Should women be allowed to go topless in public?

PkMnTrainer Yellow said:

Yeah. That's fine, and I think it's legal too, but completely nude is what we're currently on about.

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No not fully nude, just topless.

Rich Boy Rob said:

You make a good case with the ozone layer. The main reason for being topless would be to cool down, but with an ever growing risk of skin cancer, I suppose clothes will needed for the opposite of they were invented for. Namely, keeping us from burning rather than getting cold.
Now, as it's 1:30 in the morning, I'd best be off.

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Good observation. The ozone layer's thinning is more a reason for more clothes than anything else. Ever seen how some arabs wear those garbs that cover most-everything? That's to protect them from the sun.

@Chibi: Thanks.

shookie said:

we're not exactly going to be around in 90 years. :|

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H-hey! I'm only 17 D'= I MIGHT make it past 100 (Not really. My health is too poor for me to make it past 60. /emo)

Yes, I didn't find this deserving of it's own post. That's why I edited and quoted someone who posted after me.

omg, don't tell me this is going to become a global warming argument now.

All I want to say is, for those of you arguing about "well in 90 years we'll see"...uh...we're not exactly going to be around in 90 years. :|

Oh not global warming. You do know that we are currently in an ice age and the world is supposed to get warmer as we come out of it don't you?

Back on-topic, women breastfeed in public often here. There is a time where her breast is exposed, nipple and all.

FreakyLocz14 said:

Oh not global warming. You do know that we are currently in an ice age and the world is supposed to get warmer as we come out of it don't you?

Back on-topic, women breastfeed in public often here. There is a time where her breast is exposed, nipple and all.

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:|
That's very nice to know. Breastfeed=/=Implications of going topless.

Just for your reference (PkMnTrainer Yellow) my last post and your response to it are here and here respectively. Just for the sake of convenience :)

PkMnTrainer Yellow said:

No, we should not. It astounds me that you can say exactly why that would be a problem and why your argument is flawed and not realize it.

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If my argument is flawed then please give a reason as to why it is, rather than just saying "no, we should not". Like I said, I can't really respond to this comment without knowing what you are referring to but I'll take a stab in the dark here and respond by pointing out that some people feeling uncomfortable with other people walking around without tops on isn't enough reason to ban it.

PkMnTrainer Yellow said:

I don't see where you get off assuming people won't do it, which is the problem at hand, not "everybody".

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But I didn't say that people won't do it..? The point I was trying to make is that because many people are uncomfortable with being topless in public the law change probably won't make much of a difference in the amount of topless people you see. I didn't say it won't happen.

PkMnTrainer Yellow said:

There's a reason for this. And it goes to say that many people would be uncomfortable seeing people walking around topless as a direct result.

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Not necessarily. If the majority of people are uncomfortable walking around topless in public it does not automatically make the majority of people uncomfortable with seeing other people walking around topless in public. I would feel uncomfortable wearing a pair of earrings because they are not typically seen on men (and because I don't like earrings but that's not the point), but that doesn't mean I want to make it illegal for men to wear a pair of earrings.

PkMnTrainer Yellow said:

Good for you, but males shouldn't be compared to females in this discussion. This is one of the cases where they should not be treated equal, as that would be ignorant of differences.

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Why shouldn't they be treated equal? Because women have breasts? What about the women who don't have breasts? Should they be forced to cover up as well, even though it's the same as a man being topless?

PkMnTrainer Yellow said:

Huh? Wait what? How do you figure that??

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I'll repeat what I said in my last post: just because it is legal it doesn't mean every female is going to start going outside topless all of the sudden. You probably wouldn't even notice a change.

PkMnTrainer Yellow said:

I assure you there are thousands of people not comfortable with this.

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There are also thousands of people not comfortable with being around Muslims. Should we ban them as well?

PkMnTrainer Yellow said:

Example is done in private, not public. Poor comparison.

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Okay, new example then. Tattoos. Some people are offended by tattoos and think they are disgusting. Should we strip people of the right to have tattoos on their own body?

I hope you don't mind if I pick you apart instead.

Eliminator Jr. said:

Okay, I have a few points to make here.

1. Women should have the right to walk topless in public. Just because something is legal doesn't mean everybody does it - we're not suddenly going to be bombarded with topless women everywhere we go. This thread is proof enough of that - hardly anybody is actually comfortable walking around topless (heck, I'm male and apart from beaches and nearby shops etc. I'm not comfortable walking around topless either) so it won't be much of a problem. However, just because one person isn't comfortable with it doesn't mean that it should be banned for everyone. Oh hey guys, I'm uncomfortable with realistic violence in video games, let's ban it! [/sarcasm]

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1. Everyone should have the right to have sex in public. Just because something is legal doesn't mean everybody does it - we're not suddenly going to be bombarded with people having sex everywhere we go. This thread is proof enough of that - hardly anybody is actually comfortable with sex in public (heck, I can't stand watching it on TV) so it won't be much of a problem. However, just because one person isn't comfortable with it doesn't mean that it should be banned for everyone. Oh hey guys, I'm uncomfortable with realistic violence in video games, let's ban it!

I hope you saw what I did there. I can do it with a hundred other scenarios. That's a flawed argument.

2. Like another poster has said before me, in the majority of rape cases the rapist knows their victim personally (in other words, they are not strangers). Women walking around topless will inevitably invite pervs to stare at them and some might find themselves the subject of sexist comments, but again I stress that if these people wish to be subjected to this criticism it is their right to do so. -irrelevant analogy- What kind of world do we live in where somebody gets arrested or fined for taking their top off on a hot day?

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If people are going to be harassed...then where's the best interest there? For the staring men? If they're inevitably going to invite perverts and the dregs of society, no one in their right mind would do it. Hence, there should be no law on the subject cause that's a stupid waste of effort and leads to complications when filing against sexual harassment. Like I said earlier, women do not feel oppressed to take off their top. If a woman was hot outside, she's take off her top and BEHOLD. Bikini top. Like I said earlier, bras are there for a reason. And sir, we've been living in the same world we've been living for over 2000 years.

3. Just so you know I'm not taking this point of view because I'm a straight male adolescent. Think about it - make it legal for women to take off their tops in public and there's a chance that you might face walking down the main street of the town you're from and seeing a topless old lady or fat lady, or even your sister or mother topless. Suddenly not so appetising, right? What I'm trying to say is that letting women walk around topless will make me uncomfortable, but despite this I still believe women should have the right to make this decision for themselves.

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You do know there are nude resorts and living areas for people who actually like these things you know. They can all just go there if they want to live that way. And no one is forcing them to live there and they don't feel oppressed- they go because there are like-minded people who also respect the opinion of the overwhelming majority. You don't see them starting a naked revolution.

That's a bit of a generalisation there. Not all boys like it when girls ogle them, nor do all girls hate it when boys ogle them. It can work both ways - your creepy van driver is the same as an aunt's drunk friend at her 50th birthday party who decides to go a little too far with the "what a handsome young boy" comments. Stop being sexist; there are people who like and dislike being ogled for both sexes.

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Sexist? Are you kidding me? Girls and guys are physically and mentally different. God forbid that their social norms are not equal. Men and women *gasp* are not on the same playing field emotionally and physically. There are some things society doesn't want to see or know about and this is one of them. It has way too many connotations and YES, CULTURE behind it.

Chibi-chan said:

I hope you don't mind if I pick you apart instead.

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That's fair enough :)

Chibi-chan said:

I hope you saw what I did there. I can do it with a hundred other scenarios. That's a flawed argument.

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No I didn't quite see what you did there please explain No that's fair enough actually, I was thinking about that counter argument shortly after initially posting. Somebody could have replaced the whole topless thing with further nudity and there goes the argument. I'd have to say I agree with you here.

Chibi-chan said:

If people are going to be harassed...then where's the best interest there? For the staring men? If they're inevitably going to invite perverts and the dregs of society, no one in their right mind would do it. Hence, there should be no law on the subject cause that's a stupid waste of effort and leads to complications when filing against sexual harassment. Like I said earlier, women do not feel oppressed to take off their top. If a woman was hot outside, she's take off her top and BEHOLD. Bikini top. Like I said earlier, bras are there for a reason. -irrelevant comment-

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If people are going to be assaulted for walking down a street notorious for crime late at night...then where's the best interest there? For the shifty drug dealers? If they're inevitably going to invite criminals and the dregs of society, no one in their right mind would do it. Hence, there should...

See what I did there? SEE IT!?? XD (sorry couldn't help it) Nah, it's fair enough, I get where you're coming from. But what I'm saying is that if a woman can sue McDonalds because she spilled her McCafeLatteWhatever and got burns and get a million dollars from it, I'm pretty sure women won't have any trouble suing for sexual harassment even if they have their tops off. I agree no one in their right mind would do it but I still don't think we should be arresting people for it. As for the other comment, you can't make yourself the spokesperson for women. A female earlier in this thread said they had been tempted to go topless because of hot Texas weather, so your comment doesn't apply to everyone.

Chibi-chan said:

You do know there are nude resorts and living areas for people who actually like these things you know. They can all just go there if they want to live that way. And no one is forcing them to live there and they don't feel oppressed- they go because there are like-minded people who also respect the opinion of the overwhelming majority. You don't see them starting a naked revolution.

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I agree with you in a sense, but somebody going off to live in one of these resorts means a severe compromise to lifestyle and career paths, as in you can't be a successful musician or work in the city if you remain in a nude resort. I get where you're coming from but.

Let me just say well done at picking apart my argument, even though I still believe people should be allowed to go topless I don't really have any arguments left to use anymore and no reason to believe this apart from personal opinion. Either way, I don't believe that the other side of the argument (that is, females should be forced to cover up in public) has any arguments aside from personal opinion either, so this topic seems to be just reliant on personal opinion and nothing more. Well, to me, anyway.

But yeah, thanks for posting that, it was nice to have a response that wasn't full of annoying, patronising "but that's not how it works, dear" responses and one that can break down my argument in a matter of paragraphs.

Chibi-chan said:

Sexist? Are you kidding me? Girls and guys are physically and mentally different. God forbid that their social norms are not equal. Men and women *gasp* are not on the same playing field emotionally and physically. There are some things society doesn't want to see or know about and this is one of them. It has way too many connotations and YES, CULTURE behind it.

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Oh please don't say you're one of those people who believe women are more emotionally "deep" than men are or whatever. I don't claim to be emotional but it really irritates me when people make that assumption. Physically, yeah I get you, but you can't make generalisations about sex - every person is different. Believe me, I know a ton of girls who are obsessed with looks and would behave the same way as those boys would in Jolene's post. I know boys who act like that too. But I stand by what I said, it is sexist to assume that because I'm a male I will enjoy being ogled (that's such an awkward word combination, "being ogled". Just thought I'd put that out there XD).

Clothes are the only things keeping people from being useless blobs. Take most of europe for an example. They basically have no rules so they lay around, naked, probably in their own waste.

This reminds me of a video of a spanish nudist girl that get's angry when she has to put clothes on because putting on clothes is too much work. >_< USELESS!!!

Eliminator Jr. said:

If my argument is flawed then please give a reason as to why it is, rather than just saying "no, we should not". Like I said, I can't really respond to this comment without knowing what you are referring to but I'll take a stab in the dark here and respond by pointing out that some people feeling uncomfortable with other people walking around without tops on isn't enough reason to ban it.

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Already did. I pointed out that it's public, and therefore can easily effect the lives of others as with ANY public action of note.

Eliminator Jr. said:

But I didn't say that people won't do it..? The point I was trying to make is that because many people are uncomfortable with being topless in public the law change probably won't make much of a difference in the amount of topless people you see. I didn't say it won't happen.

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But you tried to make it sound like you'd never see it. Thee population is quite large, and your average trip anywhere will take you past plenty of people. That being said, even a low percentage of women doing this would result in you seeing it fairly often.

Eliminator Jr. said:

Not necessarily. If the majority of people are uncomfortable walking around topless in public it does not automatically make the majority of people uncomfortable with seeing other people walking around topless in public. I would feel uncomfortable wearing a pair of earrings because they are not typically seen on men (and because I don't like earrings but that's not the point), but that doesn't mean I want to make it illegal for men to wear a pair of earrings.

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The comparison is rather poor and facts are if you feel uncomfortable about viewing your own breasts in public you are sure as heck not going to be oblivious to other people doing it. I think your answer is a bit out of context. It seems to me you are implying that people are uncomfortable for reasons other than that it's nudity and meant to be private. That was however my point and focus.

Eliminator Jr. said:

Why shouldn't they be treated equal? Because women have breasts? What about the women who don't have breasts? Should they be forced to cover up as well, even though it's the same as a man being topless?

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Yes, they should. It's not different. The size of boobs does not matter as they are still different than a man's chest in that they are organs considered sexual. Whether a man considers the boobs attractive is not relative, and that's all size really is.

Furthermore, yes, they should not be treated equal because women have boobs. inb4 "SEXIST!!!" ... It's not insinuating that either gender is better in either way. It's just a healthy dose of reality.

I feel like because black people are the other famous "minority" people compare sexism to racism, when in fact skin color is only one itsy bitsy tiny difference and gender is a relatively HUGE difference. Like, A THOUSAND TIMES bigger than skin color. (Though, it's still incredibly small in the big picture.) Equality works for blacks because there is literally absolutely no reason to think differently of them in 99.9999999% of cases. This is not the case with men and women.

Eliminator Jr. said:

I'll repeat what I said in my last post: just because it is legal it doesn't mean every female is going to start going outside topless all of the sudden. You probably wouldn't even notice a change.

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See earlier response...

PkMnTrainer Yellow said:

But you tried to make it sound like you'd never see it. Thee population is quite large, and your average trip anywhere will take you past plenty of people. That being said, even a low percentage of women doing this would result in you seeing it fairly often.

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Eliminator Jr. said:

There are also thousands of people not comfortable with being around Muslims. Should we ban them as well?

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This comparison is just... I'm sorry but this is borderline offensive it's so out of context. First of all, that's racial profiling and discrimination. This is public nudity. Like, Seriously! You're comparing an apple and a slab of meat.

Eliminator Jr. said:

Okay, new example then. Tattoos. Some people are offended by tattoos and think they are disgusting. Should we strip people of the right to have tattoos on their own body?

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Our culture has a lot more acceptance for tattoos. I personally am one of the people that find them unattractive. But they themselves are not considered sexual and or revealing in any way. So no, they are also quite different.

Pachy said:

Honestly, your idea is right

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I find your bias offensive =/

Chibi-chan said:

And what woman in their right mind would go around braless? Do you know how much that hurts? There's a reason women wear bras instead of just wearing a t-shirt you know.

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Do you know how bras impede lymphatic flow thorugh mammory tissue? Yes, there is a reason women wear bras- because we are dumb. Breasts are meant to have free range of motion; you should check out some physiological science behind breast health.

Whoever keeps arguing that they are "apathetic" to this topic, yet still feels the urge to heated refutations at people they disagree with, needs to learn the definition of apathy. Here it is- just to clear up some confusion. From Merriam-Webster:

Main Entry: ap·a·thy
Pronunciation: \ˈa-pə-thē\
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek apatheia, from apathēs without feeling, from a- + pathos emotion — more at pathos
Date: 1594
1 : lack of feeling or emotion : impassiveness
2 : lack of interest or concern : indifference

If you are truely dispassionate towards this query, then conjure some logical rebukes. Most people who have argued for pro choice (regarding breast exposure), have called upon anthropology, anatomical science, and history. So far the nay sayers have simply reiterated something along the lines of "Eww, BOOBS ARE GROSS! MOMMMMMY!

Ignorance and immaturaty are not sufficient defenses of an ideology. I know that alot of you are still very young, but c'mon... Lets all be big kids and respect eachother.

Pachy said:

What bias?

Did you notice the post I quoted? I was talking to インフェルノの津波
His ideal about "Shut up and state your opinion" was right. xD

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Oh, well, nevermind. I must have misunderstood you.

Pokeyomom said:

Lets all be big kids and respect eachother.

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Kindly lose the hypocrisy before giving advice.

I love how everyone is a psychic that knows exactly how I feel through the internet. /facedesk
I assure you, if I was ticked off, I would stop posting. I've done it before.

PkMnTrainer Yellow said:

I love how everyone is a psychic that knows exactly how I feel through the internet. /facedesk

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This^ sums it up quite nicely. You have yourself a great evening;)

Lol. I knew this will happen. People will turn into dictionaries etc. to try to prove others is wrong. lol. It's just the internet, in all honesty though some opinions here are... stupid. Which is why I see this thread as a stupid slippery slope thing. (One think leads to another). Did anyone here actually made a valid reason why should women go topless in public?

So, how about we settle down with this striptease thread (didn't they discuss fully naked a few pages ago or something lol) and just forget about it. *ignores urge to point out something*. The thread seems like a huge flamewar. (AKA why are we even discussing those kinda things on a pkmn forum lol)

Rationally, I don't think that would ever be possible with the way society is developed today.

Irrationally, I think my gender sums it all up.

poopnoodle said:

i dont see anyone in here pushing for the law to change immediately as if it will. we know it won't, but i think we're entitled to question society's mindset. i really don't see what's "absolutely disgusting" about some skin and a pair of nipples being shown, and i don't understand why you're setting the guidelines for what's "normal" and what isn't. as rob mentioned several times, exposure to breasts is a perfectly natural and "normal" part of cultures elsewhere, there's no reason it shouldn't be in ours.

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Your argument is based upon a naturalistic fallacy. Just because something is natural does not mean it is right, or in this case, proper. It is an established cultural norm that nudity is unacceptable. And while cultures may be constantly changing, ours has not changed to the point where this is no longer true.

What is normal in other cultures has no bearing on what is normal in ours. I could lecture all day on why I think our culture is flawed and certain things need to be changed, but all of that is irrelevant to my point, as are my personal feelings on the matter. My point is that, given the way our culture currently is, the given proposition is obscene and should not (and would not) be tolerated. It would be, at the very least, distracting to people who are used to a certain level of decency.

As for my personal feelings on the matter (which, again, are irrelevant to my argument), I think that the form and function of much of the human body is disgusting. I think our society has it right in that people are free to do what they want in private but must conform to a certain standard of decency in public. This is the way I believe it should be.