base 190, assuming max-investment for both). I mean this thing is a ****ing monster. I'm sad to see it go because it's my favorite Mega design-wise and it was pretty much my only locked in slot for an OU team, if I had made one.

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Yeah, M-Mawile ban makes sense for them, can't say I'm really against it either :v What do you think, if anything - is going to see a rise in usage now that it's out of the picture for their OU tier?

Polar Spectrum said:

Why? Because Smogon doesn't actually care if something is 'broken' or 'centralizing' gameplay, they care if the simple majority of their community doesn't like it. There's an argument here about counters to what gets banned, and how easily it can be dealt with. But when you compare the amount of moves, that ignore evasion boosts, hit for double damage on evasive targets, and the abilities that ignore evasion, and on and on about evasion - and compare THAT to how many ways you have to deal with stealth rock? It's a stark and harrowing contrast. Smogon LIKES rocks; but they don't LIKE evasion. Despite how many means there are to dealing with both. (Don't get me wrong I don't like evasion either; but this argument stands.)

Evasion is LUCK based. Luck doesnt add anything to the game and turns the game into a crap shoot. Huge difference. Also moves that hit evasion are a steaming stinking pile of grade A Montezuma monkey crap. Also if the community doesnt like something thats a pretty big indicative that its broken.

This applies directly to their mega bans too; most of those banned megas share a lot of common common weaknesses. Lucario, Kangaskhan, Mawile, NONE of them like a simple burn. Kangaskhan usually can't even hit ghosts with Power-Up Punch, Sucker Punch, Return and Fake out! (yes, I know sucker punch, but since that's its only option, and it relies on you attacking, in singles you can literally just sit there and use will o wisp repeatedly and it can't touch you.) Lucario, and Mawile, BOTH weak to ground, and fire. Very common offensive attack types.

Khanga gets Crunch js. Nothing outspeeds Khanga to burn it that can take hits from it. Same with Luke and Mawile except said users of said fire and ground also cant take hits from them.


Smogon just doesn't' want to change, they want their meta played their way on their terms. And unfortunately, what that all is, is being decided by the same people, over and over again.

No, its being decided by good battlers who ladder and as thus get voting reqs. Smogon doesnt just decide things on a whim. Of course the aforementioned pokemon couldnt be broken at all. [/sarcasm]

By the waaaay - totally open to another topic haha. Just continuing this tangent because I have a lot to say on it. I DO - have a nice thing to say about them though - the names they give their suspect test threads for things, are kinda awesome lol. I cracked up when I saw the Mega Kangaskan suspect test thread name...

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Imo people should read Anti's post about logical fallacies.

Evasion is LUCK based. Luck doesnt add anything to the game and turns the game into a crap shoot. Huge difference. Also moves that hit evasion are a steaming stinking pile of grade A Montezuma monkey crap. Also if the community doesnt like something thats a pretty big indicative that its broken.

Then why dynamic punch, zap cannon, inferno, scald, will o wisp, any confusion, any paralysis, super luck, any crit rate moves, or crits at all


Khanga gets Crunch js. Nothing outspeeds Khanga to burn it that can take hits from it. Same with Luke and Mawile except said users of said fire and ground also cant take hits from them.

Prankster Sableye

No, its being decided by good battlers who ladder and as thus get voting reqs. Smogon doesnt just decide things on a whim. Of course the aforementioned pokemon couldnt be broken at all. [/sarcasm]

Pardon this crude comparison, but I suspect you'll be able to draw my analogy from it -

If a group of toddlers all build towers, from toy blocks, to see who can make a building the best- whichever among them builds the tallest and sturdiest tower is presumably the best at building block towers. It doesn't qualify them to dictate the building code for their preschool however.

Polar Spectrum said:

Then why dynamic punch, zap cannon, inferno, scald, will o wisp, any confusion, any paralysis, super luck, any crit rate moves, or crits at all

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Well, you seem like a logical person. How would you handle these moves? Ban them all? Good idea.

Prankster Sableye

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As if a sane person would keep a Kanga in on a Sableye anyway. Honestly if you do know how to battle at all, you'd know when to switch out and when to stay in.

Pardon this crude comparison, but I suspect you'll be able to draw my analogy from it -

If a group of toddlers all build towers, from toy blocks, to see who can make a building the best- whichever among them builds the tallest and sturdiest tower is presumably the best at building block towers. It doesn't qualify them to dictate the building code for their preschool however.

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Your analogy, however, is flawed. Basically you're saying that Smogon is trying to dictate how everyone should play when they don't. I've covered this plenty in a previous post, and its really getting tiring to keep reiterating myself.

Zeffy said:

Well, you seem like a logical person. How would you handle these moves? Ban them all? Good idea.


As if a sane person would keep a Kanga in on a Sableye anyway. Honestly if you do know how to battle at all, you'd know when to switch out and when to stay in.


Your analogy, however, is flawed. Basically you're saying that Smogon is trying to dictate how everyone should play when they don't. I've covered this plenty in a previous post, and its really getting tiring to keep reiterating myself.

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Well hey now, no need for personal attacks, he said evasion relies on luck, which is true, but you would be lying or sorely mistaken to say, all those things I brought up don't as well. If you'd like to insult me for applying the logic of "Since it relies on luck; it has no place in the metagame" to those things, then you are concurrently sarcastically insulting smogon, since it's the exact same reasoning.

And the point of bringing up prankster sableye wasn't to say it always 100% of the time will win you a game against a mega kangaskhan, it was to point out that Dark Azelfs claim that nothing could put a will o wisp onto Kangaskhan before it could move, and simultaneously take hits from it. Sableye meets both those criterion, and disproves what he said.

And I admit that analogy wasn't great, but if I would like to see your reasoning behind defending the claim that smogon doesn't try and dictate how everyone plays, because that - would be an interesting read.

Obligatory humorous image to offset intense debate

I'm sorry if you felt that I was personally attacking you. No, I don't intend that. I'm just trying to get a point across and that felt the perfect way of doing it.

Polar Spectrum said:

Well hey now, no need for personal attacks, he said evasion relies on luck, which is true, but you would be lying or sorely mistaken to say, all those things I brought up don't as well. If you'd like to insult me for applying the logic of "Since it relies on luck; it has no place in the metagame" to those things, then you are concurrently sarcastically insulting smogon, since it's the exact same reasoning.

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You seem very adamant about your opinion. I guess the only thing I can say is: luck is something that cannot be 100% removed from a Pokemon battle. In no way did I mean to insult you for your previous post. I'm sorry you feel that way.

And the point of bringing up prankster sableye wasn't to say it always 100% of the time will win you a game against a mega kangaskhan, it was to point out that Dark Azelfs claim that nothing could put a will o wisp onto Kangaskhan before it could move, and simultaneously take hits from it. Sableye meets both those criterion, and disproves what he said.

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I get that but since we're talking about battling, I applied your suggestion in a battle scenario.

And I admit that analogy wasn't great, but if I would like to see your reasoning behind defending the claim that smogon doesn't try and dictate how everyone plays, because that - would be an interesting read.

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Honestly, I'd rather not because you're just going to post a counter response that takes it to the extremes. Simply put, the Smogon community is telling how the people who belongs in/conforms to the the Smogon community how to play. People outside of that group are free to do whatever they want (which, ironically, is trying to poke fun at Smogon for doing what they think is the best).

Zeffy said:

I'm sorry if you felt that I was personally attacking you. No, I don't intend that. I'm just trying to get a point across and that felt the perfect way of doing it.

You seem very adamant about your opinion. I guess the only thing I can say is: luck is something that cannot be 100% removed from a Pokemon battle. In no way did I mean to insult you for your previous post. I'm sorry you feel that way.

I get that but since we're talking about battling, I applied your suggestion in a battle scenario.


Honestly, I'd rather not because you're just going to post a counter response that takes it to the extremes. Simply put, the Smogon community is telling how the people who belongs in/conforms to the the Smogon community how to play. People outside of that group are free to do whatever they want (which, ironically, is trying to poke fun at Smogon for doing what they think is the best).

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It's cool, heated debates and all that.

And I agree with you, that luck cannot be completely removed from a pokemon game. There's no feasible solution trying to escape that fact, which is the base of my argument against / issue with smogon. It's something that's irrefutably part of the game, that they selectively remove instances of based on their own standards of what they want to deal with.

The sableye thing seems like it's done with, annnd that's fine about not posting that other thing, with the stuff. There's been a lot of srs bsns back and forth in the last page or two :U How about we just go back to battling and whatnot

Y'all think Mega Lopunny's really gonna be the anti-Aegislash in ORAS?

Look, Smogon doesn't "try" to dictate the tiers. It doesn't dictate anything except its own server's tiers (which I feel it should be allowed to do, no?). The reason you're viewing it as controlling everyone is because everyone tends to agree that it is the best source for competitive battling. People will use reliable information (rooted in a high sample size thanks to its inherent popularity) over a small, isolated source of information (i.e. the PC server itself).

Compare it to the way researchers go about their research. One of the most important factors when figuring out the reliability of information is sample size. If Smogon has a huge sample size, due to its large player base, how can we argue with simple, hard facts? It doesn't make sense, from the competitive community's viewpoint (in general), to go against what happens to be the raw data. If something is broken, the large player base will discover it, abuse it while it's around, and the top tier battlers will collectively agree (through suspects tests) that something is too powerful or centralizing and should be removed.

I understand you're worried that the high frequency of bans seems irrational, but Gamefreak as a company does not care about the competitive environment. The simple addition of Megas proves this. Nintendo is also heavily against the idea of competitive gaming for their games (as proven by the Smash Bros. huge esport following but no official tournaments run by Nintendo. In fact, Nintendo would occasionally shut them down because they didn't want their game being played that way). They don't care about competitive one bit, and as a result we, as a community, need to figure out what's strong, what's not, and what should be removed to create a healthier metagame. That is why Smogon is so influential. It has the numbers to prove what's strong, what's not, and what should be removed.

The point of this post, although I side-tracked drastically, isn't to convince you to use Smogon. You've made your choice, and that's fine. Everyone can make their own choices on who they should follow (or not follow anyone!) in terms of competitive tiers, and nobody is stopping you. I just want everyone here arguing that Smogon is bad to understand why it's NOT. You can't argue with raw data, it's ****ing scientific. Literally as scientific as pokemon can be.

Also the reason evasion is a clause is because it's luck-based. I understand other moves are, such as you mentioned. Evasion is different however because it can completely destroy a team that happens to not run Roar / Whirlwind / Haze. A pokemon with any kind of evasion begins to become a pseudo-tank REGARDLESS of its stats. I encourage you to try to fight a team that runs pokemon with Minimize / Double Team and tell me that this "random" effect isn't drastically stronger than the other random effects (such as crit / burn / paralysis / etc).

EDIT: In case I get called on it, I understand that Nintendo is trying to take Smash into a competitive direction at this point (having an MMR and whatnot in the new one). I'm saying they've never been a fan of competitive gaming in the past and actively try to stop it in some cases (perhaps Megas being one of their attempts).

DOUBLE EDIT:

Mega Lopunny may be able to deal with Aegislash, I mean Scrappy helps it out a lot. I'd need to see its stats first though. I'm interested in seeing where it ends up that's for sure.

.Aero said:

Mega Lopunny may be able to deal with Aegislash, I mean Scrappy helps it out a lot. I'd need to see its stats first though. I'm interested in seeing where it ends up that's for sure.

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I want to believe it'll handle Aegislash, but at the same time - it's still a physical hitter, so King's Shield is a threat to its offensive capabilities, and it's still Normal / Fighting, which means while it's immune to Shadow Sneak / Shadow Ball, Sacred Sword sets of Aegi will still be threatening to M-Lopunny. Not to mention, Lopunny's newest and greatest threat to Aegi, the Scrappy High Jump Kick - still can't hit through that Kings Sheild or anyone else's protect. If you missed a call with M Lopunny, assuming you're running High Jump Kick, that's half your HP. And it does nnnnot have reliable recovery, especially with the balance of megas meaning they can't have a held item in leftovers, sitrus berry, shell bell, or even chesto to do that rest-o.

If there were a scrappy special attacker, with say aura sphere or something - then I'd be more confident it'd scare the sword.

Yeah, I don't think that Mega Loppunny can be a true counter to Aegislash. Not all Aegislashes run Sacred Sword, but it still can hurt it with its other moves like Gyro Ball and Iron Head. It'll probably still be kinda frail too, so it won't wanna switch into that, not mention King's Shield and Shield Form's great bulk. It might make a good check, though does it get any other Fighting attacks other than High Jump Kick?

*still sad that Mega Mawile is gone*

There are basically two different play styles which you have to consider while teambuilding: offense and stall (+ballance being a combination of the two)

Right now the metagame is as offensive as can be.

What have Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Lucario, Mega Mawile, Mega Gengar, Aegislash and a lot of others in common? They can break through stall teams like you wouldn't believe it.

So if stall doesn't cut it, how do you beat all these powerful Pokemon? Well, you try to overpower them using even stronger Pokemon.

Now, you could argue since stall is rare these days, that all the banned Pokemon could be unbanned, if it wasn't for their incredible combination of stats/abilities/move sets. They are more reliable to get the job done, than most of the other Pokemon. In order to beat them you are forced to use one of those and their dedicated counters (which there aren't too many), limiting your options in teambuilding even further. Banning these metagame defining threads can only help to balance everything out freeing teamslots and thus allowing other options to shine. The more offensive threads go, the more defensive threads will get their chance to be used. In a "perfectly" balanced metagame every playstyle has the same chance of success and a perfectly ballanced metagame is what the Smogon community is trying to create. Of course a perfect metagame isn't possible, but that doesn't mean it has to be centralised to one side or the other.

Since Mega Evolution is a new mechanic there's not much you can do about it until GF introduces enough methods to balance them out, like giving access to more defensice ones, which they seem to try in ORAS. But it'll probably take a couple of more games, untill Megas are integrated enough to not be metagame defining anymore.

I would like to refute Aero's argument that megas are proof that Nintendo doesn't care about competitive by pointing out that Nintendo isn't Game Freak, they're pretty balanced in doubles and that TPCi are the ones who run the competitive portion of it and Nintendo has zero representation there (that I know of).

Haha, maybe Gamefreak cares more about doubles!

Griffinbane said:

I would like to refute Aero's argument that megas are proof that Nintendo doesn't care about competitive by pointing out that Nintendo isn't Game Freak, they're pretty balanced in doubles and that TPCi are the ones who run the competitive portion of it and Nintendo has zero representation there (that I know of).

Haha, maybe Gamefreak cares more about doubles!

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Hah you perceptive genius you; you've figured it out.

But only to touch on this for a second again... GF / TPCI are far more meta aware than people give them credit for. That's why they use doubles for tourneys. That's why they set certain megas up the way they did. That's why to them the megas aren't broken. Because they're not, outside the one way of playing that makes them "broken". Watch the world championships. Does anything there look "broken"? Did the two competitors in the finals have copy paste teams with 4/6 Pokemon in common? Why was there no mega mawile or gengar in that final match? (If there was actually a technical reason, I missed it and apologize for this poorly researched point) There was a mega lucario ... Which ... Died on the first turn without getting a KO, but a Pachirisu that happened to work very well with the winner's team, enough to greatly aid him in winning both matches. But guess who doesn't like doublesssss

Moving on from that though... Lopunny's greatest assets were already it's defenses and speed, it'll probably take a flash cannon, maybe 2- but there's no denying one fighting stab from lopunny will KO in bade form.

Whoever asked about it's other fighting stabs, it also gets regular jump kick... But... Why that over high jump kick :I

Polar Spectrum said:

Hah you perceptive genius you; you've figured it out.

But only to touch on this for a second again... GF / TPCI are far more meta aware than people give them credit for. That's why they use doubles for tourneys. That's why they set certain megas up the way they did. That's why to them the megas aren't broken. Because they're not, outside the one way of playing that makes them "broken". Watch the world championships. Does anything there look "broken"? Did the two competitors in the finals have copy paste teams with 4/6 Pokemon in common? Why was there no mega mawile or gengar in that final match? (If there was actually a technical reason, I missed it and apologize for this poorly researched point) There was a mega lucario ... Which ... Died on the first turn without getting a KO, but a Pachirisu that happened to work very well with the winner's team, enough to greatly aid him in winning both matches. But guess who doesn't like doublesssss

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I'd be nice if they tried to keep us singles players in mind too.....

Moving on from that though... Lopunny's greatest assets were already it's defenses and speed, it'll probably take a flash cannon, maybe 2- but there's no denying one fighting stab from lopunny will KO in bade form.

Whoever asked about it's other fighting stabs, it also gets regular jump kick... But... Why that over high jump kick :I

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It's defenses are a little better than I thought, though I'm still not sure if it wants to eat attacks from the Blade form. It was me who asked about Lopunny's Fighting attacks, and apparently in addition to the jump kicks, it also gets stuff like Sky Uppercut, Focus Miss, Low Sweep, Focus Punch, and Power Up Punch. Depending on its boost to Attack, those might be enough for it.

I'm not supporting you, Polar. I'm just refuting Aero's statement there. As far as I'm concerned, both sides are taking it to extremes. I look at Smogon bans as a source of minor amusement, then I just waddle along. It doesn't affect me, I understand how they're determining bans, and I just move along. I'm a VGC player, after all. There's no point in me arguing against Smogon. That's like me arguing against singles.

Zekrom said:

I'd be nice if they tried to keep us singles players in mind too.....


It's defenses are a little better than I thought, though I'm still not sure if it wants to eat attacks from the Blade form. It was me who asked about Lopunny's Fighting attacks, and apparently in addition to the jump kicks, it also gets stuff like Sky Uppercut, Focus Miss, Low Sweep, Focus Punch, and Power Up Punch. Depending on its boost to Attack, those might be enough for it.

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Yeah, I don't have a response for that really :1 it would be nice if they considered everybody, but they do seem to have picked a pony with the direction they're taking things. All I can say, is mega venusaur, blastoise, scizor and Pinsir seem to work pretty well without being considered cheap in singesss

Mmm in my phone using haste and sleep deprivation, I forgot about focus miss lol and I'm thinking, after you pointed that out, what if they take it mega lucarios direction? Increase both it's attack and sp atk significantly, and the speed just a bit? That could work even better for lopunny since it's already got better defenses before mega-ing, and with the scrappy focus blast it could threaten ageislash without worrying about making a call to miss a high jump kick, or touch a kings shield.

Anyone remember Gamefreak's first attempt to incorporate doubles into play as the main method of play? It occurred on The Cube...Gamecube, that is...

Anyone care to look up the comments and opinions on that gameplay?

Griffinbane said:

I'm not supporting you, Polar. I'm just refuting Aero's statement there. As far as I'm concerned, both sides are taking it to extremes. I look at Smogon bans as a source of minor amusement, then I just waddle along. It doesn't affect me, I understand how they're determining bans, and I just move along. I'm a VGC player, after all. There's no point in me arguing against Smogon. That's like me arguing against singles.

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Heh don't worry, I didn't misinterpret your post as 'supporting' or even agreeing with anything I said. I liked your post and responded the way I did because I'm glad someone besides myself brought the format difference up. I'm already at odds with probably; 90% plus of whomever will read / participate in this thread due to my lack of faith in the smog of the cards. Myself being the one to point out the lack of imbalance in gameplay surrounding all the megas outside the format the vast majority of smogon uses, miiiight've been too much lol.

But yeah, mega lopunny. Not just good for anti-aegi, gonna hit that Sableye and spiritomb pretty hard too. Not to mention even though Sableye without the mega has prankster will o wisp, neither has kings shield. Id honestly love to see a mixed attacker mega lopunny.

Griffinbane said:

I would like to refute Aero's argument that megas are proof that Nintendo doesn't care about competitive by pointing out that Nintendo isn't Game Freak, they're pretty balanced in doubles and that TPCi are the ones who run the competitive portion of it and Nintendo has zero representation there (that I know of).

Haha, maybe Gamefreak cares more about doubles!

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Griffinbane said:

I'm not supporting you, Polar. I'm just refuting Aero's statement there. As far as I'm concerned, both sides are taking it to extremes. I look at Smogon bans as a source of minor amusement, then I just waddle along. It doesn't affect me, I understand how they're determining bans, and I just move along. I'm a VGC player, after all. There's no point in me arguing against Smogon. That's like me arguing against singles.

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I'd like to state the my claim that Megas "prove" gamefreak / Nintendo don't care is quite an overstatement used for effect. I understand the misunderstanding, but you can't deny that Nintendo isn't shy of trying to ruin competitive play of their games. I'm not saying Mega ARE proof, it's just compelling evidence.

And I mean, double may be more balanced than singles, but singles is the most popular, is it not? If Nintendo was aware of this, then they would capitalize on the most popular playstyle and make it as balanced as they could if they actually cared about competitive and its health.