Super Smash Bros. Discussion

A NEW CHALLENGER APPROACHES!

Is Dark Pit a straight up clone, or are people exaggerating?

I finally beat master core on 9.0 with Link I use customization but that doesn't matter the only thing I care about is I beat it, that was way too intense, I should probably take a break my heart can't take all this intensity. *faints*

Warsmith said:

A NEW CHALLENGER APPROACHES!

Spoiler:

Hey, is it just me. . .

I've been playing the game for awhile now and still having a Smashing good time, but one thing bugs me. That fairy, Kid Icarus. Him and his cohort seem to have swallowed the game with it's characters, stages, and baddies.

It seems every other trophy I get seems to pertain to a smash run baddie that's based in the Kid Icarus game. Hey, I get it. Kid Icarus is new hip again, but flooding the game with this trash? Potential spoilers to follow. . .

Let's take a tally:

- 3 Kid Icarus Characters
- 1 of these is a clone
- 19 Smash Run enemies
- Kid Icarus is on the box art
- Kid Icarus' voice

Okay, the last one is a gimme but I see this as a problem. Kid Icarus has three games. Three. Just three and one that nobody bought that was on gameboy in '91. So why does his stench permeate the entire game?

The Mario series only has 12 enemies in Smash Run! Metroid has a palsy 4, The Legend of Zelda has only 7 (out of a crap ton of games), Pokemon has 5, Kirby has 9, Sonic and Mega Man both tie at 1 (Mega Man is a top contender with most games on this list: 51), Donkey Kong has two, and even the Ice Climbers have one! So why does Kid Icarus get 19?

Issue 2: Kid Icarus and his dumb dark clone character of crap. Hey guys, sorry. We're dropping the Ice Climbers to bring you a character none of you ever wanted! It's not like you guys ever wanted Ridley, Daisy, any other racer from F-Zero, Mewtwo (I'm still upset about this. **** Lucario and his usurping ass), Arthur (Ghosts/Goblins), King K. Rool, Starwolf (we dropped him too), or any other character you'd rather have in the game other than another clone character. Too bad.

The box art. No Donkey Kong? No Captain Falcon? They put the Pillager and Kid Icarus (Icarus was an idiot by the way /mythology) on the box instead of the entire original cast. That makes sense (it doesn't make sense). In whose mind is saying Kid Icarus has seen enough sales/battles/games to deserve being put on the front cover? Even the Pillager has seen at least 4 games (Gamecube/Wii/DS/3DS).

Kid Icarus is a sham. He took away the Ice Climbers and Starwolf in my mind with their entire truckload of BS no one wanted or called for. Every time he's in game, I make it my mission to annihilate him. You should too, it'll make you feel better over how suck he is.

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I'm gonna take a second to dump all over this right now:

-His name is Pit, not "Kid Icarus". This annoys me. It's like calling Link "Zelda". Stop that.

-Kid Icarus is made by Masahiro Sakurai, who also makes Smash Bros, so what if he wants to promote another series of his? They're his games. Also, he said that many enemies in Smash Run are from Kid Icarus Uprising and Brawl's Subspace Emissary because the models for them were already ready.

-The Ice Climbers were taken out due to limitations on the 3DS. As in, it couldn't handle 4 of them (that's 8 characters on screen) and still maintain a constant framerate. Dark Pit's inclusion had absolutely nothing to do with it, and this extends to the other 2 clones as well. The clones didn't replace any character. If they were taken out, we'd just have 3 less characters in the roster. Clones take less hard work than a full-fledged character, so just be thankful there's 3 more characters to choose from that didn't have to be there. And honestly, I was glad Dark Pit was included. From a Kid Icarus Uprising standpoint, it makes sense for him to be a clone of Pit. And you can't say no one wanted them. I can think of numerous people who wanted Lucina playable and Dr. Mario to come back. And Dark Pit was teased at the end of Palutena's trailer, so if that wasn't enough of a hint that he'd be in the game somehow...

-Look at Melee and Brawl's boxart. Was the "entire original cast" present on either of those? Didn't think so. IMO, it'd be kinda dumb to have the original cast on there and not one newcomer. What will people who are just now hearing about the game think? They take one look at the boxart of the game and go "Oh, same characters as before, nothing new." It's very normal that some people judge a game by its boxart, similar to judging a book by its cover. And someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure that Kid Icarus Uprising sold very well.

So no. Neither Pit nor Dark Pit took away the Ice Climbers, the 3DS just couldn't handle them. I'm unsure about Wolf, but it's already been established that no character in this game is the reason that another isn't playable. That's on the developers. Sorry for sounding a bit rude, but I just get extremely annoyed when people blindly hate on certain characters, believing that they "replaced" another, when that is not the case at all. I'm all for Mewtwo coming back and Ridley being playable, but as far as we know, they're not. Unless the Tower of Smash/4 extra characters rumor is true, then we just have to accept it and appreciate what we do have.

Necrum said:

Is Dark Pit a straight up clone, or are people exaggerating?

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Dark Pit is a clone of Pit in the sense that Ganondorf was a clone of Captain Falcon in Melee. Slightly slower, but slightly stronger. His side-B also has electrical properties. His Final Smash is different from Pit's, working like Zelda/Sheik's Light Arrow.

Misinformation. The only differences between Pit and Dark Pit are their Neutral B, Side B, Final Smash, Forward Tilt and which side of the bed they woke up on. They have the exact same moves with the exact same properties and the exact same stats otherwise. Dark Pit is not faster or slower than Pit.

He's by far the cloniest character in the whole series. Not that it really matters, though. The neutral B difference is enough as it's a huge part of Pit's meta game.

lol, i derped on that. When i said he was slightly slower but slightly stronger, I actually was referring to the neutral B. I should've put it though. xD

It looks like Duck Hunt is getting a reveal trailer soon, based on today's picture of the day at the website. One thing I do wonder is if they'll include Bowser Jr. within that trailer or he'll have a trailer of his own.

Pinkie-Dawn said:

It looks like Duck Hunt is getting a reveal trailer soon, based on today's picture of the day at the website. One thing I do wonder is if they'll include Bowser Jr. within that trailer or he'll have a trailer of his own.

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I can definitely see them both being revealed in Thursday's Direct. Since Duck Hunt Dog and Bowser Jr. both have attacks involving shooting, maybe the trailer would involve them both aiming at Diddy? xD

Also, I found something you guys may find remotely funny:

it occurs to me that when we had the Smash characters contest, Bon Bonne would have fit really well into the game as well, lol.

Bit late for a reveal trailer isn't?

Darkrai Lv.1000 said:

Also, I found something you guys may find remotely funny:

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I'm going to mark "Exclusive Stages", "Epic CGI Trailer", "Wii U Gets a Ton More Than 3DS", "Master Orders and Crazy Orders", and Sakurai on the bingo sheet early just to play safe, because I may not have enough time to watch the whole direct, for I have a scheduled appointment at my university an hour after the direct starts.

Why would they bother with reveal trailers now? The 3DS version of the game is out, we know the whole roster.

Darkrai Lv.1000 said:

I'm gonna take a second to dump all over this right now:

-His name is Pit, not "Kid Icarus". This annoys me. It's like calling Link "Zelda". Stop that.

-The Ice Climbers were taken out due to limitations on the 3DS. As in, it couldn't handle 4 of them (that's 8 characters on screen) and still maintain a constant framerate. Dark Pit's inclusion had absolutely nothing to do with it, and this extends to the other 2 clones as well. The clones didn't replace any character. If they were taken out, we'd just have 3 less characters in the roster. Clones take less hard work than a full-fledged character, so just be thankful there's 3 more characters to choose from that didn't have to be there. And honestly, I was glad Dark Pit was included. From a Kid Icarus Uprising standpoint, it makes sense for him to be a clone of Pit. And you can't say no one wanted them. I can think of numerous people who wanted Lucina playable and Dr. Mario to come back. And Dark Pit was teased at the end of Palutena's trailer, so if that wasn't enough of a hint that he'd be in the game somehow...

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First: Boohoo. Someone doesn't know the name of the flying fruit dingus. I don't care. No one cares, it seems, except you. Well too bad, because this is beneath the Warsmith's notice. I will never care for this character, and I will never apologize for 'annoying' you. I will never bother playing a **** game with **** controls with falsified mythos that I've seen from better games. Heck, I'd rather read Ben-Hur than play Kid Icarus: Uprising. And if you want to nit pick, the original Japanese name isn't even close to Kid Icarus: New Light Mythology: Palutena's Mirror. And let me tell you something, whelp, if I bought the original game for the NES at a garage sale without the booklet, how am I supposed to know who the hell I'm playing as? Surely the fellow named Kid Icarus? So if he's not him, then why the hell name the game Kid Icarus at all? Because he has wings? Icarus plummeted to his death by flying too close to the sun on wings made of wax, just in case you didn't know. And what the hell kind of name is Pit anyway?

Second, the Ice Climbers. Okay, I understand why they were removed from the 3DS. Limitations and what not. But wait, Rosalina and Luma have a similar companionship. So, in essence, there can still be 8 'characters' on the screen at the same time, albeit Luma is considerable smaller. It doesn't take away the fact that there is a constant eight objects on the screen. . . but I'm not a exactly a high-tech computer guy, so what the hell, I probably shouldn't discuss this point further.

The issue I have is that the Ice Climbers are not even on the Wii U version. Perhaps if they had included them on the Wii U version I might not be so upset. Why? Because with an extended amount of time to work on the limitations of the 3DS the Ice Climbers could potentially make their way over to the system. There is still a chance they are going to be on the Wii U but minimal.

Side note: I can blame which character I wish to place the blame on for watering down the game, and right now the only one that does this is Kid Icarus and his band of merry turds.

Technically, Melee's boxart had all the original characters on the box art. . . and Brawl had eleven character spots while the 3DS box art has only 6. . .

And the final smash doesn't matter in competitive play at all. So Kid Icarus' dark clone is closer than any other character in the past games. He moves at the same rate, and even has the same annoying voice. This is utterly unacceptable. Ganondorf moves slower, Toon link has better aerial capabilities, and Dr. Mario prescribes freaking pain! Dark Icarus has a single move that's more powerful. Wow.

Even if he made the Kid Icarus game, I find it wholly flawed to pump a collaboration game chalk full of your own ****. Just for fun: What if Suda 51 had his hands on this? What about Ed Boon? Or Ben Chichoski? No one would play the game if they took control and poured their own series into the game to the point where it out numbered and over shadowed more mainstay characters that generated more revenue and put more into the industry than their own characters.

Tell me: What the hell did Kid Icarus do that was so amazing and so game changing?

Warsmith said:

And the final smash doesn't matter in competitive play at all. So Kid Icarus' dark clone is closer than any other character in the past games. He moves at the same rate, and even has the same annoying voice. This is utterly unacceptable. Ganondorf moves slower, Toon link has better aerial capabilities, and Dr. Mario prescribes freaking pain! Dark Icarus has a single move that's more powerful. Wow.

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I wonder what you think of Lucina then, since she's identical to Marth other than Marth's tipping effect (and appearance and voice).

Even if he made the Kid Icarus game, I find it wholly flawed to pump a collaboration game chalk full of your own ****. Just for fun: What if Suda 51 had his hands on this? What about Ed Boon? Or Ben Chichoski? No one would play the game if they took control and poured their own series into the game to the point where it out numbered and over shadowed more mainstay characters that generated more revenue and put more into the industry than their own characters.

Tell me: What the hell did Kid Icarus do that was so amazing and so game changing?

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I think you could use to simmer down a bit, but I did wanna talk a bit about this. I'm pretty sure that if other people had a hand in this game and shoved their own characters in that people would still play the game. It might drive away some people, but it would attract others too. And last I checked, Kid Icarus has 3 characters in the game: Pit, Dark Pit, and Palutena. Whereas the Mario franchise has 6 reps, Zelda and Pokemon have 5, and Fire Emblem has 4. So I don't think that Kid Icarus is "overshadowing" the other games that generated more money. Though it does has a disproportionate about of Smash Run enemies like you said. I think that they shouldn't have done that either.

But as for why Kid Icarus has a strong representation in the game, it all comes down to money and popularity. while that doesn't apply for some characters (like how Game&Watch hasn't had a game for 20+ years, or how Captain Falcon's been in Smash more than F-Zero), it does apply in some cases. Mario is arguably Nintendo's most popular and profitable franchise, and look which series has the most reps out of all of them. Fire Emblem jumped from almost not having reps at all to having 2 to having 4. For whatever reason, Pit's inclusion in Brawl got the Kid Icarus series a lot of attention, which then prompted them to make Uprising, which did really well in sales. The developers put in more characters from the more popular franchises because they know that will attract people to their games, which means more money in their bank accounts. If the game cover has Mario, Charizard, and Link on it, more people will be like "oh hey I recognize that character I should play this" than if you had Duck Hunt Dog or Ness or ROB on it. They purposely dumped a lot of Kid Icarus into Smash 4 because they knew that people would recognize Pit from Brawl or Uprising and that would entice some people to buy the game.

I really don't know why anyone would be this bothered about a single character inclusion.

Yeesh.

Warsmith said:

stuff

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I'm not going to argue with you man, but just realize that you're extensively hating without much of a valid reason. Like Zekrom said, there's only 3 Kid Icarus reps in the game, while Mario has 7. Being technical and counting game origin, then Dr. Mario and the entire first row bar Game & Watch is full of Mario reps. So that's 9 "Mario" reps, as opposed to 3 from Kid Icarus. So in a sense, they're not really "watering down" the game.

And the thing with Rosalina, I'll clarify: the reason she works is because the Luma doesn't have its own AI, instead simply reacting to your button presses. With the Ice Climbers, Nana had her own AI, which the 3DS couldn't handle alongside 7 others. Include 3D and online with that, and you've got a serious case of lag/frame drop. I'd love to see them return, at least on the Wii U version, but I don't see that happening since Sakurai is dedicated to keeping the rosters on both versions the same.

I guess you got me on the Melee boxart. I just looked on the cover, I didn't think those little rectangles counted. :P

However, I do agree with you that Dark Pit is too "clone-y". I would've loved for them to at least have him use the staff he uses for his Final Smash as his main weapon. I guess it makes sense, since his main weapon in Uprising is his Silver Bow, but he does uses more than that in the game, and it would've been nice to see that. He also fights much differently than Pit when he's fought as a boss, so they could've put some of those moves in. It definitely would've made him less of a blatant duplicate and more of his own character, which in Uprising, he wholeheartedly believes he is.

I would call "Reveal Trailer" a bit of a misnomer. It would be more like a new trailer that happens to feature one of the new characters.

I think it may still count, because perhaps one of the new characters haven't got the proper introduction in the Smash Bros. sites, yet. I have seen 8 revealed secret characters so far (including Lucina, which was at the home page), but not this one.

Zekrom said:

I wonder what you think of Lucina then, since she's identical to Marth other than Marth's tipping effect (and appearance and voice).


I think you could use to simmer down a bit, but I did wanna talk a bit about this. I'm pretty sure that if other people had a hand in this game and shoved their own characters in that people would still play the game. It might drive away some people, but it would attract others too. And last I checked, Kid Icarus has 3 characters in the game: Pit, Dark Pit, and Palutena. Whereas the Mario franchise has 6 reps, Zelda and Pokemon have 5, and Fire Emblem has 4. So I don't think that Kid Icarus is "overshadowing" the other games that generated more money. Though it does has a disproportionate about of Smash Run enemies like you said. I think that they shouldn't have done that either.

But as for why Kid Icarus has a strong representation in the game, it all comes down to money and popularity. while that doesn't apply for some characters (like how Game&Watch hasn't had a game for 20+ years, or how Captain Falcon's been in Smash more than F-Zero), it does apply in some cases. Mario is arguably Nintendo's most popular and profitable franchise, and look which series has the most reps out of all of them. Fire Emblem jumped from almost not having reps at all to having 2 to having 4. For whatever reason, Pit's inclusion in Brawl got the Kid Icarus series a lot of attention, which then prompted them to make Uprising, which did really well in sales. The developers put in more characters from the more popular franchises because they know that will attract people to their games, which means more money in their bank accounts. If the game cover has Mario, Charizard, and Link on it, more people will be like "oh hey I recognize that character I should play this" than if you had Duck Hunt Dog or Ness or ROB on it. They purposely dumped a lot of Kid Icarus into Smash 4 because they knew that people would recognize Pit from Brawl or Uprising and that would entice some people to buy the game.

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While I agree with you on some points (my simmering down) I must agree to disagree on certain points, such as the money game. Kid Icarus Uprising shipped a total of 1.14 million globally; that's pretty low, all things considered. To compare, Kirby: Triple Deluxe (weird name, but okay) moved 457.7k units earlier this year in just Japan alone. I haven't found the current numbers for the EU and AM sales, but I am confident to say that in just 9 months the Kirby game has outsold the Kid Icarus game, which has been out for around 2 years now. I don't believe it is rational or wise to believe that Kid Icarus will ever become a household name. And while Mario and his crew may have a mass stable of characters, it should be noted that most of them have had their own stand alone games: Luigi, Peach, Yoshi, Wario, etc.

edit: I think Lucina should have been an alternate skin for Marth, much like the Male/Female Wii Fit Trainer, Male/Female Robin and err... the Pikmen guys (sorry, can't remember their names off the top of my head). I believe that copies of the magnitude of Lucina and the Dark Icarus dude perhaps harm the game more than help. Certain characters such as Ganondorf and Captain Falcon are variable enough to be considered their own play styles. Hard hitting and slow? Or fast and furious? While Marth/Lucina are basically the same thing. The playstyle has no notable difference between the two.

You know what makes a fighting game better? LESS Characters. honestly 2 is enough. Choice is important after all. :15:

100% Serious - Lucina and Dark Pit got me excited enough to buy the game, because they represent games that I love. Nothing else matters. This is Smash, a fun place to play as your favorite characters.