The Amazing Justin
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I like these games. They were the first I played. I only wish it had Johto.
3rd Gen What went wrong with FRLG?
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Cerberus87
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This thread is officially no longer about FRLG being bad but instead about 1st gen re-remakes/sequels.
My biggest gripe with FRLG is the music. They decided to increase the pitch of most of the battle themes, so they're not faithful. They haven't done this in further remakes. The gym leader theme is still good, but the wild battle theme makes me cringe.
But the game, despite being basically the same as RB, is already largely different due to all the generational updates in Pokémon stats, typing and movesets. Charizard is MUCH better in FRLG, Alakazam is MUCH easier to beat, Pidgeot has a usable Flying-type move that's not a 35 BP Wing Attack (although Gust isn't much better)... There are a few Pokémon that are worse, true, but the vast majority is better in FRLG than in RBY. If this was a remake of another series, I doubt we'd see as many mechanics updates. To Betty's credit, I think certain remakes only work with the latest mechanics. In Fire Emblem Shadow Dragon, Nintendo tried to remake the game with the mechanics of the very first FE for the NES and were largely criticized because outdated mechanics should be left in the past. It's why, for example, ports of Sonic the Hedgehog allow you to spindash while the original Genesis one didn't. It may even feel like cheating, because they weren't there in the originals, but it's for the good of the games. Mega Evolution, however, breaks any Pokémon game, and I don't think making ORAS revolve around it was that good... In XY you can get the last stage of the Kanto starter very early, and after that you have a ridiculously powerful Pokémon to crush the opposition with.
It's why fan made games are usually the best, because fans have a lot of different approaches to the game. The Doom community thrived with the source code release because coders did all kinds of cool things with the code. They added mouselook, which wasn't there in the original; they added higher resolutions, fixed bugs... And one, would you believe it, even did an exact port of the classic Doom games that works on Windows, complete with all the bugs, the purest port you could imagine. And all of them are fun. Chocolate Doom is fun because it's the original working on Windows, Risen3D adds a lot of eyecandy and even 3D models, ZDoom improves the engine beyond its capabilities and makes it more "modern", but with few graphic improvements. Your favorite is your choice, really, but it's great that all of them coexist.
Personally I wouldn't want to see a new remake of 1st gen, and I don't think we'll see one, because Origins exists. Yes, it isn't canon, because it's not the game, but I'm sure GF contracted a studio to do it because they wanted to show Kanto with Mega Evolution without making a new game. It has a lot of questionable art and design decisions, but it has its worth as a "what if" scenario. Also, there's not a big commotion for a new remake to happen, like there was with Hoenn. I see more people saying they're bored of Kanto (because, truth be told, Kanto's been in A LOT of the games) than they want a new remake. And Kanto isn't the only region that isn't in 3D... Sinnoh and Johto (and future Kanto) are partially in 3D, but not full 3D. And their 3D is the ugly DS 3D. Also, let's face it, Kanto, though well-designed, isn't really a "nice" region in terms of eyecandy... They'd have to rebuild the region, and then it wouldn't be the Kanto we grew to love anymore... It also wouldn't be Kanto anymore if we added Dark-types and nocturnal Pokémon to the Pokédex.
We just had the opportunity to play through a game with a Kanto starter, so I think a new Kanto remake is pretty low on GF's list of priorities right now, especially in the current gen.
My biggest gripe with FRLG is the music. They decided to increase the pitch of most of the battle themes, so they're not faithful. They haven't done this in further remakes. The gym leader theme is still good, but the wild battle theme makes me cringe.
But the game, despite being basically the same as RB, is already largely different due to all the generational updates in Pokémon stats, typing and movesets. Charizard is MUCH better in FRLG, Alakazam is MUCH easier to beat, Pidgeot has a usable Flying-type move that's not a 35 BP Wing Attack (although Gust isn't much better)... There are a few Pokémon that are worse, true, but the vast majority is better in FRLG than in RBY. If this was a remake of another series, I doubt we'd see as many mechanics updates. To Betty's credit, I think certain remakes only work with the latest mechanics. In Fire Emblem Shadow Dragon, Nintendo tried to remake the game with the mechanics of the very first FE for the NES and were largely criticized because outdated mechanics should be left in the past. It's why, for example, ports of Sonic the Hedgehog allow you to spindash while the original Genesis one didn't. It may even feel like cheating, because they weren't there in the originals, but it's for the good of the games. Mega Evolution, however, breaks any Pokémon game, and I don't think making ORAS revolve around it was that good... In XY you can get the last stage of the Kanto starter very early, and after that you have a ridiculously powerful Pokémon to crush the opposition with.
It's why fan made games are usually the best, because fans have a lot of different approaches to the game. The Doom community thrived with the source code release because coders did all kinds of cool things with the code. They added mouselook, which wasn't there in the original; they added higher resolutions, fixed bugs... And one, would you believe it, even did an exact port of the classic Doom games that works on Windows, complete with all the bugs, the purest port you could imagine. And all of them are fun. Chocolate Doom is fun because it's the original working on Windows, Risen3D adds a lot of eyecandy and even 3D models, ZDoom improves the engine beyond its capabilities and makes it more "modern", but with few graphic improvements. Your favorite is your choice, really, but it's great that all of them coexist.
Personally I wouldn't want to see a new remake of 1st gen, and I don't think we'll see one, because Origins exists. Yes, it isn't canon, because it's not the game, but I'm sure GF contracted a studio to do it because they wanted to show Kanto with Mega Evolution without making a new game. It has a lot of questionable art and design decisions, but it has its worth as a "what if" scenario. Also, there's not a big commotion for a new remake to happen, like there was with Hoenn. I see more people saying they're bored of Kanto (because, truth be told, Kanto's been in A LOT of the games) than they want a new remake. And Kanto isn't the only region that isn't in 3D... Sinnoh and Johto (and future Kanto) are partially in 3D, but not full 3D. And their 3D is the ugly DS 3D. Also, let's face it, Kanto, though well-designed, isn't really a "nice" region in terms of eyecandy... They'd have to rebuild the region, and then it wouldn't be the Kanto we grew to love anymore... It also wouldn't be Kanto anymore if we added Dark-types and nocturnal Pokémon to the Pokédex.
We just had the opportunity to play through a game with a Kanto starter, so I think a new Kanto remake is pretty low on GF's list of priorities right now, especially in the current gen.
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I was trying to emphasize the lack of type balance in Kanto's Dex, not chronicle every single type. :rolleyes2:
The region has too much Poison and Water and not enough Ghost, Dragon, Steel, and Dark... And, FRLG did nothing to fix this.
It's less about graphics (although I'm not a fan of Gen 3's bright, plastic graphics) and more about mechanics. I hate EVs and Natures, and while later games have things like the P/S Split to make up for it, Gen 3 doesn't.
Silktree, I don't know what else to say. I suggested a bunch of fan games, and you dislike every single one of them. What exactly do you want in a game? All I can suggest now is learn how to hack and make your own game. The resources are here, and there's plenty of people who would be willing to help. FireRed, in particular, happens to be a very easy base to work with (lots of tools and tutorials going around), and it's exactly what you'd want to build a Gen 2 sequel off of.
This is something I'm starting to realize and accept, myself--Fans make better Pokémon games than GF. Fans all take different approaches to the games, even when they're making remakes, and the end result is a larger variety of games that don't all follow the same formula (like the main series games do, for the most part).
(Plus, there's also the hard reality that some characters, such as two certain female PCs and two certain E4 members, will probably never be seen or heard from in the main series games again, so for fans of those characters, ROM hacks are all they have.)
How do you know this? I've never read or heard any indication that GF had any kind of direct involvement with Origins.
Either way, I found Origins to be dull and disappointing, in general, so I'd hate for it to be a "substitute" for a modern Gen 1.
"Ugly DS 3D" is still superior to actually ugly GBA graphics. You also forget that all of those games can still be played on a 3DS, while there's absolutely no way to play Gen 1 on one.
So, that means it's okay to just leave the games behind on outdated hardware with outdated graphics?
In a completely different region with a completely different story... No thanks.
Well, if you want a modern Gen 1 right now, fandom has, yet again, come to the rescue. Lightning Yellow isn't actually a hack, but it's a full remake of Yellow in HGSS graphics with later pre/evolutions, Fairy Type, Megas, Day/Night, and Gen 6 battling mechanics. It's not done yet, but it's worth checking out.
Chronosplit
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...What?
I think you mean Fighting and how many things can learn Brick Break/Focus Punch. Steel is awful on the offensive, and speaking of this game Magneton is the only Steel-Type in Kanto (and it has no Steel damage moves until Gen 4). Along with that, Iron Tail>Steel Wing unless you're using a Scizor because it's rare that you'll even find a place to use it. Ghost does far more than Dark in FRLG as no Dark-Types until postgame (and even then it's not many), no Dark TMs that do damage, and the only two to make an appearance at all are Bite and Pursuit with only a couple that can make use of them at all due to Special (Psychic-types and trends of having Sp. Def, Pokemon like Gyarados with low Sp. Attack, etc.).
Speaking of which, what's with the Sludge Bomb TM placement? Regulating the best Poison-Type TM to postgame renders one of the most prominent types of of Kanto all but useless once you think about it.
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Now, that is a legitimate upside to FRLG. Fighting types were pretty weak and useless before Gen 3, and the lack of a strong, reliable Fighting move like Brick Break was a big reason why. Luckily, the region is filled with Normal types and Geodude/Graveler/Onix, so Fighting has some use.
Unfortunately, Ghost isn't nearly as good as it could be thanks to the type being Physical and FRLG's lone Ghost type being a Special attacker. Even worse, most of the things that learn Shadow Ball are also Special attackers (or Poison types). There were really only two great users of the move in FRLG--Snorlax and believe it or not, Flareon (one of the few things it was ever "good" at).
FRLG badly needed a P/S Split.
I forgot about that, but that's pretty awful. They clog the region with all of these Poison types, and yet, only a handful of them are actually any good (basically, just Venusaur and the Nidos... maybe, Gengar if you can deal with the lack of usable STAB).
Cerberus87
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Well, Primeape gets Cross Chop, and Hitmonlee has all the kicks.
Personally I don't mind having only Gengar as an option, because it only really loses to Alakazam and Mewtwo, but the lack of Special Shadow Ball hurts it a lot.
Also, I looked it up and I believe you can only get Shadow Ball from the Game Corner, so it's hard to get it.
Only FRLG? {XD}
The P/S split is the single most important breakthrough in the history of Pokémon. It should've been implemented in Ruby and Sapphire already.
That's not so bad. In my TM-less run of FireRed I had to use things like Absorb Vileplume and Electric-less Jolteon for a large part of the game. {XD} The movepools in 3rd gen were still terrible for the most part (big part of why I hate RSE... NOTHING learns good moves in those games). At least I didn't have to use Gloom for long, because Petal Dance is also in Vileplume's learnset as a level-up move.
Though the Jolteon problem was because GF made the asinine mistake of giving Eevee at L25, like in the originals, which meant you skipped the first elemental attack of the Kanto eeveelutions (Water Gun/Thundershock/Ember). In Red and Blue, they all learned the basic elemental attacks at L31, so it was much easier to train them (and Eevee is the only stone evolution where you must use the stone as soon as possible). Flareon was even worse because there are no easily accessible Fire-type TMs in FRLG until late in the game and in a TM-less run you're stuck with Fire Spin until L52 I think. Well, at least Flareon can use Normal-type moves to great effect, unlike the others, but Vaporeon gets Aurora Beam at L36 while Jolteon gets Pin Missile and Flareon gets Fire Spin.
Well, I was on the VBA and probably should've cheated to get infinite TMs... I also didn't play it legit since I edited Graveler's evolution to be by happiness instead of trade.
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Unown Seer
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They shouldn't bother you as far as completing the story is concerned. They're only an issue in competitive battles.
But countless FRLG hacks do, with Evolution also taking care of the Pokédex diversity that seems to bother you so much. I don't see why you'd rather wait for a Generation I hack.
I think you'll find that most people in the fandom aren't impressed by fan-made games. A good game needs to have a lot of effort put into it from a large staff, and that kind of collaboration is very rare when it comes to fans that don't get paid.
An inspired plot, original elements, new areas (even in an established region), good music and graphics (not just in battles) and, to a lesser extent, decent difficulty.
If I were to create a game, it would be a story-driven adventure game rather than an RPG with battles. So it would require more than hacking.
I don't see evidence of this. How many fan-made games don't revolve around collecting badges? How many of those have good quality?
Cerberus87
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TBH (it's a derail but I remembered it just now), while a game based on Mewtwo would be interesting, Mewtwo itself was never really meant to have any story around it. There are the bits at Pokémon Mansion, true, but those are enough. Mewtwo was meant as a reward for beating the game, nothing more. It was the strongest Pokémon, from the strongest type, which shows GF probably meant for Psychic to be powerful in 1st gen, probably not overpowered, but among the most powerful types, yes. And Mew is just an event Pokémon. It's not that important to the lore anymore, the proof being that Arceus surpassed it in terms of being the Creator, since, while Mew was said to be the originator of all Pokémon, that has effectively been retconned, as Arceus, being the Creator, can't have come from anything else.
Unown Seer
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Enough for you and some people, maybe.
You could say that about any legendary. Even if that is the original intention, there is no reason not to do more with legendaries. I fail to see why Mewtwo should only get an expanded story in other media.
Mew is the ancestor of most Pokémon (presumably with the exception of some or all legendaries, and inorganic Pokémon). Arceus' supposed creation of the universe doesn't change that, considering that it went to sleep and let other Pokémon develop the world and fill it with life.
Cerberus87
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If they really wanted to do that, they wouldn't have added Mewtwo as a bonus in XY with no reason for its presence in Kalos whatsoever.
Since Team Rocket is always looking for the strongest Pokémon, it makes sense that they would try to look for something as powerful as Mewtwo. However, they didn't even try to catch the bird trio themselves, let alone Mewtwo which is even more powerful. They don't go for the beast trio or Ho-Oh/Lugia in GSC either, instead preferring to enhance ordinary Pokémon through science. This tells me that they probably didn't even know about the existence of these Pokémon, and, by extension, didn't believe the legends around them (which are reasonably well-known at least in Ecruteak City), which is weird as even Eusine knows about Suicune and actively pursues it.
Mewtwo was clearly meant as a surprise and a reward for players. No need to have story around it, however interesting it may have been. You could've had Team Rocket looking for it, but the unawareness of these Pokémon is what makes Team Rocket unique, IMO. They probably wouldn't have succeeded in stopping Mewtwo anyway, as, even in the anime, it's Mewtwo who's in control of its situation always, never Team Rocket. As a TR fan, it's a bit difficult for me to admit it, but, compared to other, worse teams, Team Rocket are little more than petty criminals.
Speaking of the birds, they're probably also meant as rewards, too. There's no reason to go to the Power Plant other than to catch Zapdos, for example.
I personally wish that, instead of Mewtwo having an expanded role, Lugia's role as the master of the legendary birds was canonized. Right now, it's only mentioned in the anime. It's a bit sad that the Johto games never alluded to it.
But Arceus is the most important of them all. It created the Pokémon who embody emotions and reason (the lake trio) and the Pokémon that represent reality itself (the creation trio), so Arceus is the most important. It effectively demoted Mew, since I'm pretty sure that, before 4th gen, Mew was believed to have originated all Pokémon, but now we know that the Pokémon responsible for the creation of the world as it is (the creation trio, the lake trio, possibly the weather trio as well, maybe even others) were Arceus' creation, and aren't derived from Mew.
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Unown Seer
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Because XY are the pinnacle of Game Freak's storytelling, right? They barely focused on their own version mascots. Considering Black/White and the more recent Delta Episode, it's clear that Game Freak can do better. But they probably aren't going to focus on Mewtwo outside of Kanto, which is why some of us are interested in a return to that region.
I don't see what this has to do with Mewtwo. Right now it's unrelated to Team Rocket as far as the games are concerned.
You say this as if the two were mutually exclusive.
By your logic, no other legendaries are worth focusing on, and yet Arceus only got a single event over 5 years ago.
Just because some people assumed that Mew created all Pokémon doesn't mean that Arceus has demoted it. Case in point: Arceus only created a few of the legendaries, whereas Mew might have still created most of the other species. This all-or-nothing thinking is pretty weird, honestly.
CoffeeDrink
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We're. . . Talking about Arceus now? I think I need to lie down. I'm going to grab myself a cup of coffee and no longer worry about the whole mess of "I like this, I hate that". Games were made, decisions were had, and it sure didn't involve any one of us.
Unown Seer
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There may be a lot of derailing in this thread, but it's still about what would make Kanto more interesting, which is related to FRLG. I think that most of us (with a few exceptions) can agree that FRLG were fine for their time and that they shouldn't be judged too harshly.
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Crap accuracy and nasty recoil, no thanks. Brick Break is better. :P
Well, another problem with having only one fully-evolved Ghost type in the game is that it forced Agatha to have a terrible mono-Poison team when she was supposed to be a Ghost specialist. That, right there, is a big reason why I wanted newer Pokémon added to the Regional Dex; so certain NPCs wouldn't be stuck with awful teams. (For a comparison, think of Platinum's Dex expansion and how it allowed Flint to have an actual Fire type team. FRLG could've easily done something similar.)
I know. {:3} I wish they had just implemented that to nerf Stall instead of EVs/Natures, IMO.
Yeah, that probably wasn't the greatest idea, giving you Eevee at L25 when you didn't have access to breeding. What made it worse is if you wanted to have a Jolteon with Bite, which meant keeping Eevee until L30. (Vaporeon and Flareon, on the other hand, learned it naturally.) With Jolteon, though, you could, at least, give it Shock Wave for a decent Electric attack until you saved up enough for Thunderbolt. Vaporeon, of course, had Water Pulse and Aurora Beam to hold it over until Surf and Ice Beam. Flareon's two best moves, on the other hand, were both expensive Game Corner prizes... One of many reasons why it was the worst of the three.
Would it have killed them to, at least, put the Move Relearner in Kanto?
Silktree, all I can say is that you're clearly not a fan of Pokémon games, at least not anymore. You constantly complain about the official games (yes you do, admit it), and even more insultingly, you bash and belittle fan made games (and by extension, the talented hackers who made them). It seems like absolutely nothing would satisfy you at this point.
You want a story-driven adventure game that doesn't revolve around collecting badges? There is such a game; it's just not Pokémon. Maybe, you should go find a fansite for that franchise instead of derailing and dragging down threads on Pokémon boards with your constant stream of negativity.
Cerberus87
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Barely focused? They're closely related to the Kalos war, which is integral even to the ORAS storyline. Just because the storytelling in XY was inferior to other games doesn't mean there was less of a focus on its legendaries. The focus was less than in BW but was still significant.
Delta Episode isn't GF doing anything better. Zinnia is getting flack from a lot of people. And it was basically GF saying that none of what happened in the 3rd to 5th gen really mattered, as it's very unlikely they'll go back to the original timeline after Mega Evolution was introduced. They simply can't. They effectively pulled a Dallas with it, and it sucked.
If they did a sequel, Team Rocket wouldn't have anything to do with it. As of HGSS, Team Rocket was finished forever. Of course, it's a different timeline, so they could bring back Team Rocket, and I imagine that, for a game taking place in Kanto, there would be a public outcry if Team Rocket wasn't involved, so it's still worth considering.
They could be, as it's too much story for a single game. Since RSE, Pokémon plots have revolved around an evil team attempting to seize control of legendary Pokémon to do their bidding. It's hard to imagine an evil team having enough resources and manpower to go for both Lugia and Mewtwo, with the birds also involved. Cyrus did it in Platinum, but all of the Pokémon were related to each other, while Lugia and Mewtwo aren't.
If they did this, I'd expect Mewtwo to be a postgame thing. And, like you are more interested in Mewtwo, I'd rather GF expanded on the birds' story with Lugia, canonizing it.
Still, story isn't the only problem of a Kanto sequel. The whole region would need an overhaul. Kanto is the least impressive region in terms of landmarks, since it's mostly industrial-based. And it's not so easy to include new areas in a region that's very, let's say, closely connected. They can't do anything to the west, for example, as Johto is in the west.
I never said that. I said Arceus is the most important in the lore. Which is, of course, not up to debate.
It's not all or nothing. Mew does have an important role as the ancestor of most ordinary Pokémon species. But Arceus is the creator of the whole universe, either by its hand or by proxy, so it sits above Mew in the Pokémon mythology. It's not farfetched to imagine Arceus creating a source of life (Mew), and Mew originating most ordinary Pokémon, considering even in the real world we all ultimately evolved from unicellular organisms.
However, the theory of Mew as an ancestor of all Pokémon has an important hole: it can't learn all the existing moves. Though it's possibly a limitation of the games rather than an oversight.
Arceus is the most important Pokémon in existence, and hasn't starred in a game. There's no need for Mewtwo and Mew to star in a game either. Mewtwo has been in countless movies throughout the generations, it already has enough exposure. They always find a way to stuff Mewtwo in everything, and it gets tiresome, even though Mewtwo is one of my favorite legendaries. And we won't get a Mewtwo game in 6th gen when we can catch it in XY.
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Unown Seer
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I would appreciate it if you didn't tell me what to do. As it happens, I'm familiar with several story-driven games, and they're all better than Zelda in my opinion. I don't derail threads with negative criticism about the games, which is more than I can say for you (just look at what you've been saying about FRLG; you clearly don't care for any game released after Crystal, either, with the possible exception of HGSS which you haven't even played). Also, I happened to enjoy Black/White which aren't all that old, so for the time being, I don't have a reason to give up on the series yet.
You do realize that this wasn't even confirmed, right? It's a logical theory, but Xerneas and Yveltal are only discussed by a random NPC who briefly talks about two other events unrelated to the war.Cerberus87 said:
There was definitely less focus. Lysandre only used the mascot to fuel the Ultimate Weapon, which was the actual highlight (of the war and Lysandre's plan).
Lysandre: "So THIS is the mighty Xerneas/Yveltal?! I expected more from a Pokémon called a legend! You desire help from people? YOU need help from a human? For me, victory is using the ultimate weapon. In order to do that, I need to reclaim the Legendary Pokémon's power and send it to that weapon once again. I'll be taking the Legendary Pokémon back now! This time, I won't lose. I, too, shall use the Mega Ring and Mega Stone that you researched during your travels."
Giovanni is the only prominent Team Rocket character, and many people wanted him to move on from Team Rocket (as that was the most logical explanation for his absence in Generation II). If Giovanni were given a different kind of role, I doubt that there would be a public outcry about that. Genwunners aren't the majority anymore.
Talk about an overexaggeration. Just because Mega Evolution has a major role in the "new" Hoenn doesn't mean that the same goes for other regions, which you should know considering that you see Origins as a replacement for remakes. Anyway, I am not exactly a fan of the Delta Episode, but I see it as a shift in storytelling. It proves that the plot doesn't have to end after the Elite Four.
Considering that Kanto and Johto didn't have such plots to begin with, you shouldn't take it for granted that their sequels would. There are other things Game Freak could do while still making the story more interesting than it was originally.
Not necessarily, but what would be the problem with that? Again, that's how ORAS handle Rayquaza.
Northern Kanto is just waiting to be used.
It isn't about "need". I am not saying that Game Freak will revisit Kanto especially for Mewtwo or Mew, but if they do (and it's quite possible way they will), they should make the most of the regional legendaries. There are only five of them.
When the time comes to revisit Sinnoh, then Game Freak will most likely do something new with Arceus. Meanwhile, it's already being featured in this year's movie, but I don't see you complaining about that.
That's a reason to stop using it in movies. We're discussing the games, in which it has been neglected compared to other legendaries. It got two Mega Evolutions in XY, but there were 28 Mega Evolutions in that game and now 48 in ORAS. Groudon, Kyogre and Mewtwo got more useful boosts and a story to go along with them.
I am not discussing this generation, which is unlikely to see more game releases (but I don't want to discuss that here).
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Like, that's any different from you telling me what to do and making assumptions about me. :rolleyes2:
This thread might have just died out, and we all could've moved on if you didn't barge in here and start forcing your opinions onto people and picking fights. Why did you even come here, anyways? Thought you could get a few more punches in on me?
I left Bulbagarden for many reasons, and you're one of them.
Unown Seer
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Don't flatter yourself. I told you from the get-go that I'm interested in other people's opinions rather than yours, but you didn't get the hint.
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Then, maybe you should've never replied to me in the first place. Whoops. :rolleyes2:
Unown Seer
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I agree. I'll make sure to avoid you from now on.