• Our software update is now concluded. You will need to reset your password to log in. In order to do this, you will have to click "Log in" in the top right corner and then "Forgot your password?".
  • Forum moderator applications are now open! Click here for details.
  • Welcome to PokéCommunity! Register now and join one of the best fan communities on the 'net to talk Pokémon and more! We are not affiliated with The Pokémon Company or Nintendo.

Christians vs. Atheists.

Status
Not open for further replies.
14
Posts
9
Years
  • Age 34
  • Seen May 1, 2015
I don't see the bible as a holy book because it was written by guys or a guy for all we know who could have made everything up. This doesn't mean that I don't believe there is a god though. The problem that I have seen lately is that Christians use there "beliefs" to justify their poor behavior towards others who don't think like them. Everyone that i know that goes to church or is a "die hard" Christian can be a real jerk to others for not agreeing with how they think religion should be.
 

ArcanineWithABow

Cutie Pup
17
Posts
9
Years
  • Age 34
  • Seen Jan 6, 2015
First of all, I am Christian...usually I stay out of discussions like this but this seems civil and non-bashing.

First of all, as a Christian, you are supposed to treat everyone with love and like you want to be treated. Jesus did not come up to anyone and scream in their faces and tell them they are going to Hell. Instead, he preached love, he fed people, he took people in...screaming is no way to get someone to change or convert. It's all about your actions and what someone sees you doing.

I can't stand the fake Christian either...like Westboro...using God's name to spread hate, instead of doing stuff how Jesus would want them to. You also can't go around stealing, killing, having premarital "relations", twerking in the club, and all that, then go around saying you are Christian...no one is gonna listen to you.

There are also plenty of Athiest who treats Christians like crap. I been in the situation before, I say I am Christian and Athiests would scream, tell me to eff off, and how they hate me, and stuff, for simply saying I am a Christian...and lord...let me say "Bless you" if someone sneezes...it's like any mention of God just burns them. Some Athiests I just believe they are Anti-Christian rather than Anti-Religion.

I am just the kind of person who just believes you are whoever you are. I'll say I am Christian if ask and say what I believe, and I live by it and today people say I am boring because I am holding off till marriage, I don't drink, party, and do all what other normal 25 yr olds do today (simply because I don't enjoy doing that kind of stuff). I am not also going to convert you...but don't get offended about my beliefs either, cause they are just my beliefs--everyone's beliefs aren't going to always be non-offensive to you. People are going to believe what they are going to believe.

About the gay marriage thing...I really don't know. I am only against it due to my religious beliefs...but if they do end up being allowed to marry, oh well...everyone has to live their lives for themselves and their family, not for everyone else. But I don't believe gays go to hell. The only unforgivable sin is Blasphemy against God. Plus I personally know gays...I got a cousin who just came out, and when he came out, we were like "It's about time" because I think we knew way before he did.

We love him, accept him, and want him to find happiness. If he brings home a man, well we'll accept them...that's our cousin/nephew/son, etc.
 
Last edited:
26
Posts
9
Years
  • Age 29
  • Seen Oct 23, 2023
Why do you refuse to accept others' beliefs but bash those who refuse to accepts yours?
Do to others as you would have them do to you. (Luke 6:31) < oops


Do you think that Atheists are immoral due to their lack of faith in God?
If yes: What makes you think so?


Do you believe in evolution?
Explain why either way.


Would homosexuals still end up in Hell even if they were devoted Christians during their lifetime on Earth?
✓Adam and Eve ✘Adam and Steve dur hurr


Wel i don't really care what religious path people choose. One of my best friends is aethist and i am Christian. I don't think they are immoral or that homesexuality is wrong, again i know a few people like that. I do believe in evolution as there really is no reason preventing both from coexisting. Even the pope from what i heard is saying he believes in it. And i don't think homosexual people would end up in hell if they stay true to Christian beliefs, I believe the modern world has just misinterpretarated the bible's message. I believe you aare free to love whoever and would not be shunned in the afterife.
 

ArcanineWithABow

Cutie Pup
17
Posts
9
Years
  • Age 34
  • Seen Jan 6, 2015
Wel i don't really care what religious path people choose. One of my best friends is aethist and i am Christian. I don't think they are immoral or that homesexuality is wrong, again i know a few people like that. I do believe in evolution as there really is no reason preventing both from coexisting. Even the pope from what i heard is saying he believes in it. And i don't think homosexual people would end up in hell if they stay true to Christian beliefs, I believe the modern world has just misinterpretarated the bible's message. I believe you aare free to love whoever and would not be shunned in the afterife.

Yeah I do agree...there is a lot of misunderstanding of Christian beliefs going on. Like in this thread, some people think that we Christians can kill a person each day, but as long as we go to church and say "God forgive me", everything is all good.

That is not the case. We have to be sincere in our hearts and want to truly stop the wrongdoing we are doing. That's like going to our parents after having an argument, apologizing, then you hurt their feelings over and over...or like a serial wife beater, apologizing to his wife.

You'll have to be truly sorry with God too in order to truly get forgiveness. It isn't no "meh, God will forgive me"...so I am going to go rob this store and shoot anyone who resists.

Secondly, I saw something earlier about what if an african who lives in a place deep in the jungle and undiscovered, that he dies and he never heard of God...does he go to Hell? Well I know children, no matter if they are athiest, etc do not go to Hell...they are only children. But I think an adult who had never heard of God, did not have a chance to even reject God, I don't believe they go to Hell. What I have learned is that when you die, on judgement day, God casts you off only if you rejected him/ didn't accept him in life.

I am not trying to do a debate or anything...but I always hear, "If God was real, there'd be no murder or wrongdoing"..."Why do bad stuff happen to us?" This is just my two cents:

The truth was there was no sin until Adam and Eve ate the apple. But outside of all that tho...

If God was overprotective and stopped you every time you wanted to do wrong or wanted to go somewhere but something bad was going to happen, I think those same people would also be mad that God is over protective, won't let them make mistakes, and won't let them do anything.

Just like people get when their parents are smothering them or if a spouse doesn't want the other spouse to go somewhere he/she wants to do cause of a "bad feeling in their gut".

Just like in games like The Sims, where people can actually "play God"...they don't want their Sims floating around in a plastic bubble, lol, most people want their Sims to do stuff, make mistakes, and live their lives--basically choose their own path. But at the end of our lives, we just believe that you pay for what you do, you'll get judged.

Again, this is just my own two cents and nothing more.
 

twocows

The not-so-black cat of ill omen
4,307
Posts
15
Years
aren't you doing the exact same thing as you purport Christians are doing to Atheists when you write things like "Why do you refuse to accept others' beliefs but bash those who refuse to accepts yours?" "This is a discussion about Christians and they way they treat Atheists like scum, if you haven't caught on yet."

then I read that you wrote "I am only refering to the type of Christians who do that kind of ****, so hold your horses, dear keyboard warriors, as I am not talking about every single Christian in existence." oops. but STILL. my point is that there are plenty of absolutely disgustingly insufferable atheists online than there are annoying Christians that try to shove their beliefs down your throat. take that fat guy with the goatee who does awful terrible EVIL vlogs (he has the word atheist in his name... TheAmazingAtheist maybe? something like that). honestly, I think atheists who flaunt their beliefs are worse than Christians flaunting their beliefs, because atheists frequently get toxic and resort to flaming whereas Christians tend to more gentle, I guess. as far as where my belief stands, I have no idea. I was raised Catholic and at this point I have no idea where I stand.

and, when you say that you've been the victim of many a Christian attempting to "save you," think of how many Christians are absolutely destroyed every time they so much as imply that they're thinking a certain way because of their Christian beliefs. this happens almost every time their religion is brought up in an argument on the internet, or at least that's what it's looked like during my internet tenure.
Largely agree with this, though I don't really follow YouTube drama so I wouldn't know anything about that.

On the other hand,

What I mean is that a single sin committed means you can't get into Heaven without Jesus. For example , if I lie, I'm not worthy of Heaven, and that's why Jesus died on the cross (to save us). I hope I'm explaining this well.

If I said evolution isn't true because the Bible, and the Bible is true because the Bible, that is a circular argument and ultimately futile. However, that only applies if I base my whole argument on it. You may be surprised, but the Bible and science go together very well. Secondly, the Bible predicts exactly what would happen hundreds, sometimes thousands of years prior to said event. Also, you may know the story of Jericho? It's when the Isrealites walked around the city with trumpets and they toppled over the walls. Archeological evidence proves this. I would continue on to the more scientific evidence and state more examples of the predictions, but I don't have the time right now. If you have questions, I can answer them later and continue what I was saying.
1.%20smile.gif
So how does that disprove evolution? The Bible was written by people who lived in the times, of course it's going to be largely historically accurate when it comes to those times (though obviously it is colored by their perception of events). That's irrelevant to the question of evolution because evolution is something that happened long before the people who wrote the Bible even existed.
 

Nyro

The Bug Master
63
Posts
9
Years
I personally do not know any Christians who act in the way you describe. Most of the Christians I know are pretty tolerant people and are actually not very preachy at all. Matter of fact outside of historical events such as the crusades and the inquisition the only "BAD" Christians I hear about are those fanatics that protest at military returns and funerals and natural disasters. THOSE guys ARE NOT and I reapeat ARE NOT Christian, they are a cult of twisted maniacs.

On another note I saw someone say that one sins gets you a one way ticket to hell. That is absolutely false according to what I know most churches do a prayer for the admission of sins in which you ask for forgiveness and are supposed to be forgiven if you are TRULY sorry.

These two things alone show that people really do not understand Christianity but instead use their own prejudice and views to put ALL people who say they believe in a "God" in the same boat. This is the same type of issue we see in modern day racism where we put all people of one color in a bubble and say "they are all the same".
 
Last edited:

Imafroggy

King
110
Posts
10
Years
Why do you refuse to accept others' beliefs but bash those who refuse to accepts yours?
I accept everyones beliefs. This isn't some sort of echo chamber where only my opinion matters. EVERYONE's opinion and lifestyle matters. I don't appreciate (goes for you too OP) the snarky and holier than thou attitudes that many Atheists seem to have. I understand you are annoyed with some Christians behavior, but if you assume that all of them are like that, I'm going to assume that all Atheists are pretentious middle school ~ college students with a chip on their shoulder. But you know what they say assuming, it makes an ASS out of U and ME.

Do you think that Atheists are immoral due to their lack of faith in God
No, of course not. Anyone can choose to believe in whatever they want. They can also refuse to believe anything they don't feel love for or have no interest in, etc.

Do you believe in evolution?
Yes I do. But I also believe in God.

Would homosexuals still end up in Hell even if they were devoted Christians during their lifetime on Earth?
Personally, no. Because you should never tell a person who they're supposed to love. If a man and a man or a woman and a woman are in love, there's no reason so stop them from going a step further in their relationship. I have gay and lesbian friends and they're some of the nicest people I've ever met on this planet! Remember that the Christian that is damning you to hell for being homosexual is also going to hell for judging people. Only God is allowed to judge you. But one little comment, specifically for gay and lesbian people... your sexuality doesn't define you. Your personality shouldn't be based around your sexuality. You have a personality that isn't named gay, or lesbian. Are you nice? Snarky? Polite? That's one thing that kind of annoyed me with gay and lesbian people. I'm straight, I don't have to post it everywhere. (Except for now I just posted it...) I'll accept you and still befriend you, but if being gay or lesbian is your sole personality trait then... smh.
 

Chocolate™

Awesome Dragon
666
Posts
12
Years
Honestly, stuff like me really pisses me off. I'm neither a Christian nor an Atheist. I'm a Hindu (go look it up somewhere) and things like this are just pieces of sh*t. I have a ton of Christian and Atheistic friends and their no different. And what the hell does 'Christians vs Atheists' mean? I mean honestly, that makes it sound like their two sides who are battling. All religions preach the same thing - 'Moral Values' It's the extremists that do stuff like persecution in all religions. No matter what there will always be some people, let them Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and Jews who randomly invent rules that ignore everything their religions thought them. Just because of the Taliban, all Muslims aren't evil terrorists. Most of them are really nice.

Why do you refuse to accept others' beliefs but bash those who refuse to accepts yours?
Do to others as you would have them do to you. (Luke 6:31) < oops

I've considered all of those things and no I don't go around preaching.

Do you think that Atheists are immoral due to their lack of faith in God?
If yes: What makes you think so?

No. Just because you don't worship a God, doesn't mean that you lose a sense of values. There's always your soul, which no matter what you say exists.

Do you believe in evolution?
Explain why either way.

Definitely. My religion does support the idea of evolution and I think 99% of all guys who are Hindus support evolution.

Would homosexuals still end up in Hell even if they were devoted Christians during their lifetime on Earth?
Adam and Eve Adam and Steve dur hurr

I don't give a damn about whether a person is gay or not. Personally I don't know any openly gay people but being gay doesn't mean your worse or anything. I mean look at Neil Patrick Harris, he's awesome and hardly anybody cares that he's gay. The whole reason that thing was made was because people had to reproduce and gay people couldn't do that. And remember the bible was written down by man. The holy books of multiple religions never preach to bomb places or shout at other people, it's just mankind that misinterprets it that way.
 

Lucky#13

Lucky Member
106
Posts
9
Years
"You chastise those who would take the old testament literally" - Yes. You only have to read the book to find out why. (Just to scratch the surface: Leviticus 24:16, Deuteronomy 21:18-21, 2 Kings 2:23-24, Hosea 13:16)
"yet you also claim it to be wrong for a christian to acknowledge that most of the bible is not meant to be taken literally and as such chose not to follow much of the old testament" - Yes. At least according to what the Bible says. (e.g. Matthew 4:4 - But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.)

Keep in mind that I'm an atheist, and my "opinion" is really what the Christians have to do as I have stated above: I don't actually believe in the Bible as the word of God.

Oh, I see what you mean. Actually this is an interesting point. Some people, myself included, don't believe that very much of the the Bible is literally God's spoken word. I don't believe much of the Bible is even his written word. Aside from the words of Jesus. This leads into areas where denominations, again, disagree. Some of these topics we have discussed are constantly up for debate.

And I have been giving you my opinions. I've also been trying to present a few other opinions of which I'm aware.

Chocolate said:
Honestly, stuff like me really pisses me off. I'm neither a Christian nor an Atheist. I'm a Hindu (go look it up somewhere) and things like this are just pieces of sh*t. I have a ton of Christian and Atheistic friends and their no different. And what the hell does 'Christians vs Atheists' mean? I mean honestly, that makes it sound like their two sides who are battling. All religions preach the same thing - 'Moral Values' It's the extremists that do stuff like persecution in all religions. No matter what there will always be some people, let them Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and Jews who randomly invent rules that ignore everything their religions thought them. Just because of the Taliban, all Muslims aren't evil terrorists. Most of them are really nice.

This

Chocolate said:
And remember the bible was written down by man. The holy books of multiple religions never preach to bomb places or shout at other people, it's just mankind that misinterprets it that way.

And this.
 
11
Posts
9
Years
  • Age 33
  • Seen Feb 17, 2017
I'm a bit of a Christian. I don't really know how much so, but if you analyzed me and compared me to a template of what a "Christian" is, I guess I would tick a lot of the boxes, although most likely not all of them.

It's funny though because my step dad is a hardcore Christian and so are his parents and a lot of his family, but when I was growing up I used to despise his way of thinking and me and my mates even used to make fun of him in private, calling him a bible basher and all sorts of stuff.

Then when I was about 18 and going through some stuff in life, a few situations arose where people I knew where talking about praying to God and all that kind of stuff, and I was in such a deep hole at the time I just reasoned with myself that I should try praying because what harm can it do?

I tried praying and asking for help and almost instantly things started to change. Coincidence? Maybe. But that was only the beginning.

From then on, I had many epiphanies and experiences that made me really deeply believe in God and I don't think I will ever be able to let go of my faith.

Usually I am a very logical person and find gray area subjects very difficult to wrap my head around, as I am an obsessively deep thinker but the things that have happened to me and the way my life has played out, I really truly believe in God just from pure experience, even if I sometimes question the logic behind it.

Since the start of my journey I have totally changed as a person and become much more peaceful, calm and accepting of people. It's as if I feel some kind of guidance in my life and that somehow when I ask for help and do good things everything works out.
It's like I can feel something pushing me in the right direction and guiding me on the right path and that inner guidance is possibly God?

I don't really subscribe to the views of any churches I've been to and their rigidity. I think there can be mistakes in books such as the Bible although I do read it. But our own inner selves can find peace and tranquility within and also this inner self and inner guidance can lead us to a way of acceptance and understanding, just as is it preached by Jesus in the bible, so to me it is more about listening to within and growing as an individual, rather than rigidly following the rules of a book or teachings in a church.
 

RivalGator

I hate them all.
777
Posts
14
Years
Okay, here:

1.) Why do you refuse to accept others' beliefs but bash those who refuse to accepts yours?

Don't be fooled. Most of the Christians you hear about get on the news or are well known around your town because they are radical. In most cases, such as the Westboro Baptist Church and people who make Facebook accounts and post things such as 'Pitbulls are non-Christian dogs!' or 'Cats are soulless and EVIL' yada yada, they're actually cults disguised under the Christian name to get followers and attention.

Christianity, if done right, is supposed to be about love and acceptance. Sure, Christians can be a little more innocent than other people, but it makes sense. They don't believe in doing any kind of bad, steering away from sinning. They have their faults at times, sure, but they aren't supposed to, nor do they wish to have, the bad reputation that extremists have given them.

Do you think that Atheists are immoral due to their lack of faith in God?

When I was a child, I would have been taught to say yes. But now, I do not believe so. Raised as a Christian, I was taught to believe that if you do not believe in God, you will go to Hell. In honesty, I hate following a God like that, and would rather go anywhere but to him, because that kind of God made him sound like a dictator more than a loving father, which is what Christians want him to be. I believe that an Atheist who is a hero and helps people will go to Heaven just as much as the next guy who is Christian and lives his life well. I believe you can believe in God and be a horrible pedophile or murderer and he will still send you to hell as punishment.

Do you believe in evolution?

I really don't see why creation and evolution can't go hand in hand. I mean, if people wanted God to create the earth THAT badly, then why not say he created the earth and allowed for evolution? I believe in evolution, but either way, it doesn't make much of a difference to me.

Would homosexuals still end up in Hell even if they were devoted Christians during their lifetime on Earth?

No, because see... That's like the Atheist argument. I do not believe homosexuality is a sin if you are truly a homosexual. If you're doing it to be happy, that's not a sin. If you're trying to control minds, lead people astray, do all that kind of stuff, then you're 'sinning' and that will send you to Hell. Only people who mean to do evil are sinning. And people can do evil while doing anything. But no, I do not believe homosexuality is a sin, but the Bible was written so long ago that it was when most people believed homosexuality was weird, beating your wives were normal, and all that. Can't live in the past!
 

Corvus of the Black Night

Wild Duck Pokémon
3,416
Posts
15
Years
I personally do not know any Christians who act in the way you describe. Most of the Christians I know are pretty tolerant people and are actually not very preachy at all. Matter of fact outside of historical events such as the crusades and the inquisition the only "BAD" Christians I hear about are those fanatics that protest at military returns and funerals and natural disasters. THOSE guys ARE NOT and I reapeat ARE NOT Christian, they are a cult of twisted maniacs.

On another note I saw someone say that one sins gets you a one way ticket to hell. That is absolutely false according to what I know most churches do a prayer for the admission of sins in which you ask for forgiveness and are supposed to be forgiven if you are TRULY sorry.

These two things alone show that people really do not understand Christianity but instead use their own prejudice and views to put ALL people who say they believe in a "God" in the same boat. This is the same type of issue we see in modern day racism where we put all people of one color in a bubble and say "they are all the same".
As a kid, I encountered a lot of people like that. I grew up in a very conservative area where there was a lot of pressure from the outside to be religious, so if you were living with an agnostic family with no emphasis on religious beliefs whatsoever, it got kind of awkward.

As I got older and got outside of this community though, I realized that they were truly a minority and most certainly not a majority. The best way to deal with people like that is to simply not engage. They're cold set in stone in their beliefs and they don't want to budge outside of proving you wrong. There's no real debate or discussion, it's about "I'm right and you're wrong and since you're wrong you're inherently evil."

Kind of reminds me of the Pokecommunity D&D lol
 

Chrayus

Chrayus is love, Chrayus is life
175
Posts
9
Years
  • Age 24
  • Seen Aug 30, 2015
Note to readers
I am not an extreme Christian
Why do you refuse to accept others' beliefs but bash those who refuse to accepts yours?
I do not bash those who do not accept my beliefs, and I view others beliefs as just important as mine

Do you think that Atheists are immoral due to their lack of faith in God?
No

Do you believe in evolution?
Yes

Would homosexuals still end up in Hell even if they were devoted Christians during their lifetime on Earth?
No
 
10,078
Posts
15
Years
  • Age 32
  • UK
  • Seen Oct 17, 2023
Do you believe in evolution?

I really don't see why creation and evolution can't go hand in hand. I mean, if people wanted God to create the earth THAT badly, then why not say he created the earth and allowed for evolution? I believe in evolution, but either way, it doesn't make much of a difference to me.

Completely agree. As a science teacher who works in a mostly-christian school, I often stress this in lessons. A belief is personal, whereas a scientific theory is supported by evidence - those two things don't necessarily have to be separated. Unfortunately, there are always some families who see God and Evolution as conflicting ideas. Which is sad - the ideas I normally put forward are:

God could have started life, and let it flourish.
God could have started life and guided small changes in organisms over time.
God could have sat back and watched all of this happen spontaneously.

Who knows.
 
4,181
Posts
10
Years
Sorry for the late response but now I got some free time I'll answer.

Oh, I see what you mean. Actually this is an interesting point. Some people, myself included, don't believe that very much of the the Bible is literally God's spoken word. I don't believe much of the Bible is even his written word. Aside from the words of Jesus. This leads into areas where denominations, again, disagree. Some of these topics we have discussed are constantly up for debate.

I see where you're coming from. True, there are tens of thousands of different Christian denominations, but ultimately it's one of the smaller reasons why I gave up my faith in god and Jesus.

And you don't need religion to be a moral person.

Unfortunately, there are always some families who see God and Evolution as conflicting ideas. Which is sad
I believe god and evolution are conflicting ideas, becuase there's substantiated evidence for evolution, while there aren't any for the existence of god. I don't see what's so sad about having that opinion.
 

Corvus of the Black Night

Wild Duck Pokémon
3,416
Posts
15
Years
I believe god and evolution are conflicting ideas, becuase there's substantiated evidence for evolution, while there aren't any for the existence of god. I don't see what's so sad about having that opinion.
So because there's no evidence for a God that means the two ideas are completely incompatible?

Your logic is incorrect. You are implying that because there is no evidence to prove something, that it means it is incompatible with things that have evidence. Essentially, you are claiming the inverse of what religious fundies claim.

The problem with trying to prove the existence of a God is that evidence will never be supernatural, while God, by definition, is supernatural. Ever. All evidence is natural, because it can be observed in the natural world. The only way we can measure something that supersedes nature is if it has an effect on the natural world, but there's no reason why a supernatural object should be inclined to have an effect on the current world, and assuming so would be pretty geocentric, unless you assume that this being does this all the time everywhere (some spiritual models postulate that "god" is the energy that exists in everything, so in a way, you're a part of god).

Ultimately, a non-literal reading of the Bible does not produce readings that are incompatible with evolution. In fact, only a few verses are incompatible in Genesis, a book that, outside of creationist loons, is usually never considered a literal truth and is often not even considered an important text in Christian circles.

A nonreligious example to why your logic fails can be shown with "Last Thursdayism". This is a satirical parody of the creationist argument that god could have made the world with apparent age - if this is true, then he could have easily made it last thursday with apparent age. This argument (and the creationist ideas behind it) suggest that the beginning of the universe's systems are actually set at time = n instead of time = 0. However, as we all know, regardless of this creation, these functions still work, and we can still roll behind the value of n and interpret behind this point, regardless of the actual true age of the universe. The fact that these models still hold up, regardless of when the universe was actually created, shows their value, and their predictive power has already been used.

Thus, this can be removed via Ockham's razor - regardless of whether or not the universe was created 13 billion years ago, 6 thousand years ago, or last week - the creation of the universe with "apparent age" does nothing to disprove the existence of evolution.

But does that actually mean that the universe couldn't have started at any of those points in time? There's no reason why time = n was the start of the universe instead of time = 0. It could have started at any point. However, this point is irrelevant because it doesn't prove or disprove anything. Because many interpretations of God truly have no influence on whether or not evolution could have occurred, it is irrelevant to whether or not God exists. His existence or lack thereof does nothing to prove or disprove evolution, and therefore to claim that they are mutually exclusive concepts is entirely wrong, since the two have no influence on the possibility of the other's existence.

Another consequence is that some very theoretical concepts, such as String Theory, the effects of Planck Length/Time, Loop Quantum Gravity, and microscopic curved dimensions (required for String Theory and M-Theory) are automatically incompatible with ideas that have been proven true, such as electromagnetism. There are physical limitations to "evidence" that we can have to support claims due to the very nature of the universe; however, because these things have extremely useful predictive power, they are still helpful. Perhaps the power in God though isn't in his predictive power, but rather the power that he gives to an individual in the form of spiritual power. It's a nonliteral power that gives people hope and the ability to move forward. It's true that not everyone uses god and his name well, and use things in the Bible and other religious texts to promote bigotry, but to claim that it's bad and useless automatically, and especially claim that such a power is not compatible with evolution, is an incredible

I know that you lost faith in the ability for religion to have any value whatsoever, and that's fine if that's your life. Nobody here is telling you that you have to be religious. I'm not religious, even. However, I have respect for it's philosophical consequences, and that it does not make mutually exclusive conditions against science, despite some people claiming this. It is woefully disrespectful to those who don't erase science in the name of evolution to have their beliefs and the possibility of mutual respect for these two concepts to have this concept be erased for your own inability to understand the existence of its possibility.

Again, you are essentially strawmanning what religious folk believe and claiming that they believe a literal truth. The concepts of the Bible or any religious text do not need to be read literally to have value obtained from them. Literal readers of religious texts are a minority.
 
4,181
Posts
10
Years
So because there's no evidence for a God that means the two ideas are completely incompatible? Your logic is incorrect.
Scientifically, yes.

The problem with trying to prove the existence of a God is that evidence will never be supernatural, while God, by definition, is supernatural. Ever. All evidence is natural, because it can be observed in the natural world. The only way we can measure something that supersedes nature is if it has an effect on the natural world, but there's no reason why a supernatural object should be inclined to have an effect on the current world, and assuming so would be pretty geocentric, unless you assume that this being does this all the time everywhere (some spiritual models postulate that "god" is the energy that exists in everything, so in a way, you're a part of god).
You're correct. And if you want to call that "geocentric" then fair enough, because Earth is just about the only place we live in as we know it.

In fact, only a few verses are incompatible in Genesis, a book that, outside of creationist loons, is usually never considered a literal truth and is often not even considered an important text in Christian circles.
Source needed.

Because many interpretations of God truly have no influence on whether or not evolution could have occurred, it is irrelevant to whether or not God exists. His existence or lack thereof does nothing to prove or disprove evolution, and therefore to claim that they are mutually exclusive concepts is entirely wrong, since the two have no influence on the possibility of the other's existence.
To be fair conflicting might have been a wrong word to use on my part. It would've been better to say that God and evolution do not support nor discredit each other. Which still goes against the thinking in the lines of "God made evolution happen."

Another consequence is that some very theoretical concepts, such as String Theory, the effects of Planck Length/Time, Loop Quantum Gravity, and microscopic curved dimensions (required for String Theory and M-Theory) are automatically incompatible with ideas that have been proven true, such as electromagnetism. There are physical limitations to "evidence" that we can have to support claims due to the very nature of the universe; however, because these things have extremely useful predictive power, they are still helpful.
If new findings that go through rigorous emprical testing and is approved to provide better understanding of the world than the knowledge we have currently, science will replace that knowledge with the new one. Science isn't rigid like religion is.

Perhaps the power in God though isn't in his predictive power, but rather the power that he gives to an individual in the form of spiritual power. It's a nonliteral power that gives people hope and the ability to move forward. It's true that not everyone uses god and his name well, and use things in the Bible and other religious texts to promote bigotry, but to claim that it's bad and useless automatically, and especially claim that such a power is not compatible with evolution, is an incredible
If people are happy with believing their god then that's fine, and if you believe staying faithful helps people live their lives happily then that's perfectly fine as well.

But what does that have to do with evolution?

I know that you lost faith in the ability for religion to have any value whatsoever, and that's fine if that's your life. Nobody here is telling you that you have to be religious. I'm not religious, even. However, I have respect for it's philosophical consequences, and that it does not make mutually exclusive conditions against science, despite some people claiming this. It is woefully disrespectful to those who don't erase science in the name of evolution to have their beliefs and the possibility of mutual respect for these two concepts to have this concept be erased for your own inability to understand the existence of its possibility.

Again, you are essentially strawmanning what religious folk believe and claiming that they believe a literal truth. The concepts of the Bible or any religious text do not need to be read literally to have value obtained from them. Literal readers of religious texts are a minority.
You're assuming that I'm saying religion is useless because it's not compatible with science, which is not what I said. I thought we went over this already.

Even though I agree with few things you said, I think you've missed my overall point. I'm not saying it's impossible to appreciate qualities that religion and science bring at the same time. But when you try to apply religion and god to scientific thinking, that's where I draw the line. (e.g. "I don't know how the universe came to being so god did it").
 

twocows

The not-so-black cat of ill omen
4,307
Posts
15
Years
Aeroblast said:
I believe god and evolution are conflicting ideas, becuase there's substantiated evidence for evolution, while there aren't any for the existence of god. I don't see what's so sad about having that opinion.
The problem is that it doesn't follow logically. The theory of evolution does not preclude the possibility of a higher power, nor does the possibility of a higher power preclude the theory of evolution. For instance, a higher power could have created the cosmos without specifically creating humanity. The fact that one idea is supported by substantial evidence and the other is not is irrelevant to the question of whether they are in conflict; both ideas can be true at the same time, therefore they are not conflicting ideas by definition.

On the other hand, the idea that humans were magicked into existence 6000 years ago by God is in conflict with the theory of evolution because if one happened, the other could not. They're mutually exclusive theories and therefore conflicting by definition.
 

Corvus of the Black Night

Wild Duck Pokémon
3,416
Posts
15
Years
Source needed.

Genesis verses 1:1-2:3 are usually considered the source of conflict.

To be fair conflicting might have been a wrong word to use on my part. It would've been better to say that God and evolution do not support nor discredit each other. Which still goes against the thinking in the lines of "God made evolution happen."
Not really. God can make something happen, but it's not required to do it. You could have made a sandwich, or you could have bought one from the store - even if you buy one from the store that doesn't mean you couldn't have made it.

Your general argument also fails to take into consideration these possibilities.

  • It's entirely possible that the laws created by god at the original state of the universe are what evolution is built on.
  • Because they are not mutually exclusive, there is no reason to claim that there is no way they are incompatable. The only thing that can be stated is that it cannot be proven, and for useful explanations, using Ockam's razor to cut God out of the explanation is likely best to reduce unnecessary complexity. That doesn't mean that it couldn't have happened, it means that it wasn't necessary to happen and is therefore unimportant.

In fact, there are many flexible ways of interpreting many religious texts that are completely compatible with all currently accepted scientific theories, including evolution.

If new findings that go through rigorous emprical testing and is approved to provide better understanding of the world than the knowledge we have currently, science will replace that knowledge with the new one. Science isn't rigid like religion is.
This is not true. Religion is arguably far more flexible than science is, if only because it is a personalized faith to an individual. Religion is extremely individualistic and interpretations of such vary from individual to individual - simply because the same guidelines are followed within communities does not imply that personal interpretations don't exist. Faith is an extremely personal concept.

It is true that in some cultures religious interpretation may be restricted, but the actual religion itself can be interpreted by any individual in infinitesimal ways. Even though they may impose external pressure on individuals to conform, faith itself is infinitely flexible in interpretation. This is why you are able to have extremely laid back Christians who share almost nothing in common with extremely devout Christians.

On the contrary, science, while it evolves in its understanding, is not anywhere near as flexible. You can't "interpret" a scientific fact based on your personal beliefs, unless that "fact" isn't proven yet. The only interpretation is if 1) a model doesn't fit the evidence and it's required to change your model, 2) new evidence suggests previously unexplored possibilities or 3) the current evidence does not fit any current theory and a new one must be created. You can't say that suddenly you feel like gravity should be a repulsive force because you think the world makes more sense that way because gravity being an attractive force is a theory that makes more logical sense.

But what does that have to do with evolution?
It doesn't. It has to do with your logic. It is an example of an extension of your assumption that scientific ideas are incompatible with religion, a statement you have placed in this thread previously. I stated such in the post.

You're assuming that I'm saying religion is useless because it's not compatible with science, which is not what I said. I thought we went over this already.
You did though.

I believe god and evolution are conflicting ideas, becuase there's substantiated evidence for evolution, while there aren't any for the existence of god. I don't see what's so sad about having that opinion.

Yes this isn't exactly "I don't believe that science and god are incompatible", but you literally said that a scientific idea which is the most refuted idea by fundies is incompatible with religion. How is saying that the theory that is most frequently questioned by extremely religious folk conflicts with religion any different than saying that some scientific theories are incompatible with religion?

Jesus the mental gymnastics are strong in this one.

On the other hand, the idea that humans were magicked into existence 6000 years ago by God is in conflict with the theory of evolution because if one happened, the other could not. They're mutually exclusive theories and therefore conflicting by definition.

In fact, the only way this could possibly be true is if the universe started at time = n as opposed to time = 0, but via Ockham's razor this conclusion can be taken out because it doesn't really prove or disprove anything, and cannot even be proven itself.
 
4,181
Posts
10
Years
The problem is that it doesn't follow logically. The theory of evolution does not preclude the possibility of a higher power, nor does the possibility of a higher power preclude the theory of evolution. For instance, a higher power could have created the cosmos without specifically creating humanity. The fact that one idea is supported by substantial evidence and the other is not is irrelevant to the question of whether they are in conflict; both ideas can be true at the same time, therefore they are not conflicting ideas by definition.
I understand.

I do take back the "conflicting" part as admittedly it was a poor choice words on my part, but I still maintain that it's unfounded to conclude that "God made evolution happen," because we haven't found a correlation between God and evolution. (unless God here happens to be God of the Bible, which is not specified anyways)

On the other hand, the idea that humans were magicked into existence 6000 years ago by God is in conflict with the theory of evolution because if one happened, the other could not. They're mutually exclusive theories and therefore conflicting by definition.
Amen. (pardon the expression)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top